Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu

Very, very much so. The Homeric depictions of warfare, characterizations of figures and personae fit very closely with what I intuit here. And the Ancient Greek concept of Thymos (which you sound like you would be familiar with, but for others this is a pretty decent breakdown of) I think presents a very productive mapping point between Thai traditional Self and maybe traditional/archaic western Self. I think for the Thai (ideally) and for the Homeric Self/ves, you have an affective self, but also the privileging of external "face" or appearance as Real. Not sure if you know the work of Giambattista Vico, but his notions of pictorial language, or the realism of figuration, at least for me, helps decode Thai sensibility toward performance, and Ruup. In Thailand's Muay Thai you have the regulation of the passions through affective balancing (Buddhistic) and symbolic presentation, instead of turning all those passions over to the rule of the Cartesian Subject.

It think this is something I put forward, and I think I kind of disagree a little with Sylvie's take here. I definitely put forward that we are talking about centers of the Self, which may not be Buddhistic in concept (ie, you would not teach "this is where the Self is"). I am describing where people in a culture locate the sense of Self, and this is reflected in the way a combat sport is scored, I argue. When you slap someone in the face, you are in a way "striking their Self". The face represents the Self in many symbolic ways, varying between cultures. A slap in the face with feel like it is insulting or injuring the Self differently in Japan than it will in Saudi Arabia than in California (I suspect), also depending on who is watching. And in the 18th century, perhaps much more so. It's not wrong to say that the Self is in some regards located in or on the Face. It's where we get phrases like "losing face" or "gaining face". There are other locations of the Self. The Heart for instance is widely regarded as a Self center point. Punches to the heart don't really seem to mean that much, but spikes driving through the heart, for vampires for instance, are seen as penetrating the core "Self" of the monster or person. And of course pangs in the heart, "heartaches" are some of the firmest centers of Self we talk about. I assume that this also varies between cultures. We have other centers of Self like the brain, or the head. Cutting off someone's head is in a way severing their Self from the rest (the face is up there too). But all this is to say is that in the arrays of Self centers, it strikes me that the Thais retain a more traditional location of Self in the gut. In English we have things like "gut feeling" and "you've got a lot of guts!", but traditionally this center of the Self in the gut, the spleen, was much stronger. In Ancient Greece this was a very strong location of Self (not the only one, but a core are vital one). My arguments about Thai Muay Thai scoring are that knees and kicks to the torso score higher because they culturally are read as hitting the Self, and injuring or weakening it. And that this is a traditional way of looking at the body. And that Thai audiences literally, affectively, experience such hits much more powerfully. They can "feel" the blows there in a way probably westerners don't. In the West it seems that these senses of Selves have migrated higher. We've lost the gut center more or less (a good gut punch and double over will still mean something severe, but on a daily basis we don't deposit our Self there much), and experience our Selves much higher. In the heart sometimes, but almost always in the head. We in the west lead with our head. And, it corresponds, it's why blows to the head and face (hey, we have a whole app that rules the world called Facebook), are scored so highly. We empathetically connect to fighters, and as audience experience blows or even touches to the head with more impact. I think we've lost some of the body mapping that allows Thais to experience lower torso strikes as much more substantive. At least that's my thinking on it.

Yes, this is quite different than what I'm talking about. This isn't really the gendered, vestigial grouping of words for things in the world. This is the declaration of your own gender, after every sentence or extended expression, through a polite particle. It is a constant, and some might say continuous political act embedded in the very act of speaking. It is repeated over and over and over, positioning the speaker. I don't have links for this, it's just something I've come upon in my reading. You can search for papers around the term "semi-colony" or I believe "self-civilizing" for discussions about Thailand's move to western modernity. As to the polite particle, I can't recall where I read that this use was a modern invention. Several papers discuss that the visual distinction between the genders was part of the modernization of Thailand (according to Western values), in fact there were laws passed during dictatorship which pressured this change. Siamese/Thais were basically forced to dress like "men" and "women" in a western fashion, as part of the modernization of the Nation. What is interesting is that the past has a way of reshaping itself before our eyes. When we come to Thailand we have the very distinct sense that we are witnessing something uber "Thai" when we encounter these gendered distinctions; it feels "classical", or extremely traditional, and in a sense it is. But what we don't sense is that this is in many ways just a reflection of ourselves, as the West exerted itself on the region.

