Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu

Skateboarding (blue) vs Muay Thai (red) 5 years worldwide As to something like Muay Thai dying, because so much of at least Thailand's Muay Thai is dependent on an entire ecosystem of fighting culture and tens of thousands of fights a year, it may not "die", but it may either become indistinguishable from something it is not, like Kickboxing, or worse, could one day become something preserved in kata-like captures, quite divorced from real fights.

Both of these are probably true. If it's a tourist-y gym, probably much more the later. You can write a very respectful email and apologize, thank them very much (if they read English well), and let them know how much you appreciate them. This kind of message can go a long way, though in email, I'm not sure it would matter. In short, the best thing in circumstances is to just communicate your respect.

Sounds like it could screw up your visa. If you are concerned about that you are probably stuck. If you arranged with them to go there long term, they vouched for you, and you have been there before, it would seem like a few extra tourists isn't too much to push through. But...this is why I almost always suggest not making long term arrangements with gyms in Thailand. Gyms always are changing, even good ones.

This is one of the dilemmas of what we are thinking about. Muay Thai is actually dying off, in a way, in Thailand. It no longer is the case where we can just insulate, and not worry about whatever versions of Muay Thai are out there in the world because Muay Thai is safe and sound in Thailand, thriving. Like you say, MAX, Superchamp, or whatever other hybrid show in the country are powerfully undermining and in fact erasing much of what Muay Thai is, in Thailand. There seems to be some sense in which non-Thais might play an important role in actually preserve Muay Thai, as passionately interesting outsiders...simply because they care about Muay Thai, in a historical sense, while the Thai marketplace really doesn't. It's westerners who attend these large Muay Boran, or Nai Khanomtom Day respect events (whatever we make of them), not Thais. The question is: What role do westerners, or just non-Thais, have in preserving Muay Thai...and are their modes of popularity that could work towards its care.

I would suggest you move around. Pick out 3 prospective gyms from what you find online. Then go to each gym at least once, so you can feel the vibe, how comfortable you are. Compare them. Then pick the best of those 3, and revise your opinion several weeks in. Because you want the cost to be low, but lots of other bonuses, it's probably going to be hard to find Baby Bear on this.

Oiii. This really hit me hard, as an American. In terms of digital search footprint in the United States Muay Thai is essentially Krav Maga, which is really incredible...and disappointing. In the last 3 years Krav Maga has slipping in popularity, but in terms of overall level of popularity, surprisingly, not that much difference.

Popping in to update some of the data, as I've been following this for 5 years now. BJJ vs Muay Thai World Wide, holding steady since BJJ surpassed Muay Thai in the Winter of 2018 In the United States, the separation is holding The argument goes that BJJ is a pretty interesting sport comparison as both it and Muay Thai are niche fighting disciplines parasitic on the UFC and MMA in general, which both require specialized knowledge with some sense of cultural celebration of origin.

These are all beautiful things. I only took issue with the assumed obviousness by which Lethwei claimed superiority and antecedence to Muay Thai. These things don't seem obvious to me at all, and kind of loaded questions. I do seriously appreciate how firmly you are on the ground on this, how close to the sport and training that you are, and that you took the effort to post such a very cool photo and message. It's so cool that you are throwing yourself into Lethwei, and experiencing it first hand. No need to edit at all! Discussion is good. I find much of the Lethwei messaging problematic on some of the levels I've mentioned, and kind of push back on it when I can, only because nobody seems to be doing so, and it feels important. *I only edited your title because we try to have titles that capture the main subjects under discussion, it helps people know what's in a post, so I added a few keywords.

All this is to say, the beautiful story of your trainer is just that, real human beauty. Awesome that you shared it. Such real stuff. But some of the couching of the story, in the larger framework of Lethwei vs Muay Thai for me really is missing some important aspects.

