Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu

There is a Google Map link in this post, it may have an address http://8limbs.us/muay-thai-thailand/sangtiennoi-gym-tough-traditional-muay-thai-legend

When I wrote that I actually had in mind Mickey Rooney's character in Breakfast at Tiffany's, which is cut from the same cloth of Time: Hey, I don't know how closely Mickey Rooney's character and the use of the term Osu are connected, but there do seem to be similarities. One could say that this too is "broadly exotic"...one in the mode of comedy, one in the mode of respect.

Amy Pirnie vs Dakota Ditcheva - Yokkao | March 25th, 2017 The Yokkao broadcast version of this fight will be up eventually, but until then, this edit of their stream. And below a cut up of Amy's dominant trips and sweeps from the fight: I can't emphasize enough how impressed I am with Amy. Everything here is very advanced. Her control of space is like fighting on another plane, and her clinch has so much solid technique, it isn't even a fair fight at that distance. Props to Dakota who is making her way and on her own path as a fighter, but Amy has put the work in over the years and it really shows.

Ha. No need to school you, you are school unto yourself, and I'm always glad to hear your perspective. I'm sorry I'm a little passionate about this stuff.

3-25b ...I should add. One of the most amazing things about Muay Thai that you discover when you spend a long time in Thailand is how mundane it is. It is not some exotic, delicate flower. It's living in 1000s of dusty, tiny gyms. In the minds of 1000s of two-bit fighters turned trainers. There isn't anything purist about it. It would be like being a purist about western boxing in the US in the 1950s. There is no "Muay Thai", there are just thousands and thousands of Muay Thai expressions. This doesn't mean that Muay Thai doesn't have definable characteristics, or that it isn't intimately "Thai", come right from the soil of Thai culture and belief. But there is nothing really to be purist about. It's an incredible every-day thing. It's like being a purist about how a newpaper is read in New York. Okay, there is the whole subway fold. There is the cafe lean back and flap of the pages. But it really is just rather mundane. Or, at least it strikes me that way. One really only becomes a purist of newspaper reading when people no longer read newspapers, seeking to preserve a lost thing, or it's a thing you are cut off from by time or distance. You can imagine former German exchange students arguing about real NYC newspaper reading back in Berlin. Muay Thai isn't really there, at least in Thailand. In Thailand though of course there are ideological battles that surround Muay Thai, and how it portrays or demonstrates Thai history, and National character. These are different kinds of questions, questions important to Thais.

Hey Dana, honestly I'm not even aware of their attacks on Sylvie - or, if I was at some point aware I certainly have forgotten. I don't follow them, and I hardly follow people that follow them. But I guess it doesn't surprise me that they were part of that crew. So this isn't really clapping back. If it was I certainly would have published this as a guest post on Sylvie's blog, instead of keeping it here in my little corner of the internet read by 5 or 6 people. There's a lot one could say in that direction, but I really choose not to get involved. What is involved here are ideas. These things are really important to me, and I think about these things a great deal. I do have to say that the notion that my critique comes from that of being a "purist", I can't really identity with. Purists tend to be removed from their source, romanticizing the distance, preserving something they themselves are detached from. It isn't really "purist" to say: Hey, that Thai word you are using, that isn't a Thai word. In fact, it's not even close. Really, my issue wasn't even with the short film, which you can see here. If I had watched only this I would have perhaps chuckled a little to myself. It was really the quoted description itself that triggered me: OSU is based upon Kevin’s study of the Muay Thai philosophy of ‘osu’ (pronounced ‘oossss’) – the training mantra by which a student steels themselves against any hardship, physical or mental Here you not only have misstatement of fact, its a misstatement in the tone of trying to educate someone (here is how this esoteric word is pronounced), and not only that, but that the film's deep character apparently came out of Kevin's "study" of this concept/principle, a study which may not even have involved knowing where it came from. I'm sorry, this does more than make me shake my head. It makes me say WTF? Now maybe none of this came form Kevin Ross, or even the film makers. Maybe it's this MMA writer's creation, but come on now. If you are going to take up an authoritative tone, and look like you are passing on some knowledge of Muay Thai and it's culture, please have some grasp of reality? re: "But I've found in the end that nothing matters when it comes to public attention; all that matters is the work." I have to say that I disagree with this at the cultural end. Yes, as an artist (which you are), yes!, all that matters is the work. But the artist exchanges something with society when she/he purchases such expressive freedom. Yeah, you can say or do whatever you feel provokes or inspires meaning. But everything you say or do gets placed under critique and criticism. And no, if they had painted Kevin Ross's eyes to be slanted so he looked more "Asian" that would be problem...or at least problematic, not to mention humorous in the wrong way. And yeah, if you are going to create some kind of pan-Asian homage to Muay Thai, that too is going to be subject to an Orientalism charge. It's not a light thing. Yes, we may think it is a light thing because as white folks from the west it doesn't affect us (directly), but it isn't cool. No, not all Asians look alike. No, not all Asian fighting arts are the same art (as much as MMA tries to turn them into one). You don't have to be a purist to say: Hey, wait a minute. Just because it is hard to put words properly, effectively to martial art subjects, doesn't mean that it doesn't matter how we do so. In fact the very difficulty suggests to me the opposite. It means that we should be more careful, more exact, more informative. We don't just free associate, and bring in every sort of unconscious ideological baggage...that is, unless we don't really care about serious critique. As to Arjan and Kru in the west, I just find it silly in most instances, the Fist Foot Way kind of way. Part of the fantasy. Not worth fighting about in my daily go-about. Okay, so you call yourself Arjan. Hmm. No big deal. But it too is worthy of critique.

