Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu

Lawrence, here is a good example of what I'm talking about with clinch. It's Caley Reece who is probably the most accomplished western female clinch fighter in the world. Because of her ex-fighter husband who spent a lot of time in Thailand she trains regularly in a very Thai style, and her clinch is probably the reason she's been so dominant in fights, especially against westerners - she owned Tiffany van Soest in the clinch, who herself no doubt trained in it. But her clinch knowledge doesn't compare to Thais. In this video of hers shared by MTG she is controlled by someone, not through strength but through technique. She herself talks about the mystery of how smaller Thais can get the better of her - Sylvie will attest, it feels like magic. These kinds of differences play out, in less advanced techniques in western fights all the time. A female fighter who knows to take the inside position and control the arms against a fighter who doesn't will appear much stronger. A fighter who understands how to lock their hands can own a fighter who doesn't. And in a more rudimentary version, a fighter who can take the Thai plumb (a position which is actually rarely dominantly used in Thailand because there are so many counters to it) will cream a fighter who doesn't know how to get out of it. A lot of the time in the west in terms of clinch it is just one female fighter knowing one or two things the other doesn't. But it doesn't even mean that they are a strong clinch fighter. Fighters with a little bit of knowledge can go a long way. Back to the issue of availability of training, even in Thailand it is very unequal. The highest form of the clinch art is in this country, but Sylvie has fought maybe 70 female opponents, most of them larger than her, and only a handful have had the technique to stay with her in the clinch. Some of it is Sylvie's strength, but most of it is just technical, stuff that comes from training. Most Thai female fighters are not trained in the clinch anywhere near the level that their male counterparts are. And Sylvie has just been training in a real Thai style for a little over a year now.

I actually asked Sylvie, who was next to me, when wrote my response. She indeed is able to neutralize Jee Jaa now with size, strength and new knowledge, but that is simply a change from being dominated. Jee Jaa, despite 10 kg, was able to put Sylvie down on the ground pretty easily in the beginning. That is why I characterized the current state between them the way I did "is able to hold her own against Sylvie, and even out perform her, despite both a weight and a strength difference" - Jee Jaa used to do far more than hold her own. Now thing are closer, showing how important knowledge and skills learned are - Jee Jaa has probably gained 2 kg in the last year. The way Sylvie put it is that Jee Jaa would definitely "out point" her if they fought a clinch battle now, which is a big deal in how Thai fights are fought, but that she would have a good chance of KOing her with one very strong knee. They basically are even but with different advantages. re: Somchai being the most commons men’s name) If you watch the vid, firstly he doesn’t look Thai, secondly he doesn’t move like a Nak Muay. I didn't say he was Thai, as in a fighter of Thailand, at all, if you got that impression I didn't phrase myself well - I meant that he looked to be of Thai decent. I rather suspected that he had undergone some Thai-style training in the clinch (sessions of barehanded clinch with more skilled partners about your same size, with some regularity), perhaps at the hands of Thai trainers who had immigrated, but only a wild guess. This isn't the same at all to being Thai raised as a fighter (he has very few fights for a fighter his age, on the Thai scale), but it would put him ahead of whatever clinch Lucia had trained in. I don't see anything in her clinch that suggested that she was a clinch fighter. If she were clinching with a Thai male, of Thailand, of that size I suspect she would have been handled very easily in the clinch. As to the name, I'm not sure there is much evidence either way. Thai fight names are also adopted names with very similar meanings. If you do get information on him, that would be great though. But bottom line, strength differences are not as important as skill differences, especially when one partner has little knowledge. You see it all the time in Thailand, very strong, partially clinch trained, large western fighters being tossed around by relatively small Thais in clinch in practice rings. Very few western women have a strong foundation in clinch. But as this is the whole fight there doesn't seem that much clinch going on at all.

The (other) GOAT Sugar Ray Robinson was a dancer, a street dancer as a kid, in fact when he retired at first he became a song and dance man. Here he is dancing with Gene Kelly:

I haven't watched the whole fight in a while, but I didn't see a lot of clinch in that fight, especially as Lawrence presented it. But I do think that in the few clinch clips I saw it was fair to say that Somchai was more skilled in clinch, likely more trained in clinch in the traditional Thai way. He looks Thai, and his gym "Lumpini" in NZ was probably populated with Thais to some degree. Understanding off-balances can make you appear very strong. It's probably too much to say that those clips were showing some definitive muscle mass strength difference. (Btw, did anyone else think that Lucia probably had a weight advantage here?) Drawing from our own experiences in Thailand, we have Sylvie and Phetjee Jaa clinching in training. Sylvie has 8 kilos on her now, and has had a year of twice a day clinch training in the Thai style, and is probably physically the strongest female Muay Thai fighter in the world at her weight. Sylvie definitively a clinch fighter and wins almost all her fights against Thai fighters in the clinch, even when they have a size advantage. Jee Jaa was raised basically as a boy since she was 7 in term of training in the clinch (very, very rare) and is able to hold her own against Sylvie, and even out perform her, despite both a weight and a strength difference. The knowledge gap is huge, and the physical differences between Sylvie and Jee Jaa are much more pronounced than those between Somchai and Lucia. On your second point, this is really big. Yes, there are physiological differences, across the board, by average, but built on top of these are very strong magnifying factors exactly as you describe. Talent pool and training, not to mention ideological expectation (athletics are mental), which make those physical difference appear enormous. Your example of clinch here is a really interesting one. Even if Lucia was trained in Thailand it is very unlikely that she would have had the training in clinch that the average "Somchai" would. And even if a Somchai did have a small physical advantage in clinch, what really would make the biggest difference would be the training and technique. Generally I resist essentialist arguments about gender performance differences, especially when they are grounded in averages. Yes, there may be on average built in advantages between genders, but the art of performance is learning how to turn an opponent's advantage into a disadvantage, and discovering ways to enhance your own qualities. For women I think there are much bigger hurdles to overcome than physiological ones.

I think differences in clinch knowledge can prove HUGE. A good example is how Sylvie beat Saya Ito last year. Sylvie hardly knew clinch (unlike now when she is much improved), but she knew it much better than Saya, who probably trained in it lightly. These differences can make an average clincher look very good. You see a lot of this in the west, I believe. But to say that someone trained in clinch may be the difference between having taken Italian for a year in High School, and speaking Italian. Dutch style fighting tends to not be clinch oriented, and the real art comes from training in a Thai style, every day - it's a particular mode of development. Most western approaches to clinch in Muay Thai are abbreviated in technique, and then women in training usually are usually experiencing a dilution of that.

This is the next piece for the Asian Correspondent on race In Thailand Black is "Ugly", Racist or Misguided. Lots of coverage of the different arguments about why racist (or racialist) stereotypes exist in Thailand, about the image above: Last week a Thai children’s teaching resource appeared online. A poster, which is a vocabulary learning tool, shows pictures of objects and people presented next to a corresponding word. ‘Handsome’, we learn, looks something like a cartoonish Korean pop star; ‘beautiful’, a western babe; and ‘pretty’ looks something like a young female Japanese anime character. Meanwhile, ‘ugly’ is depicted as what looks like a young African man, replete with diamond stud bling earrings. At the bottom of the poster it is written in Thai: “A way to thinking and teaching.” If such an arrantly offensive description exists in a children’s ‘thinking and teaching’ aid, then what kind of thinking and teaching happens in some Thai households? Thai social critic Kaewmala explains much of it in terms of xenophobic nationalism and class: “Thais have a strong dislike and distrust of dark-skinned Burmese and Indians, and can find little beauty in dark skinned people, poor foreigners from neighboring countries, poorer fellow Thais from Isaan or Thai-Malay Muslims in the South, or Africans. Racism in the Thai cultural context is more intertwined with the chauvinistic attitude based on ultra-nationalism in Thai education which teaches us that we are better than our neighbors, and the Bangkok-centric worldview, interwoven with persistent discrimination based on class, urban vs rural and social-status hierarchies.” There is also a link to an article Being Black in Thailand which presents first person perspectives of black experiences. All in all, a very good continuation of the discussion.

This is a major difference between western boxing habits, and Muay Thai (at least the Muay Thai of Thailand). In boxing it is very common to protect the body with the elbows and forearms. You aren't protecting against elbows at closer range so your guard can be lower, for one thing, and a crouch can be advantageous in boxing for many reasons, both offensively and defensively. Lots of westerns come to Thailand and favor this habit. But in Muay Thai the body is mostly protected directly by the knees and shins, and the guard stays higher. It's a very different defensive posture. This is related to some degree also to the hips. One of the biggest challenges I think for a westerner in Thailand is learning how to push the hips forward as part of defensive maneuvers, especially, at closer range. This goes against a lot of western instincts which basically are inclined to pull the groin back (to safety) and to hunch. It can make a bad habit in Muay Thai. One of the concerns of training boxing is getting comfortable with an ass-back defense. There is a lot of variation in Muay Thai styles, so this isn't universal, but one of the biggest hurdles westerns have in Thailand is the orientation of the hips in both defense and attack. Thais learn early on that pushing the hips forward can be very advantageous and safe. Adding to the western bias towards the hunch is that Greco-Roman wrestling also can favor hip-back, ass-out positions (very different than most Thai clinch positions) so with western boxing and wrestling combined the tendency of the ass-back can get in the way of a lot of Thai Muay Thai techniques, at least at introductory levels. You need to be able to toggle the hips, out and in - you see Saenchai humorously do this in fights, and be prepared to use your shins defensively.

Western boxing has been influencing Muay Thai from the modern beginning. We tend to think of Muay Thai as "pure", but the very first permanent ring in Bangkok in the early 1900s featured western boxing, and there has been western boxing in Rajadamnern and Lumpinee stadia from the start. They are of course two different arts, but Thais don't seem to see them as contradictory. Samart Payakaroon, who some consider the best Muay Thai fighter of recent eras, was also a WBC boxing champion. But there are schools and styles of boxing, and some may be less conducive to Muay Thai than others.

The highlights of the fight:

Hopefully Sylvie will jump on later tonight, but you don't need to use a towel at all. You can heat the area first, and then rub with your hands, then passively heat again. The heat gets everything open, the massage drains the area. Also Sylvie was showed by I think Wung that you can use a glass bottle (like your coach said) but with very warm water. But not ice. Heat does the healing after the first 24-48.

One fight description: The women touch gloves and Van Soest is the first to attack with an inside thigh kick. Krol is being a little cautious as the American is being the aggressor. The Pole looks out matched as Van Soest’s blows are landing clean. Krol attempts a spinning back fist that doesn’t land but she remains focused as Van Soest lands a jab. The second round is underway as the touch’em up again. This time it is Krol whois on the attack but Van Soest answers with a side kick. Van Soest is the smaller fighter, but every time Krol makes a move she makes her pay for it. Van Soest fights her way to the inside and lands several knees in the clinch before the round comes to an end. Van Soest has Krol on the ropes and is landing knees in the clinch until the ref breaks them up leading to Krol landing a front kick to Van Soest’s face and then another to the chest. Van Soest lands a Superman…or a Supergirl punch rather leading to one of her spinning back elbows. Krol tries to land a spinning back elbow of her own, but with very little power behind it, it doesn’t affect the American. Krol starts the round with a switch kick but Van Soest lands a low kick knocking Krol to the canvas. Van Soest is dominating the fourth round just like she has been the previous three. Fifth and final round is now underway, both fighters are showing signs of fatigue, it’s now down to who wants it more as they hug it out before the feet start flying. Van Soest has Krol’s leg while pressed against the ropes and lands a right cross almost knocking the Pole out of the ring. Van Soest is letting the elbows fly as the referee gives Krol a standing 8-count for not being able to defend herself in the corner. With 10 clicks of the clock Van Soest is still on the attack as the fight comes to an end. In the eyes of the audience, Van Soest is in the winner as she ascends the ropes and bows to the crowd. Your winner by unanimous decision and still Lion FIght Featherweight Champion, Tiffany Van Soest!

Thanks Dana. What I'm interested in is body mapping, the Efference Copy. I sense that when trauma happens to us, especially violent invasive events, our body maps become redrawn. This involves our virtual selves, the copies we use to project ourselves into space and predict how we will interact with other/s (objects, events, spaces), which influences our sense of agency. I suspect that we have different body maps for different thresholds of arousal/intensity, and that fighting and training to fight forces a kind of regrowth of body maps that have been broken or amputated in some ways. As fighters with impaired body maps attempt to train actions under extreme duress, and they enter into those thresholds, it is as if certain limbs or pathways of action are being grown again - under the auspices of the art. But this is very slow work. One of the most frustrating aspects of becoming a fighter, for some people, is: "Why can't I do x or y, when under pressure?!" The harder they push to do it, the more impossible it becomes. I believe, that at least for some people, they simply do not have the body map to complete those actions, under those intense affects. It's like asking someone to take a step with a 3rd foot, a limb they don't have. It is literally off the grid. I could see how memories, conscious or otherwise, play a role in these maps because they return us to primordial states, but here the idea is more about two-fold thinking. Train bringing yourself back down into affective states where you have a more complete body map. Two, through the art itself and stress inoculations grow your impaired body map at higher states. Literally grow your virtual limbs under pressure.

Teresa really looked focused and intense, but an unfortunate series of turns/slips in the 4th turned the tide and she just couldn't recapture the momentum. Good fight. Kwanchai's cross-face in clinch effective early on.

Caley Reece had no difficulty defeating Tiffany using the clinch on Lionfight. But Martyna (or even Bernise Alldis, another opponent of Tiffany's) isn't a clinch fighter on the level of Caley, imo. Nothing against either of them, but Caley is a notch above in the clinch. That being said, the task is even harder now as Tiffany looks like she's improving in the clinch as well.

then Valentina Shevchenko VS Anke Van Gestle (Belgium)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gsY0cdVDPk Valentina shows her explosive combination style.

This is pretty cool. Sylvie put this up last night on Facebook. The Thai national team of women all training at Dejrat gym, at least for the day. It would seem that the gym is unusually and beautifully focused on Thai female fighters. Probably both experienced with training women (important) and connected with promoting them. These are some of the best female fighters in their weight class in Thailand. Doesn't mean there won't be hurdles, but this seems like an awesome sign. From left: Chommanee (57kg), Lommanee/Nong Naen (48kg), Duannapa (63.5kg), Nong Gif (60kg), Namdtan (54kg), Front Row, from left: Loma (45kg) and Nong Brai (51kg).

Sorry, just saw this. Young girls are pre-sexual (in many ways, though still have to go under the bottom rope), so they can get solid training in clinch if the gym cares enough about them. Because the earning power of girls is so much less than boys, it seems that the girls get the best training when they are part of their family gym, the family (usually the father) has an investment in them. Don't know about the Buriram gym. We've seen two girls in training. A young girl, Bai, at Petchrungruang who at times trains right beside the boys, in pretty tough, but then fades from training. Her dad is a pad holder. And Phetjee Jaa who's become the superstar at her gym, and the main provider for her family. But generally females have a purely secondary place in most Thai gyms.

I thought she did a good job, she mostly teeped. It's more about how frequent mismatches occur. I imagine though that for female fighters as big as Baars who fights up to 67 kg, it's hard to find Thais large enough, and skilled enough in Thailand. Perhaps why a fighter like Julie Kitchen seldom fought in Thailand, and when she did it was against a westerner. (Though I'm guessing, I don't know the weight class.)

https://www.facebook.com/574393418/videos/10153425956413419/ Google Translate: The past two weeks I have been in Thailand. It would be for vacation. But because I'm in America July 10 would actually fight and was still "fight ready." Am I just going by train. I asked Rosalie and Sakrungroj to arrange a fight. Well last Friday was so far. I would against a strong lady from Bangkok. 50 Fights had already turned and she could stairs very well and she would do English boxing ..... Then came into the hall, I saw someone who looked a lot like her picture, but she looked more like a boy. And had made considerable sturdy legs. But it was her. I got a real Thai massage with preparation and ritual. Really super to agree. Well the main fight was announced so I go in that ring. Here is the video of the fight ...... Unfortunately, I did not much satisfaction can get out but I did it again ff race had feeling. On to the next Feels like a typical farang vs Thai mismatch. The video makes me sad, honestly, though surely nothing in Jorina's control. Once again, Thai refs know what they are doing. Re-watch the fight just looking at the ref from the :45 mark on. He's on it.

I ran into this article on the 2012 WMC World Title fights in Phuket. Warning, it is an extremely sharp-tongued, and very likely to some, offensive rant. It's hard to know if the author had axes to grind with specific fighters or gyms, but to those not there it does give a sense that all was not right with this event. In fact the Claire Haigh title fight is a fight that actually spurred Caley Reece to retire (the first time). By Caley's admission that world title meant a ton and it really hit her hard to have it given away. Since then organizations seem to have adopted the "interim" title as the way to go, something they don't always make clear in publicizing events where belts seem to be fought for in every fight. After this event it feels like the WMC started to recede from female fighting somehow, and the WPMF has stepped forward some. The WMC once was the dominant body. Of course the fighters just fight, no fault to them. You fight who is put in front of you. And running sactioning bodies in Thailand must be something like herding cats, with everyone looking out for individual interests, and exercising leverage to some degree. It's just to say that maybe progress is needed. The above fight is the fight the author is most disturbed by, Tracy Lockwood vs Gerry Rawai. The final round indeed was cut short, only about 1:10 in length.

Of course. :) just link a back here if you could.

This is great. It sums up the whole fight, which turned out to be something of a blow out. He completely took Dekkers' weapons off line and made a very talented fighter look one-dimensional, and did so with only a few tools himself. I loved that high left hand guard he used, gluing his hand up there from the beginning. You could tell he came in with a plan. And your last GIF is so symbolic. It must have been a very frustrating fight for Dekkers.

A different avenue than what I was exploring, but certainly worth considering.

Some of my favorite: Looks like Saya was doing well in the clinch. Did you see the fight Charlie? Hoping that the clinch work she was doing with O. Meekhun and Sylvie has helped her in fights.