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Hey everyone Wondered what people thought about an issue that doesn't get raised much if ever in the open - but noticed fighters have strong opinions either way in private. You guys all sound fairly well schooled in Thai in your countries, so be interested to hear ideas On the subject of drinking, do you guys follow the traditional old school view of no alcohol at all, or the more modern everything in moderation view. Personally, never drank in training for fights, but still loved to kick back and party afterwards. But even this is having a horrible effect on my body and ability to feel right and in tune afterwards. Oh yeah, also tend to be living in disturbingly alcohol cultures the last few years, where it's a huge part of every day life and everyone expects you to be part of it. Even ppl in the gym Thanks a lot

I'm not usually interested in the chemical ways that the fighting experience can be enhanced or improved upon, but I found this 2016 study that Tylenol dampens one's empathy towards the pain of others provocative. It was not only the physical pain of others, but also their social pain. "From painkiller to empathy killer: acetaminophen (paracetamol) reduces empathy for pain" (2016). The effect was not pronounced, this interview on the subject suggests maybe a 10% reduction: "Researchers Examine Why Tylenol Affects Empathy" (2016) (the study seems to indicate something along the lines of 5-8% maybe), but it does present a really interesting side-effect for a very common over the counter drug. I can't imagine that experienced fighters would benefit much from this as overcoming the psychological impact of the potential pain of others is a large part of developing as a fighter, but it does make some sense that 2 Tylenol might be worth taking if you are having a first fight, or even a fight in the first 10. Maybe that 10% difference in empathy threshold could mean something to you. (Note: even though it is an over the counter drug Tylenol in larger doses can wreck your liver and even be life threatening. This is not something you want to pound.) The idea might be to dull your own pain, a bit, and your sensitivity to the pain of others. It's super interesting that some of the theorizing about why a drug might reduce both involves the way that pain is modeled, that there is some sense in which the mechanism by which we feel our own pain is also involved in our feeling for, virtually experiencing, the pain of others. While people who are drawn to fighting often imagine that there shouldn't be an issue here, there really can be lots of difficulty in not only hurting others, but also the humiliation given to them by making them look bad, or giving a loss. Sure, lots of fighters can take on hyper-aggressive persona which act like they don't care, but underappreciated is that many people who are drawn to fighting are quite sensitive, and many are wounded themselves. The ability to negotiate the domination of others, the hurting of others, can involve a great deal of personal development. Could Tylenol, in some cases, help ease that development? It's at least worth thinking about.