3-25 I have to say I find myself torn in two very different directions when thinking about western ambitions and appropriations of Muay Thai. On one end we have very sincere, heart-felt, sometimes heart-aching reach toward an art that is perceived as beautiful, if violent, from the framework of the west. People yearn for "World Championship" belts, none of which are such, and cross great distances (both physical and mental) to achieve them, they learn all sorts of "Thai" things, get sak yant (I have them), and across gyms throughout the Land imitate what their coaches learned in the few months, or even years, they spent in the country. There is a great arcing towards "legitimacy" in the sport, almost a desperate need for it. And this has to be respected. This is the human condition. This is a beautiful thing. This is amazing. But, on the other hand almost all of this is fraudulent to some degree. There are no World Championship belts (no rankings), no, Max Muay Thai is not a legitimate, or perhaps one should say authentic Muay Thai fight promotion (it bills itself as "extreme entertainment" I believe). So much of encountering the "Thai" involves hiding film, or bullshitting away, showing "moves" you learned like parlor tricks, it feels like there is a great cabal of deception. And it feels like this has been going on for decades, as if Thailand were Las Vegas...what happens there, stays there. If anything we've learned in our 5 years here, and Sylvie's endless fighting, its that we are JUST learning about what Muay Thai is. We are still reaching toward and peeling back layers. And its fucking incredible. It feels bizarre to see claims or even ambitions to authenticity so far outside the country, when even in the country there is so much more to learn. I used to be much more against these faux World belts, or the use of Kru or Arjan by westerners (that once felt like a big deal, no longer), but following along it feels like a far shore that is absorbed in the distance by fog. That shore is just so proliferate, so wide and long. So many belts, so many truly yearning, leaning into achievement. You can't disparage it. All I can say is: Keep on going! But, in this way, it feels like we are heading for a different shore, one we cannot see at all, and only heard rumor of. Something less exotic, more mundane...something like: just the fight.

3-24 Was just reading this, a summary of a Kevin Ross Muay Thai Journey art film called "Oss". The title of the film is explained this way: OSU is based upon Kevin’s study of the Muay Thai philosophy of ‘osu’ (pronounced ‘oossss’) – the training mantra by which a student steels themselves against any hardship, physical or mental...more here I don't mean to rag on Kevin Ross - who is an American Muay Thai trailblazer, fighting when the sport was very undeveloped in the country and even to this day, practically becoming synonymous with the words "Muay Thai" for many less familiar with the Thai realities of the sport - or on the filmmakers who are admittedly artists and poets...for instance maybe they liked "Oss" because it is typographically like "Ross". But is it wrong to just say: Hey. This is not a Muay Thai philosophy, and that it is pretty stark that one would name a film centered on Muay Thai, Oss? Of all the Thai words available to you, you choose Oss? The problems with this are layered. The first of which is that Muay Thai doesn't really have "a philosophy", at least not one you study. It would take a pretty big stretch to frame one, if you wanted to, in fact what defines Muay Thai in so many ways is that it isn't esoteric, isn't "idea" driven (which is different than saying it has no ideas). Secondly of course, Oss is a Japanese term, one with very ambiguous origins. Read This. And its uses/meanings in Japanese are quite different than how they are used in gyms in the west. Yes, I understand that this term has really proliferated in western contexts, and maybe that is how it somehow got attached to a film about a journey in Muay Thai, but choosing a Japanese term to indicate a supposedly Thai concept is pretty far out there. Why? Well, for one the Japanese more or less tried to steal/appropriate Muay Thai through the invention of "Kickboxing" in the late 1960s and 1970s. Naming a Muay Thai related documentary 'Oss' really comes full circle on this, twisting the cultural knife in a little. To this day there are still tensions/ambitions across this cultural divide. There are additional difficulties, for instance how we in the west tend to treat all things from Asia as the same, ignoring important differences that the peoples of cultures find vital. To flip the script: no, hockey is not the National Sport of the United States, no Ramon Dekkers was not a French Kickboxer. Or one can think about how a lot of how Muay Thai, or other Asia martial arts, are taught in the west involves a sometimes very orientalizing tendency of imitation (for instance, this seems to have been involved in the indiscriminate spread of the term "Oss" itself). Imitation, but without understanding. On one level, none of this really seems to matter. These are very well-meaning creative people doing things that are often quite worthy, and meaningful to themselves and others, helping spread the art/s - and in this particular case exploring the relationship between addiction and authenticity. But hey, on another level preserving the differences between arts is pretty damn important to preserving the arts themselves. You can't just make up the idea that a certain way of thinking is Thai, when in fact it's Japanese, and not lose something. I really have no clue at what level this kind of cross-wiring is occurring. My issue isn't really with this particular confusion, but maybe with the way that Muay Thai is being digested in the west, especially in the all-consuming maw of the UFC which swallows every fighting art it can. And it may very well be that in some American gyms "Oss" pretty much functions as a "Thai" term, said along with a wai, or what not. But at a certain point don't we have to make a correction? Put people on the right track of the culture they believe they are studying when they devote themselves to an art form? Oss is not Thai. In fact, in someways arguably it's very un-Thai.

