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I've been training for nearly a year and a few months ago I had my first interclub, and I just froze. The nerves got the better of me, fear creeped in, I panicked and anyone would of thought it was first time wearing gloves! I've sparred many times, I've been hit harder at training and I've hit harder, but on the day, I just couldn't do it I would really like to compete, but I just can't get back in the ring. I've been offered several more interclubs where I've lied and said I'm busy that day, I'm still sparring and I don't freeze up, but I'm worried if I go in to another interclub will i freeze again, and end up giving up on my dreams Any tips on how to just get in there and do it?

Some of Sylvie's Clinch Content Patreon Clinch Sessions https://www.patreon.com/collection/64835?view=expanded Technique Vlogs (Building a Frame, Clinch in Shadow) https://www.patreon.com/collection/624652?view=expanded Blog Weighted Neck Exercise https://8limbsus.com/muay-thai-thailand/experience-weighted-neck-exercises-thai-clinch Shoulders https://8limbsus.com/blog/muay-thai-strength-training-clinch-vid-yodwicha-uses Pull Ups https://8limbsus.com/muay-thai-thailand/new-pull-ups-clinch-vid-muay-thai-workout Neck Exercises on the Ring https://8limbsus.com/muay-thai-thailand/female-fighter-alliance-young-girl-new-clinch Youtube Playlists Clinch https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLFIbj6VvBW03BJlR2Tf-LIKNuCwnv8-SE&si=5k5t1oLGuU5gUoQ_ Home Workouts (Day 5 Clinch in Shadow Boxing) https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLFIbj6VvBW03iz1nXvyhi1AP9GUhsIdi2&si=j-U8-RV-yKUl6C43

Hi, I would like to ask a question about the muscle areas that every Muay Khao fighter should focus on strengthening for a good clinch and power? I would also like to know which exercises or workout machines you recommend for these muscle parts? If anyone also has any workout plans, videos or articles I would also appreciate them. I welcome any good tip and advice Thanks a lot and have a nice day!

I recommend Hongthong Muaythai Gym for learning Muay Thai. https://www.nowmuaythai.com/gym/hongthong-muaythai-gym This link compiles Muay Thai gyms in Chiang Mai. https://www.nowmuaythai.com/gym?destination=Chiang+Mai&rating=all&sort=bestmatch

This is an important historical perspective on the nature of gambling in Siam (Thailand) and Southeast Asia, which helps explain the way in which gambling on Muay Thai also includes betting on, predicting other minds (other gamblers). And its relationship to social status, and concepts of unseen (even magical) influence.

"What if "market forces" has always been a democracy of forces, in dialectic with State / Chiefdom symbolism (processes of adjudication, idealized wealth accumulation, rites of expiation), with the proviso that markets also have been regularly manipulated." In Thailand's Muay Thai this makes for a very robust framework, as in the history of Siam there are very strong (symbolic) traditional hierarchies (which themselves may be agonistic, see: Toward a Theory of the Spirituality of Thailand's Muay Thai), but there are also arguably free-floating movements of peoples, and local market economies (even liquidities like Deleuze & Guattari theories of War Machine). Festival, gambled fighting may present the combination of hierarchical symbolism and market creation of an art, embodying that dialectic. At the very least the art of fighting should read as an amalgam expression of market (crowd) and symbolic adjudication. "

Related notes on Eugene Holland's Nomad Markets resource: "Is not a provincial festival Muay Thai betting market expressive of the "wisdom of crowds", a collective price movement based on valuations (cultural aesthetics, knowledges), as described by Eugene Holland in his Nomad Market conception? The local gambled market is not reduced to price. It's (if anything) reduced to status. The gambled market is in the service of a communally developed aesthetic, played against the Reality Principle of bodies in conflict. The invisibles made visible." source and... from Nomad Citizenship (2011)

Sounds great! We recently spent some time filming in Ubon (not Udon) at a legit kaimuay: #149 Provincial Kaimuay Knowledge | Santi Ubon Muay Thai (85 min) it would just be great to have insight into your arc of personal experiences at another kaimuay.