I get asked quite a lot about how I've gone about learning the Thai language. For me, it's not a direct answer to a more or less direct question, because how one learns a language when you actually live in the culture is entirely different than how I learned German, for example, which was sitting at a desk in school, in America, for 5 years. So, the short answer is: I moved to Thailand and it was important to me to learn the language, so I've been learning it all along. The long answer is: tutors, books, websites, magazines and newspapers, being forced to communicate with trainers, strangers, government officials, and promoters, and having friendships with Thai people. None of these things are singularly responsible for my ability to speak, read and write Thai; and none of them would have made it possible without all the others. Thai is a tonal language. What that means is that the inflection of a word doesn't express your emotional connotation, instead it is required for the meaning of the word itself. For example, if we say "what?" with a clipped tone, we might be ready to fight. If we say, "whaaat?" with a rising tone we might sound like we're in disbelief. But the meaning of the actual word stays the same. In Thai, the change in tone would change the meaning of the word. So, for example "ma" with a flat tone means "come," whereas "ma" with a rising (like asking a question) tone means "dog," and "ma" with a high tone (like an incredulous "huh?") means "horse." How easy it is to mix those up in speech, and yet they're all spelled differently. For a long time, as folks coming from non-tonal languages, we can't even hear the difference between these words. All this is to say, I think it's important to have a teacher at some point in your process of learning Thai. Not only are tones important for people to understand you, but it teaches you how to hear as well, so that you can understand other people. My first teacher was Kru May, who was a generous young teacher at a school that was on the same street as Lanna Gym in Chiang Mai. It was my first trip to Thailand and I wanted to learn some Thai, so I'd contacted a teacher via an advertisement on a light pole. That didn't work out so well and I was lost. I wandered into this school and the office-director, when she realized what I was looking for, was so kind that she just sat me down and had Kru May teach me Thai every few days... for free. It was an incredible sign of Thai generosity. She even invited me to her home to have dinner, this odd little farang who wandered in, but that never came about. I'm really grateful to Kru May and Khun Luang (the woman who took me in). When I got back to New York, I found an online tutor and continued learning that way. This was my teacher, Titcha Kedsri, who may or may not still be offering lessons. Once I moved to Thailand, I met in person with a tutor named Simon, maybe for 6 months or so. For those who want to wade in with their own materials, there are a few sources that are really valuable and free: Women Learn Thai is an online source that really has a lot to go through. If you're a man, don't be confused by the name, it's in no way female specific and often still uses male pronouns and polite particles. Another great resource is video lessons by Mod and Pear, so you can really work on pronunciation and hearing those tones, "Learn Thai with Mod" is great for rudimentary and basic Thai phrases and vocabulary. A book that I used in order to be able to start reading is this Thai: An Essential Grammar by Smyth. Learning a language with proper structure, grammar, spelling, rules, etc. is dizzying for me. It's a good reference and it's the reason I know that the class of a consonant, coupled with it being "live" or "dead," and the length of the vowel, plus or minus a tone mark, all changes how a word is pronounced. I know those things in my head, but over time I just read and now how to pronounce something because I'm learning the language via exposure and immersion all the time. That's really important. I don't know all the rules of English the way I know those rules in Thai, but you know what sounds correct or not. You need both. Finally, and most importantly, I think: it was really important to me to learn Thai. As soon as I could sound out basic words, I was struggling to read through the Muay Siam magazine that gave short reports of female fight results. I tried to order my food in Thai, even when I was painfully shy about it. Moving from Chiang Mai to Pattaya significantly improved my Thai, because I was forced to speak Thai more in Pattaya (there's much less English here than in Chiang Mai). I started chatting with Kru Nu in the mornings. I had to start booking my own fights, so I was texting with promoters - man, I'm sure I made some serious errors along the way. My messages were super short and basic. Now they're long and conversational. And occasionally I still don't understand things, but I have lots of practice in how to figure them out. Because it's an ongoing process.

That right there is one of the number one problems for us and the training we get in West. Right there. We should not being holding pads for each other, end of story. But businesswise for most gyms, it's the only way they think it makes sense,

Thanks Kevin. I guess it comes dow to who’s holding for me at the gym. I’m one of the taller heavier people at the gym so I can just dial it down power wise and focus on speed and technique if partnered with someone smaller. Good too know that it is the right thing to go hard when I can. Thanks again

I don't think it is a dumb question at all. I remember Sylvie training with the legend Kaensak who described the purpose of padwork as "charging the battery", which is probably how it was used in the Golden Age of Muay Thai when he reigned. It was pure power, tempo and fatigue, priming you for a fight. You had already developed your technique since youth. This older purpose of padwork comes into direct contrast with the western preoccupation with Thai cleanness of technique, and with padwork itself. A padman, generally, in Thailand, is just a worker, someone pushing the fighters physically. Not some elevated teacher (in most cases). Holding pads of someone is just doing work. In the west though it is used to teach technique, put to a different purpose. So it really depends where you fall on the spectrum. Generally though, you should be really pushing it on the pads, developing your ability to hold your technique, your tempo, your balance, even though fatigue. Padwork is exposing you to fight fatigue pressure and pushing you through ideal responses, I think.

Although I am from Kyokushin, I can't help but see some similarities between our systems. Our particular style of Karate make heavy use of our shins as weapons. We also will block (catch) incoming roundhouse kicks with our upper shins (very similiar to your Low Kick Destroyer). We don't typically use shin guards, relying very heavily on control. There is also the conditioning of shins, forearms, etc. That being said, no one bats an eye if someone is using shinpads during training. Our instructor is a very pragmatic man. The last thing he wants is for one of his students to be limping around at work or school the next day. Don't get me wrong, we still have our fair share of bumps and bruises. That is how I started following Sylvie (How to treat damaged shins). In general, there is really nothing wrong with training w/o shin pads AS LONG AS you are sensible and responsible about it. BTW- I don't see any mention of treating shins with Dit Da Jow. My acupuncturist make some for me and I was shocked at how effective it was.

