Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu

Sangtiennoi's gym look pretty awesome to us. Traditional, western friendly, connected, a legendary fighter.

This is Sylvie's list of gym recommendations thread, where you can ask follow up questions: http://8limbs.us/muay-thai-forum/topic/793-my-list-of-muay-thai-gyms-i-recommend-in-thailand/

This is not a gym for someone who is not familiar with or connected in Isaan, I would say. It's run by a wonderful family, and represents and trains diverse fighters in the Buriram area, but no English or western language is spoken. We did not see training sessions there, but it appeared quite informal. This is more a gym for someone looking for complete adventure and immersion, I think, not a gym to go to if expecting to fight or be trained in a rigorous way. If you are going to be in Isaan I'd recommend Kem Muaythai Gym. Sylvie's Article: http://8limbs.us/muay-thai-thailand/kem-muaythai-gym-khorat-hardcore-beautiful-clinch-gym

I think a lot of this is just how connected the gym is to regular female fighting. A gym that is either very focused on its Thai stadium fighters, or on pushing westerners through its training (making $$$ that way), may not be connected enough with the kinds of opponents that might be good for you. Sylvie herself isn't really booked for fights by her own gym, Petchrungruang, because they just are not "about" female fighting. I can't speak for Phuket, but Chiang Mai is so full of fights, and has so many regularly fighting Thai females, most of the gyms there can book a pretty good fight in a moment's notice. But...with a two week window I would say that you want to communicate this all up front, as soon as you get there. I'm here to fight, I want to fight. I'm not sure that a gym like Santai or even Hongthong would book you this quickly (it really depends on how fight ready you are), but if you show you are game, focused and serious about it, I DO think Lanna would book you. We regularly heard that serious students could be made ready to fight in 1 or 2 weeks, with the appropriate match up. Chiang Mai is just unique in this way, and Lanna unique too. But yes, we've heard many stories about women thinking they were going to get a fight at the end of their training at various gyms, and it just doesn't happen. In each of Sylvie's trips to Thailand she fought about 2 weeks in, after arrival, I think. But she really pushed for that.

If you decide to go there Sylvie can help communicate your desire to fight to Daeng, the head trainer, perhaps in advance. Just message her on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/sylviemuaythai/

If you go to Lanna Muay Thai in Chiang Mai I think there should not be a problem setting up such a fight. They are very fight friendly, and there are lots of opponents in Chiang Mai.

That was a very good movie, one of the first and most inspiring. Ironically enough, we didn't realize that the gym portrayed in that movie was Lanna Muay Thai, Sylvie's gym for a long time. We only really realized it over time. Nong Toom even cornered for Sylvie in one of her first big promotion fights: I love this photo. Nong Toom has a very strange sadness about her, or at least she did when in this promotion (she fought too). It is captured in this moment. Interestingly enough, probably Sylvie's best friend at the gym is Angie, a trans-fighter who idolizes Nong Toom. Sylvie is almost a kind of living connection between the two.

Yeah, we watched that a long time ago. The star of the film was training at Kru Lek's Muay Chaiya gym in Bangkok when we visited there. I can't say the movie made much of an impression on me though.

This was just a spectacular fight that had Sylvie and me yelling at the screen. WMC 57 kg belt between Phetdapee (one of Sylvie's favorite fighters) and Elena Mischuk - Jan 28, 2017 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYQgRY_ddbM

Lisa almost took that fight. Ticha wanted nothing to do with that right hand, and was starting to fade. But then in classic Thai female style she waited for the optimum moment and performed dominance brilliantly (that head jerk in the clinch was a thing of beauty in terms of dramatic impact and timing).

There are not really that many Muay Thai movies, and even fewer good ones! Even movies that purport to include Muay Thai, like a fighter with that style, often don't fight in that style. We recently watched this all-female Fight Club, Kung Fu mash had a "Muay Thai" representative, but almost no Muay Thai (this was the trailer, the "Muay Thai" fighter not depicted): There seems to be basically only ONE truly outstanding Muay Thai movie, that being Ong Bak (it captured an ideology of Muay Thai), even the sequels didn't do as much. Ong Bak just had an essentialism about Muay Thai history, its rural connections, a critique of Bangkok society that was profoundly simple. Nothing like it. The director of Ong Bak's Chocolate hardly included Muay Thai moves in his well-received Chocolate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrVvRkDxBaM It's kind of amazing that there has been no new Muay Thai great action flick, as almost all of Hollywood has appropriated Muay Thai for its heroes and villains. You can hardly watch a Hollywood fight scene and not see a Muay Thai teep, or reverse elbow.

I don't know anyone who was taking anti-malaria in Chiang Mai, and we lived there for 2 years. Not going to say nobody was, but it did not seem to be a thing.

