Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu

Silapathai was one of the great kicking fighters ever. You should watch his kick battle with Karuhat where he simply out kicks the wizard of style. We asked Karuhat "why did you just keep kicking with him?" and said "What else was I going to do?!" He teaches at the old Jockygym (now Skarbowsky Gym) in Bangkok, which brought up Saenchai, Lerdzila, etc. He's amazing. I maybe would only suggest the gym if you plan of taking several privates with him, just to get the focus right. Here is a segment of Sylvie's Patreon session with him: Kem's gym is more of an all-around technical gym. Not specializing in kicks, but certainly teaches beautiful styling, including kicking.

That is super cool. And pretty awesome that it flowed out of the shirts that Sylvie made of Karuhat. This is just the best stuff. Artistic creativity, respect paid, inspiration from others. Btw, it looks great.

As everyone returning to the forum will see we've done a complete redesign of the forum (as well as of 8limbs.us). 8limbs.us has become 8limbsus.com (which will give it more reach out there in the netherworld. And the changes made to the forum are of super-high quality. The forum is now equipped with the latest software, and is very supportive of conversation and community. That being said it's sure to have a few bugs as we go forward in the next month, so please do post any anomalies, confusions or deadends that you run into, just so we can make it better for others. I'll post a list of upgraded features, but one of the better ones is that if you go to your profile you can add your Facebook account which will allow Facebook Login, just signing in with click. That's pretty good, I'm already using it. I have to say that this complete level-up could only be accomplished through the support of our patrons. If you are not yet a patron and appreciate this space and community you can easily become one here: Patreon - Sylvie. Even a $1 a month helps with the new costs of the forum, and gives you access to some incredible exclusive content the likes of which you cannot find anywhere else!

A good thing to work on, stylistically, is that when punches start coming: throw a spear knee, or throw a mid-kick under them. Eventually building awareness of where the "open side" is (where the belly button is pointing toward. It's common to think about trying to counter and defend up top when attacked up top, but knees (or if you like longer distances, kicks) are very high scoring in Muay Thai, and are natural counters to punching combinations. Punches extend and open the body.

Hey Lucy, we've had lots of experiences in changing gyms, or training at multiple gyms. This is the golden rule that we follow. Just take some time and make an experiment. You don't have to make a final or big decision all at once. Maybe tell yourself that you are going to take a month and try the new gym, with the new habits process and just see how it feels. How things feel (including all the elements you are talking about, including the drive) is maybe the most important thing in training. After a month in the new settings you'd be a much better situation to access your needs. Maybe the new gym situation isn't as great as it seems? The glow might wear off after a couple of weeks. Or, maybe the old gym will be missed, but you won't know it until you make the change for a bit. After a month think about it. You'll also know better what you'd like to say to your old gym if decide to make the change permanent. Another option might be to blend gyms. Go to the close-by gym regularly, but take maybe 2 privates a month with your old kru. A private session might be worth the drive and money. It could be a way to maintain a good relationship.

Sasakul gym is really a boxing gym (with several world champions). But the private lessons with Chatchai will improve your balance for Muay Thai, 100%. If you are going to be in BKK in the next 3 weeks you might be able to get privates with Karuhat, but I'm not sure. Send Sylvie a message on her FB page and maybe she can help arrange https://www.facebook.com/sylviemuaythai/

The only real risk with training at a hard training gym like Kem's for a shorter period of time is that of acclimation. It might take you a few days to settle in physically. But Sylvie who is always in fight shape trained there for only a day, and loved it. I would just say that you should try to get your running up, and be ready to be tired.

Lommanee Sor.Tehiran(Thai) vs Fani Peloumpi (Greece) 2017

Adding these photos for Tyler: Map, looks like it's about 40 minutes from Rajadamnern Go to the Google Map link here.