This is a somewhat complicated question in that, especially in Thailand, there's a moral component to alcohol consumption that will be included in how it's viewed by your gym. Trainers who drink aren't viewed as super dependable by those who don't, students who drink are socially engaging with those trainers, but will also be dismissed in some ways by those in the gym who don't. If you're showing up and working hard, you'll be appreciated for that. If you're tired and drained - even if it's occasional - and it's known that the reason behind it is that you were out drinking, you'll be judged for that in addition to what you'd be chastised for if you were just having a "bad" day. I'm in the same school as Madeline, where I just can't afford feeling shittier than I would if it were simply a rough night of sleep or being tired from the work I'm already doing. So, I abstain for the same reasons I don't eat sugar or stay up too late to watch Netflix or whatever else. If it's compromising my training, it goes. But people have different goals and different motivations. The 5AM runs make me a total asshole for the day and I still go do those, so we all make compromises, hahaha.

Exactly. Worst is when you're only with one other person and you tell them you don't mind if they drink, that they should go for it. But then they get all butthurt and miserable and confused. Like wtf, why does it matter to them.

Agreed, . Since first posting this question on the forum, have given up all booze for good now. Feel way way better, and don't even miss it. But maybe wasn't much of a sacrifice, never was a big drinker anyway. Seems like it's one of those things that's just socially expected of you.

I commend you for your desire to be a worthy partner. I feel the same way about this. Majority of my pad holding experience is with a partner that weighs 40 lbs more than me. And whenever there's a bigger weight difference than that, I have to be really diligent with holding, no day dreaming. Here are some ideas that helped me: - turn your shoulder in to meet the punch as opposed to just moving your arm (similar to you throwing a cross at the same time). This was the big one for me to make sure I don't injured my shoulder. Also, it feels really solid and good for the person hitting. - stand with a solid base, like your fighting stance, with feet apart and knee bent - mirror the footwork of the combo. I mean, your partner would be taking a small step forward with every punch, so you would take a small step backwards while receiving each of those punches - tuck elbows into your body when holding for kicks and sink your weight down. If the kick is too hard and throws you back, don't be afraid of it. Just know that it's going to throw you back will make your feet move with it, so you won't fall. - breathe out as you receive the punch. I think it helps you generate more force to meet the punch/kick. The impact don't affect you as much. I guess a lot of these are the same for if you are hitting... Which makes sense, as the things you do when hitting, like breathing out, turning your shoulders, having a string base, are meant to put you in a strong position. I remember being really driven to hold well when I first found a partner to do pads with. I wanted to make sure it was worthwhile for my partner. Sometimes I meet training partners that are demanding of having good partners (always asking their partners for favours and help) but don't value the other side of it which is being a good partner. I think the effort you put in to holding pads is beneficial to both you and your partner. Your partner would get a good pad session to improve their skills, and you would get stronger as you regularly meet heavy punches. Your distancing and ability to see punches and react improves from holding pads too. It's awesome that you consider your pad holding skills.

Creating a topic area for discussion, let's investigate the potential dialogue for both arts. As a starting point here is my interview with Thais who is a teacher of dance, and a Muay Thai enthusiast who was visiting Petchrungruang. I did this interview Muay Thai Bones style, which is basically a running conversation of riffing off of ideas. In comments maybe we can expand on the way each art and practice can shed a light on one another:

Face I was not able to reach this in the discussion above, and I am not particularly knowledgeable in Dance, but there is something in Dance which has always struck me. Face. Even in popular forms of dance, the best dancers dance with their face. What do I mean by that? It's the facial expression that carries the dance, no matter the style, and more than anything it is usually the absence of exertion in the face that makes the dance float, creating an affect space above and beyond the technical zones of performance. It's the grueling work of practice that is ef-faced, through the way the face carries the dance, freeing it from the earth, in a sense. This is precisely the case in Thai aesthetics of Muay Thai. You learn in the Thai gym to control your facial expressions, often to adopt a placidity, or a flatness, sometimes a joy or freedom, sometimes a boredom even (Muay Femeu), something trained in the very exertion of the thousands of hours. In the west we learn to show, sometimes even theatricize our fatigue, or our pain, over exaggerating and evidencing our commitment, our sacrifice, our loss of control. For the Thais (until recently, with the meme-like spread of Buakaw-face, or Anime-face, in some promotions), the face is one of the most profound channels of performance, the techniques of the face. I'm thinking of Weerapol's fight nickname "Deathmask" or Samart's "Jade Faced Tiger", two of the greatest. There is some sort of very basic continuity of performance in the role of facial performance in Dance and traditional Thai Muay Thai.