Long has been my thesis that Thailand's Muay Thai developed principally through its vast array of provincial fight networks and the communal wisdom of those gambling markets, which makes of it not so much a sport as a cultural expression of the Thai people, self-organized through the centuries (with some evidence going back to as early as the 17th c), and less a codified, rule-governed artifact of centralized power. Below are some thoughts on the "wisdom of markets" dynamic which presents a much more complex picture of fighting aesthetics and the adjudication of fights. In Thailand's Muay Thai bets are taken throughout the fight, and the shifting of odds operates as a kind of scorecard reflecting the collective opinion of its audience (much of which is gambling). This telling explores the aspect of spontaneous order creation argued to be possessed by markets, understanding ring-side gambling as exactly that kind of spontaneous creation and social steering, summarized most broadly: Gambling And The Development of Thailand's Muay Thai Thailand's provincial Muay Thai may, in brief, display a basic logic of the self-organizing market creation of aesthetic judgements, as communal gambling shaped the form of Thailand's Muay Thai as an art and as a sport. One of the most interesting theoretical potentials of Thailand's provincial ring fighting is that fights by definition are events of adjudication. And, that they possess not one, but (at least) two different processes of adjudication. There is the formal one (conducted by officials) and the implied adjudication of a localized market, the odds (price) which shift throughout the fight, which may or may not agree with the formal judgement. What is compelling - and there are a few things - is that there is an element of the adjudicating nature of markets here, a fundamental aspect of Capitalist ideology (but not reducible to Capitalism itself, for markets have functioned and co-organized culture for a long portion of human history). Sidenote: My thesis is that Thailand's Muay Thai developed out of Southeast Asian rites of sacrifice, as understood thru the theories of Rene Girard (an argument which may be extended into other forms of ring fighting), tentatively outlined here (if you want to go through a theoretical side path, click this here, or just skip below): The Judgement of Markets The adjudicating nature of ring sport, and its tractioned, symbolic meaning, may stem from the notion of the sacrificial act, a judgement passed on an innocent (sometimes "perfect") animal. What distinguishes Thailand's Muay Thai (& perhaps other forms of Southeast Asian ring sport combat) is the degree to which it developed along side, co-evolving with a local market of forces (a gambling audience), whose price shifts over time not only reflected communal understanding of the art/sport (a collective wisdom), they also exerted judgement pressures upon the formal judgements of the public event, creating a dialectic of judgements, and forming the custom of the aesthetics of the art/sport. If communal gambling can be seen as collective market judgement, the locus of the wisdom of the sport falls in part within a "democracy" that self-organized the aesthetics of the art, simply through the shifting anticipation of wins or losses, according to how fighters were performing. The prescriptive force of the price of prescience within a group, over time, quantitatively exchanged. *note, Westerners have a hard time thinking about the sport of Muay Thai because it is not governed by explicit "rules" to be found in a rulebook. The expectation is that the sport have officials who basically execute a written law through judgements. The rule & custom of Thailand's Muay Thai - and therefore its somewhat unique historical creation - is far more complex, and therefore gives insight into the possible productive, generative relationships between local market dynamics, communal wisdom & formal adjudication. This complexity of judgements, the communal nature of its co-determination, is what makes it - in essence - a cultural product, woven of the values & the aesthetics of the Thai people (however regionally distinct), in 100,000s of adjudicated, public events. It is "Thai". To appreciate the shaping of market dynamics in village Muay Thai, the communal aesthetic judgements (the shifting price throughout the fight) are in communication with the performance throughout, thru the corners but also as if a Greek Chorus, in atmospheric commentary. Fighters are not just fighting to a rule set or even an aesthetic picture of the art, they are fighting to the live aesthetic judgements of the crowd...as they (their team) too are gamblers. This is a living feedback loop of pricing, which composes the fight. The agonistic market dynamics of the crowd are the quantitative "scoreboard" of who is winning the fight at any particular time. The *functional* score is not hidden on the scorecards of judges...and the fighters are fighting TO the shifting-price market dynamic scorecard. This is one reason why narrative structure is so integral in traditional Muay Thai, and develops even higher levels of skill. In a Western fight the fighter is just trying to control his opponent and