I don't really Google these things, but to be honest much of this "purer" than Muay Thai story seems very ideological, the attempt to lay claim to some forms of supremacy over the Muay Thai of Thailand. First is the claim that it is more brutal (ok, they allow headbutts or KO recoveries, not something you could probably allow in a country with 50,000 fights a year like Thailand), second the claim that is older in some way (I've never really seen an historical evidence that it is the origin), and I can't really take what LeDuc says seriously. He is a pretty much made up media brand image, to be honest about it. I love how successful he is at what he's done, but he really was a Tiger Muay Thai reality show winner before becoming the best Lethwei fighter in the world not long after, and spokesperson for the sport. A more serious question, at least for me, is how much Lethwei is being used as a political tool, perhaps a part of a Sportswashing effort in a country facing some pretty serious human rights violations. It seems clear that LeDuc is being supplemented by the Myanmar government, I mean, his wedding was broadcast on National TV apparently. He's basically a political figure, making political points, but in ways that we from the west have almost no sensitivity toward. I'm not saying that Muay Thai is not used politically in Thailand, it definitely IS, and has been for a century if not longer, but because of that ideological dimension we probably should step carefully regarding a historic foe claiming superiority over the very same politicized element. I don't really know where this claim flows from. The 2nd oldest historical evidence of Muay Thai is the fabled story of Nai Khanom Tom (late 18th century), in a handful of verse lines in an epic poem, telling of how - I'm sure you know the story - he cleaned up against a host of the best Burmese fighters. I'm pretty sure, and it's been a while since I read the source material translation, this story is from a Burmese epic, told by the Burmese, not the Thai. It would seem weird to think that Lethwei, historically, somehow supersedes Muay Thai in a fundamentally important way. But...I definitely would be open to any historical evidence.

There is a seriously long, as in centuries long, political animosity between these two countries, intense hatred, and the symbolism of Muay Thai as a national identity and pride plays a really important part of this. It isn't just "some people", its generations of belief. Where do you get this story of origin, I'm curious? My suspicion is that claims like this tend to be ideological in basis.

That seems pretty difficult. The best thing would be to just contact them through their Facebook Pages and see if they are willing to accept payment, and then take a trip down to the post office. It might require incentivizing them with a fee. It's kind of a hassle to go to the post office.

There are a few things that are involved. The first may be that you have to keep in mind that Muay Thai evolved from rope bound fighting, where by report fights lasted very short periods of time, knock out or nothing, because they were basically barefisted. When hands were padded, this lengthened fights. I suspect that padding a part of the body devalued it. You are hitting someone with bare shin bones, or with padded hands. You can understand why the padded part might be devalued. Yes, if you rock someone, punches definitely count. But if you are just touching them stiffly, then nothing much. Punches need to have impact. Another element of this is that it is my theory that Thais and westerners map the body very differently. In the west we picture the head as the center of the self. Anything that strikes the head, even lightly, feels like it is hitting the very identity of a person. In Thailand you have a much more Old World conception of the body, something you see in traditional cultures, like those of Ancient Greece. In this view the "Gut" is a major center of self. In English we still have the vestigial belief in phrases like "gut check" or "I could feel it in my gut". For Thais, I believe, strikes to the gut, especially by kicks and knees, just FEEL like they are hitting the center of a person, more than they do in the west. Striking their vitality. In the traditional view of the body, the gut, the spleen, was a core of the self. Yes, the face also holds a symbolic sense of identity, but it is not the same as in the west. And lastly, I suspect that because so much of Muay Thai striking is geared toward kicks (and knees) to the body, and because this centerline is very well defended, there is a kind of "capture the flag" aspect to this. If you are able to penetrate defenses, and nail the mid-section, you are really showing skill and control over the fighting space, something that was quite appreciated in the Golden Age. Control over the fighting space was the art of Muay Thai. I suspect punching people in the face (or for that matter, low kicking them, which also ends fights) was considered low-hanging fruit. These are relatively easy strikes to be had. The Muay Thai of the age was really about pushing the technical limits of attack and defense.

I'm not really sure it would have a noticeable impact, but, given that it's a very light pain medication, perhaps worth taking preventively before a fight, maybe this small other additional effect could take the edge off a little?

Sylvie's Muay Thai vocabulary post, which can be helpful: Muay Thai Vocabulary | Understanding Your Thai Trainer

Ha. I'm sorry, I really blanked out on that possibility pretty much altogether in my original answer. We're in Thailand, that is just a different world. My bad.