I guess it is natural on the internet to extrapolate from very little information. I just try to restrain from making broad negative judgements from afar. Like in the above, the idea that they aren't taking care of their trainers is kind of absurd, and based on basically nothing. Kru Dam and Bernueng there have been with the gym for ages, and are insanely skilled. It could be that they are having problems with their trainers, but in a fighting gym itinerant trainers are also pretty common, there is always a halo of cycling trainers outside core trainers. It's hard to say which it is. As to the idea that gyms somehow snap into their best behavior when Sylvie shows up this really isn't how it is. Most gyms know very little about Sylvie or what she is, if at all. Her own gym, Petchrungruang where she has been for 4 years, hardly has a real clue about how well-known she is, or whatever her website is - if you can believe that - and don't really care about it. Any "fighting" gym really doesn't think that much about these things. What they do respond to is that she trains like hell, is really knowledgeable, is skilled and speaks Thai, they definitely changes the dynamic, but we also watch how others are treated and what the training is like. I'm not sure where you got the idea that this was some kind of big tourist gym. That's not the feeling I had at all. It's a fighters gym as far as I can tell. Kem is a huge gambler, and loves the game. I can also say that the way the gym treated us when we walked into a festival fight with no corner, and stumbled upon their mat, was nothing short of memorable. They took Sylvie right in and treated her like their fighter at a moment's notice (festival situations can be very political). It said a lot to us how they absorbed her right away into their family of fighters. I'll agree that it is probably a very steep learning curve for a first time in Thailand, but some people like that. Some people are adventurous. Price isn't everything. If you are on a shoestring budget this isn't the place for you. But this is a gorgeous gym in an incredible setting with a very tough training regime. You can't really compare this gym to a Chiang Mai or Hua Hin gym, which are actually tourist gyms, that is, the reason they exist is to serve tourists. This is a fighting gym, or at least it was when we were there. There are gyms that exist in order to serve tourists, and there are gyms that exist to develop Thais, and use tourist dollars to supplement their fighter development, that's the pleasure of the gym. The good ones, like this, then allow the tourists to integrate with the "real" gym. That's the feeling we had when we were there. It's not easy to integrate if you aren't the focus, and gyms go through bad periods, sometimes for a long time, but the chance to get to be close to the "real" business of Muay Thai is kind of irreplaceable. You aren't the boss because you are a customer. When you aren't the boss because you are a customer you can have a hard time finding your spot in the system. The only way in is through work and attitude. It can leave you with mixed feelings. You don't feel valued sometimes, or left out. As a sidenote, and really, this is going off our short visits to the gym, the clinch focus at this gym was some of the best we'd encountered in Thailand. This not a small thing. Nobody knows how to clinch in the west, more or less. When you come to Thailand you want to clinch. So few "tourist" gyms focus on clinch in the Thai way. You need to work against Thais, you need lots of hours in the ring. It's the only way to learn the balance. It's not really imitate-able. Again, the gym might have changed, but this was one of the few gyms we've encountered which was very clinch focused in the real kaimuay sense. Hey, it's up on a mountain. It's been running for a while. Things can get into a rut. I don't know. But I think it a big mistake to impune Kem with some pretty harsh assumptions, that he doesn't give a shit about westerners in his gym, or his trainers. Those are some kind of hardcore things to toss out there, even as "maybes" from very little information. I know you had a lot of time at Master Toddy's, at least from our experience there is no gym we've ever seen like Master Toddy's (though some of the dynamics we've seen). This isn't like Master Toddy's gym. I'm not going to say that this is an easy gym to go to, but it has some elements that are very hard to find in Thailand and that are worth experiencing. This is one of the most interesting questions about coming to Thailand to train. How much do you need to be the focus (in a