Going to be athletic about my eye rolling for both of them, coach and acolyte. We’re talking not even a flash of iris showing, just completely white eyes

Thanks so much for your thoughts, everyone. I tend to lose my shit when something or someone gets in the way of my training. Got my shit back, back to work.

Yeah true. Maybe though, karma will reward you and others more in the long run for not using that short cut. Different, but slightly similar issue - at least 3 current champions come to mind who have also talked about being more motivated to improve early on because a minority or even one person got all trainer attention and time. Sucks though.

There will always be assholes to avoid in a gym. No matter her behavior, it is the responsibility of the coach to manage this so it doesn't affect the class. Perhaps you can talk to other students to see if others feel the same and if yes, talk to the coach? It is really annoying to see female peers using their looks or sexual power to get attention from the trainers. It feels like they're cheating or using short-cuts. And it affects every female student if teachers stop seeing them as students and instead as objects for their sexual desires and means to get some ego massage. But I can understand it. It's not easy being taken seriously and flirting is a handy strategy. Or taking the role of daughter/female protege or whatever. But it's their choice and the responsibility of the coach to manage depending on his level of professionalism You will just waste precious energy and focus to get upset about her.

It's interesting you call this "typically female behavior" but accepting the ego stroke by your coach isn't similarly called "typically male behavior." I'd call it that. Sorry you're dealing with an annoying situation and dynamic. Smart to just get away form it but shitty that you have to miss training due to it.

Everyone in my life always viewed me as a very peaceful person, until I went through some very trying times in my early teen years followed by a couple more in my early twenties. They revealed a rage inside me I didn't remember since I was an angry little kid. I guess I rediscovered an organic nature in me that I constantly hold back. I still struggle with being too "nice" during my fights. I don't even really care if I win, I just want to find that organic emotion and let it out freely in an accepted way.

For that question, I love to use some adapted quote from an english author: “I fell in love with Muay Thai as I was later to fall in love with people: suddenly, inexplicably, uncritically, giving no thought to the pain or disruption it would bring with it.” Meanwhile I'm training or furthermore studying it for some 1,5 years. Only! But it feels like ages! Honestly I don't see that violence point but what I see is pure art and beauty in the movements. When I talk about Muay Thai people tell me my eyes are shining! I'm fascinated and attracted by its precision, the necessity to stay concentrated in every single moment, the complexity of each move. I love getting deep and deeper into it, analyzing techniques, trying this and that, soaking up everything like a sponge. Regarding the fitness aspects I can say I started at >85kg and meanwhile (after 18 months) reached some 63-64kg, I enjoy to watch my body develop, to experience getting stronger, see muscles becoming apparent. Sure that might happen as well with other sports but I was always an active person before but nothing attracted me like Muay Thai did meanwhile. I'm just happy I "met" Muay Thai and enjoy every single training session!

Because Muay Thai is breathing to me. Everything else is just drowning. There's a quote from Rosa Luxemburg that goes: "Those who do not move, do not notice their chains". In a similar fashion I wasn't aware I wasn't breathing before starting Muay Thai. The oxygen it gave me is my life-changing discovery - that and kitties.

I do it because I really enjoy it. I really regret not starting when I was younger, but nothing I can do about that. It keeps me fit, my flexibility is getting better, but mostly I think its learning new skills and seeing myself slowly improve. It also provides me with a connection to Thailand (I love it there, see). I’ve also really enjoyed learning about the history of it - reading up about all the golden age legends, then looking up their fights on youtube, studying them in Sylvie’s library. I’ve been able to get over to Thailand a couple of times this past year and train with some of them, which was amazing. I think another thing that fascinates me about Muay Thai is how the sweetest, most softly spoken people you could ever meet have developed such an explosive and brutally effective martial art. It’s all about causing the maximum amount of damage in the most efficient way possible. No fancy unifroms, no grading system, they just put on a pair of shorts, train real hard and fight!

