Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu

Anyone in the Islands is pretty much off our radar right now. But it's great to know that there is someone who we can reach out to down the line if needed.

This is a very good point. Sports is definitely fighting for eyeball and joystick space. That's why I think comparison with similarly placed sports is important to do. The best comparison is probably with BJJ, because Muay Thai and BJJ were probably bouyed by the same UFC/MMA wave. In charts above I show that BJJ is trending up, and has passed Muay Thai, which instead is trending down. There are other interesting comparisons, for instance with TKD and Kickboxing. Here is a 2 year trend line for all 4 sports: BJJ, on the rise. You can see how far TKD has fallen in this 15 year timeline of the same, catapulted to very high numbers I believe through Olympic inclusion: Of course if you put Muay Thai on the trend line with Football (soccer) you wouldn't even be able to see it. The important thing for those looking to grow the sport and art of Muay Thai is that if Muay Thai finds itself in a relatively small niche of diminishing attention spans, a stressed environment, that fact that it has been trending downward in that environment for many, many years, and is being surpassed by BJJ which is rising, makes its future questionable.

More YouTube data, the last 5 years Looks like worldwide Muay Thai is holding it's own against BJJ as a search subject on YouTube, in all the charts I've run over the last 4 years this is literally the only positive chart I've seen for Muay Thai (if I can remember them all). But still, Muay Thai is downward trending, the same trend I'm seeing everywhere. Muay Thai vs BJJ Worldwide 5 years (below) On the other hand, in a place like the United States it's completely reversed. BJJ crushes Muay Thai as a YouTube search subject: Muay Thai (blue) vs BJJ (red) USA 5 years (above) There is probably a caveat here, in that people on YouTube likely search for Muay Thai fights, and they very likely don't search for BJJ matches much. So a worldwide edge in search subject worldwide is probably already pretty skewed (making the reverse in the USA even more dramatic) just by subject matter. Google web searches include so many other interest factors such as looking up champions, looking for a local gym, etc. Also note as mentioned, the USA Muay Thai trend is the same trend seen elsewhere, downward sloped. This downward slope is important because we see it everywhere.

Wow, so I just gave it go and did a little query; I was very (!) surprised that it looks like Google updated their trends function, and they DO show YouTube search data (Google owns YouTube). The results, not good, at least in the Worldwide scope. Here is 5 years of YouTube search data for the term "Muay Thai"

There is no way to see YouTube trends, that I know of, but YouTube is the 2nd largest Search Engine in the World. What the Olympics will do is that it will fill classes with youth, around the world. And youth entry is a huge factor in the health and popularity of a sport. Whether this would translate into long term health is another question. Olympic entry was a huge stimulus to TKD for instance, but that growth also had some notorious deleterious effects as well. I believe there are regular Lumpinee fights coming to UFC Fight Pass. Jason Strout (of NYC) I heard is moving to Bangkok to do the commentary. That is pretty cool. It would be nice to have just regular ol' nothing special stadium fighting moving through the media pipeline.

It's beautiful to see the legends of Muay Thai pass through the filter of female western fighters, embraced by that passion. If always felt like female Muay Thai is possibly the thing that might save Muay Thai as we hope it will be saved.

Four years go I started tracking this data which suggests that the popularity of Muay Thai is actually in decline, at least in the share it has in searches conducted on Google. If you browse through the thread above you'll see that the suggestive, but still inconclusive trend is pretty strong in almost all dimensions of search of the subject and its terms. Here's an update on the data now in 2019. Things still looking bleak. As I've argued, we on the Internet with huge passion for the sport don't feel this decline because we are surrounded by like-minded people, thanks to personal choice and algorithms that show us what we like. But, if we really care about the sport and the art, we need to soberly embrace these trends so that we can work realistically to change them. Above, as you can see the subject "Muay Thai" worldwide has declined, and has also declined in relation to BJJ. One could argue that the popularity of both sports has been parasitic to MMA and the UFC. Now BJJ has - at least along this vector - clearly passed Muay Thai as a parasitically boosted sport. Both are highly specialized. Both require an educated audience. Both have "home country" elite performer cultural roots. Below, you can see that Muay Thai as a search term, in Thailand, in Thai language, has continued to decline. This means that worldwide trend issues of popularity cannot be counter-weighted by the health of the sport in the home country. Rather, its relative popularity is in decline both abroad and at home. Long term there are significant issues.

