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I started late, 25 yrs old. I have recently found Sylvie's videos interviewing Angie and while that is a huge inspiration for me as someone now a few months into training, I have found the real hook that kept me coming back to class religiously is the impact of Muay Thai on my relationship to my body. I pass fairly well when I am conforming to western femininity but I actually gravitate towards tom/butch expression (undercut, little makeup, "men's" cloths) despite being MTF. For my whole life, and especially the last few years during transition I have had basically hypervigilance/hyper fixation surrounding my body and how its being perceived/gendered and how I exist in space. Surrendering to the grind/burn of Muay Thai has been one of the biggest non-medical transition tool for reframing my relationship to my body from one centered on the perceptions of others, to one centered around learning how to assert myself in space and exercise balance and autonomy over my body. I have a lifetime of sharpening ahead of me but I have found a great deal of relief and reward in the distance I have come so far. As I become more at home in my body I am able to understand how my natural tendencies match up to the various subdisciplines/systems of Muay Thai and serves as a salient anchor for these parts of myself I want to develop in my regular life, and for getting past traumas. Making this post to share this experience, as after the fact I thought it was very ironic that this thing that is so good for specifically trans mental health (in my opinion) is socially and sometimes legally off limits to us. How does my experience compare to yours? Do you know any trans fighters that have had similar or different experiences?

Hey everyone reading this, as the MTL and this forum was the initial factor of me going to train at Bangkok i want to share my experience of training with Sagat for a week and what i learned from it. First of all Sagat is a really nice person overall, He was willing to pick me up with his car and bring me to the training and also take me back afterwards every single day. He also shared several lunches with me and invited me more or less to a fight event at lumpinee stadium to show me more of muay thai. You also get a very nice feedback during training with him, depending on your technique the responds vary from critique, to good, to perfect, to uwee and of course "how feel" with a bright smile. What i learned: 1. Go straight: Sagat teaches of what i would call a traditional/old school way of everything. Most of the basic strikes we went through were supposed to travel the minimal distance. For example the kick is supposed to angle at about 45 degree and go straight up like a soccer/football kick, returning the foot by going directly back. Thus the hip snaps more, so you dont fully close the hip(if that makes sense). Also you dont turn in the shin on the last second like in "the golden kick", he corrected this many times as i was very confused with this. 2. Acceleration at the end of strikes: With punches and elbows there was big emphasise on accelerating "after" the hip and body rotation or even more so at the end of the upper body rotation. This way you can go through the target more easily (like when somebody tells you to hit behind the bag). 3. Straight punches: Sagat teaches to throw without turning the fist. Instead you lift the elbow at the end of the arm movement, so that your elbow (not the upper arm) ist positioned behind your fist, this way you get the "snap" in the punch or at least i feel this way. You also come in on a little angle with the fist, instead of coming pinpoint straight. Thinking about it i believe all of his punches work with the "elbow behind the fist". This way the wrist, the elbow joint and the fist feel more supported and the forearm comes as a whole. 4. Stepping in on strike and afterwards step out: I was supposed to step on every punch with the weight mostly on the front leg. I tried on different ocassions to switch my weight back and forth (like in the chatchai sasakul sessions) but i was corrected about it, because i couldnt get back fast enough this way. He also tried to teach me to breath in deeply before stepping in, so that you have enough energy to throw your strikes. I hope somebody finds this in any form useful.

I will be sharing your words with Angie, as I'm sure they mean as much to her as they do to me. For me, personally, what drew me to Muay Thai was the performance of masculinity, with these simultaneous soft and fluid expressions. I've written on my blog about how masculinity does not belong to men; men "wear" it just as much as women can, it's not intrinsic or "natural" or inherent. Bev Francis, one of the most famous female Body Builders in the 70s and 80s pushed past the "acceptable" limit of muscles that "feminine" bodies into muscles that were heavily criticized as being "too much" for a woman. But Bev loved muscles and being strong for the exact same reasons males with those bodies love them: because it feels good. A pleasure not "belonging" to a gender, even if socially it is flagged or coded to the binary. As a cis woman, this is how I've navigated the very complex experiences of Muay. The parts that are masculine feel good for the same reasons they feel good to men, but I do get offended when folks comment that I "look like a man," or am "strong like a man." As a Cis woman, I have a more relaxed privilege to those offenses because I don't worry about "passing," but I do, at times, fret that I can never be unaware of being NOT A MAN in a man's arena. But vacillating in the in-between is where the real beauty is and, if Muay Thai allows you to explore and express your gender in a more nuanced way, then that's a wonder I have greatly appreciated as well. If you can find Superbank's stunningly beautiful Ram Muay, wherein he is pouring out feminine grace and at the exact same moment filling himself with masculine prowess...it's that. That's the perfect example.