One of the most interesting things for those interested in Thailand's Muay Thai is how Muay Thai itself is a highly stylized expression of Muay Thai, or what some call hypermasculinity. One of the more striking things about Thai language for those first learning it, coming from the west, is how speakers end speech with a gendered polite particle, ka or krop, basically positioning the speaker, as gendered in an almost constant process of self-declaration. This performed division of the genders may even have helped give rise to the very notions of gender fluidity that allow trans persons to simply adopt the particle of the trans- gender they are moving toward. In this sense Thailand is both rather rigid, and also fluid. But, this is really what I'm writing about here. This gendered division, along with very hyperstylized versions of gender both feminine and masculine, is thought to not even really BE Thai, at least in a certain dimension of analysis. The stark distinctions between genders is thought to have arisen in the early part of the 19th century when Thailand (then Siam) faced extraordinary pressure from the west to "self-civilize"). In otherwords, "you better become a lot more like US, or you will get colonized (ie, civilized)". The division of the genders both visually (gendered dress was government imposed in the periods that followed), and also in terms of speech (I believe the imposition of these gendered particles) came from this somewhat radical, and also Thai-flavored adoption of western gender values, with those Victorian roots. Of note, this self-civilization also is what likely brought about the adoption of gloves in Muay Thai (then simply Muay). So, when you say "ka" or "krop" at the end of a Thai sentence, you are also reliving the forces that also gloved the hands of Thailand's boxers.

When reaching back into the near-mythical origins of a martial art I think we have to also be aware that there are often ideological considerations, especially when countries each claim to be the "true origin" of a martial art or fighting style. There have been attempts to frame Thailand's Muay Thai as either Burmese in origin, or Lao (or their precursor). This battle over who is the source, especially in the absence of substantive documentation, always struck me as dubious. I mention this, as my own points of focus. I find this ideological framing of a martial art's history super interesting. Thailand itself has over the last century spent a lot of effort into framing it's own origin stories for Muay Thai, battles that go on today.

I'm really interested in this as well. I wish I knew more about California in particular, other than that there was something of a Thai instruction migration/s and that it held its own political power, coaching trees that seem to have claimed some kind of "authenticity" from that migration, and also the sense that community others have pushed back against this "Thainess", embracing a much more kickboxing, or boxing oriented methodology, and an opposition to California Thai Muay Thai. This tension feels (from a distance) like something that is essentially Californian in its Muay Thai. Perhaps I am imagining it, but from very far away, from the loose stories that I've heard over the years, it feels like there is a great divide there, in the unfolding of pedagogy. In general though, the specific pedagogic trees in any country, city, etc, are super interesting, because knowledge and practices from from those narrow trees, every and always cutting off the richness of Thailand's Muay Thai, if only for business purposes, or practical means of teaching western students. It's like trying to fit the Amazon rain forest in an aquarium.

It's such a good fight, with so many variables, styles, differences.

This was a huge fight, though we didn't know it at the time, just an average run-of-the-mill Hua Hin scrap (Sylvie's actually faced several world class fighters in this town). They tried a bit to sandbag Sylvie with a fighter who was about to burst onto the scene in Thailand (obscuring her details, it happens sometimes). Honestly we had never heard of her, but damn such a quality fighter. A couple of months later after a few very prominent wins Pornphan would be ranked #1 by the WBC two (actually it properly should be 3) weight classes above Sylvie. Such a close fight, but Sylvie beating the #1 ranked fighter at Flyweight giving up tons of weight. Maybe 7 kgs here? More on the WBC rankings here. Fight with Sylvie's commentary, then my live commentary.

I don't know the Phuket scene, but Chiang Mai has had some pretty regular fights and lots of stadia. It does depend on your weight (matchups are geared by weight, usually, and Thais are physically smaller). But a gym like Hongthong or Lanna Muay Thai would probably give a serious student who trains hard fights. High volume? I'm not really sure about that. It depends on skill level, how much the fight scene has tapered off due to corona virus, and your size and attitude in the gym.

That is really cool, and what rankings should be kind of about. Setting paths and perspectives.

