Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu

You see this in Muay Boran styles like Muay Chaiya, at least as it is taught in Bangkok by Kru Lek. You get a real sense of "defense first", but defense itself has an offensive structure, or the difference between offense and defense is really blurred. This always struck me as the sign of a style's proximity to actual warfare. The very first rule of warfare fighting would be "Do not get killed", and then "Do not become disabled". When you see styles that are founded on rock solid defense (and in my book "evasion" is not rock solid because you can evade, evade, evade, and once you fail, you are dead - or, when a second attacker arrived) it just feels like it's the warfare logic. Those Chaiya, Lertrit styles, where defense becomes wounding, and you are always only a move or two from finishing the fight. That feels very realistic to battlefield demands.

Muay Lertrit is a very interesting example, it's like no other branch of Muay Thai or Muay Boran because it actually has root influences from other traditional martial arts. As the General explained, it's inventor was a Navy man who traveled regularly, and very likely picked up aspects of traditional martial arts along the way, and wove them into the Muay Khorat style he was raised in. Add in that it was developed as a martial (meaning warefare) Art, and you get a very unique expression of Muay Thai in it. วิสิทธิ์_เลิศฤทธิ์ Ajarn Wisit Lertrit This is not very different than the kinds of inventive cross-sections between martial arts that were happening in the 1920-1950s. East and South East Asia seemed to be experiencing unique cross-pollination (Karate itself only coming to Japan in 1922). There is a story that all traditional martial art fighting systems flowed from Shaolin, in some form or others. But there is another sense in which many of them were in contact with each other in the early 20th century. There is no "pure" form. Arjan Wisit may have even come in contact with Filipino martial arts.

Some of the sessions referenced in the OP: #54 The Late Sirimongkol and Lertrit Master General Tunwakom (81 min) watch it here #36 General Tunwakom - Lertrit Military Muay (46 min) watch it here #40 Gen Hongthonglek - Muay Femeu Tactics & Mindset (70 min) watch it here clip of General Tunwakom:

The Role of the Rich in martial arts. Reading a fascinating book on the real history of Taekwando. If you want to understand the fate of Muay Thai, you have to understand the fates of other martial arts and sports. Super interesting is that Karate was basically a rich kid art, when it was brought over from Okinawa, taught in clubs around Universities by only a couple of Okinawans in the 1920s, and then 30s. A few of these affluent youth were also Koreans (Korea was a colony), so they brought back what they learned in those clubs and basically invented Taekwando over the years. Two huge waves of martial art influence, Japanese Karate and Korean Taekwando (which was basically Korean Karate) fell out of that little university scene of rich kids probably affirming a deep and long for sense of manliness through study. Okinawan Karate (I don't know much about it) was probably born across the people of that island culture, but it was the role of the rich, or at least affluent, that created the bridge for its transmission. This tension between the rich who engage in dreamy, ideological theaters of transformation, and the poor who do all the fighting, and through fights/wars, actually develop the techniques, is in Muay Thai as well. It's interesting and important to not undervalue the transmitive-imaginative role of the rich. You see it all the time. Even in the huge influence of The Fighter's Mind by Sheridan, which essentially was a rich kid seeking to find manliness, but in a way that just resonates across the culture. Ultimately, its the affluent, or some mode of affluence, which will end up transmitting a culture and it's arts to other places in the world. The responsibility placed upon them is subtle and important.