customer experience way), and how much do you need to submit to a "real" kaimuay dynamic (which means you aren't the focus, and really, that you aren't very important)? There are gyms that take advantage of this differential and just offer shit training, but it doesn't really sound by his description that this is what was happening. Honestly, I thought this was a great review of a mixed experience. It didn't sound like he was miserable, but more like there were things that bothered him a little. Take this: -Repetitive Training: Although the training is hard, it is a little repetitive at times if you ask me. We did the same exercises day-in and day-out with the only difference being the number of rounds for each one. The training is pretty much oriented on the basics and fundamentals as well. They will make sure you can do a proper jab, a proper kick, and so on.. One thing I didn't like too much as well was the fact for the clinching sessions they were just making you clinch and throwing you on the ground, they weren't really breaking down techniques much. Although this approach has its benefits, I believe taking like 5-10 minutes to properly show a technique would have been a good addition as well. This is actually REAL Thai training. You are experiencing exactly how Thais learn. Lots, and lots and lots of repetition with lots and lots of focus on the basics. You do innumerable rounds on the bag or pads. To be honest about it, this is not that far from some "wax on, wax off" Kung Fu shit. Something deeper is being instructed than you realize. And yes, exactly that, in clinch you get dumped on the ground endlessly. This is how Thais build fighters. It takes a really long time, but this is it. Learning clinch for instance, and looking for technique breakdowns (I understand how someone would want this, but it isn't how it is done) would be like trying to learn "surfing breakdowns" and not wanting to fall off the board. For Thais you just get on the board and try to keep on it, again and again. It can be very frustrating, and feel like you are being abused, but once you give into it (stop being the customer) and start relying on yourself to solve the problem, you start to grow in a deep way. You haven't "learned" a trick, externally, you develop it. You watch others, you experiment. You solve. This is how it is done. For a long time Sylvie was clinching with Bank, her own gym's owner's son, who had an incredible lock. He would just very painfully lock her. He wouldn't even knee really. He would just crush her. It didn't feel nice at all. Eventually she just had to solve it. She learned that she couldn't really get out of the lock so she had to learn how to defeat the move before it locked in. It took a long time, maybe months, but she learned. It would have been a very different experience if she was just shown the "counter" and drilled it over and over in a class like situation against a westerner. It's a very different kind of knowledge that she has now. This is how technique is taught in kaimuay situations. High repetition, lots of problem solving. The point is that something that disappointed the reviewer (and I get it, you want to be shown) is actually coming in contact with "real" Muay Thai. And, there is something very valuable in that. The problem is, this kind of process takes a long time. And, it feels a little uncaring. It's a form of immersion. It would be like learning a language by just having people talk at you. You learn nothing at all for a while, but then as you get your feet, you learn much more deeply. By letting westerners into this training approach the gym is actually generous. It's not distorting it's culture of what Muay Thai is to accommodate you. You are able to get in touch with real Muay Thai. Now, whether this is of value to you in a 1 month or 3 month trip is a different story. Sure, you can pop on down to Hua Hin, hang on the beach a little, learn 3 counter moves and 2 trips, practice them all the time, and come home to your home gym and kick people's ass who don't know those moves. Totally. But that isn't really Muay Thai, in the Thai process. People come to Thailand hoping to get the "hack", the short cut to real techniques. It's the home of techniques, but the nature of how Muay Thai is traditionally taught is the opposite. It's slow. That's why you kind of have to decide in a real sense how much you need to be the focus, and how much you want to feel real Muay Thai processes, and find a gym that is on the spectrum in the right place for you. This is one of the most important questions to answer when coming to train in the country.