I mean, orgs sometimes make p4p rankings to generate excitement, so I guess there could be that, but that is not necessary. But in Sylvie's case, if you have beaten the #1 ranked fighter 2 weight classes up, you probably shouldn't be ranked #3 in your own weight class... Being able to beat bigger, ranked opponents is a sign of skill and dominance. I don't really blame the WBC though, it's almost impossible to keep track of so many fights. I'm sure nobody knew that she had beaten the #2 fighter in her own division either.

Wow, thanks for the fill in! Exactly what I was hoping to hear. Seems like they peppered in some notable names from the past in some of these divisions, which I suppose is to be expected when a ranking first begins. This is a hard division. Sofia is definitely a top fighter on anyone's P4P list. So yes. And I've mentioned my appreciation for Dokmaibaa and Alma. Zaza, honestly, is just a big name from the distant past. She hasn't beaten anyone top ranked, who actually weighs the same, in a very, very long time, as as I know. You can see in this fight between her in Alma 1.5 years ago the huge distance between them in skill and readiness (watch it here): Zaza is much more a "name" that derived from her attractiveness and her early World Title at the age of 14, a long time ago. It's just my opinion, she's a tough fighter, but isn't really a World Class fighter at this weight. She also lost to a much, much smaller Lisa Brierly who is ranked #3 at only 49 kg, several weight classes down. Hey, every ranking probably needs names and figures, and given that the rankings for this division have a vacant spot, maybe they were happy to put her on there. As to Chommanee? Oi. Literally one of the best female Muay Thai fighters in the world a few years ago, had mixed success in Glory kickboxing. But the real truth about her is that she probably hardly trains. I mean, she likely trains before fights, but I think she's just one of these very top Thais who really does not stay in regular training. It's one of the hardest things of ranking top Thai fighters. In terms of talent and skill, they are 9s or 10s. In terms of calluses and fight-shape, sometimes 3s or 4s. They've been fighting since they are like 8 years old, so it is in a way understandable that their drive into their mid-twenties just isn't the same. I mean, she deserves to be ranked, but who knows how much. I just don't know the European fighters high up on the Featherweight list. Sawsing is caught somewhat in the same boat as Chommanee. I means, she's much more fight ready since she's taken on the Superchamp promotion responsibilities in Thailand, and of course beautifully skilled from years of competition, but it's unclear if she's growing as a fighter. I'm ok with her at #4, though if she were fighting a lot, and in the gym all the time, I could see her beating anyone in her weight class in full rules Muay Thai, in the world. She really is an excellent fighter.

With the help of Dave Jones who is helping us all with tech support and design, kind of sponsoring Sylvie through his efforts, we've been able to relaunch the Store on Sylvie's 8limbsus site, and have started filling it with some awesome stuff. You can find it here: Sylvie Store. You'll find not only Sylvie shirts and shorts (which help raise money for the Kru Fund, but also Karuhat merchandise that goes completely to supporting him, and other awesome stuff like the first documentary made on Sylvie. Time to check it out.

Patreon just keeps getting better. One of the difficulties with Patreon was that Sylvie just had so much post. This is a good thing, but scrolling through looking for stuff was a pain. Patreon has now added a Search Bar so titles can be searched for by keyword. And, the Table of Contents of the Library is now pinned to the top of the Posts Tab, which you can find here. It all looks like this: You can also see that there are also tags for searching through the vast material. Always getting better. Here is a screenshot of the Sylvie Study Intensive as well:

That is going to be the bloody-hell hard part. There are just so many rates of change. And information funnels through very specific channels (how could it not). I can't imagine the process that could keep this updated across continents, but damn it's impressive that they are trying. I was a pretty big fan of the lower-weight WPMF rankings, until I realized that they just adjusted the top fighters when there was a fight for a belt, and left the rest unchanged, like forever.

Sylvie's list of recommended gyms: It's probably best to go to a thriving gym with lots of westerners training, a place like Hongthong Muay Thai in Chiang Mai (which still has fighting opportunities), or if you like something smaller, Manop's Gym in Chiang Mai. If you want to fight Chiang Mai is a solid place because there are so many stadia, and unless you are very large they should be able to match you up, if you express a desire to fight.

It's still up, it's just not showing in certain countries. It's just the announcer including Sylvie's name in a list of opponents Stamp has had wins against.

I will say that it is pretty cool to see Janet up there, very well deserved.