There is so much good in your comment Patrick, but this really stands out as worthy of discussion. There is a strong sense - from afar - that the USMF and related activities have been inspired by the path that TKD has taken to become a world wide sport. Some of this may have simply been that some passionate about Muay Thai are passionate because of their experiences with TKD in America as a youth. I believe I've read some talk about this connection explicitly. There seems to be the hope to create something like what happened with TKD, but without all the huge organizational and political problems. Basically: Let's do what TKD did, without fucking up so royally. And that includes Olympic inclusion. But you are right, Olympic inclusion does not automatically create robust growth, at least along the lines of the data I'm looking at. Here is TKD since 2004, World Wide search data, compared to Muay Thai: You can see the huge spikes during the Olympics (blue), but that the decrease is basically not interrupted. Now, the big question is: What is this decline and what impact did the Olympics have on it? Has corruption and inefficiency at the organizational level just lacked any way of building off the wave of interest during those Olympic peaks? And, what didn't help was that the 2008 Beijing Olympics were marred by the accusation of TKD match fixing, adding to the already problematic image of TKD as "not real fighting". I personally suspect that this "not real fighting" brand is perhaps the largest factor in TKD decline, because combat sports the world over have grown pretty much with branding in the opposite direction. TKD has a limited brand reach that goes against existing trends, it's going to experience value loss. Olympic inclusion kind of complicates that picture, promoting it but also confirming a difficulty. In the US it's a slightly different picture than the one above: Same Olympic bumps, but I don't know if it is concidental, but in 2004 and 2008 Muay Thai seemed to get a bump during Olympics as well, suggesting a possible wave to tap into. I think it would be crazy to think that Olympic inclusion would not create a surge in class sign-ups in Muay Thai. There would be. The huge question would be whether there is enough infrastructure in place to absorb it, and be fueled by that surge. That is what the (perhaps) deeper value of what you are doing, it's putting in place the structures and relationships that they could absorb the influxes that will happen with Olympic inclusion. There is of course another component of Olympic inclusion, which must be thought about under TKD, which is that Olympic inclusion provides a tremendous influx of money into the sport. The stories of corruption at the organizational level are well publicized. You don't get sweeping corruption charges without sweeping money. What it seems is that the influx of attention and money into the sport simply was not transferred to broad scale growth in terms of world attention. But kids all over the United States, for instance, found themselves in TKD classes. All that energy was absorbed, but not translated into productivity. These are the things that concern me when thinking about the TKD model. The truth is that I don't know enough about the Taekwando development history. It feels like a really important thing to understand. Because I care about Muay Thai I think this is something I'll be starting to read up on, I've already got a book downloaded on Kindle!

The quality of your experience may really depend on the camp you go to, and the area of Thailand you go to as well. We have tons of experience up in Chiang Mai, and none in the very popular islands in the south (so no comment on happenings down there). Chiang Mai is awesome because there are just tons and tons of fights, and because of that the process of placing a fighter against someone who won't be a mismatch is well thought out. Simple math, the more opponent options available, the higher chance of a great first, second or third fight experience. Also, some of these gyms are really experienced with beginner level fight introduction. Kru Daeng at Lanna Muay Thai has been shaping westerners towards first fights for probably a decade. Having someone who has guided that process for years is a huge thing. We haven't spent time with Joe at Honthong Gym, but that gym also seems to be one that is very fight friendly. In general though, the best thing about Thailand is that fighting is seen as part of the training process, not some elite thing you do once you are really, really good. Everyone fights. So you are entering a kind of fight culture that can support what you are hoping to do. I totally agree with James about letting your gym know that you really want to fight, so they can put you on that training path from the beginning. But disagree a bit with the "at the end" or "near the end" of your trip strategy. Lots and lots of people do the "at the end" bit, and its often a mistake. I can't tell you how many people we've seen make "at the end" plans and have their fight fall through for a 1,000 reasons, and get nothing. Also, the at-the-end mentality really puts fighting in the wrong context, as a culmination, instead of a part of your overall training and development. Both Sylvie and I strongly recommend that if you want to fight once you should really aim to fight at least twice. That way you don't put too much pressure on yourself to prove yourself, but it also allows your trainers to see you on a path. With a 2-3 month stay that is definitely long enough to fight twice, and maybe 3 times. I would suggest, as long as you feel comfortable, and your trainers are on board, to try and fight your first fight fairly early if you can, so you can soak it all in, make adjustments, come back to training. This is what is special about fighting in Thailand. Because there are so many fight opportunities and the culture is so accommodating to fighting itself (not only elites fight), you can fight in different ways.

What is yours James?! I would love to know the things you favor as a coach and ex-fighter. I can't really have a favorite technique because I don't really train consistently, but damn, there is nothing more beautiful than the general assault of knees. They are like body punches, but sharking upward so they are very hard to perceive. Especially Yodkhunpon's style of inward knee:

For reference to others interested in this question, here are some of the materials cited: #59 Satanmuanglek Numpornthep - Beautiful Clinch Throws (65 min) watch it here #15 Yodkhunpon "The Elbow Hunter" part 2 - Escapes (48 min) watch it here #56 Tanadet Tor. Pran49 - Mastering Long Clinch (63 min) watch it here Bonus Session: The Importance of Building a Frame | 32 min - watch it here #10 The Clinch Techniques of Yodwicha - Session 2 (34 min) watch it here #4 Yodwicha - Clinch and Muay Khao (Knee) Specialist (35 min) - watch it here #21 Rambaa Somdet - Clinch Trips & Throws (34 min) watch it here And the Bank Lock Sylvie's Tips:

This is a very good article, probably the best I've ever come across, detailing the local Muay Thai fight scene on the East Coast of the US, but connecting it up with National movement in the sport, and large scale philosophical values. If interested in any of these things do read: Changing the Way Muay Thai is Done on the East Coast by Pari “Cherry” Aryafar I really enjoyed the folding of description in with interview and leadership perspective, and the photos. Events and orgs are just never covered with this kind of scope and depth, totally refreshing to read. I can't go along with the idea that this is necessarily "real" Muay Thai, in that the USMF/IFMA line of representation necessarily pushes this emphasis, blurring the notable and significant differences amateur ruleset brings to the sport, but I can certainly go along with this is real-er Muay Thai, bringing local fighting and youth fighting closer to the fighting of Thailand. This article, this writing, creates excitement on every level providing an important keyhole into the efforts being done to stimulate and nourish Muay Thai in the United States.

These are some of the most tourist-oriented or at least non-Thai oriented gyms in Thailand (outside of Phuket). There is nothing wrong with that, they give positive experiences to westerners all the time, but what do you mean by "a Thai experience"? How you imagine a Thai experience is really important because it will probably determine how satisfied you feel by your time there.

Anyone in the Islands is pretty much off our radar right now. But it's great to know that there is someone who we can reach out to down the line if needed.

This is a very good point. Sports is definitely fighting for eyeball and joystick space. That's why I think comparison with similarly placed sports is important to do. The best comparison is probably with BJJ, because Muay Thai and BJJ were probably bouyed by the same UFC/MMA wave. In charts above I show that BJJ is trending up, and has passed Muay Thai, which instead is trending down. There are other interesting comparisons, for instance with TKD and Kickboxing. Here is a 2 year trend line for all 4 sports: BJJ, on the rise. You can see how far TKD has fallen in this 15 year timeline of the same, catapulted to very high numbers I believe through Olympic inclusion: Of course if you put Muay Thai on the trend line with Football (soccer) you wouldn't even be able to see it. The important thing for those looking to grow the sport and art of Muay Thai is that if Muay Thai finds itself in a relatively small niche of diminishing attention spans, a stressed environment, that fact that it has been trending downward in that environment for many, many years, and is being surpassed by BJJ which is rising, makes its future questionable.

More YouTube data, the last 5 years Looks like worldwide Muay Thai is holding it's own against BJJ as a search subject on YouTube, in all the charts I've run over the last 4 years this is literally the only positive chart I've seen for Muay Thai (if I can remember them all). But still, Muay Thai is downward trending, the same trend I'm seeing everywhere. Muay Thai vs BJJ Worldwide 5 years (below) On the other hand, in a place like the United States it's completely reversed. BJJ crushes Muay Thai as a YouTube search subject: Muay Thai (blue) vs BJJ (red) USA 5 years (above) There is probably a caveat here, in that people on YouTube likely search for Muay Thai fights, and they very likely don't search for BJJ matches much. So a worldwide edge in search subject worldwide is probably already pretty skewed (making the reverse in the USA even more dramatic) just by subject matter. Google web searches include so many other interest factors such as looking up champions, looking for a local gym, etc. Also note as mentioned, the USA Muay Thai trend is the same trend seen elsewhere, downward sloped. This downward slope is important because we see it everywhere.

Wow, so I just gave it go and did a little query; I was very (!) surprised that it looks like Google updated their trends function, and they DO show YouTube search data (Google owns YouTube). The results, not good, at least in the Worldwide scope. Here is 5 years of YouTube search data for the term "Muay Thai"

There is no way to see YouTube trends, that I know of, but YouTube is the 2nd largest Search Engine in the World. What the Olympics will do is that it will fill classes with youth, around the world. And youth entry is a huge factor in the health and popularity of a sport. Whether this would translate into long term health is another question. Olympic entry was a huge stimulus to TKD for instance, but that growth also had some notorious deleterious effects as well. I believe there are regular Lumpinee fights coming to UFC Fight Pass. Jason Strout (of NYC) I heard is moving to Bangkok to do the commentary. That is pretty cool. It would be nice to have just regular ol' nothing special stadium fighting moving through the media pipeline.

It's beautiful to see the legends of Muay Thai pass through the filter of female western fighters, embraced by that passion. If always felt like female Muay Thai is possibly the thing that might save Muay Thai as we hope it will be saved.

