Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu
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Everything posted by Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu
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This is just an unbelieveable fight. If you are tuned into clinch dynamics, this has so much in it. Wangchannoi opens up the first round ripping off a beautiful vocabulary of strikes, hunting out the holes in Cherry's conservative guard. He's just being waited out by his much larger opponent. Then the dern hunting starts. Cherry slowly collapses all the fighting space, imposing myself on Wangchannoi with gradual, sure suffocation. Wanchannoi's famous hands just disappear. It's all Cherry who is just eclipsing Wangchannoi who more than once loses his composure if just from fatigue and spatial pressure. Then the most amazing thing happens. Instead of changing strategy (get back you your hands! - right?), he instead does something remarkable. He starts to build out a frame from the inside out, and disputes Cherry's narrative. -
It would really take him making a change in his life. Where he is was very difficult to access, and it made for an odd (albeit special) session. If he finds his way to a regular gym we'd love to film with him again, and interview him too!
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Santai Muay Thai - highly underrated gym
Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu replied to MTninja's topic in Gym Advice and Experiences
For anyone following along, this was the Sinbi review: -
Santai Muay Thai - highly underrated gym
Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu replied to MTninja's topic in Gym Advice and Experiences
Very cool, detailed review! Thank you for that. -
In thinking about big size differences in the Golden Age, I now recall when we filmed with Boonlai for the Library. We were talking about his career, and his fight with Namkabuan came up. One of the most interesting things in all he said was that he felt it unsportsmanlike that Namkabuan to plow him across the ring. He said something to the order: "Come on now, you are much bigger than me! Why do you have to plow?!" This is pretty notable in that Namkabuan's power plow was a big part of his arsenal. It was kind of a signature move. Boonlai legitimately questioned why he had to bring his big gun out against a smaller opponent. This maybe says something to the way that Somrak fought Boonlai and Samart fought Panomtuanlek, pulling their weapons back against smaller opponents, displaying their artfulness. It also may even touch on how Namphon pulled back his clinch vs the larger Dekkers, treating the bigger fighter as if he were smaller. This was Boonlai really reveling in his victory over Karuhat. This is despite Karuhat being physically smaller than him. Karuhat held the 122 lb Lumpinee belt, but he tells us that he walked around slightly under 122. There was a whole world of mixed-weight class fighting then, and perhaps unspoken rules about how to fight these fights.
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For those who don't know Namphon, a very nice edit of the nature of his Muay:
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One of my favorite fights, with one of my favorite fighters (Namphon). I don't know why Namphon touches me so much. Such a beautiful fighter, with so much dignity, but who history (both western and Thai) seems to have not fully appreciated. Perhaps I was touched by the look in Namkabuan's eyes when talking about how amazing his brother was, only a few short months before Namphon died. In any case, just a beautiful fight, two months after Dekkers was was kindly gifted with a win over him on foreign soil. Watch that first fight again, a blowout for Namphon (at least in Thai scoring), but given to Dekkers. In this fight the re-match Namphon out-boxes and low-kicks the Dutch fighter (a style known for both), and leaves the clinch out of it until the final round. He already knew he could destroy Dekkers in the clinch, as he did in the first fight for endless stretches; instead he just out techniques him in space, until the 5th when the fight is out of hand. Then he shows what he could have done, if we wished. I love that he left his biggest weapon off the table. And I love the look on Namphon's face in the first round, after Dekkers throws his opening bad-blood strikes, the quiet progression of Namphon's resolve, the slow boil of his dissection and pressure. And I love that weird little tight bounce he develops in the 3rd when he's saying, OK it's time to go. Not sure what weight this was fought at, but Dekkers very likely had a significant weight advantage (which I've heard was common for his fights in Thailand). The first fight versus Namphon in Holland was at 140 lb. Namphon was a 126 lb Lumpinee Champion. That is a lot of weight to give up to a power puncher.
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Huge Weight Differences not Uncommon I should say, or at least add, that it seems that these kinds of weight differences were not unheard of, and in fact may have been common. As Dieselnoi once said of the "yodmuay" of today, comparing them to those of the Golden Age, in the past a yodmuay would fight everybody. It's not just that the structure of greatness has changed in contemporary times, with a drastically smaller talent pool, or a mega gym like PKSaenchai hoarding all the talent, so that there are far, far fewer great vs great matchups (that, yes), but also that yodmuay of the past would not only fight all or most the elite fighters of their own weight class multiple times, they would also fight well out of their weight class vs champions well above them. Sometimes way above them. You fought everyone, and therefore, you lost. The year after the Samart vs Panomthuanlek size mis-match, you had Panomthuanlek's yodmuay brother, Chamuakpet fight Sangtiennoi. From available records, this was the 122 lb Rajadamnern Champion vs the 130 lb Rajadamnern Champion (leaping over an entire weight class, 126 lbs). Holy hell. with Chamuakpet winning (beating him for the 2nd time). People ask, What made Golden Age Yodmuay so great? Part of it was that they were not only fighting in the greatest talent pool in Muay Thai history, even the 3rd or 4th best fighter in a weight class was a historic killer, when you peaked at a weight you went up and fought the very best above you, and even further above you again. You fought up until you hit a ceiling.