Yeah, but it was a kickboxing rules fight. Stamp won the Muay Thai matchup, so it makes sense that she would have the edge - though ONE judging is wonk in general it seems, so I never know how to take those fights.

Other interesting, or possibly questioned rankings are Lommanee at #1 at 108 lbs. I've ranked Lommannee very high, as high as being possibly the best in the world,, at some point. But she had a huge showdown fight vs Amy Pirnie, and lost. And then fought a kickboxing fight in Japan against someone distinctly smaller, and only came away with a draw. She hasn't had a big win against elite talent in a long while, so it is is maybe hard to put her at #1. This being said, she, like Loma, has been the Queen of her weight class for a long time, so maybe deserves to start out there. Also, poor Amy Pirnie. She beat Lommanee in a big fight and kind of didn't get a lot of recognition for it. She has such explosive, beautiful Muay, but is only ranked #4 at 112 lbs. If I had to put my money down, I might take Amy against anyone in that division. I LOVE seeing Dokmaibaa ranked #2 at 118 lbs. It's just amazing to see a talent like her recognized. And it's very cool to see Alma at #3 right behind her. That would just be a great fight to see right now. Two female fighters as good as you might want, right next to each other in the rankings.

. Because we all come from this from our own little fishbowl - even though Sylvie's fishbowl is larger than many others, it's still a fishbowl - the most interesting thing to me is the 105 lb division. 105 is the lowest weight the WBC can go at this point, but several of the fighters there are actually 100 lb fighters properly. #1 Loma reigned as the best 100 lb fighter for many years. #2 Gulapdam, I believe, holds the 105 lb WPMF title, but she legit is more a 100 lb fighter. #3 Sylvie walks around lighter than 105 lb, and could fight below 100 lbs. #4 Faa Chiangrai definitely is a 100 lb fighter. #5 Duangdaonoi historically had been able to reach 100, I'm not sure about now. I don't know #6. It's safe to say, almost the entire ranked division is more a 100 lb division, which is pretty cool. That means that there is some serious 100 lb talent out there in the world. As to the rankings themselves, there are a few question marks. The first of course is Loma, who definitely deserves the respect for her years of high level supremacy. She was unequaled. But...she doesn't seem to be fighting Muay Thai any longer. Her last big fight, that I recall, was a disappointing loss in an early round at IFMA, but most importantly, she says she walks around now at around 57 kg (125 lbs), and has expressed an earnest desire to put on even more weight. She's had to almost entirely change her body just so she can compete at UFC straw weight, which has some VERY big fighters. She really, as a fighter, isn't close to being able to compete in her former stomping grounds. And, given that her career path is in MMA, she really lacks financial incentive to do so. This isn't something to hold against her. But...how long would she properly be thought of as a 105 lb fighter? It might be better to think of her as one of the best 112 lb Muay Thai fighters in the world? Maybe at some point. Be that as it may, her beautiful superiority at 100 lbs for so long really does grant her leeway in this. She deserves to start out as Queen on top. How long she remains there in an up to date ranking is another question. As to #2 Gulapdam, the only quibble I would have is that the one time Gulapdam and Sylvie fought, a few years ago, Sylvie really owned that fight in a pretty distinct way (TKO, if I recall, with Gulapdam's corner throwing in the towel). So clear was the win that we really got the sense that a rematch wasn't something of interest at all to her camp. After that fight whenever a match up with her representative in the North was booked it wasn't Gulapdam who Sylvie faced, but rather the much larger and super skilled Thanonchanok (#3 at 112, above). it's actually a really good tough match up. Sylvie at 100 lbs was being booked vs a 112 lb champion, instead of the more natural 100 lb Gulapdam, by the gym that handled both fighters. You can see Sylvie pretty much overwhelming Gulapdam, a couple of years ago, here (Sylvie Petchrungruang vs Kulapdam Por Muangphet). No doubt both fighters have improved since then. I'll also say that Gulapdam is one of Sylvie's favorite fighters, and a really under recognized talent. It is very cool for her to be up at #2, I'm pretty happy with that. As to #3, Sylvie. Well, it's Sylvie. I'm always of two minds on Sylvie in rankings. I'd prefer, all things being equal, for Sylvie just not be in the rankings. I like her to be an underground fighter because her progress is one of those incredible slow burns. And being ignored or underhyped actually is what is best for the long term process. Hyped fighters end up not fighting very frequently at all in Thailand. On the other hand, just thinking about Sylvie's position in the 105 lb rankings, making her case, something has to be said about all of her success fighting WAY up in weight, in fact multiple weight classes up, something no one does to the degree that she does. Point in fact, the WBC #1 ranked 112 lb fighter Pornphan, who is tearing up Thailand right now, lost to Sylvie about 2 months ago. You can see that fight below: So you have the #3 ranked WBC 105 lb fighter beating the #1 ranked 112 lb fighter It was a close fight, and little publicized, but damn. Going up two weight classes to fight the best there, and winning, that's a notch in your belt, especially as a 100 lb fighter. This being said, Pornphan an awesome fighter, and huge props to the WBC for recognizing a rising talent like her. These are exactly the kinds of Thai fighters that are hard to pick up on your radar, from afar. In Thailand fighters like this just shoot up. Extremely complete fighters, full of experience and skill at every range. Sylvie's a difficult fighter to rank at 105 because she's had so much success fighting up. She pretty much controlled the currently ranked #2 fighter at 108 lbs, Rungnapa, when they fought a series of fights a few years ago, beating her 3 of 4 times despite giving up the weight. Sylvie's has beat the much respected #3 ranked 112 lb fighter Thanonchanok twice, once just 6 weeks before Thanonchanok flew to Japan to win a World Title, despite the weight (though Sylvie has lost the series between them). And she fought Wondergirl Fairtex, the #1 115 lb fighter in the rankings, in a very close fight that many in attendance thought Sylvie had won. You can see that fight here: Sylvie Petchrungruang vs Wondergirl Fairtex. Notably, Faa Chiang Rai ended up beating Wondergirl in that tournament, also giving up big weight. What is insane about Sylvie is how much she's fought the top fighters in weight classes so far above her, all the way up to ranked 118 lb fighters. #4 Faa Chiangrai. Yes, just a wonderful fighter. Sylvie and she have faced off several times. Sylvie took the edge beating her 3x in a month, and winning the Northern 105 lb belt in her hometown of Chiang Rai a few years ago. But...she has really improved, and has frankly been on the short end of some high profile international fights. She deserved to win vs Saya Ito for the 100 lb WPMF belt (I believe), and was kind of hometowned in that fight. She properly is a world champion, maybe several times over. #5 Duangdaonoi. Properly recognized. She too could probably fight at 100 lbs. Had a rough time defending her WPMF 105 lb belt in Japan where she was just overmatched in size, a few years ago. Has had some success in boxing. I believe won a title. Sylvie and she had a very memorable fight a few years ago. Sylvie kind of ragdolled her, winning, but Duangdaonoi opened up a huge cut on Sylvie in a very bloody end. #6 Saray Medina. We live in Thailand so haven't been as exposed to western fighters at this weight. I'm not familiar, so this is really on my ignorance. maybe the Belarusian fighter Alena Liashkevitch who has beaten Loma in IFMAs at 45 kg deserves to be on the list...if she is still fighting?

