Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu

I'll say this, if very early female MMA fights were the cause of major spikes in Muay Thai searches in the United States, apparently some of the highest (proportional) spikes ever, people may have underestimated how powerful female MMA is, especially in regard to triggering new interest. At least in that time period. Anecdotal across thin data, but interesting.

It could be that the 2008 summer spike was related to an MMA fight between Kaitlin Young and a certain future actress who did not make weight for that fight. The Google Trends data does not exactly match itself in differing views. It's hard to tell.

The only event I could find for the first spike was the Cro Cop vs Bob Sapp fight in the last week of July of 2007, which corresponds closely to the timing of the spike:

I've tried to point this out to people, but fans of Muay Thai are caught in a kind of bubble and they don't realize that the popularity of the sport may be actually decreasing in the big picture. People in gyms don't realize it because they are surrounded by other enthusiasts. Check this out. This is the popularity of the search term subjects BJJ (blue) vs Muay Thai (red) in the United States: As you can see, both (probably) rode the wave of MMA and the UFC, but while BJJ has maintained its popularity Muay Thai has been in the decline in the US for a while now. This same curve is reflected in many other countries as well. There is a kind of crisis in the potential of Muay Thai in the west, and people just aren't aware of how deep it is. I think all your observations about BJJ are huge and important elements. We really should be thinking about how BJJ and Muay Thai both played out in the aftermath of the wave of MMA.

5-10 Above, ideologically problematic fantasy image put into a meme context to talk about fighting and value. The huge father-who-enjoys of psychoanalysis, here upon a heap of HIS violence, his pliant lady treasure practically a part of the amorphous death accumulation, his sword declaiming a verticality out of the mounting matter, the halo of death cult an atmosphere. The Barbarian, invoking qualities of virility that our current Age longs and lurks for, a harkening back to the thymos of primitive effectiveness in space, how the heart displays itself. And then "What Belts?" calling into question the trite trinkets of contemporary measures of what can only be called manliness, even when women pursue it. I can't help but think that in this image and word-set a vortex of ideas descend to a center that is in itself agonistic. Is THIS what men (and women) fight for? Is THIS really the ideal that hides behind so many layers of shimmering achievement? Is this the cage, the ring, the stage? There is an interesting Thai word - and I am by no means even a student of the language - that comes to me: ittiphon. It is a kind of power ascribed to big nakleng (gangsters), though also to many other types, which essentially means "charm". Charm is no small thing in the ancient world. It was the nearly indescribable, indiscernible power to influence others. In Greek antiquity it is strongly associated with Aphrodite, the goddess of love, and with magic itself. It operated from a distance, and had no explanation. It en-thralled. It spell struck. A great orator would be said to have the power of Influence, his words spellbinding. Anything that charms is not to be trusted because its mechanism is largely unknown and unseen. From what I have read Ittiphon is the magnetism of great men. In the case of nakleng Ittiphon also is accompanied by a second power, Ittiroot. This is the power of perceived magical invulnerability. Cannot be killed. Escapes attack. Lucky. Protected. These are the twin powers of the fighter, the double wings that give him (or her) flight. Even the most grounded, unspectacular fighter is moving to and through these two powers. Charm and invulnerability. However ideologically challenged the image is, this is what it portrays. What is victorious notably localized. It is here, on this heap, with this sword, in this person. What is expansive is that this is a realm of death. Here the thinnest whispers of an idea spread out like a shadow very far from a candle. Faint. The battle field of the fighter is inevitably one of death. Not to-the-death per se. But the trading of strikes that ever work to the diminishment of the opponent. I once read that the ultimate tone of a Muay Thai attack is one that makes the opponent seem to collapse from his (her) own internal flaws. The theater of defeat is a kind of collapse or breakdown from within, and that the victor only serves as the means by which this is exposed. There is a kind of nemesis nature to this, in the old sense...divine justice. The crumbling of the opponent, rather than the outright aggression of the victor, makes this a kind of theater of Death and decay, out of which a mechanism, the victor, stands as a shining light of something alluring, the charm and power of the untouchable. These are repeated theatrical performances of localized divinity, the shine and glimmer of the thing that ascends through matter, is born of matter in conflict. How grace and violence are married through combat, invoking something else. Ultimately, the question of masculinity itself arises, and its role in the cataclysm of this kind of arranged apparition. The question...the problem of masculinity though begins to unweave itself a bit when we recognize that masculinity does not inherently belong to men.