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Thinking about this, there is a similiar fight to Somrak's mastery over Boonlai, aided by weight differences, and that is the famous 1988 Samart "Teep Fight" vs 1986 Fighter of the Year Panomthuanlek Hapalang. What is consistently missed in this magical dominance of another yodmuay is that surely there must have been a massive weight advantage for Samart. Just looking at it now, you can really see it. To give an idea, in Pathomthuanlek's Fighter of the Year year he won the 115 and 118 lb Lumpinee Titles. In 1987 he became the 122 lb champion. In 1987 Samart said he lost his WBC belt because of a terrible weight cut trying to get down to 122. These men just are not the same size. Pathomthuanlek was likely fighting UP to get to 122, Samart couldn't even easily get to 122 at that point (he was the 126 lb Lumpinee champion in 1981). I don't know what weight this fight was at, but it's very interesting that probably the most dominant factor in the entire fight is practically invisible if you aren't looking for it. It just looks like a magical performance of teep juggling by a master, and then a beautiful finish. We aren't even thinking that there is maybe a two weight class difference between the two fighters. Also interesting is that Samart plays it much like Somrak did, when facing an elite talent who is well below them in weight, he turns off his weapons. In this case he's just teep juggling, in Somrak's case he refused to punch. But Samart is more of a killer than Somrak, and goes for the KO when it presents itself. But, it goes to show as well, if you give an elite Muay Femeu fighter big weight they suddenly look untouchable, magnifying their greatness. Flip it around and make Samart the much small fighter, and it looks very different. Thinking about weight and its hidden visual impact is a preoccupation of mine lately, mostly because if you are are going to be visually impactful as the smaller fighter, you need specific tactics or strategies. There are optics to overcome, as well as physical disparities and geometries.
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This is just a crazy example of persistence hunting. Chamuakpet hunting down Oley, one of the most underrated fighters of his era. Very difficult to make Oley look bad, and in fact Oley looks imperturbable. Chamuakpet circling, circling, pressuring, almost losing ringcraft. Knees and hands, knees and hands, lots of hands, everything is about staying in the distance, creating that pressure, that bubble, until it pops. A really incredible fight.
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Oh, that is cool. I'd want to put Suk, Karuhat, and from what Dieselnoi tells us, Chamuakpet on there (without having to decide who to take off!)
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Boonlai vs Somrak (1991). This is just an incredible fight, and I wonder what the story is behind it. Somrak who would gain world fame for winning Olympic Gold in Boxing for Thailand in 1996, is fighting the great Boonlai, known for his kicking, and very nice hands, seemingly does so refusing to punch. Somrak is about a year away from representing Thailand in the 1992 Olympic games in boxing at this point, but in the footage we have of this fight he almost completely takes his hands away. Before the 5th round I count only a soft 1-2 setting up a kick, a defensive 2 crosses when his kick is caught, and another pair of punches. One definitely get the strong sense he simply is taking his hands off-line. Then, with a huge lead in the 5th he just jabs repeatedly in retreat, as if saying: I could have just beat you with my jab if I had wanted to. Instead we get a gorgeous display of checks, teeps, counterkicks and open-side knees. Maybe something personal? Maybe a statement fight to the community, but Boonlai was no joke of an opponent. You see a fighter like Saenchai toying with very underskilled westerners, and people are wowed, this is Boonlai. It should be said that the fight was at 126, which was maybe a weight class up for Boonlai (he was 122 lb Lumpinee champion), which maybe adds a little more to Somrak's confidence in space, but it still is an amazing fight to watch. Somrak skating around the ring with an elite opponent. You also get a primary lesson in how backwards, non-aggressive fighting in Thailand's Muay Thai can lead to performances of supreme dominance. In thinking about fights, we have to think about opponents. If you're not familiar with Boonlai, a nice edit of Boonlai toying with opponents:
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Its cool to argue - or even better, discuss - these kinds of lists, because it causes us to put things into larger context. But we have to really keep in mind that we are just more or less just making things up as westerners. Even Samart, who is widely embraced by westerners as the GOAT has very few fights on video to watch.. There are fights with yodmuay never even seen, and then rematches with the same, also unseen. These are histories that are more or less profoundly lost, even for the most embraced of fighters, let alone those that have nothing preserved on YouTube or by oral memory. Even the sudden rediscovery of the tape of Samart vs Dieselnoi in 1982 recasts the discussion in a very different light, and that is just one fight of 100s if not 1000s, otherwise unseen. That being said, a pretty cool list in that it captures great fighters across generations (though it might have been awesome to see Suk "The Giant Ghost" in there, though none of us have seen him fight). The dude terrified opponents for 4 decades by most reports. And Dieselnoi's vote for the GOAT Wichannoi does not make the list, though Apidej at #3 maybe is the strong nod to the era. Other quibbles would be that Somrak is ahead of his JockGym mate Saenchai, likely for his success in Olympic Boxing, which seems pretty strange. Somrak, what a fighter, but it's really unclear how great in that his opportunities were curtailed. I will say that it is really cool to see Wangchannoi so high up. He feels like a fighter who is a fighter's fighter.