I was just asking Sylvie how many Thais we've met that seemed a little punch drunk. Only about 3, and we've been exposed to a lot of ex-fighters. One was actually primarily a boxer (lower level WBC title), one a middling long term Thai fighter, and one a big name former big time Thai boxer (but who had fought in the west as well, and also in other martial art tournaments). That's not a lot ex-Thai fighters. There are two big reasons I can think of. 5 Round fights are much shorter than most boxing matches, and because there are so many weapons and the nature of Thai aesthetics, the head is not targeted in the same way. Almost all strikes are to the head in boxing. Body shots are mostly designed to get to the head. But in Muay Thai there are lots of ways to score other than hitting the head. And even most elbow strikes are meant to cut rather than bludgeon. Another factor is training. From what I've read concussion syndrome is more closely related to the repeated smaller blows that occur in training, and not so much in single big shots in a fight. Boxing training (often with head gear which does not really protect against concussive force) often involves sitting in the pocket and taking lots of deflected blows (blocked or partially slipped). Thais don't really train like this. They do spar hard at times, but it isn't lots and lots of head-hunting sparring.

Yeah, this was a very difficult thing for Sylvie. We lived about an hour away from any Muay Thai training at all, and we didn't have much money so even the drives were expensive. We did it, but there was always the sense that we were stuck. Sylvie bought a heavy bag and a wave master and shadowed, but it wasn't ideal. This is probably the real reason why Sylvie started putting up all her training with Master K. There must be so many people in the world who just can't reach great training. This frustration grew - I wrote about the entire process of trying to overcome it here. And finally just lead to coming to Thailand for 6 weeks. And then a commitment to moving here for at least a year. When you are stuck without training it becomes a passion to get it. That's why Sylvie shares so much stuff. She's been there, in a small town, stuck without training or training partners.

This is a nice hip stretch Sylvie has used, perhaps you could do it with a table or such: If you are drawn to Muay Thai because of its practicality, getting in with a gym that has a healthy approach to sparring may be one of the most important things you do.

Just throwing this out there: an interesting thing would be to build a criteria list for judging/recommending gyms, maybe something like: Active Young Thai Fighters - young, developing Thai fighters are a sign that the gym is a living Thai-focused gym that does not only prioritize western tourist, commercial interests Active of Top Stadia Thai Fighters - some people find this to be important. It's great to have high level examples to look at and imitate. Convenience of Location - how hard is it to get to? Surrounding Location - what is the surrounding location like? Is it hospitable? Enjoyable to live around? Gym Atmosphere - what does the gym feel like, it's tone? Food - If food is served (or local food options) what is it like? Fight Opportunities - how easily can you get fights, and what kinds of fights? And how invested is the gym in finding you fights, and why? Female Safety and Respect - is there is history of respecting female fighters and students? are there reports of unwanted advances? are females given top training and enough fight opportunities? Ownership - Management - sometimes management/ownership can be a big positive for a gym. It speaks to the gym's motivations. It can also help smooth difficulties. Language - How much Thai do you need to know? Is English spoken? Are there other western language connections? (Some gyms have specific ties to other countries...Sweden, Italy, etc) Trainer Stability/Turnover - this can go two ways. Sometimes trainers never turnover, and become really entrenched in negatives or lack of caring. too much turnover can suggest unstable management. Quality of Equipment/Facility - some people find new equipment important. Cleanliness - gym cleanliness can reflect the quality of care invested by owners/management. Some people also find this to be very important. Clinch Training - does the gym provide substantial clinch training, practice? Pad Work Training - what is padwork like? Is it consistent? Between different trainers? Technical Instruction - is there much technical instruction or correction? some people really value and look for this. Privates - Are privates offered worth the cost? And do you have to pay for privates in order to get good instruction/training? Training Partners - Are there training partners for your size? Are they Thai? Affordability - How does the gym compare in price to others of its kind and location, short term, long term. Long Term Stay Opportunities - If you want to stay longer term, are there benefits? Discounts, sponsorship? Living Quarters/Options - Is there onsite lodging, if so what is it like? What are nearby apartment options like, cost and quality? Farang Gym Culture - Is there a long term western gym culture? If so, what is it like? Off-Time Entertainment Options - What are the things to do on off-days? Maybe add any aspects you find important if I missed any?

I believe we watched that doc too. I do think that this re-sexualization of female agency is an essential western response to the real developments in real power for women: legal, financial, political, commercial, etc. This new potency which is unsettling the legacy ruling class is recaptured and embodied in the FFT trope. She is everywhere. Comic books, MMA, the proliferation of the Dominatrix (in a variety of aesthetic forms). All of this to come to grips with...and get a grip on female ascendance. This does feel like a natural (problematic word, I know) response to this shift, a re-integration, subsuming the new. It makes it very difficult to take perspective on. It is both liberty and not-liberty.