influence the judgement of judges, the Thai fighter is seeking to be ABOVE even the fight itself, and control the tide of odds, the shifting market of prices, because the fighter is a gambler (his team). This means its not about winning every round, but telling a story which may involve purposive the fluctuation of price. When we traveled provincially with Phetjeejaa when she was a girl, she was expert at this. She sandbagged early rounds because her reputation was so large. She'd also take weight disadvantages, so some of the market would bet against her. She was "above" the fight, shaping it. This tidal control is part of what makes the fight so compelling to audience...not sure of how to read the performances early in the fight, which clues were being put out there. The fighter ideally controls the opponent, the judges, but mostly the audience. It's a very complex art, learned from a young age. It isn't just beating another fighter who is in front of you, as difficult as that might be. Further complexifying the fight is that audience members (gamblers) are themselves in an agonism of social hierarchies, each is trying to display their prescience (knowledge) over others, indicating prowess, some actually also directing the fighters themselves. The fighters are thus mirroring the social capital battles that are occurring in the audience, (quantifiably) expressed in the shifting of price. Gamblers are displaying & proving their prowess thru bets...but also (problematically) may prove their prowess through illicit manipulation (of fighters or refs). The shifting price is not only reflecting the relative powers of the fighters, but it also reflects beliefs in the ability of gamblers themselves to put a thumb on the scale in the decision. This could be thru anything between having deep knowledge (that is an imparting connection to the fighter, from the corner), to injecting financial incentive to the fighter mid-fight, to having social status that influences a close decision, all the way to suspected subterfuge (real or imagined). There is a degree of detective work in gambling itself, which also the fighters performances reflects as prices change. It is not simply a local free market that is shaping the aesthetics of performance, but also a market full of suspicion & postured powers, everyone reading the direction of the wind. In this way the official are the keepers of the accumulation of 1,000s of past local market adjudications, the aesthetic...and ideally act as a corrective to specific market manipulation (within the collective creation of the sport/art). But, they are also within the social fabric themselves, hold their own place within the social capital, so individual fight adjudications can be highly contested. Is the local market (price) being distorted by undue influence (deviating from the aesthetic), or are officials being manipulated or socially coaxed? But between these two aspects of adjudication, shuttling like on a loom, is the weaving of the aesthetics of the sport and art, conditioned specifically by market forces of shifting price. It is only when individual influence grows too large (distorts the market, or official adjudication) that the creative process of the aesthetic begins to collapse. Importantly, it is not all a question of aesthetics, throughout the 100,000s of 100,000s of fights (if we count the centuries) there is a Reality Principle of bodies applying force on other bodies, in the framework of prices. These are real full contact fights, with real forces and limitations at work. In this sense Muay Thai over the eras is a composite of THREE adjudications, that of the crowd (the wisdom of markets), that of officials (who keep and reflect the history of market adjudications) and that of the bodies of fighters. While much has been made of the difficulties of the influence of gambling on fight decisions in Bangkok, especially as crowds and commercial fortunes have shrunk, this is likely more the case of particular factions becoming too strong in the matrix of judgements that makes up Thailand's Muay Thai. It is likely less that the gamblers (the markets that adjudicate) broadly have grown too strong - for it is my argument that Muay Thai has been born from self-organizing market decision-making, fashioning a true product of a culture over centuries - but more that in smaller crowds individuals have gained too much power, too much of a thumb on the scales, uncorrected by other factors which have historically help steer the sport and art. But the complexity of the sport and of its fighting remains of the same fabric that generated it, and that still generates it in the provinces and stadia. It's very unlike Western sport. One can't just fabricate new rules, specify enforcement, and employ fighters like actors or laborers in a commercial product and still have Thailand's Muay Thai...a Muay Thai that is full of subtleties and very high skill levels, the skills to control tides. The skills of Muay Thai come from its social fabric, the woven way that a knowledgeable and invested audience generates the Muay itself, and the dialogue fighters have with that audience through the symbolic language of their bodies, amid the real limits of physical force.