They get a percentage of fight pay. The percentage varies greatly.

This is not possible really. There is zero financial incentive for a Thai-style gym to support a westerner like this. Thai gyms raise up (in many cases like adoption) boys who have left their family, or in some cases take the contracts of Thai boys from the provinces, and train them with the hope that they will become champions, adding prestige to a gym, and a percentage of their winnings at major stadia. These are long term relationships (to generalize), an economy of investment that only in very, very rare cases to westerners get near. This is not something that you "sign up for". Western fighters almost never have this value. As I said though, sponsorship by gyms in commercial areas, usually in Phuket, but sometimes elsewhere, for established western fighters, sometimes happens, if they feel that that fighter will add to their business (get them more customers in some way).

If you mean for "free" (which isn't really free), like Thai boys, this is not possible except in unique situations in places like Phuket, if you are already an established, sponsored fighter. If you mean only "in" the gym, many gyms offer housing in the gym. Sitmonchai, Sangtiennoi, etc. But you have to pay for room and board, as well as training.

Anissa Meksen vs. Elena Mishchuk FB Link: https://www.facebook.com/laurent.morin.90/videos/10212264694869840/

When we were in BKK he assumed we are traveling by taxi. Taxi seems the way to get to the gym.

It is on the mid- to high end, I believe 1,000 baht a day, 30,000 baht a month. But it includes room and 2 meals a day.

It is going to be very hard to find a Thai to fight anywhere near that weight. As NewThai says, you'll probably be matched against another foreigner, so maybe Phuket could be the best place to be. Weight classes are not rigid. If you are new to fighting there is a possibility that you could be matched against a smaller, experienced Thai.

:) :) :) No worries about the size at all. It was only to remark that the trans-gender I am speaking of stands somewhat in contrast with the large, masculinization of the female body images above it. It's a very loaded term these days, and I'm using it here uniquely...or at least with a kind of literalization.