12-31 Good article on the Rousey disappearance. To me this was just a terribly sad event. Long ago did Ronda Rousey lose me as a fan - and I was a fan - it probably was when she viciously attacked Cris Cyborg's femininity that I just felt that she had lost her way as a person. She was no longer the Door-Opener. She was the Door Guardian. But to see her lose like this just rocked me. Not for her, but for female fighting in general. Clearly this was a person who trained damn hard for this fight. Her rocked-out body was put on display, as a kind proof of work, but as she wobbled under what really were endless, and pretty basic 1-2, 2-1 combinations and her aura of not only possible invincibility - which was already gone - but her impression as an actually highly skilled fighter just melted away, strike after strike, what was exposed was not the fraud of Ronda, but really just how far female fighting has to go. There was a HUGE hole in front of Ronda's left side and Nunes drove a bus through it. Ronda had no belief in her front side, and never had. She was a Roman solider without a shield, but nobody before really had exposed it, not like this. This is nearly a literal example of The Emperor's Clothes, where "clothes" are the techniques you wear into battle. This whole time she had been fighting like this and nobody really saw, not like this. I'm sure the hyperbole is going to be lavished on Nunes, who knows, she may be vaulted into the ether like her sister Joanna Champion, who is hailed as The Best Striker in the UFC, by some, for her rather elementary but relentless 1-2s. People will want to elevate her because it would help explain Rousey's loss. They did the same with Holm. No, Nunes shows amazing energy and heart, is skilled in many ways, but is not an elite striker in the general sense of what boxers can do. What she did to Rousey was basically to drive that bus straight through that hole. Female fighting is still in its Rock-Paper-Sissors stage, where if you can do one thing pretty well you can beat another person who does another thing pretty well, and you can look really good doing it. But what is really sad to me is that Rousey clearly trained hard. She must have. It's in her character as much as we can know. But she trained around the huge hole right in front of her on her left side, failing to even address it in a significant way under pressure. For her that is tragic, because this fight will make her look like a fraud. It will diminish so much of what she accomplished, and really the accomplishments of those who lost to her as well. She was made to look UN-skilled. I can't imagine what this fight will do to her own enjoyment of her own career for the rest of her life, especially under the withering and unsavory hatred of MMA fans, many of whom will never let her live down that she sat on the throne for so long...and then looked like this. All because of training. What we saw out there was simply her training and nothing more. It didn't have to be this way, that is what is sad to me. More of my thoughts on the state of female fighting, and the "Natural" Inferiority of Women

We've had limited experience fighting in Isaan, maybe Sylvie's had 15 fights? The experience though is that things can be very chaotic/unpredictable, and you really are in the hands whoever is representing you in the community. If whoever that is doesn't want to take you to a match up for a smaller side bet, for whatever reason, you really have no options. You basically have to fight the fights lined up, or you don't fight. Sylvie's had at times some undependable people representing her, and had been given very dubious opponents, or had big name opponents not show up at all. And she's had some great people representing her and had fantastic, challenging opponents. But this is a world without much control from the fighter's end, one that lines up with local interests. At least that is my experience of it. Just as a thought though, if you do find yourself fighting a girl with 80 fights the way to play it would be to fight defensively, teep, retreat, etc. Generally...and this is very general...if you don't press the action the action will be subdued. And then if you feel comfortable late, go for the win. If you don't, just play it off. And if she comes hard, grab for the clinch. But from what I'm hearing from you, if I'm hearing correctly...its your boyfriend/trainer who is trying to put you up against more advanced girls, and he is the one who is putting down the sidebet. Is that right?

That, from 4 years ago, is Gor. Twin Gym in Lampang. We had never seen it, but the girl in blue Cherry Gor. Twin Gym was a top, top Thai fighter for a while. She even flew to Japan as a young teen to fight Erika Kamimura. Sylvie has fought her a few times, a couple of years ago, giving up some weight. It seemed that she had retired or just stopped fighting, but then we saw that Cherry won a 48kg Gold in a Thailand tournament this month. Very cool to see.

What gym/town are you fighting out? Are you aware of the role gambling is playing in your fight match-ups? Isaan match-ups are almost always driven by the side bet. If this is the case it would be a pretty bad idea to throw your fight. Also, are you fighting opponent's your size?