That might be it. If the farang name is Rafael and is from NY that would be him. He does go to Hongthong sometimes and knows the two brothers I was talking about. The other gym I was talking about was Lamnammoon Muay Thai, but it was not him who was there, though he did come once and elbows me in the face while holding pads (I mean by that just slightly touched to make me realize my guard was down, fucking scary but effective). I actually had the privilege to be elbowed by both him and Yodkhunpon which I am kind of happy about ahahah. The trainer taking care of the gym was Nuengtrakan Por Muangubon cause Lamnammoon was mostly in Singapour I think. Anyways, Joe from Hongthong had arranged for me to train there, he told me a bit about growing there and stuff. I think Hongthong is like a neighborhood in Ubon or something like this. I've been wanting to write a review of all the gyms I've trained at in my trips, but I have not yet. Keep doing your great work Kevin. You and Sylvie have had such an impact. I hope one day soon, Thailand offers you honorary citizenship. You guys deserve this.

escriures - etchings, strokes, inscriptions, grooves & sweeps, impressions, trace, arcings, adumbration, articulation. Above is a photo of a fighter from Chatchai's shadowboxing with his hands on the hip bones, the most extensive writing strokes taken out. The body itself becomes a gesture of gestures, the feet and torso moves toward the visual language, developing the sense of the roots of writing.

I was going to thailaind to train for the first time and was unsure where to go. With so much choice I decided to post a thread asking where would be best to go. After a recommendation by Kevin on this forum I decided to just give it a go and visit this gym in Chaing Mai. I messaged the gym and they were really helpful with recommendations for accomodation. Location: The gym is located a few minutes by taxi from Chaing Mai Airport. There is accomodation approximately 100 metres from the gym that is a reasonable price. I stayed in a hotel a bit further away that was right next to the mall. The mall is about a 15 minute walk from the gym and it pretty big. In terms of training it is really easy to get to your accomodation and the gym. The main city is about a 10 minute taxi ride away. Its pretty easy to get around and far less traffic than Bangkok. So if you wanted to live in the city centre and commute to the gym it's easily possible. In terms of things to do in the city there is loads of places to eat and markets seemingly everywhere. Other than that you can look things up in a guidebook for things to do or something. Training: Classes are 7am and 3pm with optional training before this. The classes consist of skipping, pad work, bag work, sparring/clinching. The class is well structured and you are always given something to do. Thailand will often show techniques throughout the session and this knowledge is absolute gold. I also did a few private sessions and got lots of corrections to various techniques but he didn't teach too much so I could retain it. He is an extremely good teacher and would highly recommend private lessons with him. I felt a huge improvement very quickly. It's hard to explain how much my technique improved within a couple of weeks but he managed to improve the fundamentals of pretty much everything I was doing. Thailand is a highly gifted coach and he really cares about everyone in the gym getting better and enjoying training. I cannot recommend this gym highly enough. The vibe at the gym: Everyone here is really friendly. The Thai guys who live at the gym are quite young but this makes no difference, they are technically superb and a lot can be learnt sparring them. The foreign visitors who were also there were all really cool and we all made friends right away. There is absolutely no ego here which was really nice to be a part of. Summary: A highly technical gym conveniently located with a genuinely caring and motivated head coach. Seriously, Thailand is a technical genius. The people at the gym (in my experience) were all friendly which really helps if you're visiting to mainly train as you will be at the gym a lot. There seems to be plenty of fighting opportunities if you want them. I didn't explore this and mainly visited to learn as much as I could. Thanks Kevin for being so active on this forum and making this recommendation.

Ive been watching some of Chamuakpet's fights as usual, and I noticed something that mightve been obvious to everyone else. He switches stance depending on his opponents stance. (I watched his fights with, Oley, Pepsi, and Chaidet in a trilogy gomma have to watch some others paying attention to this to see if im right or making an assumption) Im curious about out of the many reasons it could be for what mix or single reason he did this. My conclusions have been the rear knee timing and open side point. Though I thought it might be possible he has a similar mental process as Gen Hongthonglek (except opposite) where he prefers to fight other orthodox fighters because of his mental mapping of the body. And I thought that "hey maybe Chamuakpet prefers the mapping of opposite stances and he adjusts to stwitching accordingly" I believe his ability to do this was one of MANY things that made him an incredible fighter. Just like Karuhats ability to switch was important in his style too. Ive noticed in my switch to southpaw the last 3 months that I actually really like the mapping of opposite stances. PS: been a supporter for about 2 years now since ive started Muay Thai thank you for everything Kevin, Sylvie, and the Legends

My lad 12 spent a week with Thailand either in the group lesson but more often in PT every morning . We found him to be a great trainer with a really good gym vibe from the local and foreign fighters . There were at least 4 Spanish 2 boys and 2 girls all of who fought and won , one in Bangkok and the other 3 in chiang Mai. It was a great night out watching them at the local stadium. Thailand himself was superb with my son and they got on really well, he made noticeable improvements in the short time we were there As a coach he is a stickler for precision , he wants it right and is prepared to go over and over til you get it right . He was kind and funny and obviously cares about his students, his wife and kids are part of the scene and were lovely . He’s held in high regard for good reason , he’s a brilliant coach and I won’t hesitate to go back hopefully next year with my lad