No doubt, you are a big guy! But, it is probably better to learn how to clinch against smaller Thais that really know what they are doing in the clinch, with long clinch sessions, and it is to go against big westerners who don't really have the expertise, less frequently. You really want to be exposed to technique. Of course this operates on a scale, and it's hard to assess from afar. Kru San (re: Tyler's comment) who is a pretty big guy at Sitmonchai, but I don't know if he clinches. I'll tell you though he's impressive with his strikes. You can watch a private session with Kru San on Sylvie's Patreon. He's kind of incredible. He's recently begun fighting again, after several years of retirement.

wow, a lot of negative assumptions there Tyler. "trying to make money off a couple of big names", "don't give a shit", etc. Hmmm. Tough to be saying these things from afar, never having met these people. The price for instance, last I checked, was pretty commensurate with Sangtennoi's gym, which is a grade A gym as well, also in a rural setting (if I remember the pricing correctly). Kem isn't just a "big name", he actively runs the training with a very close eye. He was extremely present the few times we've trained there, bringing exactness and toughness to the sessions. Yodwicha isn't just a "big name", he was incredibly generous clinching with Sylvie (huge size difference) patiently teaching his techniques to her. I've never seen a superstar be more generous, more patient. I understand we all can make broad judgements about Thais, from afar, based on our past experiences with others, but we always found Kem and his team to be authentic as persons. If I had to pick one gym that Sylvie would train at for an upcoming fight for a month, Kem's would probably be one of 3 I can think of in all of Thailand. This isn't to say that the gym might not have it's ups and downs, all gyms do, but they've been pretty awesome with us.

2/26 Arg. Long time not writing about my love of training and Muay Thai. Smh. This has been the problem. I'm a consistency guy. I like to do the same thing, the same way, over and over and over. Same time. Same situation or mental framework. I can power through almost anything this way. But...Muay Thai isn't really set up like that for me. There are lots of interruptions of schedule. When Sylvie fights we travel for days at a time. Sometimes when she's in an off mood I stay away from the gym. And sometimes it's just events that come up. Sylvie got sick. Sylvie's family came and visited. 100 things. I'd call them excuses, but really they are something else for me. Reminders that as yet Muay Thai is not a commitment for me. Not a full, hardcore commitment that I want it to be. I want to be 100% uninterrupted, and it hasn't been happening, at all. That's on me, but it's also a part of just how I'm wading into to this. I'm trying to get to the place where I can just dive in and not come up for a year or two. That's my Happy Place. That being said, after several months of serious interruptions, I've come back to regular training with Pi Nu, and am absolutely loving it. He's just a crazy good instructor, always pulling me forward to higher tolerances. More rhythm. More beauty. More forcefulness. And yes, better condition. Speaking of conditioning, something that really overshadowed my Muay Thai was a deeper realization. A more fucked up realization. If I stay at this weight I'm going to die. There are very, very few old fat people. Certainly not old people my size. The arrow really hit home when we went to the hospital to get my eyes checked. I had been experiencing some blurred vision that I feared might be degeneration of some kind, or possibly something related to pre-diabetes. Turns out my eyes are fucking healthy, as far as the examination went, but the nurse's eyes bugged out when she took my blood pressure. It was way, WAY up. Something like 160/110 maybe? Took a lot of Googling to figure out just how bad that is, but it looks like my sedentary life of just doing digital work, and nothing else, and eating a storm of salt and sugars, has absolutely wrecked my body. Or is fast on the pace of wrecking my body. This is serious stuff. I'm not going to be around to see Sylvie do her incredible things if I'm not going to be around. We set an appointment to see a doctor about it in Pattaya, I got prescribed high blood pressure medicine, and long story short I got full-on serious about my weight and my health. Big Time. First thing I did was take control of my diet. Salt out. Sugar out. Potassium in. But, the biggest thing I did - and please, no health or diet advice, I've Googled the hell out of this and I've made my decision - is that I've returned to the one thing that got me to successfully lose weight previously in my life when I got a little big (not this big at all, but still big). I've started to alternate day fast, and honestly I love it. It changes my relationship to food which is really what needed to happen. Fasting does all kinds of wonderful things to mice and such, and you can read up on it all yourself, but this is something I believe in. And that, more than anything, is what this is about. I feel much, much better, know that I'm heading in the right direction, and I just hope that I haven't done too much damage in the last 4 years of living in a very unhealthy way. I'm due to go to the doctor next week for blood work, and probably a re-up on the hypertension medication, but what this is really about is that you have to realize what is precious and what it takes to keep it in your life. And Sylvie is precious. Not having a life pretty much ends all questions of value. So, my return to consistent Muay Thai (it's going to be interrupted again next week by travel, but that's ok) is much more to be seen in the context of my alternate day fasting, and my transformation of my diet. My body is definitely changing, and I suspect that I should be in the healthy zone of weight in about 8 months. Here's to hoping that my insides improve as much as my appearance. Below is a photo from today at 113.5 kg (250 lbs), starting many months ago at 126 kg (278 lbs). It's not all come off from Muay Thai, but it is definitely pitching in. About the Muay Thai itself, it's just insanely satisfying. I clinched for the very first time in my life with a giant of a person (no really, much bigger than me which was cool) and got my neck wrenched big time - about 5 days of pretty terrific neck pain - but I was proud of myself trying all sorts of defensive maneuvers in my very first clinch. It was honestly the only thing I could do as he was just so big I couldn't even lock on him, and very strong. But face smush with walk forward, a little drag back, a shoulder roll to break the hand position. Small things, but so cool to be able to try and do them. A few things I loved discovering in pad work with Pi Nu. I was kicking ok, but I found that when I started adopting the Pinsinchai Reach (the way Pinsinchai fighters extend their arm defensively instead of swinging it back) that my power, relaxation and accuracy went up. I didn't expect that at all. I really like that reach and am going to keep up with it because it dovetails perfectly with the cross reach on knees (cross-grabbing the shoulder cap of the pad holder, using your own shoulder to defend and shield). They are the same basic motion, and it feels like they could mask each other. There also seem like there can be other things thrown off this reach. Elbows, feints. I also have been having huge problems with my lead teep. Pi Nu really likes to call a lot of this, and is adamant that it to be done, both defensively and offensively. I just can't get my leg up and have all the parts and pieces come together. It feels out of body uncoordinated. But, I tried the Pinsinchai reach on the teep (you aren't really supposed to do this) and it improved my teep pretty quickly. So I'm just going to play around with that. Extending the arm could intimate a jab or just be a high distraction. It seems like fun. I'm not there yet, but I inched forward. I also get in the ring with Sylvie and let her beat me around the space, so she can work on just staying close against a big figure, and so I can, well, get beat on. It feels really good to see the rhythms right there in front of me, and to feel the results of impact. Like it might feel good to feel the water splash in your eyes if you were trying to become a swimmer. If I ever fight - who knows - this kind of beat around and catching of strikes (I just wear my gloves) is putting the Muay Thai right in me. And again, it feels good. That's all for now. For any that are following this drivel of an account, good things happening. Next week is a travel week, but maybe I'll do some shadow boxing every day, or something more to get the Muay Thai bug biting.