That's a really good question! Most of the photos I see lately are of the statue made in his honor, but yes, totally there is a photo that has been associated with him as well. Doing a quick reverse image search seems to suggest that the association established on old Muay Thai Institute website postings. Here is an example https://www.muaythai-institute.com/history - as you can see, there are lots of old photos placed in proximity to historic descriptions. I doubt anyone knows who the photo is of. An interesting side note about Nai Khanom Tom is that his entire story is based on only 7 lines of verse in an epic poem, embellished as the years have gone on.

Here is a discussion zone for the Rambaa Somdet M16 Muay Thai Library session (published 5/17/2019), which is pretty chalk full of technique. There is so much in it is difficult to total. One of the coolest things in it is the Pistol-Whip Elbow that he teaches within the clinch. A GIF from when he first taught it to Sylvie a few years ago: In any case, this is a space where patrons (and others) can seek clarity or have back and forth on some of the details in Rambaa's fighting approach.

I think early in the fight, yes, the target for a KO is pretty small, but if you keep hitting that area the sensitive "shock" area actually grows over time. A forth round near miss will put someone out if that rib area has been peppered several times, whereas the same shot might have done nothing much (visible) in the first. Much as the leg starts to swell and be more ready to go, I think the body protecting the liver also grows more ready to shock. (As I've written elsewhere, I also think this expanding zone of sensitivity is even more dramatic if there have been re-hydration problems from weight cut, etc.) Edit: In the larger sense, what interests me is how these kinds of attacks require additional investment. You have to insist on them. In some ways all strikes require investment. You don't throw 3 jabs all fight and really have "a jab". You need to jab regularly and repeatedly. But, there are some kinds of attacks that have huge pay offs (fight enders), but usually after a series of only so-so effects. Just to snag a recent ringside example I had from a month or so ago in a local stadium, I was watching a farang fighter face a Thai who was much better than him in the overall sense (but had not fought in 3 years, called "off the couch" so to speak). The farang wasn't bad, he was in better shape though. After several close calls in the first, in the second the westerner went to a very insistent elbow. Over and over and over. 95% were not landing at all. But it just started stressing the Thai, and stress became distress. It was incredible to just see the Thai melt (he's a friend of ours). The insistence made it happen. Throw only 3 of those, the whole fight goes another way. Throw 20, he just overwhelmed the Thai. It feels like this is a kind of secret automatic win strategy that few go for. It amazes me that these big payday attacks are just relatively under-used. And I wonder why? It is fighter psychology? Lack of knowledge or awareness? The only fight ender everyone knows and loves is the head KO.

This round is a good example of pressure elbow fighting from Yodkhunpon, how the misses are all incorporated into a generalized pressure:

There are probably some caveats to this, but I'm really interested in a family of techniques that tend to be neglected because if you throw them in isolation they really don't seem to be all that effective, but if you really throw them repeated, with volume, they are not only effective, against some classes of opponents he can be unstoppable. Low kicks are maybe the most obvious of these. You don't see a lot of low kick fighters in Muay Thai's Thailand mostly because they don't score very highly, and maybe because they feel like a kind of "low hanging fruit" blow? But this is exactly the kind of technique I'm talking about. You don't throw 1 or 2 low kicks. You throw 15. And you'll see that they'll have no effect, no effect, no effect. And then bam, the fight is over. There are lots of examples of this in Muay Thai (despite the technique being relatively shunned), a favorite is our friend JR's fight up in Chiangmai: It's really to say - and I guess this is the meaning behind this post - the results are just so damn harsh, the risk so relatively low, the only reason why I can imagine that low kicks are not a widely used attack is simply that illusion that they aren't effective just when trying them out one at a time. Many fighters test them, play with them and move on, and never take them heavily into their arsenal. As with all these techniques I'm talking about, these are volume commitments. You need to feast heavy on them because their efficacy comes in loads of use. They'll just look like they are doing nothing. And then they bust through. Another one that comes to mind is liver hunting shots. Another fight-ender that will look like it's doing nothing at all, until it suddenly does. In fact the decay time for liver shots and leg kicks feels the same. Nothing, nothing, nothing. Now fight over. When the sweet spot happens, finished. And like leg kicks, there is a cumulative effect. The body starts to swell, sensitivity grows, and the target you have to hit to end it all increases. The number of fighters who liver hunt is pretty damn small in Muay Thai, given that this is a knockout blow (incidentally, I strike I suspect is much more effective against big weight cut opponents). In the end though, it feels like this strike fails in popularity for the same reasons. It just doesn't seem like it is doing something, until it does. A third high-repetition technique that lacks some in popularity are elbows. It's fair to say that elbows are popular in the mind's-eye. They are a flashy, attractive part of Muay Thai, but they have a repetition dimension that is pretty rarely explored. One elbow, two. They either land or they don't. 5 elbows, 10 elbows in a span just break down the guard and eventually get through. They are blocked, blocked, blocked, and then not. There is a feeling of being exposed when you throw elbows, so I can see why they are not often thrown in bunches, but I suspect it is more than that. It's the same sense that they might not be effective, or maybe a lack of trust that after one is blocked, the 3rd or the 5th in high volume won't get through. It will. The fighter who really revolutionized this kind of attack was Yodkhunpon The Elbow Hunter of 100 Stitches. He was the first high profile Thai fighter willing to throw elbow on top of elbow (which stylistically was seen as brutish, femeu fighters preferring the well-timed, painterly elbow). He was willing to throw 20 in a round, knowing that they would eventually get through, or at least seriously distort the opponent and open them up to knees. Yodkhunpon teaching some of his high-repetition philosophy: In the above he links them to knees and other strikes, but really what he wants is a high-metronome elbow attack. One that expects to hit guard, break guard, turtle the opponent. What I find interesting is that each of these strikes are more or less unstoppable when heavily used in high volume, at least against the kinds of opponents 99.999% of anyone reading this would ever face. These are really devastating attacks. There are definite psychological hurdles in becoming a leg, liver or elbow hunter, but he biggest one seems to be belief. Belief that the 5th one, the 20th one, the 40th one will get through (or, the knowledge that all that banked action has distorted your opponent so severely there are many ways to take advantage of it). I'm tempted to add, at least for Muay Thai, uppercuts, to the list. It's not quite the same as the 3 above, but it took is a somewhat effective strike that in high-volume has a "break through" quality. Fighters that commit to uppercuts, especially in Muay Thai where defense against them is less trained, can be very, very potent. I'd love to hear your thoughts on these Unstoppable Strikes, and hear if you have others in mind that have the same kind of "break through" quality, and probably should be much more popular if people simply believed in them more.

We're pretty far removed from gyms in America, but Michael Corley, who is the head of the USMF, not too long ago newly opened Heritage Muay Thai in Houston: https://goo.gl/maps/LU5HHcjBgWeiuezm6 Given that there is a lot of emphasis on youth and growing students in the USMF I would imagine that they'd be great with new students. Maybe something to check out?

This is the hidden future of female Muay Thai. This ethic, this world bond and bubbling up of shared failure, shared technique, shared culture, in the hands of 12-15 year olds. This exists in parkour because all of this was put online, cross-connecting, building a lifestyle. It was made possible because it grew out of male-dominated skate culture, x-culture, and then parkour and now Gtramp culture, but using social media networks a genuine life force is created. Female Muay Thai has much to learn from this.

The new software updates to the forum have a very handy, fast way to get updated on all the activity that has happened on the forum since you were last here. Especially on mobile. You'll see the little newspaper icon at the top (circled red in the screen shot). It will give you a super browse-able list of new comments and posts. As you can see by the green circled item you can filter everything down too. Additionally, in your profile settings you can choose how you want your notifications will occur, and you can set up following particular forum members and other cool stuff. There is also a very robust private messaging system in the forum you can use to cross-communicate. There are so many Easter Eggs in this software I'm provably just scratching the surface. If you run into something cool share it with everyone, if you would.

Very good catch! He, amazingly, also was Pi Nu's trainer (Sylvie's Kru in Pattaya). He used to travel in a circuit back in the day and would come and train the Petchrungruang boys regularly when he would be in Pattaya. Sounds as if he was a kind of traveling Arjan. He was training one of the greatest fighters of the generation (Kaensak in Bangkok), and also some boys in a small, family gym in Pattya? And how many others? As a side note, so out of sheer coincidence Sylvie's ended up training under two of his students, both Kaesak who was her trainer in NJ before she moved to Thailand, and Kru Nu now, which is such an unexpected, accidental lineage. What is interesting, if I have the story right, when Kru Nu's son Bank was starting to make waves last year at Lumpinee Kru Kimyu offered to come and help train him for an upcoming fight, if he could make it, but it never came to fruition because of his health/age. So we are really on the cusp of Kru Kimyu ending his influence on fighters. Sylvie says though that he's come over to Bank's corner in two recent important Lumpinee fights, so he's hanging out at Lumpinee. (Edit to add: It's also kind of beautiful and amazing to see this subterrainian connection between two gyms, Dejrat Gym and Petchrungruang Gym, two gyms you would never from the outside connect. There is a thin teaching line in Kru Kimyu, and also now in Sylvie there is a student line as well, as Arjan Surat has been a heavy influence on her. It's in the fabric of relationships.)

If true that would really be something. We had heard that Suk had fought into his 50s. It's hard to guess what stories might have passed down, or even if Sagat is close to that side of the family, but we can try!

We will ask Sagat what he may have heard. As Suk's grandson/grandnephew he may have stories in the family.

I'm definitely designing a shirt already, profits will go to the Kru Fund. You read my mind!

This is the guard referred to! https://youtu.be/EwdcTseZFl8

There is a really interesting specific history of this in the Spinning Elbow. I remember Arjan Surat teaching Sylvie several years ago and him laughing at the spinning elbow, "just for farang" he was laughing. Westerners love this move. What most don't realize is that this is a counter technique traditionally, used to catch an overly pursuing opponent. That's the usual use. Westerners use it completely "wrong". Now, here is where it gets interesting. Kronphet, who was once an Arjan Surat fighter, had fairly recently lost to the western fighter Gaston in a controversial decision [note: I'mgoing off my memory here and on mobile, I could be wrong]. We'll leave aside that Kronphet was already far removed from his prime, but Gaston is a fighter who completely uses the spinning elbow "wrong" (non traditionally) all fight long. He won that fight using it "wrong" (again, if I recall). Arjan Surat seemed to be laughing at the whole thing. I'm sure it looked ridiculous to him. But, it was somewhat effective against an aged, somewhat out of the circuit Thai. The big reason you can't use it like that is that you can be seriously countered vs elite competition, and in Thai style scoring you can't be off balance after scoring. Under western opponents, and now vs MMA opponents who just don't have the spatial awareness, the aggressive spinning elbow might very well work. Now, fast forward a few years. We filmed with Arjan Surat again and there he is teaching spinning shit to Sylvie. He teaches the spinning back fist that he says Wanchalerm (a fairly contemporary fighter) uses, and he teaches a whirling kick used by the old school legend Rotnarong (once Arjan's fighter) used. But, these are "moment" techniques, that fit within a context. They are used as counters or off of missed. I think that what happens is that they get taken out of their richer context, are used "wrong" against lesser opponent skill pools, or under different rule sets, and become popularized. And add Internet. It's cool in a way because it can create international enthusiasm for Thai techniques. And Thais themselves have moved away from many "fancy" techniques because of trying to be sure-footed with the gamblers, making stadium Muay Thai more and more vanilla. The misunderstanding and perhaps misuse of these techniques leads in a way toward their preservation, but we have to fight to retain some of the original fabric that created them, the deeper context of their success when used against elite competition.

You are completely right! His teaching style is almost entirely through sparring, and correction in sparring. He described to Sylvie how when he was in the gym as a fighter he would always be working on moves or deceptions that would catch his sparring partners off guard. He thought to himself that if he could fool someone who knew him well he could easily fool or mistime an opponent. It led to him developing one of the most unique fighting styles of the Golden Age. When he is teaching sylvie in all those sessions he is still doing this. We see him regularly invent throws, for instance, that we've never seen before, ever. And as he's showing the throw if you pay attention you'll see that he's working on it, inventing it right there before your eyes, just as he would do as a fighter. Now, this is the really interesting thing as to the topic. We have to admit that the entire ecosystem that produced these coaches, and all these fighters, it's gone, like the Amazon rain forest might one day be gone, but new ways of teaching and creating techniques are growing now. Fighters are communication their experiences. Rambaa just the other day was literally teaching Sylvie Karuhat's switching style, impersonating Karuhat, asking her if she knew who Karuhat was (???!), something he had stolen and made his own from videos. And...he's teaching this stuff to the Thai boys who are dreaming of becoming stadium fighters! So there is creativity!

This is a really interesting post. I will say that as an admin here the forum isn't the place for politically minded arguments (including politics in the Muay Thai world), we are trying to build a non-argumentative, informing space that celebrates Muay Thai, broadly. But your post does raise interesting larger questions, and the photographs are very cool. The most important and perhaps relevant question is What is Authentic Muay Thai? Yes, there were TKD roots to the introduction of Muay Thai into England, but this was literally multiple decades ago. TKD was an international sensation at the time, and many Thais were drawn to the art. But...there is no denying that both Master Woody and Master Toddy have dedicated their lives to Muay Thai, not only as businessmen, but as ambassadors, translators of the sport and art, and as teachers. Neither was a fighter as far as I know, but many, many worthy instructors and teachers were not fighters, or were only fighters of meager careers. Muay Thai, as it has washed over the shores of other countries relied on the promulgation of these kinds of men, capturing, celebrating, forwarding the art and sport, appealing to the trends in fighting sports as they were in the countries Muay Thai landed in. There was a time when I took umbrage at just who was calling themselves "Master", but I've come to realize that Master is a kind of term of Muay Thai business when Muay Thai entered in the west, encountering a context of Traditional Martial arts. I think there can be no doubt though that both of these men have been powerful forces in the internationalization of Muay Thai. And yes, this is Muay Thai. I know much less about Master Woody's career and business, but Master Toddy has been perhaps the most influential figure in the forwarding of female Muay Thai in the west (and concordantly, through influence, in Thailand as well). Just the sweep of each of their careers cement them as pillars in the modern Muay Thai story. Now, is their part "real" Muay Thai? I think it is wrong to suggest that because they had TKD in their background they do not, or have not represented and furthered Muay Thai. I can say, just in terms of legitimacy, when you enter a gym in Thailand, it's the quality of the pad holders that pretty much determines the substance of the Muay Thai that emerges from that gym, and both of these men (I presume, I've been in Master Toddy's gym multiple times) carry pad men who handle students more than capably. Real, fight-oriented Muay Thai. There are interesting issues of authenticity of taught style. Master Toddy, having literally decades of instructing westerners, has developed a philosophy on how westerners can beat Thai style fighting. He has developed teaching methods that are unique and principles that emphasize certain skills and traits. Everything that I've seen from him (a few visits) was not only very interesting, but it was well within the cannon of Muay Thai proper, as far as I could tell. I think people make the mistake of imagining that Muay Thai is a narrow fighting sport, when in fact it is filled with technique and teaching variety, and it has been absorbing influences from different martial arts since its modern inception when it was taught to cadets beside Judo at Suan Kulap College in the early 1900s. Since that time there is no "pure" Muay Thai, in fact it has long negotiated its nature under the early influence of Judo and then western boxing. Just the other day we were with Rambaa Somdet, and he was teaching Sylvie a Karate/TKD style side kick, and a Judo influenced throw. All that mattered was "this will work". The more we expose ourselves to the great teachers of Thailand the more we are struck by how much variety of technique and influence there is in the art. And I will definitely say that I'd love to film with Master Toddy to archive his influence, his philosophy, his teaching method. It has been born from decades of ushering westerners toward fighting in Thailand. How could this not be Muay Thai. You also make a very discuss-able point about the Muay Boran outfits that are popularized over the last few years. I think people have to come to realize that "Muay Boran" has been a construction ever since it's beginning. Here's a summation of the origin of the Boran styles: This act of ordination basically made up Muay Boran by classifying it. It was part of a larger political move that involved taking Muay Thai (Boran) out of the transmission hands of the diverse temples were it was taught, and formalizing it into centers of teaching. From its very beginning it was a constructed (made up, to some degree) thing. And from that time very, very little of what was known, taught and fought with (from those schools of lineage) survives at all. You may have Kru Lek who has been teaching Muay Chaiya in Bangkok, devoting his life to that style, or General Tunwakom, who has devoted himself to Muay Lertrit, but these are very thin connections to the actual knowledge and styles of those days. The entire memory of Muay Boran is fragmented. So, does this mean that it should just be forgotten? No. Instead it has in the recent years been formalized. There have been efforts to catelogue and archive what is still known. And it has been commercialized to some degree. The fabrication of the uniforms is based on traditional dress as far as I can tell, as it has survived in elements. This is a call back to a distant past. The combination of an evoked past and commerce is very Thai. You have a huge resergence of Ayutthya recollection (and dress wear) in Thailand now. In many respects the past is always ideologically (and commercially) reconstructed. This is no different. The interest from westerners in these vast invocations of Muay Thai history helps preserve that history, or that sense of respect that gives Muay Thai an individuality. Is it immune from criticism? But what is really going on here is a recollection and celebration that at least in some ways might help preserve the remaining fragments of a heritage that is otherwise threatened. The bottom line really is that there is no simple "center point" of authenticity from which to critique all other forms of Muay Thai. The entire thing is constructed and shot through with financial interests. It's wrong to remove Master Toddy and Master Woody from the Pantheon of major figures who have forwarded the art. In the end we are all carrying with us our little ember from the fire that only we can hold, helping it toward the future. Note: If this post is part of an organized, and persistent character attack on any of the men mentioned in the OP, and not the beginning of a discussion, the post will be deleted. I'm hoping that instead deeper ideas can be discussed. Note 2: The original post above has been significantly edited, as if in response to what I had written, to now include Master Sken, and other descriptions. It is now locked.

I just wanted to relate to everyone part of a conversation we were having with Sifu McInnes in Pattaya when filming with him for the Library. I think the conversation will make the session cut, but I'm not sure. We were talking about the loss of the Golden Age techniques, something Sylvie and I talk about frequently. The part that she and I emphasize is that the great fighters of the Golden Age are no longer in the fight game. They find themselves outside of gyms, many of them no longer involved in Muay Thai at all. Not only are the techniques being lost, but the men of that age, their personalities, their knowledge depth, also are being lost. Sifu though had a different point. He has the perspective of someone who was super active in Lumpinee fighting in the Golden Age. He was close to Arjan Yodthong of Sityodtong, in fact Sifu says that he built his house next to the gym at the time, so close was their working relationship. He said for a decade he traveled the road to Lumpinee with Arjan Yodthong, week after week. His point though was not that the great fighters are no longer in Muay Thai, but that its the great coaches who made those fighters are no longer in Muay Thai. Of course Arjan Yodthong who made an incredible number of champions sadly passed away, but Sifu said that many others have died as well. In fact he challenged us to name a single legendary Muay Thai teacher who is still strongly connected to producing stadium fighters. We thought for a minute and could only come up with Arjan Surat of Dejrat Gym. But Sifu objected. Arjan Surat was a young man then, when the Golden Age was happening. That is not the generation he was referring to. It's the generation that was before. That was the generation which actually produced the legends of the Golden Age. And, as we both agreed, it is irrevocably lost because the entire system that made those great instructors, the Yodthongs of Thailand, is gone, the entire feeding system to Bangkok is heavily altered, radically changed. The quality of instruction, even at top Thai gyms, is no longer what it was in those days, Sifu claimed. He said that he would sit in Lumpinee with legendary coaches and they would just make money hand over fist following their bets. They could see which fighter was going, and in what round. He said that kind of knowledge, all the infinite perceptions are gone. It's a great session, so much in it technically, but that conversation will stay with me. With the Library we are trying to save the techniques, the Muay, and something of the men who fought so brilliantly in those decades, but Sifu reminded me that the ecological loss is even more than that. It's of the generation before them, the men of Muay Thai who were shapers of that greatness we all look back on. Some stills from the session (you can follow my photography on Instagram)

That is very, very cool Pat. It must be amazing to connect with your heritage like that. And to do so much discovery and sleuthing. Do you know why he's depicted as Death, or a Ghost on horseback in that one cover? It's really stunning. Thanks for sharing the story here!