Phornthip Khamthongphanaw is a 19-year-old fighter who trains at the Khlong Toei Youth Center in Bangkok. UNDP Thailand did a video on her recently, which you can watch here. There's also a Vice article by the same journalist on her story: https://www.vice.com/en/article/n7en4d/women-muay-thai-rising-star-thailand

A beautiful thread you have here. I am late to the party but Sylvie pointed me to it today. If I would ever care to analyze what MT does to me past the superficial "it is fun", this is what I would write, maybe not as eloquent though. But as you made me self-reflect today, I realized how deep MT has rooted itself inside me and how it then manifested on the outside. I am definitely in a better shape now than ever, both mentally and physically. People from outside can disagree when they see my sometimes bruised body and my obsession with pain and grind but for me that's the moments when I feel like myself. That's when my most genuine smiles happen. It's been the best tool to reintegrate my lost masculine part back in a healthy way and finally feel as a whole, self-reliant and resilient to societal expectations and pressure. Who would think, right? That the best way to find yourself and your place as a woman could be through such a stereotypically masculine activity.

Kevin — this is beautifully written and profoundly resonates with what we are trying to protect. At our gym in Pai, Thailand — led by Kru Sittiphong (Eminent Air, Bangkok) — we often find ourselves discussing this exact tension. The split you describe between aggression as war and tradition as festival maps directly onto the current shift happening in Muay Thai today, especially in the growing clash between Muay Farang and traditional Muay Femur. So many Westerners arrive here asking for two sessions a day, intense sparring, and "hard training" to burn through their fire. They believe output equals progress — but they miss that in Thai Muay Thai, form comes before fire. As Kru says, “If no one corrects your technique, you're just burning energy and money.” You can train for years and still lack timing, balance, and control if no one slows you down. He calls this rush-to-power style "Muay Farang." Not in judgment — but as a cultural observation. It’s mechanical. It’s linear. It seeks transformation through depletion, rather than refinement. It forgets the smile in the sparring ring. The mutual game. The moment when two fighters laugh and say, “You got me.” That ease is the solarity. That’s the festival. Lerdsilla, Saenchai — we show students how they move not to win but to shine. Their movement is gift, not dominance. We see this in our students too — that knife’s edge between aggression and release. Some say they want to spar to “let out the fire.” But this isn’t the Thai way. Not really. Not the artful way. Real Thai Muay Thai is not made in war. It’s made in play, in rhythm, in control, in beauty. Muay Thai was born out of community, not conquest. The rings were surrounded by farmers, not fighters. And even now, the countryside promotions like Pai Fight Night are pushing back against the gambling, the scoring controversies, the drift toward aggressive spectacle. They are preserving Muay Thai as cultural heritage — as festival, as you so eloquently say. Even the structure of Thai training reflects this longevity: one thoughtful session a day, not burnout. Recovery built in. Years spent mastering balance before layering in power. It's a slow art. A patient art. It cannot be "hacked." And it cannot be copied in systems that don't understand its roots. So yes — we’re witnessing a shift. And some, like Samart Payakaroon, are trying to protect the tradition. Others, like the Muay Femur stylist who left ONE Championship, are quietly walking away from the pressure to perform brutality over brilliance. We believe this conversation matters deeply — and must continue. Thank you for holding space for it, — Jennifer & Kru Sittiphong Sittiphong Muay Thai - Technical Muay Femur Training Pai, Thailand

This was their fight back in August, where Marie pulled out the upset. I believe Marie was a last minute replacement in that fight. Useful to compare the fights.

This was just a really wonderful performance by Barbara, on so many levels, for the RWS Raja belt. You could feel her training in her fight, the way she stays within herself, at surface a very basic approach in terms of weapons/style, but underneath it all is a very important thing that not a lot of Westerns understand. You fight WITH Space. And she persistently denies Marie the space she wants, it ends up blowing up the fight, especially because she brought with her a beautiful very deep, head-sink clinch lock that Marie had no answer at all for (and that Raja let her work from, thank goodness). I have to watch the 2024 fight where Marie upset her in the clinch, but in this one Barbara was loaded for bear. This is the same recipe Sylvie used to beat so many, especially bigger opponents. You fight the Space, not the opponent. And you fight your fight with the belief "If I fight my fight, my way, the right way, you are going to have a very difficult time". I also loved Barbara's 20% - 40% power hands, just using them to touch and semi-pop Marie, to stress the space. No mindless, 100% power combos, actually seeing one's way in the space, and touching the opponent. This is just glorious controlled dern Muay Thai. Barbara's lock was so pure, so good - with a very deep head sink. She also had something that a lot of locking fighters fail to do. Once locked you walk your opponent. Not only do you pivot, or pull, you drag and also literally walk them so that their feet cannot set, so you tangle them, breaking the line of counter control. This is advanced, developed stuff and great to see. A lot of Thai stadium fighters of today don't even do this, its part of the eroding art of clinch. She also was very aware to drag Marie off the ropes so the ref break doesn't come and she could paint longer pictures of her lock dominance. Small touch with big awareness and effect. I don't really understand why Marie decided to fight this fight as a pure femeu fighter, back to the rope. I have to watch their first fight, but this plays exactly into Barbara's closing style. I imagine this is something trainers have been moving her toward? I'm not sure. A very cool, very worthy victory.