It's looking like the date is going to be somewhere around April 5th. As to the cost we are still figuring out it. Because we are trying to really limit the number of people to maybe 12 people only, so it will feel as close to possible to personal training. The difficulty with this is that it will probably be pretty expensive. We want to make sure the legends get their respectful due. Adding to the cost is that out of nowhere another legend has said he wants to be a part of it too! We should know by the middle of February if not sooner most of the details, and will be posting a Facebook Event to keep everything coordinated.

Watch this video of a very tiny Thai girl fighting an incredible round against a Thai boy. Little Girl Thai Fighter Let's leave aside any personal feelings you may have about child fighting, child safety, etc. And Let's leave out the arguments about gender. There is something unreal in this video, something kind of incredible. This little girl, who probably has had very few fights, and very few sparring sessions, as an acute sense of distance. In her miniature approximations you see essential Thai, as in Thailand, Muay Thai fighting characteristics. The retreat is just out of range, but not only just out of range, it's done with emotional equanimity, not out of fear, just a little step back. And, then her snapbacks with punches, closing the distance again. The counter rhythm is repeated over and over again. This is core femeu control of space, something even western fighters literally with decades of experience cannot, or do not care to manage. The retreating, scoring fighter. Where does this come from? How does this get communicated in such a basic, beautiful way to a little girl? What is the method of transference? This Sense of (Defensive) Space, I suspect, is buried deeply in Thai culture, perhaps in it's Buddhist roots. One of the earliest accounts of Muay Thai, and the first account of a Farang vs Thai match up (Thai Fight 1788!), resulted in the westerner becoming infuriated at the retreat of the King's champion, Mun Phlan, selected to face a Frenchmen who challenged the court: Now of course there are forward fighting styles in Thailand's Muay Thai, many of them, and renowned fighters who owned them. But there a thin golden thread that seems to stretch from the late 18th century all the way to this little girl who preternaturally has absorbed the art of space.

