Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu

Well, here is a theory I entertained a while ago. The squat toilet since childhood, and squatting in general as many Thais do/did to just relax and wait around, produces a lot of flexibility, and possibly a lot of technique that grew out of it. I wonder, as the western toilet spreads throughout Thailand if hip flexibility will just generally be reduced, and Thai technique may be changed. This has less to do with hips in, but your mention of the hips made me recall this chain of thought.

That pretty much puts it in a nutshell.

This is an interesting point, and one I have to say that I haven't given enough weight. And from your description it sounds really accurate. The big bombs come more from above. But I remain convinced that there are real, substantive differences in how each culture views the body. Rabbit punches may win in the west, because anything to the head feels or looks damaging, in how the body is mapped. In Thailand it's the opposite. Sylvie has lost several fights to rapid rabbit knees, really quickly thrown knees in a row that might not even touch the body. They are almost symbolic strikes to the gut. Yes, they require some additional balance, and that is on display, but it's more than that. You'll see slow motion replays, for instance in a Channel 7 fight, of knees landing to the ribs. Not really something the west would select out from a round. I think the west sees the head as the center of the Self. It is not only its expressive self (the face), it holds the brain (what science tells us is our core self). Strikes are directed to the head, because the head is essentially us. In Thai body mapping - and this is my little theory - the essential Self is divided up. Yes, the symbolic self (face) is above, but the life force of the self is conceived to be more in the gut. Blows to the gut, or ribs, feel more directed to the opponent's life force. We still have this in our language, things like "gut check", or "gutting it out", or "that takes guts", but these are largely leftovers from a differing world view of the body and the Self. Ancient western cultures considered the spleen or liver as core centers of the life force of a person. I suspect that the big divide on how scoring is done, especially in how body kicks or knees are scored, has to do with this different sense of Self. Now, if we say this is correct, then it makes sense that the Thais would also become more proficient at designing techniques to attack (and protect) that core Self, and a martial art meant to do so. The west is filled with head-hunting because the head is seen as the essential life force of a person culturally. ...I do find your notes really interesting though. How though would you explain the difficulty westerners have in putting their hips in during clinch? Sylvie's been doing this full time for a long time now, and even though she's gotten to a place of very balanced hips in clinch, driving the hips in is still very difficult for her to do, even though she knows that is an essential "safe" place in clinching. There has to be something going on there. Of course it's not just Sylvie, we've seen it over and over again, with trained and untrained westerners alike.

Ass-back is a huge western vs Thai difference that I think goes beyond any particular technique. The west has at least a few fighting styles that favor ass-back (or head forward) positions. The wrestler's hunch, and some styles of western boxing. This is a big difference, and it really plays out heavily in clinch where head-forward results in very easy throws or knees. I also feel like there are extra-circular reasons behind this. Culturally it is somewhat in the body image to pull the groin away in times of attack (for what seem like obvious reasons), but also that there is an element of modesty when in proximity. But hips-forward is a really important part or position in Muay Thai stances and Thai clinch, and there seems like there is a kind of "shyness" involved with the western body image/behavior that makes this much harder to access for western fighters.

And how experienced are you? Asking just so I could look around and see how realistic fights might be for you.

What is your walk around weight, if you don't mind me asking?

Royal Thai Residence is I think 800 a night, and has a nice pool. They are a sponsor of the Thai boys at our gym Petchrungruang, so there is that connection (there is a Muay Thai discount). But we've known several people who have stayed there happily. Our apartment building rents out daily rooms at 600 a night, I think. Sorry this isn't super complete, just what I know. At least a place to start.

More on the "inherently deceptive" Thais: Sumaree Sriuam, 29, who sells chicken noodles, was riding her motorbike near Bali Hai Pier, when she found a wallet on the ground. The wallet contained three THB400,000 checks, THB29,822 cash, and credit cards belonging to a man named Wutthikorn Hanwutthisut. Sumaree decided to bring the lost property to Muang Pattaya Police to help look for the owner. “I just feel sorry for the owner,” Sumaree told Siamchon News. “I don’t want other people’s property, and I know they’d want it back.” source