You could just pick a high-level gym in a European city, just live and train there for however long you want (a month?). Lots of gyms have morning and evening classes.

What a Fight. One of Most Personally Enjoyable Female Fights I've Seen in a Long Time I may not expect others to thrill at this fight as much as Sylvie and I did, but Dangkongfah vs Karolina Lisowska of Poland was just quite an experience for us to watch. A big part of that joy was being so familiar with Thai female fighters in Thailand (Sylvie has fought nearly 150 Thais, easily the most any Westerner has fought), so in explaining what made this fight so awesome for us I get to tell the story of Thai female fighters in general, over the past 10 years or so, so I can point out just how good Dangkongfah's performance was. As a sidenote, none of what I write is significant commentary on Karonlina, a fighter I do not know. Appreciating That Female Fighters, Understanding Their Development The best Thai female fighters, historically, but also still, develop their skills in the side bet circuits where local fight scenes in the provinces produce top fighters in a gambling milieu. The female fighters fight a lot, and the fights are very traditional in style (which is to say, narratively driven, balance, control and dominance being major scoring factors, purity of technique rewarded, and with clinch a significant part of all cards). Local top fighters travel around to other local top fighters in festivals, and the bet sizes go up. This prize-fighting scene produces highly skilled, complex fighters...but they tend to hit their apex around 14-15. That's when they are fighting the most frequently, training hard, and are actively being sharpened by the gambling. Once they get around that age they stop fighting so much (often because it is harder to find opponents, but also in terms of just the changing social status of young women). They can still be very, very good fighters, but they usually flatten out. In the past great fighters like Chomanee, Lomannee, Sawsing, Loma, and Phetjee Jaa came out like this. These are the yodmuay of Thai female fighting. In their later teens they might fight on the Thai National Team (amateur), but really in terms of development by 16 the peak of sidebet skill driving is missing (this side bet process is what traditionally drives the skills of male Thai fighters, well into their late 20s or even 30s, in the National Stadia. The next gen after the one mentioned above, because the side bet scenes have been eroding, haven't really produced the classic female "yodmuay", the one who takes on all comers, and has reached the apex level in the traditional way. Potential side bet yodmuay came through like Nongbiew and Pornphan, pretty strong fighters at 15 or so, but nobody reaching those past levels (Sylvie fought both of these fighters when they were at their apex, giving up significant weight). What ended up happening in this gen is that with the rise of Entertainment Muay Thai mid-level Thai female fighters, and some top level, from the side bet circuit were brought into Entertainment oriented training. A lot of these fighters who had developed a timing and narrative prize fighting game were newly taught bite-down and combo fighting (which is pretty foreign to them). Entertainment Muay Thai wanted clashing, so female Thai fighters (who were timing fighters) learned instead how to just come in with memorized strikes. Some, got good at this, and did well in Entertainment Muay Thai, but most floundered a bit. They were fighting out of their element, away from their skill set. Always the Underdog The interesting thing about Dangkongfah is that she rode this wave of opportunity in Entertainment Muay Thai, she began using combos and clashing, becoming recognized on (televised) Super Champ, which was somewhat promoting her as a Thai story, but she really wasn't pretty with it at all. She in fact had been in the Fairtex stable around with Stamp was taken in and began being fashioned into an Entertainment star, but Dangkongfah was not taken seriously, perhaps viewed somewhat as a backwardish Isaan fighter, from the countryside. What people didn't appreciate, and what Entertainment Muay Thai didn't really care about, about Dangkongfah is that she's a highly developed prize-fighter, she is really, really, REALLY good at managing a fight, in the traditional sense. She doesn't usually LOOK like she's doing much, but she is really good. So Dangkongfah was something of the Cinderella step-sister to Stamp at Fairtex. She left Fairtex, had some recognition on Hard Core (an Entertainment, small-glove show), and then got some revenge on Entertainment Muay Thai. The excellent Allycia Rodrigues beat Stamp for the ONE World Muay Thai title in August of 2020, and then one month later Dangkongfah faced Allycia for the Thailand belt (trad Muay Thai). She beat the ONE World Champion for the belt, not looking pretty at all in her combo-ish strking, but managing the fight with the brilliance of a fighter who had been fighting for prizes since a kid. It must have been a tremendously satisfying win. Allycia would then defend her ONE belt vs Janet Todd 6 months later. Around this time Dangkongfah also took the 112 lb WBC World title vs Souris Manfredi, in a fight set up basically with the aim of giving Souris the opportunity for the much desired title shot - there had been many roadblocks. Again, in a way that was probably frustrating to her opponent, Dangkongfah controlled time and distance, walking away with the belt. She's just such an interesting fighter, but to see it, to feel it, you have to have her in the traditional ruleset. When she fought Meksen in ONE Entertainment Muay Thai, fish out of water trying to trade wonky combos in that style with an experienced fighter, with some visible size, who will just combo cleaning up the middle. It was a blowout. Dangkongfah had gone up to Buakaw's Banchamek gym, which had worked with talented trad female fighters trying to help them fight in the Entertainment, Kickboxing style. Sylvie's long time opponent Nanghong Liangprasert (now using the fighter name: Nong Faasai PK Saenchai) was up there. Again, this seems to largely be trad teaching timing, narrative Muay Thai fighters how to throw Entertainment combos, so they can get fight opportunities in the growing Entertainment versions of the sport. There is another element to this story, and the appreciation of this beautiful fight (on Patong Fight Night) which is that some young Thai side bet fighters end up on commercialized gyms like Banchamek or Fairtex and start weight training and drilling combinations, but many others move out of their teen situations and stop training hard at all. They will be adding combos so they can fight and clash in Entertainment Muay Thai vs Westerners, but they will gain weight pretty quickly. By the time they are 18 or so a 51 kg fighter can easily be a 60+ kg fighter, facing Westerners. They will have added a bite-down style for Entertainment, but many are outside of the rigorous training that made them quite good when they were 14-15. This is enough to say, when we see a Thai female fighter on television, who was once pretty skilled and sharp, often someone Sylvie has fought when they were apex, and they have gained a lot of weight, the first thought is: Are they training hard? Are they running? Will they gas? And, will they just be throwing combos (which really isn't their deeper skill set)? The expectation is that they no longer are peak. This is what made Dangkongfah's performance so stunning, and so enjoyable...so admirable. She has gained a substantial amount of weight. She's only 22, but the guess would be that she was quite far from her peak as a fighter. She was NOT far from her peak...in fact this is probably the best I've ever seen her fight. We've seen maybe 5 fights of hers, including when she was maybe 13 in Isaan, we know her arc really well. She was so good. I feel bad for her opponent Karonlina because there is no way she could know how good Dangkongfah is. And looking at her she might have thought she'd have it easy. This was a late replacement fight. It was NOT easy. This is what I LOVED about Dangkongfah's performance. First, she was able to fight in the traditional style, which is HER art. So much praise for Num Noi (the promoter) for creating a REAL traditional show, right in the heart of Phuket tourism. You need a properly reffed, full-rules setting to see what Dangkongfah is, since a kid. But, what is even more cool is that wherever Dangkongfah is training they gave her a wicked jab. In fact she worked almost the entire fight through one of my favorite inner games for a fighter, Jap-Teep in combination. But these are not memorized combinations, this is using them in a creative game of timing, changing levels, intensity, feints. Entire fights can be fought through just these two strikes, and Dangkongfah is doing it at a very high level. She actually isn't teeping much, but her teep-fake is so hard (with the knee bounce) it makes the opponent bite. The form of that feignt is almost as good as a teep itself, changing levels. Just watching these two lead attacks, and the sharp quality of her jab was a thing of beauty. She had practically given up all together the wild combos she had taken up for Entertainment Muay Thai, she had returned to her timing art. This was very moving for me. By the 3rd round her jab and teep had subtly managed to change Karolina's fight distance, putting her "on the porch" as Sylvie and I like to say, exactly where Dangkongfah wanted her, so she could control, negate and counter. In the 4th Karolina figured it out, her distance was wrong, and she tried to walk through the porch, but it was too late. Dangkonfah is very experienced with this. She just muddied up the 4th with clashes and more jabs and teeps, (a big teep to the ground to establish stylistic dominance) denying any change in the fight. She is expert at spoiling the clinch, and it served her very well, draining away any chance for a change. It had already been decided in the 3rd, in terms of style and narrative, and she just used the 4th to lock it away. Then in the 5th it was a walk home with the lead in the trad style. This is how I like to watch fights. I don't really watch strikes. I see them like anything else, but I like to watch distance control and timing, the way the fighter manages these things. Also, even though she had put on significant weight, she looked FANTASTIC. She wasn't winded at all (maybe a little in the 4th round some of the edge came off?), she was incredibly light on her feet (lighter than in many of her past fights), she moved like an optical illusion, subtly shifting, driving, changing angles. As a basketball fan I have a certain weakness for very light-footed, super skilled big boys like Charles Barkley or Big Baby Davis (above). When athletes are big bodied, but display finesses, touch, speed and agility, its just plain stunning. And looking at her, it even seem possible that even though she's much bigger than even a year ago, she may be power lifting? She just looked fantastic, like even though this isn't a normie body, this is HER body, and she looked totally at home in it, even maybe apex in it. All these things together just made the fight unbelievably joyous to watch (nothing against Karolina who fought admirably). Dankongfah as the continual underdog, from Fairtex dropout to wild Entertainment combo-ist, here getting to do HER art, and with these beautiful new tools, tools of real Muay Thai, in a promotion that favors the trad art. And that she's found a place in her body where she just is being her, being free in the ring, in a non-trad body, using all her skills and instinct. Seeing this wonderful fighter having a place, a trajectory. It meant a lot.

I wonder if that is Nungubon's gym. Nungubon does have transfer over to Hongtong (the Hongtong boys are from Ubon), in fact I believe that farang who handles Nungubon's IG trains at Hongtong at times, if I'm not mistaken. More broadly though, thanks for such an informative, and personally grounded post to help others out Joseph, good stuff!

Hey Alex, the other big dude here. I've been 3 times in Thailand and to a dozen gyms, so I think I might be able to help a bit. Silk Muay Thai, in Pattaya, is a great suggestion by Kevin. A friend of mine trained there for a while and fought a bunch of time at Max Muay Thai. The level is pretty high and quite a few westerners there. But I never been there. I would say, you need a gym with primarily Westerners or where a few westerners regularly train. I found that training with Thais was a "problem" only when sparring, but not training and clinching. By problem I mean that I find that size difference matter more in sparring. Thai are so strong and technical in the clinch, they can "overcome" size more easily than when sparring. The reach is a killer. For training, with pad holders, most gym will have a pad holder that is bigger for the big guys to whom you'll be assigned. For clinching, they always paired me with the strongest Thai and even if they were never taller than maybe 5'9", 5'10" and usually at least 60lbs lighter, they always, always dominated me. Some made me cry by dominating and raggdolling me around, which they enjoy quite a bit, the tossing around not making me crying lol.. (luckily, I sweat like no one, so who sees tears in sweat). Personally, Hong Thong Muay Thai in Chiang Mai, is my favorite gym, the owner Joe and the team there are just the best. They have very good connections if you want to fight and Chiang Mai is the best city in Thailand for my taste. There are a bunch of westerners there. Big turnaround, but you'll usually find some pretty big guys. The only thing is you'd be arriving in Jan. and the Smoky season starts like end of Feb. I did not have any problem with it, but I was lucky, there was basically none of it that year. Some say it's really bad, others don't. Sitjaopho in Hua Hin is another one with a lot of westerners and a Sweden or Norvegian connection (because one of the twins live there) so there are usually big(ish) guys. I personally did not like this gym, I had a very weird experience and would never go back, but so many people love it. If you want a very traditional setting, there are two brits brothers in Ubon who are like 6'7" and 6'6", significantly taller than me as I am 6'3". They are skinny, around 85kg if I remember well, but at that height, it's was a very good fit for me as I am not a lean 120kg, so not that strong. They were training alone in a gym that closed, they moved to a very traditional gym. I don't know the name but I could find out. They also often go to Hong Thong to train and fight in Chiang Mai. If you want I could put you in contact. Another option is Emerald in Krabi (and Phuket, they now have two gyms). The owner is a former European champion. He's very involved in the training and is there everyday. He's not a small guy and "destroyed' me in the clinch and sparring. But it's a French heavy gym. Which personally I like cause it's my first language and I am half french, but the personal connection might not be as good if you're not. French are... well French. Finally, I you're in Bangkok a few days, I would suggest going to pk saenchai gym. It's one of these gyms who "buys" fighters like Tawanchai and it's quite a treat to train besides a bunch of champions. There are a few westerners, but just to see how hard they train and the level. It's worth it. You have to impose yourself a bit if you want to spare and clinch and all, but once they see you train hard, it's all respect. I would say that's a golden rule for "overweight" people like me, leave it all there. Try not to look tired and try to be among the people who train the hardest. Thai are quite into fat shaming; they have no problem grabbing your belly and shaking it saying "why you so fat". A bit hard on the ego, but.... it is what it is. I found the first few days, they kind of automatically think I am a tourist who knows fuck all about Muay Thai and that I am absolutely out of shape (I think maybe that was the issue at Sitjaphaopho). But once they see your technique is decent and that you train hard and you have heart, then it's all good and I would say, they actually enjoy very much sparring and clinching with giants. They LOVE clinching with big dude and throwing them on the ground. They really enjoy it. So that's my 23 cents. Hope it helps. Please don't hesitate to reach out. I've been to other gyms, but these are the one I stayed for longer.

The Enjoyment of Festival Fights https://www.facebook.com/watch/live/?ref=watch_permalink&v=942850751079497 So enjoying this Udon festival fight stream, found via Egokind (https://x.com/Egokind1) This is the real of Muay Thai. Hell, the last fight with kids was pulling 6K viewers in the stream, while RWS was pulling 2K. There was a Japanese fighter earlier (guessing from appearances), maybe big-for-his-age 12, or maybe 14, who gave it his all as the Thai illegal tripped him endlessly, such a very real experience for him. Just hearing the crowd of gamblers and community shout on every strike, even the local commercials, this is just beautiful stuff. Hard to explain how satisfying it is when it its not just a "show" for tourists. I say this, as two...maybe "influencers"?? (who don't have much Muay Thai, or once had Muay Thai, but now seem to have have quite a bit of animosity), go hard at each other in the ring, right now. There is a difference between a "show" that is a commercial product, and what I would call Thai spectacle. Spectacle is understood as unreal (thus, "does not count", un-significant). Thailand's Muay Thai, in its cultural fabric, can weave the spectacle and the real, together...which is why Entertainment Muay Thai, as a tv phenomena in Thailand, was so hard to read. It was completely unreal...spectacle (Thai Fight & MAX in those days)...but then it started making claims of the real, even the "most real". In festival fights like these you can get an entire spectrum of Muay Thai, in all its shades and colors, from spectacle to the very real. Kids on the come up, Old Men, rising stars, big side-bet fights. It's like a fair of Muay Thai. The most wonderful is that you get the full ruleset in the provinces, including repeated and continuous clinch fighting, and very strong aesthetic sense of narrative in scoring. Everyone understands stories are being told, and they are being told at all distances, in a full range of skills, even among the less skilled. It is the spoken story of bodies.

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You asked simple, so the answer is simple, but can be very effective. Just kick under it to the open side. You can even be late on this kick. There are probably a few reasons why there isn't a lot of jabbing in Thailand's Muay Thai, but this is one of them. A kick to the open side is a very significant score, one of the few strikes that doesn't even have to have effect. The jab is almost a non-score. So trading these is pure win. But, in same stance this would require you learning a quick, lead-side kick. It's a very good kick to have, so no loss there. Key though is to not rely on point-fighting. If you can develop this to have some pace (preferably with no "step" in the kick) it can become a serious deterrent, not only to the jab, but also to the straight. And, because you are tall, if you turned this also into a long knee, this could be a significant problem for opponents. These are very simple, high scoring, maybe a bit difficult to develop power in, (but you can do it), answers.

Also I think, aside from even the ideas (and values) inside of all our heads is that what must be respected is just how authentically people experience Thailand in differing ways. It is a transportive country, and Muay Thai, no matter how you encounter it, has a way of opening foreigners up and showing themselves a possibility that is extremely meaningful...to them.

Yes, Lamnammoon is a perfect example (too bad he kind of has left go of his ambitions to restart his gym). He has that aura, that presence, that vision, that ethic.

Thanks for the good words. I used to write a Philosophy blog some years ago, so you could get a sense of my interests and influences from there. Most of it was research around Spinoza, with influences like Deleuze & Guattari, Wittgenstein, Davidson, Autopoesis, Bourdieu, minor influences like Agamben, Negri, Campanella, Vico. Most of the blog was organized around research into Spinoza's lens-grinding and optics. I'm not sure though how to recommend books, as some of the stuff I read feels very, narrow of field? This was my list of 10 greatest philosophers: 1. Spinoza (parallel postulate under a register of power) 2. Plato (formulating the Orphic) 3. Augustine (Immanent Semiotics of truth) 4. Plotinus (Degree of Being transformation of Plato) 5. Davidson (Triangulation and Objectivity) 6. Guattari and Deleuze (Ontology of Affects) 7. Wittgenstein (Language Game) 8. Nietzsche (Ascent of Metaphor) 9. Sophocles (The Surpass of Tragedy) 10. Maturana and Varela (Operational Closure)

I recently got a concussion from my last fight. It was a really rough fight and I didn’t perform as well as I could have. It’s been a few weeks and I’m still dealing with some emotional and cognitive symptoms from the concussion (memory issues, irritability etc). I am having a tough time getting back into training… it just all feels “off” and I’m not enjoying it the way I used to. Any tips with recovering from a concussion, and how to get my passion for the sport back?

There is really no proven way - that I know of - to rush recovery from concussion, other than getting good sleep, chilling out on secondary jarrings, staying hydrated, eating well. You simply will not fully know how much you are being physically (or even mentally) affected, and you may be feeling the blues because of the vulnerability you experienced in being knocked out. These are not small things. My own thoughts from a distance would be to maybe start building up your training through shadowboxing. Have a whole hour in the Library on shadowboxing as taught by Yodkhunpon. This way you might develop a different feeling for your muay and development, something that isn't jarring you. Everyone is different, and you might still be affected by the concussion, symptoms which can include depression. Here is a long preview of the full MTL session, you can find the whole thing here.

Violence and Muay Thai "violence does not participate in any order of reasons, nor any set of forces oriented towards results. It denatures, wrecks, and massacres that which it assaults. Violence does not transform what it assaults; rather, it takes away its form and meaning’" Think about this in terms of Thailand's Muay Thai and fighting. The purpose of the rite and practice is not to denature the other.

Consider not turnover over the kick, and instead working on the classic more upright Golden Kick: You can read more about it here: https://8limbsus.com/muay-thai-thailand/golden-kick-how-to-improve-your-thai-kick The turn over aspect of the kick is often over emphasized by non-Thai krus who don't really see all the connective tissue in the Thai Kick (generally). Most of the classic kicks turn very late in the arc, because they want to keep the opponent centered, and they don't want to be out of position for more continuous offensive flow. You can see more about Karuhat's kick here: #111 The Karuhat Rosetta Stone 7 - The Secrets of the Matador (83 min) watch it here Karuhat is the most documented Golden Age legend in history, thanks to the sum of all the filming and commentary we've been able to do with him. This session though provide the key to understanding all the other sessions. And there is a very special focus on his particular Golden Kick. An alternate kicking style: #143 Takrowlek Dejrat - Master of the Low Kick (90 min) watch it here One of the great low kicking fighters of the Golden Age teaches his squared up, pressuring, Muay Beuk fight philosophy which uses an extremely fast, vertical low kicking technique that keeps the opponent exactly where you want them. This punishing style, built on defense and ring control is extremely effective, using techniques that are not often taught. Study the low kick in a way you haven't seen before.