Hi guys planning on training in CM next summer, any gym recommendations and tips would be appreciated.

Hello This year I had the chance to train two month in Thaïland. At the end of my stay I had 5 days in Bangkok so I visited the Pk Saenchai gym where I saw Yodkhounpon and did a private lesson with him. I really really enjoyed the session with him and I would love to come back and train more with him but he only at Pk gym one day per week so I wonder if he work for another gym where I can train more with him. Any Ideas ?

Hello I did one month at Hong Thong gym. If you want to work a lot on your technics the best could be tto take some private lessons with Joe because during the basic session you will not have a lot of corrections (but you will have some). Some time they have a lot of people so they don't have the time to focus on one specific person. You can fight there and it generally happen at the Loh Kroï stadium surronded by hostesses bars. If you don't know about it becarefull when you will move to Chiang Mai, there is a big the smog around march april and may. Moutain people do buring farming and it impact a lot the quality of the air. The only bad thing I can say about Hong Thong gym when I was there is that the mat were you train is not wash enough often so after two minutes of traning your feet will be black. If you come without your fighting equipment avoid to borrow those they have in the gym. I get a staphilococcus because of that (it's a "Newbe" mistake). You have one fairtex shop in Chiang Mai were you can buy everything you could need. Sometime Manasak and some of his student come to train at Hong Thong, He have a Gym in Chiang Mai too and one good women fighter in his team her name is Lisa Brierley. Enjoy your trip

Hello I did one month of training at Hong Thong muay thai gym. It was in during march, at at this time of the year the quality of air is very very bad because moutain people do slash and burn agriculture so there is a big smog. What I can say about Hongh thong gym ; the first question I heard from one of the manager is, "Do you want to fight" so if you're looking to train and fight you can do it here. When I was there the most of the people with whom I trained were foreigners, mostly from Australia and Canada. The quality of the training will depend a lot on the level of the partner with whom you will drill the technics and do sparring. You will always have 10 min of pad work by session and some days are more oriented on punch, kicks and defense and others on clinching. Joe ( the owner) have a decent english and can teach interesting tips especially for the clinch (He was a muay khao fighter). I didn't had the chance to train with his brother Gen because he was at the Hong Thong gym in Australia at that time. I strongly recommed you to take some private training with Joe. There are not expensive and qualitative from my point of view. They have some rooms there for long time stay, I get one for the month but if they are full you have two hotels at less than 200 meters from the gym. I had the chance to do one private training in Bangkok with Yodkhunpon at Pk saenchai gym and one with Karuhat at Samart gym. . I strongly recommend them aswell.

It can be tough to find out if an opponent is using steroids or other PEDs, especially in places where testing isn’t common. I was in a similar situation once while training and considering a fight. I found it helpful to ask my trainer about the rules and what they do to ensure fairness. Some gyms and competitions might have stricter regulations, even if it’s not the norm everywhere.I also heard about fighters using steroids, so I even thought about buying steroids myself to level up my game. It’s important to stay informed and choose competitions with good reputations for fairness and testing if you’re concerned about this.

I think, unconsciously, Sylvie tapped into this spirit of universal agonism that is at the heart of Thailand's cultural Muay Thai, very early on. From almost the start she took on the huge goal of fighting 50 times, a number that seemed out of reach for someone like her just beginning. She instinctively threw off the symbolism of achievement or greatness, various Belts that other fighters were measured by. Instead it was the actual process - the repeated process - of fighting itself which made Muay Thai almost spiritual. Each time you stepped into the ring you were made different. You changed. You transformed...as you pursued your own dignity, and acknowledged the dignity of your opponent. Each time. So the quest came rather quickly to just throw off all of the external trappings and to just fight, to dive again and again into that stream of renewal and discovery, as incredibly painful and taxing as it may be. It really erases boundaries...while each time redrawing them, more subtly. And she's fought professionally more than any woman in documented history, regardless of sport, nearly 300 times now. She - instead of taking a position politically, or abstractly, she took it personally and artistically - is living the path of this assembled, contested of dignities, repeatedly changed by it.