In Chiang Mai Thapae Stadium is probably the best. Chiang Mai Boxing Stadium also has fights (Facebook: Chiangmai Boxing Stadium), as well as the new Kalare Night Market Stadium (Facebook: Chiangmai Nightbazaar Boxing Stadium).

I think it just has to be a photo. But I'm not sure, I haven't tried putting in a GIF. The GIF though, if it would work, would have to be hosted somewhere else.

What a great, detailed review. Sylvie hasn't been training full time in many gyms, but the lack of clinch instruction, technically, is pretty common I believe. This is how the Thais learn. You get thrown, and thrown, and thrown, and locked and locked and locked, and you figure out it. It's a very difficult way to learn in the short term, but it's how they all learn. Also, the repetitive training on basics is also very Thai. Even very advanced fighters train heavily in the basics. Again, how they all learn.

There are some how look to Taekwondo's inclusion in the Olympics (for roughly 12 years as a demonstration sport, and then as a medal sport in 2000) as a model for the kind of leap Muay Thai might be able to make. And yes, Taekwondo has received plenty of criticism for how things unfolded. But, it's worth looking at how Muay Thai fairs against TKD in the world and in the US:

A year later, just checking the trends. "Muay Thai" (as a sport) in October hit was at the lowest, World Wide, that it's been since 2004, in terms of search percentage interest: In the United States it also hit the lowest point since 2004: If you want a point of comparison with another sport/art that got a big boost from MMA and the UFC, in the United States you can see the difference between Muay Thai and BJJ: If you are thinking seriously about the future Muay Thai, in the world, this is data that should be discussed. The trends continue.

I don't know if Natalie ever told you, but --- if I remember correctly --- when she lost a close decision she felt she had won to Julie Kitchen the ref (was it Big John McCarthy, or am I inventing that part of the memory) told her afterwards, something to the order: "Because of your look, you can't expect a win." Sorry for totally screwing up the memory of what she told us a long while ago, but it is was something along those lines. Incredible. The way Natalie told it it was almost as if the guy was telling her this as a consolation.

Perhaps the answer to this impassible union between marketing and sexuality is to embrace that there are so many sexualities that can be expressed by fighting women, that the "sexy" isn't just a glossy Swimsuit sexuality, but that there are gritty, or ardent, or geeky, or "x" sexualities, that can intensify marketability. Yeah, it would be awesome if it was just a question of "skills", but in the marketing of fighting there may always be a dimension of "sex" that is never left behind. You see this in men too, in a way. There was even a kind of Boss Hog aura of attractiveness being pushed in someone like Big Country. Perhaps this is the thin line which could create more inclusion.

This is the second piece of the Golden Kick, the slight pivot or open step that is used to create the last acceleration, after the turn: I've reedited the compilation of kicks to focus on the standing leg.

This is also a very good example of the not-the-Golden-Kick kick: Bas Rutten, a much higher level kicker than Aldo. But you can really see the "baseball bat" analogy in his kick. Interestingly, the outward pointed foot, or the foot swing/pivot that he uses is something that many of the Thais in the compilation use to create the end acceleration. They just are not swinging in a wide arc, at all. Sagat in particular, when teaching Sylvie (that video will be up on Patreon next month) really used that foot plant angle to create the later whip.

Someone posted this on Reddit, a good (and extreme) example of the "baseball bat", more circular approach, from Jose Aldo: If you compare this to what is in the compilation video you'll have a pretty good idea of the difference.