Mixing in private lessons is a really good way to get concentrated instruction. Pi Daeng at Lanna in Chiang Mai I believe charges 500 baht per hour (as do the other instructors).

We asked Teresa Wintermyr who is at AKA in Phuket and she said that there is a girl there now who is 6'0" and about 80 kg so at least there is one woman your size. She doesn't fight much I think due to opportunity, but at least they have experience with her, which could help.

Sylvie has been criticized by Thais for not opening her block up more, so this is a little ironic. But here is a short clip of Sifu Mcginnes, who happens to be a sometimes coach of Sylvie (he's a Karate guy), making fun of westerners for having such a wide block, something he attributes to westerners imagining that shin has to directly meet shin: He and Dekkers take the conversation in a different direction, but it came to mind.

This is just such an interesting point about BJJ. You are much closer to the world of MMA than I'll ever be, but it does seem to me that BJJ passion, and all the detailed "educated fan" knowledge was one of the things that really grounded the commercial expansion of MMA. While it was sold as brutal and ass-kicking, the BJJ fan made the whole thing science-y. You had to understand positions in order to really be a real fan. The attitudes toward BJJ seem to mirror the "real" love of Muay Thai. They are in some respects parallel. But because Thai Muay Thai is thought to be just "striking", it just devolved into kickboxing with a few "cool" techniques.

Well, here is a theory I entertained a while ago. The squat toilet since childhood, and squatting in general as many Thais do/did to just relax and wait around, produces a lot of flexibility, and possibly a lot of technique that grew out of it. I wonder, as the western toilet spreads throughout Thailand if hip flexibility will just generally be reduced, and Thai technique may be changed. This has less to do with hips in, but your mention of the hips made me recall this chain of thought.

That pretty much puts it in a nutshell.

This is an interesting point, and one I have to say that I haven't given enough weight. And from your description it sounds really accurate. The big bombs come more from above. But I remain convinced that there are real, substantive differences in how each culture views the body. Rabbit punches may win in the west, because anything to the head feels or looks damaging, in how the body is mapped. In Thailand it's the opposite. Sylvie has lost several fights to rapid rabbit knees, really quickly thrown knees in a row that might not even touch the body. They are almost symbolic strikes to the gut. Yes, they require some additional balance, and that is on display, but it's more than that. You'll see slow motion replays, for instance in a Channel 7 fight, of knees landing to the ribs. Not really something the west would select out from a round. I think the west sees the head as the center of the Self. It is not only its expressive self (the face), it holds the brain (what science tells us is our core self). Strikes are directed to the head, because the head is essentially us. In Thai body mapping - and this is my little theory - the essential Self is divided up. Yes, the symbolic self (face) is above, but the life force of the self is conceived to be more in the gut. Blows to the gut, or ribs, feel more directed to the opponent's life force. We still have this in our language, things like "gut check", or "gutting it out", or "that takes guts", but these are largely leftovers from a differing world view of the body and the Self. Ancient western cultures considered the spleen or liver as core centers of the life force of a person. I suspect that the big divide on how scoring is done, especially in how body kicks or knees are scored, has to do with this different sense of Self. Now, if we say this is correct, then it makes sense that the Thais would also become more proficient at designing techniques to attack (and protect) that core Self, and a martial art meant to do so. The west is filled with head-hunting because the head is seen as the essential life force of a person culturally. ...I do find your notes really interesting though. How though would you explain the difficulty westerners have in putting their hips in during clinch? Sylvie's been doing this full time for a long time now, and even though she's gotten to a place of very balanced hips in clinch, driving the hips in is still very difficult for her to do, even though she knows that is an essential "safe" place in clinching. There has to be something going on there. Of course it's not just Sylvie, we've seen it over and over again, with trained and untrained westerners alike.

Ass-back is a huge western vs Thai difference that I think goes beyond any particular technique. The west has at least a few fighting styles that favor ass-back (or head forward) positions. The wrestler's hunch, and some styles of western boxing. This is a big difference, and it really plays out heavily in clinch where head-forward results in very easy throws or knees. I also feel like there are extra-circular reasons behind this. Culturally it is somewhat in the body image to pull the groin away in times of attack (for what seem like obvious reasons), but also that there is an element of modesty when in proximity. But hips-forward is a really important part or position in Muay Thai stances and Thai clinch, and there seems like there is a kind of "shyness" involved with the western body image/behavior that makes this much harder to access for western fighters.