Not to go too far into this, but there is another layer from my own experience and perceptions, if the thoughts are worthy to put out there. It seems that many of the western men who come to Thailand long term come because they already feel like outcasts, or unacknowledged to the degree that they hoped to be, in their OWN cultures. There is a wide spectrum on this, all kinds of reasons they did not sit well where they were in their own culture, but when they come to Thailand the seduction is the incredible sense of freedom they can feel here, at least in the beginning. They can more or less reinvent themselves (nobody knows them), their $$ go further, they are much richer than they were, and they can at times more easily access women of a beauty standard that they may not have at home (this can also apply to western women who can have their own syndrome of this, but that's another story), and the seeming non-judgmental nature of Thais (Thais do form very strong judgements but they just won't let you know about it) all speaks to a kind of wonderland of self-esteem and self-creating. This applies to older sex-pats, but also to fighters who find themselves doing hyper masculine things, like beating people up for a living...or being beat up. The thing of it is, if you come from your own culture where you already feel you aren't respected like you should be, and then find yourself in a kind of playland, it can be pretty jarring when you run up against the "you are farang" wall, and realize that you aren't embraced the way you thought or hoped. A lot of these more vocal older ex-pats already feel embittered along the line of acceptance. They can often come here to feel special in some way and resent it when it doesn't work out that way. For us we never imagine that we could or would be taken as a "Thai". Why would we? We aren't Thai. Thais, to be very broad about it, seem to be very clannish (family-like extended groups) and sensitive to shifting alliances, and there are so many difficulties to be found within Thai social hierarchies, and within clans and friendships, things we don't see. This isn't "deceptive" in the sinful western sense, but it is...maybe cloistered is the best word. There are circles of trust, within circles of trust, to use a line from Meet the Parents. But a lot of the "Thais are so blah, blah, blah..." talk really seems to come from a combination of putting yourself in poor situations, and unrealistic ideas about how you should be appreciated or embraced.

Maybe someone who has trained at Santai can hop on. My personal sense from afar is that the gym is VERY well liked by loyal, return fighters, but that it is something of a farang camp. And it has a reputation of teaching only a single style of Muay Thai (which some might prefer), changing people's kicks and techniques to suit that style. That isn't something I'd recommend given the richness and variety of technique available in Thailand. This would be perhaps in contrast with what we experienced at Hongthong when Sylvie did a private with Joe. Joe thought hard about how Sylvie fights (in advance, he had seen her fight) and how he could show her things that could really compliment and expand her already existing style. The private was more or less amazing (you can see the full hour of it on Patreon). But that degree of freedom or looseness of approach might not be for everyone. Also, if you are going to divide time between Kem (which is isolated), Hongthong makes more sense because Santai is pretty isolated too, there's a bit of a trek if you want reach Chiang Mai. This being said Hongthong is reportedly ready to move to a brand new location (they are keeping this under wraps) which sounds like it's going to be an enormous upgrade in terms of facilities. I'm not quite sure where that location will be (in/around Chiang Mai). They will probably have moved by the time you arrive, so maybe watch their Facebook page?

Personally, the Kem/Hongthong split strikes me as the perfect contrast. Kem's gym is just spectacularly beautiful. There's a gorgeous valley vista right outside the practice ring, it's like an oasis up on a mountain, and the technique/training seems both rigorous and precise. But it is up in the middle of nowhere. Having been in both gyms they seem somehow complimentary. They do maybe frame a "best of both worlds" kind thing. The good thing about taking this kind of approach is that you get a real perspective for comparison, and maybe learn to appreciate each for what the other doesn't have. And, you may just decide after one cycle that you really like one more than the other. They are so much different worlds there won't be any political issues of changing or moving gyms, I would think, at least the first few times through. Sangtiennoi's gym is different than Kem's. Kem's is really new, and built on beautiful grounds, anchored by the two stars Kem and Yodwicha. Sangtiennoi's gym is kind of an old fashioned kaimuay, attached to the family home, it feels old and worn (in a good way), and it is anchored by the Golden Age legend Santiennoi. It's the kind of gym that feels like it has had westerners in it for a long time, more than a decade, but it remains unchanged by that. It has it's Thai boys, a few star fighters or long term westerners, and just goes on the same clock, year after year. With Kem you have incredible surroundings and really sharp, drill Sargent instruction. Sangtiennoi's gym seems to be on the old, Thai clock of a traditional camp. I'm not sure which gym would be better for women, though I do know female fighters who repeatedly returned to each gym. What it may come down to is that one is run by a 30+ year old former star, and one a 50+ year old former star. Both have really great padmen.

There really is no place in Thailand, in fact all the world, for women who want to fight and fight frequently, like Chiang Mai. If this is priority, it really has to be this. But because you really are looking to move longer term how about shuttling between the two? I don't think not knowing Thai would be a problem at Kems. What might be cool is to spend a month at Kems, then go back over to Hongthong, taking with you all the training habits, and techniques you pick up over there and putting them to use in what may perhaps be a more casual environment. As a less experienced fighter the more "material" you give Joe Hongthong, the more he can work with it. You can train up and treat Kems something like a fight camp, and then come down to Hongthong and try to fight a couple of times, and then back up to Kems (if you liked it)? After a month at Kem's you might be ready to be back in the city a little too. Just an idea. An alternative to Kem's (which seems awesome in its own right) might also be Sangtiennoi's gym, another more hardcore, traditional gym, but with a nice inclusive feel.