Let me just say, there has been perhaps no bigger setback for female Muay Thai than the lack of serious, regularly updated, multi-national, truly "world" level rankings. The WPMF site was trying hard many years ago, but it was drawing from a very small knowledge base, and it was practically impossible to keep up to date, especially given the shifting sands of Thailand's fighting. Lots of fighting. Finally they just gave up with the difficult endeavor. So the new WBC rankings are, right from the start, a huge leap for pretty much everyone. The weighing question really is, can it be kept up to date? Damn, I don't know. It's just a very difficult thing. But, this first release collection is amazingly good. Full of variety, coupled with strong and often suitable acknowledgement of Thai female talent. I'd also say, one of the most important things about rankings isn't that you got it JUST right. It really should be about creating conversations and comparisons. Even debate and criticism. It's about getting people to not just care about the few fighters they know, but also other fighters. To familiarize oneself with the accomplishments of the many. Some of the discussion that follows is in that spirit. We don't have to get it right. Let's just keep it in the mix. But, let's also talk about getting it right too. You can find the updated list on the WBC website here: Female Muay Thai WBC Rankings. But, I'll paste the rankings down below for convenience. If you have thoughts on who should be where, that's a cool thing, let's share.

Skateboarding in the US over the last 5 years. Looks like a small uptick in the last year: