Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu

This round is a good example of pressure elbow fighting from Yodkhunpon, how the misses are all incorporated into a generalized pressure:

There are probably some caveats to this, but I'm really interested in a family of techniques that tend to be neglected because if you throw them in isolation they really don't seem to be all that effective, but if you really throw them repeated, with volume, they are not only effective, against some classes of opponents he can be unstoppable. Low kicks are maybe the most obvious of these. You don't see a lot of low kick fighters in Muay Thai's Thailand mostly because they don't score very highly, and maybe because they feel like a kind of "low hanging fruit" blow? But this is exactly the kind of technique I'm talking about. You don't throw 1 or 2 low kicks. You throw 15. And you'll see that they'll have no effect, no effect, no effect. And then bam, the fight is over. There are lots of examples of this in Muay Thai (despite the technique being relatively shunned), a favorite is our friend JR's fight up in Chiangmai: It's really to say - and I guess this is the meaning behind this post - the results are just so damn harsh, the risk so relatively low, the only reason why I can imagine that low kicks are not a widely used attack is simply that illusion that they aren't effective just when trying them out one at a time. Many fighters test them, play with them and move on, and never take them heavily into their arsenal. As with all these techniques I'm talking about, these are volume commitments. You need to feast heavy on them because their efficacy comes in loads of use. They'll just look like they are doing nothing. And then they bust through. Another one that comes to mind is liver hunting shots. Another fight-ender that will look like it's doing nothing at all, until it suddenly does. In fact the decay time for liver shots and leg kicks feels the same. Nothing, nothing, nothing. Now fight over. When the sweet spot happens, finished. And like leg kicks, there is a cumulative effect. The body starts to swell, sensitivity grows, and the target you have to hit to end it all increases. The number of fighters who liver hunt is pretty damn small in Muay Thai, given that this is a knockout blow (incidentally, I strike I suspect is much more effective against big weight cut opponents). In the end though, it feels like this strike fails in popularity for the same reasons. It just doesn't seem like it is doing something, until it does. A third high-repetition technique that lacks some in popularity are elbows. It's fair to say that elbows are popular in the mind's-eye. They are a flashy, attractive part of Muay Thai, but they have a repetition dimension that is pretty rarely explored. One elbow, two. They either land or they don't. 5 elbows, 10 elbows in a span just break down the guard and eventually get through. They are blocked, blocked, blocked, and then not. There is a feeling of being exposed when you throw elbows, so I can see why they are not often thrown in bunches, but I suspect it is more than that. It's the same sense that they might not be effective, or maybe a lack of trust that after one is blocked, the 3rd or the 5th in high volume won't get through. It will. The fighter who really revolutionized this kind of attack was Yodkhunpon The Elbow Hunter of 100 Stitches. He was the first high profile Thai fighter willing to throw elbow on top of elbow (which stylistically was seen as brutish, femeu fighters preferring the well-timed, painterly elbow). He was willing to throw 20 in a round, knowing that they would eventually get through, or at least seriously distort the opponent and open them up to knees. Yodkhunpon teaching some of his high-repetition philosophy: In the above he links them to knees and other strikes, but really what he wants is a high-metronome elbow attack. One that expects to hit guard, break guard, turtle the opponent. What I find interesting is that each of these strikes are more or less unstoppable when heavily used in high volume, at least against the kinds of opponents 99.999% of anyone reading this would ever face. These are really devastating attacks. There are definite psychological hurdles in becoming a leg, liver or elbow hunter, but he biggest one seems to be belief. Belief that the 5th one, the 20th one, the 40th one will get through (or, the knowledge that all that banked action has distorted your opponent so severely there are many ways to take advantage of it). I'm tempted to add, at least for Muay Thai, uppercuts, to the list. It's not quite the same as the 3 above, but it took is a somewhat effective strike that in high-volume has a "break through" quality. Fighters that commit to uppercuts, especially in Muay Thai where defense against them is less trained, can be very, very potent. I'd love to hear your thoughts on these Unstoppable Strikes, and hear if you have others in mind that have the same kind of "break through" quality, and probably should be much more popular if people simply believed in them more.

We're pretty far removed from gyms in America, but Michael Corley, who is the head of the USMF, not too long ago newly opened Heritage Muay Thai in Houston: https://goo.gl/maps/LU5HHcjBgWeiuezm6 Given that there is a lot of emphasis on youth and growing students in the USMF I would imagine that they'd be great with new students. Maybe something to check out?

This is the hidden future of female Muay Thai. This ethic, this world bond and bubbling up of shared failure, shared technique, shared culture, in the hands of 12-15 year olds. This exists in parkour because all of this was put online, cross-connecting, building a lifestyle. It was made possible because it grew out of male-dominated skate culture, x-culture, and then parkour and now Gtramp culture, but using social media networks a genuine life force is created. Female Muay Thai has much to learn from this.

The new software updates to the forum have a very handy, fast way to get updated on all the activity that has happened on the forum since you were last here. Especially on mobile. You'll see the little newspaper icon at the top (circled red in the screen shot). It will give you a super browse-able list of new comments and posts. As you can see by the green circled item you can filter everything down too. Additionally, in your profile settings you can choose how you want your notifications will occur, and you can set up following particular forum members and other cool stuff. There is also a very robust private messaging system in the forum you can use to cross-communicate. There are so many Easter Eggs in this software I'm provably just scratching the surface. If you run into something cool share it with everyone, if you would.

Very good catch! He, amazingly, also was Pi Nu's trainer (Sylvie's Kru in Pattaya). He used to travel in a circuit back in the day and would come and train the Petchrungruang boys regularly when he would be in Pattaya. Sounds as if he was a kind of traveling Arjan. He was training one of the greatest fighters of the generation (Kaensak in Bangkok), and also some boys in a small, family gym in Pattya? And how many others? As a side note, so out of sheer coincidence Sylvie's ended up training under two of his students, both Kaesak who was her trainer in NJ before she moved to Thailand, and Kru Nu now, which is such an unexpected, accidental lineage. What is interesting, if I have the story right, when Kru Nu's son Bank was starting to make waves last year at Lumpinee Kru Kimyu offered to come and help train him for an upcoming fight, if he could make it, but it never came to fruition because of his health/age. So we are really on the cusp of Kru Kimyu ending his influence on fighters. Sylvie says though that he's come over to Bank's corner in two recent important Lumpinee fights, so he's hanging out at Lumpinee. (Edit to add: It's also kind of beautiful and amazing to see this subterrainian connection between two gyms, Dejrat Gym and Petchrungruang Gym, two gyms you would never from the outside connect. There is a thin teaching line in Kru Kimyu, and also now in Sylvie there is a student line as well, as Arjan Surat has been a heavy influence on her. It's in the fabric of relationships.)

If true that would really be something. We had heard that Suk had fought into his 50s. It's hard to guess what stories might have passed down, or even if Sagat is close to that side of the family, but we can try!

We will ask Sagat what he may have heard. As Suk's grandson/grandnephew he may have stories in the family.

I'm definitely designing a shirt already, profits will go to the Kru Fund. You read my mind!

This is the guard referred to! https://youtu.be/EwdcTseZFl8

There is a really interesting specific history of this in the Spinning Elbow. I remember Arjan Surat teaching Sylvie several years ago and him laughing at the spinning elbow, "just for farang" he was laughing. Westerners love this move. What most don't realize is that this is a counter technique traditionally, used to catch an overly pursuing opponent. That's the usual use. Westerners use it completely "wrong". Now, here is where it gets interesting. Kronphet, who was once an Arjan Surat fighter, had fairly recently lost to the western fighter Gaston in a controversial decision [note: I'mgoing off my memory here and on mobile, I could be wrong]. We'll leave aside that Kronphet was already far removed from his prime, but Gaston is a fighter who completely uses the spinning elbow "wrong" (non traditionally) all fight long. He won that fight using it "wrong" (again, if I recall). Arjan Surat seemed to be laughing at the whole thing. I'm sure it looked ridiculous to him. But, it was somewhat effective against an aged, somewhat out of the circuit Thai. The big reason you can't use it like that is that you can be seriously countered vs elite competition, and in Thai style scoring you can't be off balance after scoring. Under western opponents, and now vs MMA opponents who just don't have the spatial awareness, the aggressive spinning elbow might very well work. Now, fast forward a few years. We filmed with Arjan Surat again and there he is teaching spinning shit to Sylvie. He teaches the spinning back fist that he says Wanchalerm (a fairly contemporary fighter) uses, and he teaches a whirling kick used by the old school legend Rotnarong (once Arjan's fighter) used. But, these are "moment" techniques, that fit within a context. They are used as counters or off of missed. I think that what happens is that they get taken out of their richer context, are used "wrong" against lesser opponent skill pools, or under different rule sets, and become popularized. And add Internet. It's cool in a way because it can create international enthusiasm for Thai techniques. And Thais themselves have moved away from many "fancy" techniques because of trying to be sure-footed with the gamblers, making stadium Muay Thai more and more vanilla. The misunderstanding and perhaps misuse of these techniques leads in a way toward their preservation, but we have to fight to retain some of the original fabric that created them, the deeper context of their success when used against elite competition.

You are completely right! His teaching style is almost entirely through sparring, and correction in sparring. He described to Sylvie how when he was in the gym as a fighter he would always be working on moves or deceptions that would catch his sparring partners off guard. He thought to himself that if he could fool someone who knew him well he could easily fool or mistime an opponent. It led to him developing one of the most unique fighting styles of the Golden Age. When he is teaching sylvie in all those sessions he is still doing this. We see him regularly invent throws, for instance, that we've never seen before, ever. And as he's showing the throw if you pay attention you'll see that he's working on it, inventing it right there before your eyes, just as he would do as a fighter. Now, this is the really interesting thing as to the topic. We have to admit that the entire ecosystem that produced these coaches, and all these fighters, it's gone, like the Amazon rain forest might one day be gone, but new ways of teaching and creating techniques are growing now. Fighters are communication their experiences. Rambaa just the other day was literally teaching Sylvie Karuhat's switching style, impersonating Karuhat, asking her if she knew who Karuhat was (???!), something he had stolen and made his own from videos. And...he's teaching this stuff to the Thai boys who are dreaming of becoming stadium fighters! So there is creativity!

This is a really interesting post. I will say that as an admin here the forum isn't the place for politically minded arguments (including politics in the Muay Thai world), we are trying to build a non-argumentative, informing space that celebrates Muay Thai, broadly. But your post does raise interesting larger questions, and the photographs are very cool. The most important and perhaps relevant question is What is Authentic Muay Thai? Yes, there were TKD roots to the introduction of Muay Thai into England, but this was literally multiple decades ago. TKD was an international sensation at the time, and many Thais were drawn to the art. But...there is no denying that both Master Woody and Master Toddy have dedicated their lives to Muay Thai, not only as businessmen, but as ambassadors, translators of the sport and art, and as teachers. Neither was a fighter as far as I know, but many, many worthy instructors and teachers were not fighters, or were only fighters of meager careers. Muay Thai, as it has washed over the shores of other countries relied on the promulgation of these kinds of men, capturing, celebrating, forwarding the art and sport, appealing to the trends in fighting sports as they were in the countries Muay Thai landed in. There was a time when I took umbrage at just who was calling themselves "Master", but I've come to realize that Master is a kind of term of Muay Thai business when Muay Thai entered in the west, encountering a context of Traditional Martial arts. I think there can be no doubt though that both of these men have been powerful forces in the internationalization of Muay Thai. And yes, this is Muay Thai. I know much less about Master Woody's career and business, but Master Toddy has been perhaps the most influential figure in the forwarding of female Muay Thai in the west (and concordantly, through influence, in Thailand as well). Just the sweep of each of their careers cement them as pillars in the modern Muay Thai story. Now, is their part "real" Muay Thai? I think it is wrong to suggest that because they had TKD in their background they do not, or have not represented and furthered Muay Thai. I can say, just in terms of legitimacy, when you enter a gym in Thailand, it's the quality of the pad holders that pretty much determines the substance of the Muay Thai that emerges from that gym, and both of these men (I presume, I've been in Master Toddy's gym multiple times) carry pad men who handle students more than capably. Real, fight-oriented Muay Thai. There are interesting issues of authenticity of taught style. Master Toddy, having literally decades of instructing westerners, has developed a philosophy on how westerners can beat Thai style fighting. He has developed teaching methods that are unique and principles that emphasize certain skills and traits. Everything that I've seen from him (a few visits) was not only very interesting, but it was well within the cannon of Muay Thai proper, as far as I could tell. I think people make the mistake of imagining that Muay Thai is a narrow fighting sport, when in fact it is filled with technique and teaching variety, and it has been absorbing influences from different martial arts since its modern inception when it was taught to cadets beside Judo at Suan Kulap College in the early 1900s. Since that time there is no "pure" Muay Thai, in fact it has long negotiated its nature under the early influence of Judo and then western boxing. Just the other day we were with Rambaa Somdet, and he was teaching Sylvie a Karate/TKD style side kick, and a Judo influenced throw. All that mattered was "this will work". The more we expose ourselves to the great teachers of Thailand the more we are struck by how much variety of technique and influence there is in the art. And I will definitely say that I'd love to film with Master Toddy to archive his influence, his philosophy, his teaching method. It has been born from decades of ushering westerners toward fighting in Thailand. How could this not be Muay Thai. You also make a very discuss-able point about the Muay Boran outfits that are popularized over the last few years. I think people have to come to realize that "Muay Boran" has been a construction ever since it's beginning. Here's a summation of the origin of the Boran styles: This act of ordination basically made up Muay Boran by classifying it. It was part of a larger political move that involved taking Muay Thai (Boran) out of the transmission hands of the diverse temples were it was taught, and formalizing it into centers of teaching. From its very beginning it was a constructed (made up, to some degree) thing. And from that time very, very little of what was known, taught and fought with (from those schools of lineage) survives at all. You may have Kru Lek who has been teaching Muay Chaiya in Bangkok, devoting his life to that style, or General Tunwakom, who has devoted himself to Muay Lertrit, but these are very thin connections to the actual knowledge and styles of those days. The entire memory of Muay Boran is fragmented. So, does this mean that it should just be forgotten? No. Instead it has in the recent years been formalized. There have been efforts to catelogue and archive what is still known. And it has been commercialized to some degree. The fabrication of the uniforms is based on traditional dress as far as I can tell, as it has survived in elements. This is a call back to a distant past. The combination of an evoked past and commerce is very Thai. You have a huge resergence of Ayutthya recollection (and dress wear) in Thailand now. In many respects the past is always ideologically (and commercially) reconstructed. This is no different. The interest from westerners in these vast invocations of Muay Thai history helps preserve that history, or that sense of respect that gives Muay Thai an individuality. Is it immune from criticism? But what is really going on here is a recollection and celebration that at least in some ways might help preserve the remaining fragments of a heritage that is otherwise threatened. The bottom line really is that there is no simple "center point" of authenticity from which to critique all other forms of Muay Thai. The entire thing is constructed and shot through with financial interests. It's wrong to remove Master Toddy and Master Woody from the Pantheon of major figures who have forwarded the art. In the end we are all carrying with us our little ember from the fire that only we can hold, helping it toward the future. Note: If this post is part of an organized, and persistent character attack on any of the men mentioned in the OP, and not the beginning of a discussion, the post will be deleted. I'm hoping that instead deeper ideas can be discussed. Note 2: The original post above has been significantly edited, as if in response to what I had written, to now include Master Sken, and other descriptions. It is now locked.

I just wanted to relate to everyone part of a conversation we were having with Sifu McInnes in Pattaya when filming with him for the Library. I think the conversation will make the session cut, but I'm not sure. We were talking about the loss of the Golden Age techniques, something Sylvie and I talk about frequently. The part that she and I emphasize is that the great fighters of the Golden Age are no longer in the fight game. They find themselves outside of gyms, many of them no longer involved in Muay Thai at all. Not only are the techniques being lost, but the men of that age, their personalities, their knowledge depth, also are being lost. Sifu though had a different point. He has the perspective of someone who was super active in Lumpinee fighting in the Golden Age. He was close to Arjan Yodthong of Sityodtong, in fact Sifu says that he built his house next to the gym at the time, so close was their working relationship. He said for a decade he traveled the road to Lumpinee with Arjan Yodthong, week after week. His point though was not that the great fighters are no longer in Muay Thai, but that its the great coaches who made those fighters are no longer in Muay Thai. Of course Arjan Yodthong who made an incredible number of champions sadly passed away, but Sifu said that many others have died as well. In fact he challenged us to name a single legendary Muay Thai teacher who is still strongly connected to producing stadium fighters. We thought for a minute and could only come up with Arjan Surat of Dejrat Gym. But Sifu objected. Arjan Surat was a young man then, when the Golden Age was happening. That is not the generation he was referring to. It's the generation that was before. That was the generation which actually produced the legends of the Golden Age. And, as we both agreed, it is irrevocably lost because the entire system that made those great instructors, the Yodthongs of Thailand, is gone, the entire feeding system to Bangkok is heavily altered, radically changed. The quality of instruction, even at top Thai gyms, is no longer what it was in those days, Sifu claimed. He said that he would sit in Lumpinee with legendary coaches and they would just make money hand over fist following their bets. They could see which fighter was going, and in what round. He said that kind of knowledge, all the infinite perceptions are gone. It's a great session, so much in it technically, but that conversation will stay with me. With the Library we are trying to save the techniques, the Muay, and something of the men who fought so brilliantly in those decades, but Sifu reminded me that the ecological loss is even more than that. It's of the generation before them, the men of Muay Thai who were shapers of that greatness we all look back on. Some stills from the session (you can follow my photography on Instagram)

That is very, very cool Pat. It must be amazing to connect with your heritage like that. And to do so much discovery and sleuthing. Do you know why he's depicted as Death, or a Ghost on horseback in that one cover? It's really stunning. Thanks for sharing the story here!

Silapathai was one of the great kicking fighters ever. You should watch his kick battle with Karuhat where he simply out kicks the wizard of style. We asked Karuhat "why did you just keep kicking with him?" and said "What else was I going to do?!" He teaches at the old Jockygym (now Skarbowsky Gym) in Bangkok, which brought up Saenchai, Lerdzila, etc. He's amazing. I maybe would only suggest the gym if you plan of taking several privates with him, just to get the focus right. Here is a segment of Sylvie's Patreon session with him: Kem's gym is more of an all-around technical gym. Not specializing in kicks, but certainly teaches beautiful styling, including kicking.

That is super cool. And pretty awesome that it flowed out of the shirts that Sylvie made of Karuhat. This is just the best stuff. Artistic creativity, respect paid, inspiration from others. Btw, it looks great.

As everyone returning to the forum will see we've done a complete redesign of the forum (as well as of 8limbs.us). 8limbs.us has become 8limbsus.com (which will give it more reach out there in the netherworld. And the changes made to the forum are of super-high quality. The forum is now equipped with the latest software, and is very supportive of conversation and community. That being said it's sure to have a few bugs as we go forward in the next month, so please do post any anomalies, confusions or deadends that you run into, just so we can make it better for others. I'll post a list of upgraded features, but one of the better ones is that if you go to your profile you can add your Facebook account which will allow Facebook Login, just signing in with click. That's pretty good, I'm already using it. I have to say that this complete level-up could only be accomplished through the support of our patrons. If you are not yet a patron and appreciate this space and community you can easily become one here: Patreon - Sylvie. Even a $1 a month helps with the new costs of the forum, and gives you access to some incredible exclusive content the likes of which you cannot find anywhere else!

A good thing to work on, stylistically, is that when punches start coming: throw a spear knee, or throw a mid-kick under them. Eventually building awareness of where the "open side" is (where the belly button is pointing toward. It's common to think about trying to counter and defend up top when attacked up top, but knees (or if you like longer distances, kicks) are very high scoring in Muay Thai, and are natural counters to punching combinations. Punches extend and open the body.

Hey Lucy, we've had lots of experiences in changing gyms, or training at multiple gyms. This is the golden rule that we follow. Just take some time and make an experiment. You don't have to make a final or big decision all at once. Maybe tell yourself that you are going to take a month and try the new gym, with the new habits process and just see how it feels. How things feel (including all the elements you are talking about, including the drive) is maybe the most important thing in training. After a month in the new settings you'd be a much better situation to access your needs. Maybe the new gym situation isn't as great as it seems? The glow might wear off after a couple of weeks. Or, maybe the old gym will be missed, but you won't know it until you make the change for a bit. After a month think about it. You'll also know better what you'd like to say to your old gym if decide to make the change permanent. Another option might be to blend gyms. Go to the close-by gym regularly, but take maybe 2 privates a month with your old kru. A private session might be worth the drive and money. It could be a way to maintain a good relationship.

Sasakul gym is really a boxing gym (with several world champions). But the private lessons with Chatchai will improve your balance for Muay Thai, 100%. If you are going to be in BKK in the next 3 weeks you might be able to get privates with Karuhat, but I'm not sure. Send Sylvie a message on her FB page and maybe she can help arrange https://www.facebook.com/sylviemuaythai/

The only real risk with training at a hard training gym like Kem's for a shorter period of time is that of acclimation. It might take you a few days to settle in physically. But Sylvie who is always in fight shape trained there for only a day, and loved it. I would just say that you should try to get your running up, and be ready to be tired.

Lommanee Sor.Tehiran(Thai) vs Fani Peloumpi (Greece) 2017

Adding these photos for Tyler: Map, looks like it's about 40 minutes from Rajadamnern Go to the Google Map link here.

I guess it is natural on the internet to extrapolate from very little information. I just try to restrain from making broad negative judgements from afar. Like in the above, the idea that they aren't taking care of their trainers is kind of absurd, and based on basically nothing. Kru Dam and Bernueng there have been with the gym for ages, and are insanely skilled. It could be that they are having problems with their trainers, but in a fighting gym itinerant trainers are also pretty common, there is always a halo of cycling trainers outside core trainers. It's hard to say which it is. As to the idea that gyms somehow snap into their best behavior when Sylvie shows up this really isn't how it is. Most gyms know very little about Sylvie or what she is, if at all. Her own gym, Petchrungruang where she has been for 4 years, hardly has a real clue about how well-known she is, or whatever her website is - if you can believe that - and don't really care about it. Any "fighting" gym really doesn't think that much about these things. What they do respond to is that she trains like hell, is really knowledgeable, is skilled and speaks Thai, they definitely changes the dynamic, but we also watch how others are treated and what the training is like. I'm not sure where you got the idea that this was some kind of big tourist gym. That's not the feeling I had at all. It's a fighters gym as far as I can tell. Kem is a huge gambler, and loves the game. I can also say that the way the gym treated us when we walked into a festival fight with no corner, and stumbled upon their mat, was nothing short of memorable. They took Sylvie right in and treated her like their fighter at a moment's notice (festival situations can be very political). It said a lot to us how they absorbed her right away into their family of fighters. I'll agree that it is probably a very steep learning curve for a first time in Thailand, but some people like that. Some people are adventurous. Price isn't everything. If you are on a shoestring budget this isn't the place for you. But this is a gorgeous gym in an incredible setting with a very tough training regime. You can't really compare this gym to a Chiang Mai or Hua Hin gym, which are actually tourist gyms, that is, the reason they exist is to serve tourists. This is a fighting gym, or at least it was when we were there. There are gyms that exist in order to serve tourists, and there are gyms that exist to develop Thais, and use tourist dollars to supplement their fighter development, that's the pleasure of the gym. The good ones, like this, then allow the tourists to integrate with the "real" gym. That's the feeling we had when we were there. It's not easy to integrate if you aren't the focus, and gyms go through bad periods, sometimes for a long time, but the chance to get to be close to the "real" business of Muay Thai is kind of irreplaceable. You aren't the boss because you are a customer. When you aren't the boss because you are a customer you can have a hard time finding your spot in the system. The only way in is through work and attitude. It can leave you with mixed feelings. You don't feel valued sometimes, or left out. As a sidenote, and really, this is going off our short visits to the gym, the clinch focus at this gym was some of the best we'd encountered in Thailand. This not a small thing. Nobody knows how to clinch in the west, more or less. When you come to Thailand you want to clinch. So few "tourist" gyms focus on clinch in the Thai way. You need to work against Thais, you need lots of hours in the ring. It's the only way to learn the balance. It's not really imitate-able. Again, the gym might have changed, but this was one of the few gyms we've encountered which was very clinch focused in the real kaimuay sense. Hey, it's up on a mountain. It's been running for a while. Things can get into a rut. I don't know. But I think it a big mistake to impune Kem with some pretty harsh assumptions, that he doesn't give a shit about westerners in his gym, or his trainers. Those are some kind of hardcore things to toss out there, even as "maybes" from very little information. I know you had a lot of time at Master Toddy's, at least from our experience there is no gym we've ever seen like Master Toddy's (though some of the dynamics we've seen). This isn't like Master Toddy's gym. I'm not going to say that this is an easy gym to go to, but it has some elements that are very hard to find in Thailand and that are worth experiencing. This is one of the most interesting questions about coming to Thailand to train. How much do you need to be the focus (in a customer experience way), and how much do you need to submit to a "real" kaimuay dynamic (which means you aren't the focus, and really, that you aren't very important)? There are gyms that take advantage of this differential and just offer shit training, but it doesn't really sound by his description that this is what was happening. Honestly, I thought this was a great review of a mixed experience. It didn't sound like he was miserable, but more like there were things that bothered him a little. Take this: -Repetitive Training: Although the training is hard, it is a little repetitive at times if you ask me. We did the same exercises day-in and day-out with the only difference being the number of rounds for each one. The training is pretty much oriented on the basics and fundamentals as well. They will make sure you can do a proper jab, a proper kick, and so on.. One thing I didn't like too much as well was the fact for the clinching sessions they were just making you clinch and throwing you on the ground, they weren't really breaking down techniques much. Although this approach has its benefits, I believe taking like 5-10 minutes to properly show a technique would have been a good addition as well. This is actually REAL Thai training. You are experiencing exactly how Thais learn. Lots, and lots and lots of repetition with lots and lots of focus on the basics. You do innumerable rounds on the bag or pads. To be honest about it, this is not that far from some "wax on, wax off" Kung Fu shit. Something deeper is being instructed than you realize. And yes, exactly that, in clinch you get dumped on the ground endlessly. This is how Thais build fighters. It takes a really long time, but this is it. Learning clinch for instance, and looking for technique breakdowns (I understand how someone would want this, but it isn't how it is done) would be like trying to learn "surfing breakdowns" and not wanting to fall off the board. For Thais you just get on the board and try to keep on it, again and again. It can be very frustrating, and feel like you are being abused, but once you give into it (stop being the customer) and start relying on yourself to solve the problem, you start to grow in a deep way. You haven't "learned" a trick, externally, you develop it. You watch others, you experiment. You solve. This is how it is done. For a long time Sylvie was clinching with Bank, her own gym's owner's son, who had an incredible lock. He would just very painfully lock her. He wouldn't even knee really. He would just crush her. It didn't feel nice at all. Eventually she just had to solve it. She learned that she couldn't really get out of the lock so she had to learn how to defeat the move before it locked in. It took a long time, maybe months, but she learned. It would have been a very different experience if she was just shown the "counter" and drilled it over and over in a class like situation against a westerner. It's a very different kind of knowledge that she has now. This is how technique is taught in kaimuay situations. High repetition, lots of problem solving. The point is that something that disappointed the reviewer (and I get it, you want to be shown) is actually coming in contact with "real" Muay Thai. And, there is something very valuable in that. The problem is, this kind of process takes a long time. And, it feels a little uncaring. It's a form of immersion. It would be like learning a language by just having people talk at you. You learn nothing at all for a while, but then as you get your feet, you learn much more deeply. By letting westerners into this training approach the gym is actually generous. It's not distorting it's culture of what Muay Thai is to accommodate you. You are able to get in touch with real Muay Thai. Now, whether this is of value to you in a 1 month or 3 month trip is a different story. Sure, you can pop on down to Hua Hin, hang on the beach a little, learn 3 counter moves and 2 trips, practice them all the time, and come home to your home gym and kick people's ass who don't know those moves. Totally. But that isn't really Muay Thai, in the Thai process. People come to Thailand hoping to get the "hack", the short cut to real techniques. It's the home of techniques, but the nature of how Muay Thai is traditionally taught is the opposite. It's slow. That's why you kind of have to decide in a real sense how much you need to be the focus, and how much you want to feel real Muay Thai processes, and find a gym that is on the spectrum in the right place for you. This is one of the most important questions to answer when coming to train in the country.