I'm not usually interested in the chemical ways that the fighting experience can be enhanced or improved upon, but I found this 2016 study that Tylenol dampens one's empathy towards the pain of others provocative. It was not only the physical pain of others, but also their social pain. "From painkiller to empathy killer: acetaminophen (paracetamol) reduces empathy for pain" (2016). The effect was not pronounced, this interview on the subject suggests maybe a 10% reduction: "Researchers Examine Why Tylenol Affects Empathy" (2016) (the study seems to indicate something along the lines of 5-8% maybe), but it does present a really interesting side-effect for a very common over the counter drug. I can't imagine that experienced fighters would benefit much from this as overcoming the psychological impact of the potential pain of others is a large part of developing as a fighter, but it does make some sense that 2 Tylenol might be worth taking if you are having a first fight, or even a fight in the first 10. Maybe that 10% difference in empathy threshold could mean something to you. (Note: even though it is an over the counter drug Tylenol in larger doses can wreck your liver and even be life threatening. This is not something you want to pound.) The idea might be to dull your own pain, a bit, and your sensitivity to the pain of others. It's super interesting that some of the theorizing about why a drug might reduce both involves the way that pain is modeled, that there is some sense in which the mechanism by which we feel our own pain is also involved in our feeling for, virtually experiencing, the pain of others. While people who are drawn to fighting often imagine that there shouldn't be an issue here, there really can be lots of difficulty in not only hurting others, but also the humiliation given to them by making them look bad, or giving a loss. Sure, lots of fighters can take on hyper-aggressive persona which act like they don't care, but underappreciated is that many people who are drawn to fighting are quite sensitive, and many are wounded themselves. The ability to negotiate the domination of others, the hurting of others, can involve a great deal of personal development. Could Tylenol, in some cases, help ease that development? It's at least worth thinking about.

You can do other things to keep the intensity on the pads with smaller holders. Stay close, keep your hands on the pads, increase the tempo, pressure in ways that aren't pure power. (I'm saying this as if we are talking about Thai style pads, not where other students are holding for you, as happens in the west, not knowing your situation).

I don't think it is a dumb question at all. I remember Sylvie training with the legend Kaensak who described the purpose of padwork as "charging the battery", which is probably how it was used in the Golden Age of Muay Thai when he reigned. It was pure power, tempo and fatigue, priming you for a fight. You had already developed your technique since youth. This older purpose of padwork comes into direct contrast with the western preoccupation with Thai cleanness of technique, and with padwork itself. A padman, generally, in Thailand, is just a worker, someone pushing the fighters physically. Not some elevated teacher (in most cases). Holding pads of someone is just doing work. In the west though it is used to teach technique, put to a different purpose. So it really depends where you fall on the spectrum. Generally though, you should be really pushing it on the pads, developing your ability to hold your technique, your tempo, your balance, even though fatigue. Padwork is exposing you to fight fatigue pressure and pushing you through ideal responses, I think.

Steroids are pretty plentiful and available, and some people use Thailand trips to cycle onto them on a regular basis. You can find lots of articles like this one from 2013 about this: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-05-30/bodybuilder-gives-insight-into-thailand-steroid-holidays/4723980 Given these patterns, and also that lots of retired men come to Thailand for hormone replacement therapy, it's just going to be present and prevent. I say this without every running into it directly in a gym, but it just is something you have to assume is out there, and part of some people's preoccupation, both in and out of Muay Thai. There is very little to no drug testing in Muay Thai in Thailand (I'd say zero, but maybe there are some rare instances.) If this is making you nervous about fighting I don't think it should be a determining factor. Just assume the fighter might have some advantages that you need to counter, and trust your gym to find your a fair match up that they believe you can fight well in. Having trust in your gym, and their knowledge of opponents is more important than drug testing, I believe.

It seems pretty hard to tell anything about a gym from a website. Why not go in for a class and see how you feel about it?

Haven't been around that area for a while, but North Jersey Muay Thai has been a very stable, pretty technical gym for a very long time.

One of the great performances ever by Attachai vs Namsaknoi. The 3rd round when he pulls away in the fight is just surreal. He's facing a yodmuay who clearly has a weight and height advantage, and is known for his ability to finish off opponents in the clinch after more femeu openings. Namsaknoi has talked about how he wasn't able to make weight for this fight and had to give up his fight purse. He's also talked about how fighting southpaws caused him trouble because it takes away his lead leg body kick to the open side. It seems pretty clear that the gamblers made this a draw. You can see Attachai surprised and confused in the final stretch of the 5th round when suddenly he seems told he should go and score. The biggest pleasure of this fight, and I'm not even a Muay Femeu fan, is how Attachai negates the otherwise unstoppable progression of Namsaknoi from Muay Femeu to Muay Khao in fights. Check out his fight vs Saenchai another southpaw elite fighter, who was even smaller, to see what he can do with his size. He was a next-gen Namkabuan who also could fight Femeu, and then in the 4th round could overpower his opponents in the clinch, combining both styles. The fact that Namsaknoi had size, and everyone knows that he is coming to put his size on Attachai, you can see it happening but that it fails to be dominant, is what puts this fight in Attachai's column. Part of fights is understanding the expectation, and seeing whether a fighter can execute the game that is promised. The 3 trips by Attachai to start out the 4th round are crazy impactful. You just don't do that to Namsaknoi. What an underrated fighter. Namsaknoi has counted this as his hardest fight in interviews.