And how experienced are you? Asking just so I could look around and see how realistic fights might be for you.

What is your walk around weight, if you don't mind me asking?

Royal Thai Residence is I think 800 a night, and has a nice pool. They are a sponsor of the Thai boys at our gym Petchrungruang, so there is that connection (there is a Muay Thai discount). But we've known several people who have stayed there happily. Our apartment building rents out daily rooms at 600 a night, I think. Sorry this isn't super complete, just what I know. At least a place to start.

More on the "inherently deceptive" Thais: Sumaree Sriuam, 29, who sells chicken noodles, was riding her motorbike near Bali Hai Pier, when she found a wallet on the ground. The wallet contained three THB400,000 checks, THB29,822 cash, and credit cards belonging to a man named Wutthikorn Hanwutthisut. Sumaree decided to bring the lost property to Muang Pattaya Police to help look for the owner. “I just feel sorry for the owner,” Sumaree told Siamchon News. “I don’t want other people’s property, and I know they’d want it back.” source

Not to go too far into this, but there is another layer from my own experience and perceptions, if the thoughts are worthy to put out there. It seems that many of the western men who come to Thailand long term come because they already feel like outcasts, or unacknowledged to the degree that they hoped to be, in their OWN cultures. There is a wide spectrum on this, all kinds of reasons they did not sit well where they were in their own culture, but when they come to Thailand the seduction is the incredible sense of freedom they can feel here, at least in the beginning. They can more or less reinvent themselves (nobody knows them), their $$ go further, they are much richer than they were, and they can at times more easily access women of a beauty standard that they may not have at home (this can also apply to western women who can have their own syndrome of this, but that's another story), and the seeming non-judgmental nature of Thais (Thais do form very strong judgements but they just won't let you know about it) all speaks to a kind of wonderland of self-esteem and self-creating. This applies to older sex-pats, but also to fighters who find themselves doing hyper masculine things, like beating people up for a living...or being beat up. The thing of it is, if you come from your own culture where you already feel you aren't respected like you should be, and then find yourself in a kind of playland, it can be pretty jarring when you run up against the "you are farang" wall, and realize that you aren't embraced the way you thought or hoped. A lot of these more vocal older ex-pats already feel embittered along the line of acceptance. They can often come here to feel special in some way and resent it when it doesn't work out that way. For us we never imagine that we could or would be taken as a "Thai". Why would we? We aren't Thai. Thais, to be very broad about it, seem to be very clannish (family-like extended groups) and sensitive to shifting alliances, and there are so many difficulties to be found within Thai social hierarchies, and within clans and friendships, things we don't see. This isn't "deceptive" in the sinful western sense, but it is...maybe cloistered is the best word. There are circles of trust, within circles of trust, to use a line from Meet the Parents. But a lot of the "Thais are so blah, blah, blah..." talk really seems to come from a combination of putting yourself in poor situations, and unrealistic ideas about how you should be appreciated or embraced.

Maybe someone who has trained at Santai can hop on. My personal sense from afar is that the gym is VERY well liked by loyal, return fighters, but that it is something of a farang camp. And it has a reputation of teaching only a single style of Muay Thai (which some might prefer), changing people's kicks and techniques to suit that style. That isn't something I'd recommend given the richness and variety of technique available in Thailand. This would be perhaps in contrast with what we experienced at Hongthong when Sylvie did a private with Joe. Joe thought hard about how Sylvie fights (in advance, he had seen her fight) and how he could show her things that could really compliment and expand her already existing style. The private was more or less amazing (you can see the full hour of it on Patreon). But that degree of freedom or looseness of approach might not be for everyone. Also, if you are going to divide time between Kem (which is isolated), Hongthong makes more sense because Santai is pretty isolated too, there's a bit of a trek if you want reach Chiang Mai. This being said Hongthong is reportedly ready to move to a brand new location (they are keeping this under wraps) which sounds like it's going to be an enormous upgrade in terms of facilities. I'm not quite sure where that location will be (in/around Chiang Mai). They will probably have moved by the time you arrive, so maybe watch their Facebook page?