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The list from the article, in case you don't recognize someone. 1. Samart 2. Dieselnoi 3. Apidej 4. Somrak 5. Saenchai 6. Wangchannoi 7. Kaensak 8. Namkabuan 9. Pudpadnoi 10. Namsaknoi
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https://pepperrr.net/th/articles/3049 It's great to see a top 10 list in Thai and not English. There is the slight issue that #2 beat #1 pretty definitively, now that we have the video it makes the victory less abstract. You can see the just impact of Dieselnoi's unrelenting force and technique on the fighter everyone holds as the King of smooth.
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All lead side. Endless jabs, front leg teeps, lead leg kicks into the open side. Max protects, and beautiful slip outs. Karuhat vs Paruhatlek
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Just a thread of fights I love, as I run into them. I watched this first one last night and it just stayed in my memory, almost as a haunting. Hippy fought everyone, and he fought up a ton. As good a fighter as there ever was, but just too small to make the huge impact others have. In this fight you can see it all play out. He's just too small. He doesn't have the power to really effect his larger, super boss opponent Jaroensap. I love his valiant fight here. watch the fight here
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You say it right, you "catch" the kick, which means you pick a spot on the shin you want to catch it with, and you meet it up, like you are using a glove and catching a ball. As to how high you bring it up depends on how high the kick is. I'm not super experienced with this myself, but I did start doing it in padwork when I had a banged up shin, and the train was fond of whacking me back with a kick. I just started catching the kick just below the kneecap, or even with the point of the knee, gently. For me, I'd fold the leg a bit to give the knee support. It is very hard when bent. There are some really good things about it. The first is that you are practicing accuracy. People don't think of blocks needing accuracy, but they do. It's usually just "Get your block up!", but all the greats were super accurate with their checks. They aren't using the whole shin. Trying to catch it in a specific part of the shin is super productive, and will give you confidence in your checks over time. As to hurting your partner, well, they are hurting you. Not intentionally, but yeah, it's hurting you. The whole point of sparring without shin guards, or the whole benefit, is that it teaches you control and feeling. If you are catching kicks up on the thick high part of your shin, or catching with the point (a little), they just have to pull their kicks, gain control. It's sparring, not whacking. You don't have to spear them with the knee, just catch it. I'm not even saying you could/should do this. But there are some good ideas why it might make sense in your situation. And it could be fun. In terms of Muay Thai you don't want to be catching kicks all day, in the long term.
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You can use it as an occasion to maybe become more accurate with the block, and try and catch the kicks up at the top of the shin where the bone is thicker, below the knee, or even bending the leg and catching it with the knee point. This is basically the Low Kick Destroyer (catching low kicks on the knee point). It might be worth experimenting with, just to avoid catching all kicks.
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A worthy article on the shoulder strike and it's use in MMA/wrestling: Conor McGregor’s shoulder strike: A potential new trend, or an old classic briefly revamped?
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continued from above
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This is an awesome little book we found today, a guide put out the the Sports Authority of Thailand, which had Sylvie's gym Petchrungruang in it. There are not a lot of places where this kind of information can be found so we came home and just photographed the pages. You should be able to download any single page and zoom in to get the details you might be interested in. Not the best format for browsing, but it is a resource! You can find Sylvie's recommended gym list here. As a guide you might scroll through and find a gym that you hadn't thought of, or hadn't heard of before. Every gym has 4 pages devoted to it. continued below
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A good example of this is that Cerrone has his "head in" pretty decently, in the sense that he's protecting from the elbow from the controlling arm, which in Thailand's Muay Thai would be the main concern (other than being manipulated and turned). This is a "not bad" head position, something that would not get punished. But, in this case, especially because he's grinding forward, he's exposed to the shoulder. The top of head here needs to be really tucked it, on the shoulder/collar/jaw bone, tick-in, which is a very strong Thai clinch response. But, where it is, is the "good enough" position in many Thailand fights because there is no concern for the shoulder strike.
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I'm, personally, not interested in its use in MMA, or this fight. I think because it came out of a common Thai clinch position it maybe exposes a few holes in the position, specifically in Thailand's Muay Thai (the ruleset and fighting style in the country, which is what I'm most familiar with). I'm not really openly asking anything though. I'm just thinking through the position, from a traditional Muay Thai perspective. There are always blindspots in fighting styles and customs, this seems like one of them, in a very narrow sense. Imagining this position with more optimal postures on the Cerrone side, it would be much harder to execute, but it is interesting to think through it's possible uses, even if more well-defended. This is complicated though by how it might be reffed or perceived within the traditional Thai ring.