Four years go I started tracking this data which suggests that the popularity of Muay Thai is actually in decline, at least in the share it has in searches conducted on Google. If you browse through the thread above you'll see that the suggestive, but still inconclusive trend is pretty strong in almost all dimensions of search of the subject and its terms. Here's an update on the data now in 2019. Things still looking bleak. As I've argued, we on the Internet with huge passion for the sport don't feel this decline because we are surrounded by like-minded people, thanks to personal choice and algorithms that show us what we like. But, if we really care about the sport and the art, we need to soberly embrace these trends so that we can work realistically to change them. Above, as you can see the subject "Muay Thai" worldwide has declined, and has also declined in relation to BJJ. One could argue that the popularity of both sports has been parasitic to MMA and the UFC. Now BJJ has - at least along this vector - clearly passed Muay Thai as a parasitically boosted sport. Both are highly specialized. Both require an educated audience. Both have "home country" elite performer cultural roots. Below, you can see that Muay Thai as a search term, in Thailand, in Thai language, has continued to decline. This means that worldwide trend issues of popularity cannot be counter-weighted by the health of the sport in the home country. Rather, its relative popularity is in decline both abroad and at home. Long term there are significant issues.

That's a really good question! Most of the photos I see lately are of the statue made in his honor, but yes, totally there is a photo that has been associated with him as well. Doing a quick reverse image search seems to suggest that the association established on old Muay Thai Institute website postings. Here is an example https://www.muaythai-institute.com/history - as you can see, there are lots of old photos placed in proximity to historic descriptions. I doubt anyone knows who the photo is of. An interesting side note about Nai Khanom Tom is that his entire story is based on only 7 lines of verse in an epic poem, embellished as the years have gone on.

Here is a discussion zone for the Rambaa Somdet M16 Muay Thai Library session (published 5/17/2019), which is pretty chalk full of technique. There is so much in it is difficult to total. One of the coolest things in it is the Pistol-Whip Elbow that he teaches within the clinch. A GIF from when he first taught it to Sylvie a few years ago: In any case, this is a space where patrons (and others) can seek clarity or have back and forth on some of the details in Rambaa's fighting approach.

I think early in the fight, yes, the target for a KO is pretty small, but if you keep hitting that area the sensitive "shock" area actually grows over time. A forth round near miss will put someone out if that rib area has been peppered several times, whereas the same shot might have done nothing much (visible) in the first. Much as the leg starts to swell and be more ready to go, I think the body protecting the liver also grows more ready to shock. (As I've written elsewhere, I also think this expanding zone of sensitivity is even more dramatic if there have been re-hydration problems from weight cut, etc.) Edit: In the larger sense, what interests me is how these kinds of attacks require additional investment. You have to insist on them. In some ways all strikes require investment. You don't throw 3 jabs all fight and really have "a jab". You need to jab regularly and repeatedly. But, there are some kinds of attacks that have huge pay offs (fight enders), but usually after a series of only so-so effects. Just to snag a recent ringside example I had from a month or so ago in a local stadium, I was watching a farang fighter face a Thai who was much better than him in the overall sense (but had not fought in 3 years, called "off the couch" so to speak). The farang wasn't bad, he was in better shape though. After several close calls in the first, in the second the westerner went to a very insistent elbow. Over and over and over. 95% were not landing at all. But it just started stressing the Thai, and stress became distress. It was incredible to just see the Thai melt (he's a friend of ours). The insistence made it happen. Throw only 3 of those, the whole fight goes another way. Throw 20, he just overwhelmed the Thai. It feels like this is a kind of secret automatic win strategy that few go for. It amazes me that these big payday attacks are just relatively under-used. And I wonder why? It is fighter psychology? Lack of knowledge or awareness? The only fight ender everyone knows and loves is the head KO.

This round is a good example of pressure elbow fighting from Yodkhunpon, how the misses are all incorporated into a generalized pressure:

There are probably some caveats to this, but I'm really interested in a family of techniques that tend to be neglected because if you throw them in isolation they really don't seem to be all that effective, but if you really throw them repeated, with volume, they are not only effective, against some classes of opponents he can be unstoppable. Low kicks are maybe the most obvious of these. You don't see a lot of low kick fighters in Muay Thai's Thailand mostly because they don't score very highly, and maybe because they feel like a kind of "low hanging fruit" blow? But this is exactly the kind of technique I'm talking about. You don't throw 1 or 2 low kicks. You throw 15. And you'll see that they'll have no effect, no effect, no effect. And then bam, the fight is over. There are lots of examples of this in Muay Thai (despite the technique being relatively shunned), a favorite is our friend JR's fight up in Chiangmai: It's really to say - and I guess this is the meaning behind this post - the results are just so damn harsh, the risk so relatively low, the only reason why I can imagine that low kicks are not a widely used attack is simply that illusion that they aren't effective just when trying them out one at a time. Many fighters test them, play with them and move on, and never take them heavily into their arsenal. As with all these techniques I'm talking about, these are volume commitments. You need to feast heavy on them because their efficacy comes in loads of use. They'll just look like they are doing nothing. And then they bust through. Another one that comes to mind is liver hunting shots. Another fight-ender that will look like it's doing nothing at all, until it suddenly does. In fact the decay time for liver shots and leg kicks feels the same. Nothing, nothing, nothing. Now fight over. When the sweet spot happens, finished. And like leg kicks, there is a cumulative effect. The body starts to swell, sensitivity grows, and the target you have to hit to end it all increases. The number of fighters who liver hunt is pretty damn small in Muay Thai, given that this is a knockout blow (incidentally, I strike I suspect is much more effective against big weight cut opponents). In the end though, it feels like this strike fails in popularity for the same reasons. It just doesn't seem like it is doing something, until it does. A third high-repetition technique that lacks some in popularity are elbows. It's fair to say that elbows are popular in the mind's-eye. They are a flashy, attractive part of Muay Thai, but they have a repetition dimension that is pretty rarely explored. One elbow, two. They either land or they don't. 5 elbows, 10 elbows in a span just break down the guard and eventually get through. They are blocked, blocked, blocked, and then not. There is a feeling of being exposed when you throw elbows, so I can see why they are not often thrown in bunches, but I suspect it is more than that. It's the same sense that they might not be effective, or maybe a lack of trust that after one is blocked, the 3rd or the 5th in high volume won't get through. It will. The fighter who really revolutionized this kind of attack was Yodkhunpon The Elbow Hunter of 100 Stitches. He was the first high profile Thai fighter willing to throw elbow on top of elbow (which stylistically was seen as brutish, femeu fighters preferring the well-timed, painterly elbow). He was willing to throw 20 in a round, knowing that they would eventually get through, or at least seriously distort the opponent and open them up to knees. Yodkhunpon teaching some of his high-repetition philosophy: In the above he links them to knees and other strikes, but really what he wants is a high-metronome elbow attack. One that expects to hit guard, break guard, turtle the opponent. What I find interesting is that each of these strikes are more or less unstoppable when heavily used in high volume, at least against the kinds of opponents 99.999% of anyone reading this would ever face. These are really devastating attacks. There are definite psychological hurdles in becoming a leg, liver or elbow hunter, but he biggest one seems to be belief. Belief that the 5th one, the 20th one, the 40th one will get through (or, the knowledge that all that banked action has distorted your opponent so severely there are many ways to take advantage of it). I'm tempted to add, at least for Muay Thai, uppercuts, to the list. It's not quite the same as the 3 above, but it took is a somewhat effective strike that in high-volume has a "break through" quality. Fighters that commit to uppercuts, especially in Muay Thai where defense against them is less trained, can be very, very potent. I'd love to hear your thoughts on these Unstoppable Strikes, and hear if you have others in mind that have the same kind of "break through" quality, and probably should be much more popular if people simply believed in them more.

We're pretty far removed from gyms in America, but Michael Corley, who is the head of the USMF, not too long ago newly opened Heritage Muay Thai in Houston: https://goo.gl/maps/LU5HHcjBgWeiuezm6 Given that there is a lot of emphasis on youth and growing students in the USMF I would imagine that they'd be great with new students. Maybe something to check out?

This is the hidden future of female Muay Thai. This ethic, this world bond and bubbling up of shared failure, shared technique, shared culture, in the hands of 12-15 year olds. This exists in parkour because all of this was put online, cross-connecting, building a lifestyle. It was made possible because it grew out of male-dominated skate culture, x-culture, and then parkour and now Gtramp culture, but using social media networks a genuine life force is created. Female Muay Thai has much to learn from this.

The new software updates to the forum have a very handy, fast way to get updated on all the activity that has happened on the forum since you were last here. Especially on mobile. You'll see the little newspaper icon at the top (circled red in the screen shot). It will give you a super browse-able list of new comments and posts. As you can see by the green circled item you can filter everything down too. Additionally, in your profile settings you can choose how you want your notifications will occur, and you can set up following particular forum members and other cool stuff. There is also a very robust private messaging system in the forum you can use to cross-communicate. There are so many Easter Eggs in this software I'm provably just scratching the surface. If you run into something cool share it with everyone, if you would.