Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu

Maybe if an elite Muay Thai fighter - like the current fantasy about Saenchai - joined the UFC and cleaned up? So far I'm not sure that the UFC has seen true Muay Thai, that is, high level Muay Thai born out of the process of Thailand, with strong knowledge of clinch. BJJ would never have taken off if the fighters that introduced it were mid-level BBJ fighters. The UFC has never really seen a Muay Thai version of a "Gracie".

I can't say I really follow this. Have you seen old footage of Boran style fighting? It's not really Muay Thai either. It doesn't matter what shape (or gloves) they are working within. Modern Muay Thai fighters at top stadia would have cleaned up those fighters. Muay Thai, as we know it, is really created out the aesthetics of its rules and scoring, as they express and preserve Thai culture, as the techniques developed over the period of Thailand's modernity (generally 1960-1990s). Take a look at Boran style fighting not long after the first rings were being used 1920s Even by 1946 John Wayne Parr's promotion is basically trying to create "stand up MMA" which is not Muay Thai, at least in my opinion - though I don't blame him, it's a natural progression. [Edit: a quote from JWP: "I'm addicted to it," he continued. "I buy almost every single pay-per-view. As a Muay Thai fighter I got to this stage where I was very jealous of them fighting in a cage. I wanted to prove myself as a warrior, just to show I am just as tough as MMA guys are. I decided to get the cage and host an event. I did a little bit of research on Youtube and I seen a few Muay Thai fights in a cage, but they were wearing traditional gloves. And it looked wrong and really peculiar. If I wanted to get the same respect from the fans as the MMA guys get, there is no way I could have fighters going to the arena fighting with boxing gloves instead of MMA gloves. I thought, 'If I am going to do this, I am going to do this 100 percent.' That's why I decided for the gloves and the cage. Keep it Muay Thai rules exactly the same as MMA except for when it goes to the ground, you stop and stand back up again. Every single UFC fight that they call 'Fight of the year,' is the ones where they stand the whole time. I'm giving the fans exactly what they want to see."] To me the kard cheuk fights are a joke/gimmick. They are put on, as form of spectacle in an attempt to rile up Thai nationalism, usually in a show like Thai Fight. There is a strong and lasting narrative told in Thai history that it was Muay Thai that kept Thailand free from western (and neighborly) control. Kard Cheuk is an evocation of that narrative. Thai Fight usually isn't really Muay Thai...it's a Muay Thai show, featuring famous fighters of Thailand, often against overwhelmed western fighters. At the gym the Thais joke about how you have to fight in a totally different, artificial way for Thai Fight, featuring ridiculous moves, etc. Of course there is no "official" Muay Thai. But Muay Thai to me is the process and promotion of the sport which grows the potency and depth of the art. Thai Fight and Max Muay Thai are spectacle shows. MAX Muay Thai for instance has a rule/advice sheet passed out to its fighters that tells them to fight in a way that is opposite to Bangkok stadium fighting, for the sake of aggression.

I'd say I pretty much agree with your breakdown, although the fighting boom in Japan was a bit ancillary. It created a hardcore niche fan base in the West, but the UFC really exploded because - in my opinion - it gave expressing to (largely white) male (middle and lower class) frustration. The sliding social power of the UFC demographic found potency in what the UFC was selling, something that felt like REAL fighting. Part of this was taking the wave against the orientalized martial arts fads of the 1970s and 1980s, with so many McDojos, and martial arts developed outside of actual fighting. Muay Thai partook in some of this because it is developed through 1,000s and 1,000s of fights for decades, it felt like "real" fighting (as opposed to so many other martial arts, which didn't). But, those that love Muay Thai also love the culture of Muay Thai, which falls back into the orientalization of the art (it's Kung Fu-ism). This is the fundamental contradiction of Muay Thai in the west, and the thing that prevents it from becoming commercially viable. 1. It has this Kung-Fu aspect, full of "cool" moves and techniques, and a whole Boran history (it's exotic). 2. It has this real fighting aspect, born of actual fights. Those that love it's real fighting aspect just want to steal or imitate its moves. You get a very watered down version of "Muay Thai" in the UFC (and elsewhere) which is really much more just kickboxing. All the supposedly exotic stuff just gets thrown away. So you get silly reverse elbows over and over, out of context, and off-balance kung-fu-like moves, and the rest of it is all tossed away. The Muay Thai moves will just be absorbed by kickboxing and MMA, there's no need for the rest. For those that love the exotic dimensions of Muay Thai, this runs hard against the very core of what makes the UFC and MMA in general popular. Doing the Ram Muay, calling your instructor Kru or Arjan, the UFC fans looking for KOs don't care about these things, they are antithetical to "ass kicking". The people who love the exotic aspects are seriously marginalized. Any promotion is forced to draw on this very small group of people because they are most passionate about the art/sport. But any promotion always has to face the fact that it can't answer the question: Why not just do kickboxing with cool Muay Thai moves throw in? There is no answer to that. The truth is that real Muay Thai is found neither in its exotic fantasy component, or it's "cool moves" stand up MMA component. It's found in the 1,000s fights across the country of Thailand. It doesn't really exist outside of Thailand, in my opinion. So any western promotion is really forced with presenting some sort of imitation of it, to a largely inexperienced audience. It has to piece together its fanbase from very diverse quarters.

I'd say I pretty much agree with your breakdown, although the fighting boom in Japan was a bit ancillary. It created a hardcore niche fan base in the West, but the UFC really exploded because - in my opinion - it gave expressing to (largely white) male (middle and lower class) frustration. The sliding social power of the UFC demographic found potency in what the UFC was selling, something that felt like REAL fighting. Part of this was taking the wave against the orientalized martial arts fads of the 1970s and 1980s, with so many McDojos, and martial arts developed outside of actual fighting. Muay Thai partook in some of this because it is developed through 1,000s and 1,000s of fights for decades, it felt like "real" fighting (as opposed to so many other martial arts, which didn't). But, those that love Muay Thai also love the culture of Muay Thai, which falls back into the orientalization of the art (it's Kung Fu-ism). This is the fundamental contradiction of Muay Thai in the west, and the thing that prevents it from becoming commercially viable. 1. It has this Kung-Fu aspect, full of "cool" moves and techniques, and a whole Boran history (it's exotic). 2. It has this real fighting aspect, born of actual fights. Those that love it's real fighting aspect just want to steal or imitate its moves. You get a very watered down version of "Muay Thai" in the UFC (and elsewhere) which is really much more just kickboxing. All the supposedly exotic stuff just gets thrown away. So you get silly reverse elbows over and over, out of context, and off-balance kung-fu-like moves, and the rest of it is all tossed away. The Muay Thai moves will just be absorbed by kickboxing and MMA, there's no need for the rest. For those that love the exotic dimensions of Muay Thai, this runs hard against the very core of what makes the UFC and MMA in general popular. These people are seriously marginalized. Any promotion is forced to draw on this very small group of people because they are most passionate about the art/sport. But any promotion always has to face the fact that it can't answer the question: Why not just do kickboxing with cool Muay Thai moves throw in? There is no answer to that. The truth is that real Muay Thai is found neither in its exptic fantasy component, or it's "cool moves" stand up MMA component. It's found in the 1,000s fights across the country of Thailand. It doesn't really exist outside of Thailand, in my opinion. So any western promotion is really forced with presenting some sort of imitation of it, to a largely inexperienced audience. It has to piece together its fanbase from very diverse quarters.

If Lion Fight would fall I think it would be a pretty strong sign that Muay Thai is not commercially viable. They've been doing this for nearly a decade, have developed very strong business relationships and ties, have experimented with venues, sanctioning bodies, built up its own stars (Tiffany van Soest, Kevin Ross) and even gotten Thais fighting on the show. I'm not saying that it proves its not viable, but a new promotion would have to think that Lion Fight was doing something fundamentally wrong, something they could do quite a bit better, or they would just be throwing money away. I'm not sure what that wrong thing would be. Bottom line is that the commercial viability of these promotions are parasitic on the UFC, that's how one is able to draw outside of an extremely niche, but very small fan base. And the truth is that K-1 or kickboxing is just closer to the UFC in aesthetic than Muay Thai is. John Wayne Parr tried to cheat the system a little by putting Muay Thai on in a cage with MMA gloves, and hey, maybe there is a way forward there. But that is NOT Muay Thai really. You can see the UFC pressure being exhibited even in Thailand, with televised shows like MAX Muay Thai strongly distorting the rules/scoring, for a more spectacle-like, aggression-heavy show. If this is happening even in Thailand (because of the aging of the Muay Thai demographic, and the class-ism involved) it's sure to be the case all over the world. Lion Fight (or any promotion) is caught between the two directions of catering to a devoted "pure" Muay Thai that will sell local tickets to gyms, and becoming more and more like the UFC...which Muay Thai fundamentally is not. I don't think there is market demand here, in an easy way.

"I would like to address the fans and combat sports community of the concerns I recently raised regarding fighter-promter relations. I hope the issue highlighted the unfortunate scenario we face when promoters exploit fighters, which negatively impact on our lives. I can confirm receipt of the outstanding payment from Lion Fight Promotions since the social media post. I do not intend to defame Lion Fight Promotions - they are coined "the best stand up promotion in America'' for a reason. Their growth and development for American Muay Thai speaks for itself. However, after seeking legal advice and numerous unreturned emails from Lion Fight demanding payment, I was left feeling heartbroken. My only option was to take matters into my own hands. I hope this provided a platform for ALL fighters who put their hearts and souls into their careers, their bodies on the line yet still get the short end of the stick. We knowingly fight for small pay checks, but to not receive payment is just wrong. It’s simple – you do a job and get paid for it. Hopefully there is light at the end of the tunnel for fighters in regards to promoters not paying within reasonable timescales. I would like to thank the fans and combat sports community for the overwhelming support and I hope you all continue to support Muay Thai in America." I'm not sure how you avoid defaming a promotion by explicitly stating one sentence before that they exploit fighters. "Exploit" is a strong word, pretty much a word that is meant to defame. An exploitative promotion is one that nobody really wants to be a part of. Aside from that non-sequitur though I'm a little divided on this. I do appreciate that she took things into her own hands. Fighters are largely locked into a Gym-Promoter power structure. Their images (and futures) are traditionally decided by their gyms, and by promotions. Social Media allows direct connections with fans, and creates a more immediate power. And Tiffany used that, and I applaud that (though she does not seem very active on social media since her move). I have no doubt that she had very little recourse other than this. But...Muay Thai's continued existence in North America, as a commercially viable product, is seriously threatened, even before this happened. If Lion Fight goes, it could very well mean that North American full rules Muay Thai itself will end, aside from very small local shows. I think for people who LOVE Muay Thai, we don't see how incredibly niche it is in North America...that it is far more fragile than we imagine.

Fani Peloumpi vs Zaza Sor. Aree - One Round Knockout Tournament, March 21 2016 SPOILER: I thought this fight was an amazing performance by Fani. Zaza tried to draw her into her retreat and score game and Fani perfectly played it with control of distance. She also won all the clinch positions against Zaza who has a reputation in clinch, and even in the end, after the 8 count, Fani refused to dance off and stayed aggressive when she didn't have to, risking a cut which could have changed the fight. The full tournament show: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zto1DnJXXvg time stamps by Kristin: Fani Peloumpi vs Marcela Soto 50:16, Zaza Sor. Aree vs Monika 56:54, Fani vs Zaza 1:41:45

wow. They've built in kick blocking padding into the wrists. Interesting. I doubt this would become standard.

It's hard to compare shows I think. We can't know the finances and relationships at stake. Hey, I'd be pissed if Sylvie wasn't paid in a timely fashion, but I presume that Lion Fight has made decisions to pay certain expenses, and delay others. How do we criticize these harshly? We don't really have very much information. Are people claiming incompetence? Fraud? Are there not stories of the UFC itself delaying fighter pay for long periods at times? What I don't really understand is the level of some of the online vehemence that was behind the backlash on this? The only reason anyone knows Tiffany's name as a star, in the first place, is probably because of Lion Fight itself...no? The anger towards Lion Fight (and maybe many people have reason to be angry, from personal experience), feels self-consuming. It's the community hating and devaluing the last significant Muay Thai show in the United States. If Lion Fight goes there is really nothing much else. Bellator is not Muay Thai. Glory is not Muay Thai. We should be slow to see Lion Fight fall. That being said, there probably is more to this story than we know. When Tiffany (very quietly...I was surprised how silently she made the move) decided to move to Bali did Lion Fight feel betrayed, or that they were losing a star they helped create? Did they delay her pay on purpose? If so, maybe not smart. Bottom line though, it doesn't feel good that Lion Fight looks like it is struggling to stay afloat - that reversed decision was a fiasco. I believe Marq Piocos said that she's rumored to be going to Bellator now.

Sorry to hear that Flora. Sylvie trained (and fought) through a hand fracture for about 3 months, earlier in this year. She just turned all right crosses into elbows. It's something you can do in shadow, on the bag and in pads. I'm guessing that your finger is in a splint, but the hand should be relaxed when elbowing. Maybe check out some of the elbow motion in Sylvie's Yodkhunpon video he has an especially light touch in elbows. Also, working on your long guard (using your forearm to shield instead of a gloved hand), in shadow, might be an option. You can work on slow motion sparring with someone you trust.

Was this a forcing move? I never saw an actual link to an auction. It just may be that the economics behind profession Muay Thai promotion in the US just are not there. Lion Fight has been trying to make Muay Thai work for a long time. I can't imagine they are stuffing their pockets at this point, and letting all their relationships die off. There literally must be no money.

Not to go too far off topic, but I would say definitely the case. There are many, many Lumpinee titles and very few Olympic golds. Winning that gold made him a superstar and from what I've heard financially set for life. There is also something very alluring to Thais about western boxing victories. It proves Thai greatness on the international stage. Thai western boxing champions are very well regarded. I've heard that even a bronze medal for boxing in the Olympics changed a fighter's life. Back to female Thai Muay Thai fighters, there is no achievement out there that really changes your future. There is just long term presence in the media and then not. It could be that some of the things that the IFMA is reaching for can change some of that - with international prestige at stake - I'm not sure though.

The theory seems way too speculative for me, but I do believe that fighters are acting out very deep patterns in their body, and are often are attempting to transform or transcend them.

I'd agree with what a lot of people are saying about confidence, and ask if the experiences you had previously were ones that built your confidence. It sounds a little like it may have been a mixed experience? A lot of times it isn't so much the gym you are at, it's the trainer you have. So maybe the gyms have been good, but a different trainer might make them better? You can sometimes get focus from a different trainer by taking privates with them. Because you are asking about alternatives, a few ideas. 4 weeks is a good amount of time, enough to make a significant change, and if you focused on something like clinch (which isn't easy to find) you could radically change your ability to win against opponents who may not be so focused, unless you are already a clinch fighter. Winning in tie-ups can make big differences. Also, a gym to consider might be Sitmonchai gym (not a clinch gym), in that it is very fight oriented, has a good track record when dealing with female fighters, and has one of the best low-kick instructors in the world in Kru Dam. It's about 2 hours outside of Bangkok in a pretty quiet part of Thailand, and might really give you that "fight camp" experience you may be seeking. Also of course, Sylvie has an open invitation to female fighters to come and train with her. Women are really taking her up on it. One woman, Sandra, came to prepare for the Swedish championships and the IFMAs, and really experienced growth in a short amount of time. She became the 48 kg champion last week against much more experienced opponents, and is coming back in the Summer. The gym is not for everyone, you need to be very self-motivated, but you would basically get to train along with Sylvie who is constantly training for fights, and you would definitely learn some clinch. It's also a pretty inexpensive gym, which may help in matters.

So hard to read what really is the case, but one has to admit that her team has become very media savvy. Apparently her lawyers have just recently filed for patents around the phrase "Fuck Them All" 5 in particular to the abbreviation FTA. Rousey is no longer just a person fighting, if she ever was only that. She's the center of a moving media event, and the commerce that goes along with it. When you patent phrases you are going to be using in the future, that's some serious premeditation.

I'm not completely sure it is specifically marriage in Thailand. Though most definitely there is a widespread ethic that women should not fight. You even see it among potential female western fighters who come and get a Thai fighter boyfriend. Anecdotally, we've seen potential or current fighters become less active as fighters, and some be strongly steered away from fighting, when a Thai ex-fighter boyfriend relationship starts. It does not seem to be the case that the men, because they are fighters, see fighting as something the female should do. In fact, quite the opposite. Because they are or have been fighters their female counterparts should not fight. Again, anecdotally. To understand this though in almost all circumstances Muay Thai in Thailand is work. It's not glamorous, by and large, and most people think about females fighting: Why would you do that? And Sylvie's been asked many times why I would allow or want her to fight. It just makes little sense, even if you are talented in it. It is very rare for a female fighter to make any real money, and most women want to stop fighting before 20. They've been doing it, usually, since they were a kid, and if they didn't have to fight - due to circumstances - they wouldn't. There is almost none of the "martial arts for the beauty" or "personal glory" involved in the decision to be a fighter. It's just work. And it is work that isn't sustainable, not to mention work that can scar you. You can add to that that female Thai fighters really have no career path once they start becoming very good. Sylvie wrote about this in her Judging Youth article. When Thai boys start really excelling at around the age of 15 and are climbing top talent in the Bangkok stadia, Thai girls start running out of top opponents. Not only is the pool much smaller, but nobody wants to fight them because in order to fight you have to lay significant money down. There is no sense of "Hey, let's fight and see who the best for the good and glory of the sport". It's about money. There will be some high profile matchups, but there simply is no scene, no promotional structure, along which a very good 15 year old female fighter will grow into a great one. There are rare exceptions like with Sawsing and Chommanee, women who become national stars, but even they are probably not earning a significant living, very infrequently fight, and probably would prefer to just retire. I never get the feeling that any Thai female fighter around 20 wants to fight anymore, at least in the sense that is expressed in the west. Sawsing is an interesting example of course, because she recently got married (to a fighter) and had a baby, and is having a comeback fight. This is a strong exception and it's interesting to watch. There are other examples of female fighters coming back to Muay Thai at or around after college. Zaza has been having a very slow comeback (she fought in Japan when young) - she is the girlfriend of one of the Pinto brothers - but does not really seem to want to fight. We've heard she asks such a high fee it is very hard to book her. I don't know if she has fought in many months after a few initial victories, and when she did fight she seemed to be facing girls she knew she could win against. It really appeared, at least to me, as if she was coming back to Muay Thai to maybe further a larger singing or acting career, which is pretty interesting, because to some degree being a top female fighter has become something of a marketable media image. This feels new. So, given all this context I would imagine that if you add marriage into the mix it would definitely create a possible: Now it is time to move onto the next stage of your life. There is a feeling that female fighting is for when you are young (early and mid teens), but then because there is no future, you move on. Phetjee Jaa says that she wants to join the military, when we asked her. There doesn't seem to be a vision of future world greatness. As a sidenote about culture, Tom and Dee-ism (a form of Thai lesbian relationship) is pretty common among female Thai fighters (at least it seems to be from what we've seen). It also is strongest in the demographic of youth. But unlike a more western concept of firm sexual identity, this too is often treated as a stage or a fad by families, who then at a certain point expect their daughters to stop experimenting, get married, and get on with their life. This can be very painful for women more committed to the life choice, as Dees leave and start a straight life, because its expected. I'm not drawing a complete connection here, but only to say that there is foundation for a "Now it is time to grow up" judgment from society directed towards women who have lived a life in their teens. This could tie into a similar "time to grow up" attitude towards fighting.

I have to say that it got a little whiplash, unexpectedly going from suicide to babies. I was totally sympathetic with her over-wrought feeling, but when she bounced to having to stay alive for her man's babies, it kinda made me reconsider her as a whole. I think she's been incredibly brave and strong bearing the weight of UFC popularity as a woman - so much pressure, but I don't know...this seemed a little unstable sounding. How terrible to have your every thought scrutinized though. What did you think Emma?

We might be seeing a Chommanee fight then! Or Teresa. Good to have a high caliber female name moving to Thailand.

Really good post and thread. Sylvie interviewed a big Bangkok promoter who is involved in a plan to build an International Kard Chuk stadium, I believe in Mae Sai (?, don't remember), in order to promote Thai vs border country fighting. He has a big vision, but this is something that might mean a lot for Khmer fighting. An interesting aspect of this is that there seems to be something of an ideological tension within Thailand about the history or source of Muay Thai techniques. There seems to be a strong effort to portray Muay Thai has having a "royal" lineage, and align Muay Thai with nationalist efforts, protecting the nation, etc., distancing itself from techniques found either in the North or in Isaan (with its Khmer origins). There seem to be noble vs populist narratives in struggle, making the loss of Khmer fighting knowledge a hole in history. So sad to think of the loss of Khmer teachers during the brutality of the Khmer Rouge (albeit a tragedy of such an enormous proportion, hard to single that out). This absence though draws out what is so absolutely unique about Thailand, perhaps in the world. The thing that makes Thailand like no other place, at least in this point in history, is the sheer number of fights, both in individual careers but also just nationally. It has a history of knowledge and continuity that is incredibly fight-tested, across tens of thousands of persons. Yes, great Thai fighters of the past are often neglected by their own, we know one fighter who was the best 118 lb fighter in the land who now just manages a bar, and there are countless stories like this; and yes, formerly esteemed gyms are now becoming more like adventure tourist centers, but still all this fighting is done in the context of a huge bed knowledge and memory. In a complete side note, the loss of masters makes me think of this very good documentary about the diaspora and loss of Kung Fu masters, much recommended: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--DlclqbmeM

I can't say this universally, to all of Thailand, but I found that Thai culture would be comfortable to an introvert. I'm an introvert. I like being left alone and just watching things. I find that at least in the broad sense Thais will let you be, and let you go about who you are. Of course there are subtleties, and as you stay here long term you see things with more detail, but at the surface there is a lot of space given. You may find that you really like it.

There are some "not many people" options. I understand that introversion can be strong. I'm not sure if you mean not many westerners (people who speak English and may try to talk with you), or not many people at all, Thais included? One option I can think of is training at Sylvie's gym, Petchrungruang, here in Pattaya, but only in the mornings. In the mornings there are very few people, in fact sometimes it is only Pi Nu (the head instructor/gym owner) and Sylvie. Usually though, not more than 4 or 5 people total. These are very quiet times. In the afternoon it's much busier, with Thais and westerners mixed. But it's not a big gym, it's a family style gym. Once you get the mornings down, maybe you would be more open to the afternoons - or you could strategically come earlier or later in the afternoons, when training hasn't started up much, or is winding down. Another one that is pretty small is Sor. Klinmee gym in Pattaya, again, another family style gym. Maybe 15 people in the space in the afternoons, from what we saw (Sylvie trains there sometimes for clinch). Not sure what the mornings are like, they are probably slow. Another thing that you could do is to go to a non-expensive gym, but use the extra money to invest in private sessions with an instructor. Usually these are done between the mornings and afternoons. If so, you might have the gym to yourselves, or not many people around.

Really, just because you train in Thailand doesn't really mean you train well in clinch at all, especially as a female, and certainly not advanced clinch. Ashley's clinch looked fairly rudimentary - physically strong, but basic - to me. Sylvie had a very hard time finding clinch instruction or training her first two and a half years here, even though she pushed for it. It takes a long time to develop clinch. After Tiffany lost to Caley in the clinch, and Caley is one of the best female clinch fighters in the world, principally because she's trained it for years, it looked like she had paid attention to this weakness in the Alldis fight. But now I'm not so sure. In any case, it's something that surprised me in the fight.

I was surprised that Tiffany looked like she struggled in the clinch, after looking like she had improved in that area vs Alldis. Ashely's clinch really wasn't all that sophisticated, mostly just a basic plumb grab and turn, but almost every time they locked up she had the advantage. I was also impressed with Ashley overall, not only her skill set, but also her size. She's fought much smaller than this, but it didn't really look like the size mismatch I anticipated. Eventually Tiffany just wore her down with all the multiple strikes, but for a time there (I think in the 3rd round?) I felt there was an opening for her to win the fight. It wasn't what I expected.

I would seriously doubt PJJ crushing a girl with 6 or 7 kg on her. I suspect she'll just point fight her, and turn her a few times in the clinch. But it sounds like, if you had to guess, Saya will not fight PJJ. I'm fairly sure PJJ's family wants to fight her, but I guess they don't really have much to say about the matter. In the end, for them it will be money that will talk. PJJ fights where the money is.

If so, it would likely be an amateur fighter fighting her first pro fight There just are almost zero 100 lb fighters in the US. Amy Davis, I don't know if you remember her, she fought in Japan, at 105 lbs couldn't find someone to fight in North America for years, and had to eventually move to MMA. It was very sad.