The two year mark is really interesting for Sylvie. About two years ago, if not a little more, Sylvie went into a very deep clinch game, Muay Khao style. This meant striking a lot less, fortifying herself against attacks when closing distance, and snuffing strikes, developing ways of entering clinch. But in the last few months she's started to really concentrate on relaxation which has opened up other modes of fighting for her, modes that are only starting to show themselves. This really came to a head a week ago when Karuhat, a legendary fighter who has cornered for her a few times, and who we film with, out of nowhere decided to turn Sylvie completely southpaw, because this would eliminate some fundamental technique flaws she's shown against some problematic opponents. This southpaw switch somehow really connected up with what she's been quietly working on, Nongki energy, more Karuhat like suddenness, and is creating a whole different series of style movements. I'm not sure what is going to come of this, but it is as if Sylvie's fortress style was a long and necessary phase she had to pass through before she could get to more relaxation, and a different part of her character. And only really the excellence of her opponents (certain elite fighters who can stay with Sylvie in clinch), and the increasing size of her opponents, which has pushed her to go beyond her very defined "style". It's pretty exciting times.

Also in his next post he compares himself, or rather declares himself a "migrant"/"immigrant" worker as a fighter: https://muaythaiadventurer.wordpress.com/2017/04/16/untitled-1/ To do this in the country of Thailand which has a serious immigrant worker issue, in particular how immigrant Burmese are treated and thought of is more or less insane in my book, and shows how detached from reality he is. No, fighting as a sponsored fighter in a resort/gym in Phuket, in the sunshine is not IN ANY meaningful WAY like the immigrant workers of Thailand. It's not that he "goes too far", it's that he lives, or at least writes, in a very disconnected way.

May want to use this hip stretch to mime the movement. Also making sure you step "outside" of the pad/pad, at an angle can improve kicks very quickly.

I found this article to be a little out of control. I guess he's had some run-in with less than awesome Thais, and I've never lived the Phuket Muay Thai lifestyle, but the generalizations about "Thais" really border on out-right racism. How would that sound? Blacks as inherently deceptive, Mexicans as inherently deceptive, Jews as inherently deceptive? Come on dude.

Imo, Amy might win for other reasons (size advantage, crisp confident striking), but in the clinch it would be Loma. These kinds of trips Amy used work against people less familiar with clinch, those not raised with 1000s of hours of clinch where fundamental balance is established, whereas Loma's attack throws pretty much work against anyone. We'll see though, if Loma can throw Phetjee Jaa when they finally face, whenever that is, a fighter with a very firm base, that will be the proof of her throwing greatness.

There is a Google Map link in this post, it may have an address http://8limbs.us/muay-thai-thailand/sangtiennoi-gym-tough-traditional-muay-thai-legend

When I wrote that I actually had in mind Mickey Rooney's character in Breakfast at Tiffany's, which is cut from the same cloth of Time: Hey, I don't know how closely Mickey Rooney's character and the use of the term Osu are connected, but there do seem to be similarities. One could say that this too is "broadly exotic"...one in the mode of comedy, one in the mode of respect.

Amy Pirnie vs Dakota Ditcheva - Yokkao | March 25th, 2017 The Yokkao broadcast version of this fight will be up eventually, but until then, this edit of their stream. And below a cut up of Amy's dominant trips and sweeps from the fight: I can't emphasize enough how impressed I am with Amy. Everything here is very advanced. Her control of space is like fighting on another plane, and her clinch has so much solid technique, it isn't even a fair fight at that distance. Props to Dakota who is making her way and on her own path as a fighter, but Amy has put the work in over the years and it really shows.

Ha. No need to school you, you are school unto yourself, and I'm always glad to hear your perspective. I'm sorry I'm a little passionate about this stuff.

3-25b ...I should add. One of the most amazing things about Muay Thai that you discover when you spend a long time in Thailand is how mundane it is. It is not some exotic, delicate flower. It's living in 1000s of dusty, tiny gyms. In the minds of 1000s of two-bit fighters turned trainers. There isn't anything purist about it. It would be like being a purist about western boxing in the US in the 1950s. There is no "Muay Thai", there are just thousands and thousands of Muay Thai expressions. This doesn't mean that Muay Thai doesn't have definable characteristics, or that it isn't intimately "Thai", come right from the soil of Thai culture and belief. But there is nothing really to be purist about. It's an incredible every-day thing. It's like being a purist about how a newpaper is read in New York. Okay, there is the whole subway fold. There is the cafe lean back and flap of the pages. But it really is just rather mundane. Or, at least it strikes me that way. One really only becomes a purist of newspaper reading when people no longer read newspapers, seeking to preserve a lost thing, or it's a thing you are cut off from by time or distance. You can imagine former German exchange students arguing about real NYC newspaper reading back in Berlin. Muay Thai isn't really there, at least in Thailand. In Thailand though of course there are ideological battles that surround Muay Thai, and how it portrays or demonstrates Thai history, and National character. These are different kinds of questions, questions important to Thais.

Hey Dana, honestly I'm not even aware of their attacks on Sylvie - or, if I was at some point aware I certainly have forgotten. I don't follow them, and I hardly follow people that follow them. But I guess it doesn't surprise me that they were part of that crew. So this isn't really clapping back. If it was I certainly would have published this as a guest post on Sylvie's blog, instead of keeping it here in my little corner of the internet read by 5 or 6 people. There's a lot one could say in that direction, but I really choose not to get involved. What is involved here are ideas. These things are really important to me, and I think about these things a great deal. I do have to say that the notion that my critique comes from that of being a "purist", I can't really identity with. Purists tend to be removed from their source, romanticizing the distance, preserving something they themselves are detached from. It isn't really "purist" to say: Hey, that Thai word you are using, that isn't a Thai word. In fact, it's not even close. Really, my issue wasn't even with the short film, which you can see here. If I had watched only this I would have perhaps chuckled a little to myself. It was really the quoted description itself that triggered me: OSU is based upon Kevin’s study of the Muay Thai philosophy of ‘osu’ (pronounced ‘oossss’) – the training mantra by which a student steels themselves against any hardship, physical or mental Here you not only have misstatement of fact, its a misstatement in the tone of trying to educate someone (here is how this esoteric word is pronounced), and not only that, but that the film's deep character apparently came out of Kevin's "study" of this concept/principle, a study which may not even have involved knowing where it came from. I'm sorry, this does more than make me shake my head. It makes me say WTF? Now maybe none of this came form Kevin Ross, or even the film makers. Maybe it's this MMA writer's creation, but come on now. If you are going to take up an authoritative tone, and look like you are passing on some knowledge of Muay Thai and it's culture, please have some grasp of reality? re: "But I've found in the end that nothing matters when it comes to public attention; all that matters is the work." I have to say that I disagree with this at the cultural end. Yes, as an artist (which you are), yes!, all that matters is the work. But the artist exchanges something with society when she/he purchases such expressive freedom. Yeah, you can say or do whatever you feel provokes or inspires meaning. But everything you say or do gets placed under critique and criticism. And no, if they had painted Kevin Ross's eyes to be slanted so he looked more "Asian" that would be problem...or at least problematic, not to mention humorous in the wrong way. And yeah, if you are going to create some kind of pan-Asian homage to Muay Thai, that too is going to be subject to an Orientalism charge. It's not a light thing. Yes, we may think it is a light thing because as white folks from the west it doesn't affect us (directly), but it isn't cool. No, not all Asians look alike. No, not all Asian fighting arts are the same art (as much as MMA tries to turn them into one). You don't have to be a purist to say: Hey, wait a minute. Just because it is hard to put words properly, effectively to martial art subjects, doesn't mean that it doesn't matter how we do so. In fact the very difficulty suggests to me the opposite. It means that we should be more careful, more exact, more informative. We don't just free associate, and bring in every sort of unconscious ideological baggage...that is, unless we don't really care about serious critique. As to Arjan and Kru in the west, I just find it silly in most instances, the Fist Foot Way kind of way. Part of the fantasy. Not worth fighting about in my daily go-about. Okay, so you call yourself Arjan. Hmm. No big deal. But it too is worthy of critique.

3-25 I have to say I find myself torn in two very different directions when thinking about western ambitions and appropriations of Muay Thai. On one end we have very sincere, heart-felt, sometimes heart-aching reach toward an art that is perceived as beautiful, if violent, from the framework of the west. People yearn for "World Championship" belts, none of which are such, and cross great distances (both physical and mental) to achieve them, they learn all sorts of "Thai" things, get sak yant (I have them), and across gyms throughout the Land imitate what their coaches learned in the few months, or even years, they spent in the country. There is a great arcing towards "legitimacy" in the sport, almost a desperate need for it. And this has to be respected. This is the human condition. This is a beautiful thing. This is amazing. But, on the other hand almost all of this is fraudulent to some degree. There are no World Championship belts (no rankings), no, Max Muay Thai is not a legitimate, or perhaps one should say authentic Muay Thai fight promotion (it bills itself as "extreme entertainment" I believe). So much of encountering the "Thai" involves hiding film, or bullshitting away, showing "moves" you learned like parlor tricks, it feels like there is a great cabal of deception. And it feels like this has been going on for decades, as if Thailand were Las Vegas...what happens there, stays there. If anything we've learned in our 5 years here, and Sylvie's endless fighting, its that we are JUST learning about what Muay Thai is. We are still reaching toward and peeling back layers. And its fucking incredible. It feels bizarre to see claims or even ambitions to authenticity so far outside the country, when even in the country there is so much more to learn. I used to be much more against these faux World belts, or the use of Kru or Arjan by westerners (that once felt like a big deal, no longer), but following along it feels like a far shore that is absorbed in the distance by fog. That shore is just so proliferate, so wide and long. So many belts, so many truly yearning, leaning into achievement. You can't disparage it. All I can say is: Keep on going! But, in this way, it feels like we are heading for a different shore, one we cannot see at all, and only heard rumor of. Something less exotic, more mundane...something like: just the fight.

3-24 Was just reading this, a summary of a Kevin Ross Muay Thai Journey art film called "Oss". The title of the film is explained this way: OSU is based upon Kevin’s study of the Muay Thai philosophy of ‘osu’ (pronounced ‘oossss’) – the training mantra by which a student steels themselves against any hardship, physical or mental...more here I don't mean to rag on Kevin Ross - who is an American Muay Thai trailblazer, fighting when the sport was very undeveloped in the country and even to this day, practically becoming synonymous with the words "Muay Thai" for many less familiar with the Thai realities of the sport - or on the filmmakers who are admittedly artists and poets...for instance maybe they liked "Oss" because it is typographically like "Ross". But is it wrong to just say: Hey. This is not a Muay Thai philosophy, and that it is pretty stark that one would name a film centered on Muay Thai, Oss? Of all the Thai words available to you, you choose Oss? The problems with this are layered. The first of which is that Muay Thai doesn't really have "a philosophy", at least not one you study. It would take a pretty big stretch to frame one, if you wanted to, in fact what defines Muay Thai in so many ways is that it isn't esoteric, isn't "idea" driven (which is different than saying it has no ideas). Secondly of course, Oss is a Japanese term, one with very ambiguous origins. Read This. And its uses/meanings in Japanese are quite different than how they are used in gyms in the west. Yes, I understand that this term has really proliferated in western contexts, and maybe that is how it somehow got attached to a film about a journey in Muay Thai, but choosing a Japanese term to indicate a supposedly Thai concept is pretty far out there. Why? Well, for one the Japanese more or less tried to steal/appropriate Muay Thai through the invention of "Kickboxing" in the late 1960s and 1970s. Naming a Muay Thai related documentary 'Oss' really comes full circle on this, twisting the cultural knife in a little. To this day there are still tensions/ambitions across this cultural divide. There are additional difficulties, for instance how we in the west tend to treat all things from Asia as the same, ignoring important differences that the peoples of cultures find vital. To flip the script: no, hockey is not the National Sport of the United States, no Ramon Dekkers was not a French Kickboxer. Or one can think about how a lot of how Muay Thai, or other Asia martial arts, are taught in the west involves a sometimes very orientalizing tendency of imitation (for instance, this seems to have been involved in the indiscriminate spread of the term "Oss" itself). Imitation, but without understanding. On one level, none of this really seems to matter. These are very well-meaning creative people doing things that are often quite worthy, and meaningful to themselves and others, helping spread the art/s - and in this particular case exploring the relationship between addiction and authenticity. But hey, on another level preserving the differences between arts is pretty damn important to preserving the arts themselves. You can't just make up the idea that a certain way of thinking is Thai, when in fact it's Japanese, and not lose something. I really have no clue at what level this kind of cross-wiring is occurring. My issue isn't really with this particular confusion, but maybe with the way that Muay Thai is being digested in the west, especially in the all-consuming maw of the UFC which swallows every fighting art it can. And it may very well be that in some American gyms "Oss" pretty much functions as a "Thai" term, said along with a wai, or what not. But at a certain point don't we have to make a correction? Put people on the right track of the culture they believe they are studying when they devote themselves to an art form? Oss is not Thai. In fact, in someways arguably it's very un-Thai.