I suspect that this was more a cross-marketing campaign from the studios and DC, more than a need from the UN, though one article pointed out that they used Angry Birds for a one-day campaign...maybe they are actively pursuing mass media counterparts for their awareness campaigns. A reasonable character might be Korra of the Last Avatar series. Not only is she more realistically dressed, she blends ethnicities, though probably is not without critics.

Why would that be ill-advised. For me it comes back down to the experience of the woman. We are talking about women's rights here, right? I cannot quite get my head wrapped around the incredible irony that an armed police force is forcing a woman to strip down, and to BE more sexy. It doesn't really matter if the police (or law makers) feel this is their motive. What matters is that the woman who is submitted to it experiences it. It is a violation of her modesty (let's assume she holds traditional values about herself). You are forcing a woman to bare herself. This is not categorically different, at least in my mind, than forcing women to experience all kinds of things that they find violating, or humiliating, but that men (just to generalize) or others of the culture, just find to be no big deal. "Hey baby, you should take it as a compliment", or "It's just a joke...lighten up." or..."Just a little advice, you'll probably do better in the company if you wear a little lipstick" are all of this sort. You have authority deriving itself from what is customary, often with a strong skew towards male experiences, imposing itself upon a woman's sense of her own sexual decency. It doesn't matter if the object is just to remove religiously coded symbols, if the imposed removal (or imposition) is experienced as a sexualization by the woman, then these are all of the same class. [edit: added] In fact I would argue that the hijab brings us full circle. One of the more notable cross-cultural difficulties that the IFMA faced was whether to allow the hijab as official dress for Muay Thai fights (they ultimately did allow it). Many argue that it represents a dis-empowerment of women, but others argue that by taking on this symbolic modesty Muslim women then are freed to empower themselves through fighting. I'm not sure who is more constrained: A western fighter who doesn't really want to take "sexy" photos with glossy lipstick, suggestive poses and belts all draped around her, because she has to be a sexy bad ass in order to be given opportunities in the world as a fighter, or a Muslim fighter who must don a hijab to indicate her modesty if she is going to transgress so many customary gender norms. My point is BOTH are being forced to conform to male expectations and ideals...and that is due to how each culture and custom hyper-sexualizes the female body, and thus ultimately the female subject. And equally so, there are women who feel empowered by being super sexy, and women who feel empowered by modesty.

That might have been the technical, legal reason, but this does ignore the very subtle fact that the removal of clothing, and the showing of the female body is essentially the customary dress on a French beach. This is "normal". Everyone does it, it is a socially sexualized place to a large degree, where bodies are watched and judged for attractiveness. I somehow doubt that 4 police officers would have approached this Muslim woman if she was wearing her burkini, walking down the street. It was only in contrast to the public (quietly sexualized) norm that she stood out. I'd also say that because a traditional Muslim perspective codifies the body differently than we do in the west, forcing a woman to strip off her clothing and make her arms bare is indeed forcing her to "be more sexy" (or expose parts of her body which may incite sexual response). This really is no different than if western woman was forced to remove her bikini top...from the perspective of the woman who is submitted to this demand. It is ostensibly a police demand to "be more sexy" for her. re: "I think they used WW as she is an already famous pop culture figure." Of course, but she is a famous western pop culture figure. Do you think she is famous, and embraced for her values in Kurdistan? Or in Somalia? I imagine that the UN would want someone who transcends culture to some degree, and does not represent one. re: "I think it is necessary and possible that all types of womens dress is allowed and that includes sexy." I think that there is a difference between what is allowed, and what is celebrated. I think it would be awesome if sartorial choice and autonomy could be celebrated, but there are differing standards in cultures. I guess I would ask this: Would a topless female character, with very enhanced breasts and prominent nipples be suitable for a UN campaign to raise awareness about female violence? I'm not saying such a character would categorically not be, but I am saying that we are very accustomed to the state of undress, and hypersexualizing of female "bad ass" women. It's not just a case of: Let Wonder Woman wear what she wants. Here is an interesting example of another woman who chooses to wear less when she goes into battle, humorously juxtaposed below: I'm not sure that we can, or even should, separate these kinds of by-men-for-men illustrative examples, when discussing the kinds of powerful and widespread violence against women that the UN is trying to make us aware of. This is not even considering the fact that so many woman don't have these kinds of bodies, and we should ask how much we want to hold these bodies types as ideals of female power. I cannot help but feel that rather universal by-men-for-men depictions like the one above are connected to the below (taken from a UN UNiTE Campaign): It just feels like the issues of liberation are ethically, and perhaps rightfully, being drawn in two directions, enough that it doesn't really make sense for the campaign to be represented by a character who problemizes ideals of liberty for many committed to the cause.

She really isn't a Muay Thai fighter. She uses some Muay Thai techniques, but really is a Karate fighter who fights Muay Thai rules.