In Sylvie's person - her remarkable lived path, following the art and Sport of Muay Thai - and the nature of Muay Thai itself, and Thailand's culture of fight agonism I do believe there are principled, philosophical solutions to be taken up, aspects of understanding tradition and progress that do not entail outright opposition, but also are not forced into a (Hegel-like) logic of opposition. This seems paramount as our social media communication systems are more and more driven by algorithms of outrage, attempting to polarize us further and further, just to feed off the heat of it all (a fairly dangerous, purposeful trend). Key in this thinking for me is the way that Beetle Fighting culturally expresses many of the same dynamics as fighting between humans does. There is a continuum of performed agonism in Thai culture that reaches below the human, and puts everyone within a single process. It in customary sense is perhaps seen in gradations: beetle > chicken > children > women > men, these hierarchies built into the sense-making of the culture as well, but the example of beetle fighting, the "lowest" example allows us to view what is happening on all levels of the strata, across them. You can read this two part article Sylvie and I did on Beetle fighting some years ago: Importantly, even holding to traditional categories of insect, animal, child, woman, man, none of these categories are in opposition to each other. In fact each are seen as participant in the same processes, the same struggle for dignity, which is mirroring, or illuminating the human struggle itself. The art of Muay Thai is about the aestheticized process of that struggle, combined with the real "Reality Principle" of actual fighting efficacy, a search for fighting prowess in the absolute sense. This efficacy ballast, this thing that grounds all of these fights, the application of force upon force, is also what unites them. A woman (or even a child, Sangamnee was 15 when he made his legendary FOTY run) if they can beat a man is partaking in and exemplifying the deeper principle, beyond those categories. If you want to look at where the Beetle Fighting example may take us socially or even politically (towards an ecology of persons), this post heads in that direction:

Just to give an idea of the spectrum of care and passion that Sylvie exhibits, including her sense of histories some interviews she's done: Here is Sylvie interviewing Angie, the first trans (presenting) fighter at Lumpinee Stadium (at a time when the gender line at Lumpinee was very hard), before her first fight ever. And here Sylvie interviewing Angie after she fought at Lumpinee: Angie would become a very close friend, and even has said that early on Sylvie as a hard-working woman in the gym was an inspiration for her to even believe she could become a fighter. Sylvie's passionate reaction haven't JUST watched Angie fight: But here is Sylvie interview the absolute legend Karuhat, who also has become a close friend, about how much Muay Thai has changed: And here interviewing Dieselnoi, a very good friend, going over the State of Muay Thai a few years ago: These are just two very brief examples, her historical work bringing to light the lives, techniques, Muay, histories of the legends of Muay Thai is unparalleled. You can see the Muay Thai Library for much of it.

An interesting aspect of Sylvie's perspective on Thailand's Muay Thai is that she's a devoted traditionalist "just fight, get in the ring", "celebrate & study legends", "learn Thai language & culture", "archive Muay Thai history" "fight in a traditional style"...but very progressive as a person. She celebrates dignity. She's a devoted feminist who is actually also a traditionalist...because both require the raising up of the dignity of others, a dignity that has been marginalized. In the case of the men of Muay Thai tradition by the march of globalization & in the case of gender by the march of judgements. She has a very unique amphibious (even seemingly contradictory) relationship to these two poles that in a time of global social media polarization is quite meaningful. It's not common to bring these two together. Everything is about splitting the spectrum...but she's actually lived its confluence. It means many who love and follow her might not agree with each other. It's a really interesting synthesis, because it wasn't achieved at the intellectual/philosophical level. She wasn't working something out abstractly. It's something that occurred by just following her passion for Muay Thai and the dignity that it symbolized, enacted, afforded as she has studied, trained and fought at historic levels. I write this as I'm continuously re-struck by her uniqueness. She's telling me this morning about a Karuhat vs Weerapol fight she may have found to be previously misdocumented, while looking through old Muay Thai magazines (very fine detail stuff) while passionately a defender of trans- and women's opportunities and rights. The dignity of both. Some of this is that Thailand's Muay Thai is shot through with VERY Patriarchal values, composed of hierarchies that are both entrenched but also constantly contested...yet also Thai fight culture possesses a unitarian view of struggle itself, a spirit of agonism that reads dignity in fights of every kind. Even down to the insect level, between beetles, there are contests of dignity...which a struggle which founds dignity itself. So, as long as the struggle and battle is "fair", there is dignity to be discovered & revealed. No matter where you find yourself in the imposed hierarchy. Yes, there are continuous (traditional-minded) reterritorializations which code over those battles, and the struggle over "fair" is its own agonism, part of the Muay, but beneath it all is an almost Spinozist sense of personal dignity being cultivated & exemplified simply as force vs force. Anything and anyone can fight. This is the (hidden) Joy of Thailand's fight culture, a Buddhistic churn of organized & aestheticized agonism, but really of soul against soul. It's in this way Sylvie can be a devout traditionalist (of a kind), but also a feminist progressive...on the issue of dignities. I suspect this is the "something" that draws people, seemingly very different people, people of countervailing values, to Thailand and its extraordinary Muay Thai. This is the heart of what makes Thailand's Muay Thai like no other fighting art & sport. This is really the softest of Muay Thai's power, and its greatest Reality.