2-24 Well, this diary writing process just isn't working out how I hoped it would, so I'm just going to have to use the thread haphazardly, to note and semi-explore thoughts that come to me. And the topic today unfortunately follows upon some giant female masculinity images, posted above, so it might be misconstrued (nothing against those images, but they are not the direction of where I am heading). I've wanted to write about what might be called Sylvie's trans-gender project, but in order to appreciate my vector in this it may be worth people reading my essay written 10 years ago: Wasps, Orchids, Beetles and Crickets: A Menagerie of Change in Transgender Identification It contains the architecture of my thought: how mapping across genus can effect transformative becoming, and a clue to how I see Sylvie's project. I'm going to take the short cut here, and not re-trace most of the concepts I'm working with. I'm using this space somewhat selfishly, as a note-taking reservoir, posting semi-publicly (as few know about this corner of the internet), in case these thoughts will be of interest to others. The most important concept here is one of the diagnostic analogy used by Deleuze and Guatarri, that of the Workhorse and the Ox. Here are some secondary texts that seek to illuminate this diagnostic, along with the concept of the Body Without Organs: and: and then on the Body Without Organs (BwO): This is what is incomparable in what Sylvie is doing and has done so far. By undergoing training regimes very close to, and many times surpassing in intensification, those used to inculcate young males as fighters, and submitting to fighting regimes that really surpass in frequency almost any Thai male examples (165+ fights in 5 years), she has performed and IS performing a mapping that is incredibly in-tense, outlining - one might say - on (her/the) Body Without Organs a cartographic transformation, across gender, across culture, across age, much like Deleuze and Guattari might prioritize the "becoming-woman" of desiring streams ("...becoming-woman or the molecular woman is the girl herself"), inversely the mapping is the "becoming-warrior", the molecular man as boy, submitting oneself to the outrageous process of masculinization as fighter to map a frequency/fate onto the body, the electrify it, to create the masculine egg surface ultimately without molarity, producing only the fight...the apparition in the ring, where fear and desire clash creating a shore, a sketched out line of becoming. This is where the Ox and the Workhorse come into play. No matter her origins, her scale of affluence (by culture) or deprivation (by gender norm), in submitting to this project, this kind of becoming-horse, what matters is not comparisons. It is not about "good" and "bad" copies of the original. This is about surpassing, or really under-passing copies and approximations: (ie, not about "fighting well", or "using good technique" or "fighting like a Thai", blah, blah, blah, all those goals). Very possibly no fighter in history has attempted this kind of catalyzation, to this degree. Ironically enough, this IS really the story of Kickboxer (the vapid JCVD male fantasy), but taken to nth and serious degree, its perverse literalization and de-mythologized potential. It is where the Ox and the Workhorse have the most in common, despite sedimented, (obvious) molar (organized) dissimilarities, genealogies. Ultimately this is a project of ritual and rite, and maybe is only half-way done at this point, knowing that it can never be "done", throwing oneself "up" and "out", hinging techniques like trapezes, along a line of fear, consolidated by commitment. No doubt this is just meandering jargon to some - but this is my sketchbook.

Did not know this existed. It does seem that it is Katya's channel, more than Sandra's. Sandra came and trained with Sylvie for a few days before fighting in the IFMAs, and becoming the Swedish champion.

Sangtiennoi's gym look pretty awesome to us. Traditional, western friendly, connected, a legendary fighter.

This is Sylvie's list of gym recommendations thread, where you can ask follow up questions: http://8limbs.us/muay-thai-forum/topic/793-my-list-of-muay-thai-gyms-i-recommend-in-thailand/

This is not a gym for someone who is not familiar with or connected in Isaan, I would say. It's run by a wonderful family, and represents and trains diverse fighters in the Buriram area, but no English or western language is spoken. We did not see training sessions there, but it appeared quite informal. This is more a gym for someone looking for complete adventure and immersion, I think, not a gym to go to if expecting to fight or be trained in a rigorous way. If you are going to be in Isaan I'd recommend Kem Muaythai Gym. Sylvie's Article: http://8limbs.us/muay-thai-thailand/kem-muaythai-gym-khorat-hardcore-beautiful-clinch-gym

I think a lot of this is just how connected the gym is to regular female fighting. A gym that is either very focused on its Thai stadium fighters, or on pushing westerners through its training (making $$$ that way), may not be connected enough with the kinds of opponents that might be good for you. Sylvie herself isn't really booked for fights by her own gym, Petchrungruang, because they just are not "about" female fighting. I can't speak for Phuket, but Chiang Mai is so full of fights, and has so many regularly fighting Thai females, most of the gyms there can book a pretty good fight in a moment's notice. But...with a two week window I would say that you want to communicate this all up front, as soon as you get there. I'm here to fight, I want to fight. I'm not sure that a gym like Santai or even Hongthong would book you this quickly (it really depends on how fight ready you are), but if you show you are game, focused and serious about it, I DO think Lanna would book you. We regularly heard that serious students could be made ready to fight in 1 or 2 weeks, with the appropriate match up. Chiang Mai is just unique in this way, and Lanna unique too. But yes, we've heard many stories about women thinking they were going to get a fight at the end of their training at various gyms, and it just doesn't happen. In each of Sylvie's trips to Thailand she fought about 2 weeks in, after arrival, I think. But she really pushed for that.

If you decide to go there Sylvie can help communicate your desire to fight to Daeng, the head trainer, perhaps in advance. Just message her on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/sylviemuaythai/

If you go to Lanna Muay Thai in Chiang Mai I think there should not be a problem setting up such a fight. They are very fight friendly, and there are lots of opponents in Chiang Mai.

That was a very good movie, one of the first and most inspiring. Ironically enough, we didn't realize that the gym portrayed in that movie was Lanna Muay Thai, Sylvie's gym for a long time. We only really realized it over time. Nong Toom even cornered for Sylvie in one of her first big promotion fights: I love this photo. Nong Toom has a very strange sadness about her, or at least she did when in this promotion (she fought too). It is captured in this moment. Interestingly enough, probably Sylvie's best friend at the gym is Angie, a trans-fighter who idolizes Nong Toom. Sylvie is almost a kind of living connection between the two.