Personally, the Kem/Hongthong split strikes me as the perfect contrast. Kem's gym is just spectacularly beautiful. There's a gorgeous valley vista right outside the practice ring, it's like an oasis up on a mountain, and the technique/training seems both rigorous and precise. But it is up in the middle of nowhere. Having been in both gyms they seem somehow complimentary. They do maybe frame a "best of both worlds" kind thing. The good thing about taking this kind of approach is that you get a real perspective for comparison, and maybe learn to appreciate each for what the other doesn't have. And, you may just decide after one cycle that you really like one more than the other. They are so much different worlds there won't be any political issues of changing or moving gyms, I would think, at least the first few times through. Sangtiennoi's gym is different than Kem's. Kem's is really new, and built on beautiful grounds, anchored by the two stars Kem and Yodwicha. Sangtiennoi's gym is kind of an old fashioned kaimuay, attached to the family home, it feels old and worn (in a good way), and it is anchored by the Golden Age legend Santiennoi. It's the kind of gym that feels like it has had westerners in it for a long time, more than a decade, but it remains unchanged by that. It has it's Thai boys, a few star fighters or long term westerners, and just goes on the same clock, year after year. With Kem you have incredible surroundings and really sharp, drill Sargent instruction. Sangtiennoi's gym seems to be on the old, Thai clock of a traditional camp. I'm not sure which gym would be better for women, though I do know female fighters who repeatedly returned to each gym. What it may come down to is that one is run by a 30+ year old former star, and one a 50+ year old former star. Both have really great padmen.

There really is no place in Thailand, in fact all the world, for women who want to fight and fight frequently, like Chiang Mai. If this is priority, it really has to be this. But because you really are looking to move longer term how about shuttling between the two? I don't think not knowing Thai would be a problem at Kems. What might be cool is to spend a month at Kems, then go back over to Hongthong, taking with you all the training habits, and techniques you pick up over there and putting them to use in what may perhaps be a more casual environment. As a less experienced fighter the more "material" you give Joe Hongthong, the more he can work with it. You can train up and treat Kems something like a fight camp, and then come down to Hongthong and try to fight a couple of times, and then back up to Kems (if you liked it)? After a month at Kem's you might be ready to be back in the city a little too. Just an idea. An alternative to Kem's (which seems awesome in its own right) might also be Sangtiennoi's gym, another more hardcore, traditional gym, but with a nice inclusive feel.

The two year mark is really interesting for Sylvie. About two years ago, if not a little more, Sylvie went into a very deep clinch game, Muay Khao style. This meant striking a lot less, fortifying herself against attacks when closing distance, and snuffing strikes, developing ways of entering clinch. But in the last few months she's started to really concentrate on relaxation which has opened up other modes of fighting for her, modes that are only starting to show themselves. This really came to a head a week ago when Karuhat, a legendary fighter who has cornered for her a few times, and who we film with, out of nowhere decided to turn Sylvie completely southpaw, because this would eliminate some fundamental technique flaws she's shown against some problematic opponents. This southpaw switch somehow really connected up with what she's been quietly working on, Nongki energy, more Karuhat like suddenness, and is creating a whole different series of style movements. I'm not sure what is going to come of this, but it is as if Sylvie's fortress style was a long and necessary phase she had to pass through before she could get to more relaxation, and a different part of her character. And only really the excellence of her opponents (certain elite fighters who can stay with Sylvie in clinch), and the increasing size of her opponents, which has pushed her to go beyond her very defined "style". It's pretty exciting times.

Also in his next post he compares himself, or rather declares himself a "migrant"/"immigrant" worker as a fighter: https://muaythaiadventurer.wordpress.com/2017/04/16/untitled-1/ To do this in the country of Thailand which has a serious immigrant worker issue, in particular how immigrant Burmese are treated and thought of is more or less insane in my book, and shows how detached from reality he is. No, fighting as a sponsored fighter in a resort/gym in Phuket, in the sunshine is not IN ANY meaningful WAY like the immigrant workers of Thailand. It's not that he "goes too far", it's that he lives, or at least writes, in a very disconnected way.

May want to use this hip stretch to mime the movement. Also making sure you step "outside" of the pad/pad, at an angle can improve kicks very quickly.

I found this article to be a little out of control. I guess he's had some run-in with less than awesome Thais, and I've never lived the Phuket Muay Thai lifestyle, but the generalizations about "Thais" really border on out-right racism. How would that sound? Blacks as inherently deceptive, Mexicans as inherently deceptive, Jews as inherently deceptive? Come on dude.