I’ve been training Muay Thai for a year, and 2.5 months ago incurred a concussion (first concussion I’ve ever had) from a head kick in sparring and considering what the implications are for my future with potentially fighting (have never fought before). My symptoms persisted for months, due in part to the severity of the concussion but also in part to unwise healing process (I was not given a good healing-roadmap by my doctors unfortunately). Luckily now I am just about healed up. Even once I am healthy enough to return to sparring, I am concerned that I have now developed a glass jaw: My logic is that if I could get concussed from a head kick (it was a heavy one to be fair) in sparring, I fear I would almost *certainly* be concussed from the power of blows thrown in an *actual* fight. When I talk to fighters I know, most have never been concussed, or if they have, it was a brief mild thing, not like mine where symptoms have persisted for months (again this is in part to not permitting ideal healing conditions for the head). To me this suggests that I am perhaps susceptible to concussion, and there is a virtual certainty that after having one concussion, I am more likely to incur another. I really want to keep sparring (once I am entirely recovered) and I would really love to have a fight eventually (next year), but I need to be wise in my choices about the damage I’m exposing myself to. Can anybody speak to their experience with being concussed and then continuing to spar+fight going forwards? Is my jaw/head just not “cut out” for striking if I am getting concussed in sparring like that? Of course nobody can offer medical advice but I’d love to hear people’s experiences and hear what people have observed.

Hi all, I am fortunate enough to have the opportunity to be traveling to Thailand soon for just over a month of traveling and training. I am a complete beginner and do not own any training gear. One of the first stops on my trip will be to explore Bangkok and purchase equipment. What should be on my list? Clearly, gloves, wraps, shorts and mouthguard are required. I would be grateful for some more insight e.g. should I buy bag gloves and sparring gloves, whether shin pads are worthwhile for a beginner, etc. I'm partiularly conscious of the heat and humidity, it would make sense to pack two pairs of running shoes, two sets of gloves, several handwraps and lots of shorts. Any nuggets of wisdom are most welcome. Thanks in advance for your contributions!

I went to sit Thailand for 2 weeks. The technical detail was superb. I've been training for years and he's easily the best teacher I've met. I've never been to manop but the teaching also sounds amazing from people I know who have been there. There is also Manasak which is basically in town. I don't know much about this gym but from the videos on their Instagram, everyone seems pretty high level. All 3 gyms seem pretty active in terms of fighting opportunities. For me personally, doing several private sessions helped my technique loads so I'd recommend that. You could try a day or two in each place and see how you get on? You might just bump into the exact right coach for you.

Have you looked at venum elite

I don’t see how you can go wrong at any of the gyms you mention , sit Thailand has a great gym and is technically brilliant. My son 13 was there last year and they treated him so well , we are back now and they seem to be growing with more trainers than before . They fight regularly and have Thais and farangs fighting . They seem to have a connection with Spain as both times there have been decent Spanish fighters there . They have girls training and fighting . It’s 75bht in a bolt from the old town and takes 15 mins Hongthong is a similar distance from our hotel . Ultimately people will tell you their preference but that might not suit you

You could focus on solo drills and conditioning exercises. Shadow boxing and skipping rope are great. Also, check out online training videos or virtual coaching to keep your technique sharp. If you’re traveling a lot, business class flights can give you more space and comfort. You can spot some options at https://travelbusinessclass.com/best-deals/region/africa. Some airlines have nice amenities that make long trips more comfortable, which can help you stay focused on your training.

Thanks for reading. I never did close the loop on that thread and still owe the forum some closure on my experience there. I'm going to do that soon and start a new thread for my next training adventure, but in California this time.