Hahaha I can't tell you how much I fucking love this statement. FIND THE VIOLENCE!!!

I discovered Muay Thai about 4 years ago (I'm 29 now) but only really put myself into it 2 months ago, because I was scared of the risks, of the "Why da hell should I suffer so much if I can be in my sofa?". But now I am addicted to it. For me, every 2 hour Muay Thai training session is a way to rediscover my body, my sensations, feel pain so I can feel good afterwards. It might sound very "spiritual" and bullshitty, but that's what it is. When I practice Muay thai, do Sparring, I feel like I'm ressucitating. I've always been looking for my "passion", after reading "The Monk who sold his Ferrari", and Muay Thai just might be it.

I totally feel that destructive, super-passionate relationship thing. The way the very same thing that builds you up and makes you feel AMAZING, also tears you apart and makes you question everything you are. But the good times are sooo good, it makes you think the bad times are worth it. Basically, find something you love and let it destroy you. But not in the abusive relationship way, in the "you cannot possibly remain the same person through this process" kind of way. Destroyed and rebuilt, all the time. All the time. I've never thrown myself into anything the way I've been consumed by Muay Thai. Not only is it my whole life, it's Kevin's whole life, too. Maybe it's not possible to answer "why" you're obsessed by something, because the answer is always the same, that you're just fascinated and enamored and it never dries up. I can't picture myself doing anything else. The frequently asked question of "what are you going to do when you stop fighting?" is fucking heart-breaking. It would be like meeting someone's dog or husband and asking them what they're going to do when the thing they love the most dies. I don't know... feels like the end of the world.

I just got absorbed by it. It's like this destructive super-passionate relationship I keep coming back to even though I keep getting hurt and the guy is a dick but all other sports I ever loved are friendzoned forever. Mainly I love being in the gym. Or having a gym to go to. It gives me a purpose and feeling of improvement even though work might suck or other stuff in life might suck. Muay thai allows me to get out of my head and into my body. I like the feeling of being sweaty. The sounds of someone kicking pads. I love the feeling of pushing through exhaustion. Of always hurting a little bit. The constant presence of pain makes me feel alive. I like the physical closeness in the gym, with other students, with the trainer. To discover movements and skills I practiced suddenly becoming available to me. I learn so much and I discover so many things about me and others that I could never have understood in any other way than physically experience it. I learn patience. I learn how good things and beautiful things are parallel to pain and frustration. I get the physical experience of hard work pays off. I learn about violence and I discover my own violence. And I really like gym when people don't talk much. When bodies do the talking.

Hmmmm....... I love it because of the freedom it allows. You don't get that freedom from Karate, etc. That's my opinion. The freedom one gets from expressing their muay. It becomes integral to your state of being, of who you are. Once someone discovers the difference of feeling of training, teaching muay thai as opposed to kickboxing, I believe their lives change. I might be rambling, as this is just coming straight from the heart. I enjoyed my Karate, Kickboxing etc, but I love muay thai. At least as I understand muay thai. My understanding is my own, and will be totally different to anyone else's. They say this feeling can be achieved in other martial arts, but I never experienced that feeling. That's why I gave away karate. When I go to sleep I dream muay thai, I think continually about muay thai and how it can benefit everyone. If I was the all,powerful emperor Ming, I would decree that it should be in every school's phys. ed. programme.

At least part of what keeps me coming back is the way that the fear/adrenaline/exertion of training do wonders to stave off anxiety and depression. It also give my life a certain continuity in that I have something that I can feel like I've improved at every day.

I haven't seen a lot of drilling without shinguards in my gym here in Germany but my experience is certainly limited. We never used shinguards when training Kali though. Of course we also kicked less than you do in Muay Thai. It does help with control though. I think a good way to go might be a rule our Kali-trainer gave us for drills that involved taking direct hits that could potentially be damaging or cause long time bruising. An example was front kicks to the stomach-area where one partner would practice the kick and the other would just take it on the stomach to practice breathing and flexing the stomach muscles with good timing. The rule was: start low intensity and the one on the receiving end gives the commands. The only two commands allowed are "good" if intensity is fine or "harder" if intensity is too low. The idea is that this way it should be possible to train well and increase intensity without it ever getting TOO hard. Remember: you'll do this taking turns so the next kick will be yours to take!