After a little bit of research, and contemplation, I figured the kyokushin close quarters kicking is the best approach to study.

Hey, I just saw this now, I'm surprised nobody replied before. When I was in Thailand in 2021/22, I also did several privates with Yodkhunpon and enjoyed it very much! I paid and did the sessions at Petchrungruang gym in Pattaya and the initial contact was made by Sylvie, whom I wrote on facebook (thanks again!). The sessions after that, I arranged directly with Yodkhunpon. Unfortunately I havent been back to Thailand since, so I like to read about other people's experiences, so keep writing people! Has anyone been at Singha Mawyn in Bkk? Superbon used to train there, but more importantly the trainers are legends themselves e.g. Namsaknoi and Khaolan Kaovichit. Would also be interested in reading about Kiatphontip just outside of Bkk, and other semi-rural settings.

I’ve heard a lot about Hong Thong, and it’s cool you got to train there for a month. The air quality during that time sounds rough, so thanks for the heads-up—I'll definitely keep that in mind if I plan a trip in March. The gym’s focus on fighting sounds perfect if you’re looking to compete. I’ve had similar experiences where the training quality depends on your partners, so I get that. Private sessions with Joe seem like a solid idea, especially for clinch work since Muay Khao fighters really know their stuff.

I don’t see how you can go wrong at any of the gyms you mention , sit Thailand has a great gym and is technically brilliant. My son 13 was there last year and they treated him so well , we are back now and they seem to be growing with more trainers than before . They fight regularly and have Thais and farangs fighting . They seem to have a connection with Spain as both times there have been decent Spanish fighters there . They have girls training and fighting . It’s 75bht in a bolt from the old town and takes 15 mins Hongthong is a similar distance from our hotel . Ultimately people will tell you their preference but that might not suit you

Sometimes the podcasts go into these concepts. Not the Library though, it's all documentation. I write about these some on my subforum, for instance this article:

Wangchannoi is no longer at the gym, he has moved to a small gym in Cambodia. Bangsaen had indicated westerners were welcome to train with the gym, but it Isa true Thai gym and ther aren't many options nearby so staying at the gym seems most likely the only accommodation if you intend to stay beyond a couple days. They don't have social media in English, so I'd recommend just going to the gym and pleading your case: https://maps.app.goo.gl/4N8wMms2sU3xkeBbA

There is no video keeping. Patrons get access to the Library, according to tier. $10 subscription will give you access to the entire 140+ video Library, and everything else published (like technique vlogs, podcasts, etc), as long as you are a patron. $1 gives you access to the last 5 sessions we've published, but these keep changing. The truth is that we don't update the tiers very quickly, so right now the $1 tier has the last 11 sessions we've published. But once updated it will be only the 5 most recent. You can see the tiers and their sessions always here, in the Table of Contents: https://www.patreon.com/posts/muay-thai-uncut-7058199

I'm posting this review sent to me by Naadia: In review - a month training and living at Kem Muay Thai Gym in the mountains in Khao Yai, Thailand There’s a sign as you enter the neighbourhood- it reads I Love Khao Yai Tiang. And I do, it’s impossible not to. With the weather being a little cooler than Bangkok and even the south, this mountain gym is isolated and wonderful. It’s the home of champion Kru Kem (sitsongpeenong). His little gym in a corner of paradise. His expertise is sharp and his time generous. Once you stop pinching yourself in disbelief you can really allow yourself to be loved and taken care of by Pee Kem and his family. And the man can love as well as he can fight; subtly, honestly and wholly. Sprawled out over a small valley the gym and accommodation share the land with Pee Kem’s family home and his large chicken collection. Outside his home is a small, silty fish pond which can be swam in. And often was by me. Huge spaces for dining, viewpoints, private balconies and hammocks allow for space and quiet reading spots. Pee Kem’s warm and bubbly wife, Pee Mo, who takes care of all your needs, made sure I celebrated my 40th birthday in style! They accompanied a student for a visa run, organised fights, excursions, massages, and a whole plethora of add ons which stave off any potential cabin fever. His children help out and often accompany students on excursions and if you’re really lucky, his youngest (7 years old) may even hold pads for you! It’s a real family affair. A short walk from the gym are a few village shops and a bike ride can take you to some cute mountain eateries. Otherwise it’s a true camp experience with two meals, two training sessions and accommodation in the package. And it’s one of the most reasonable around. The views are fantastic, the call to prayer from the mosque across the valley reverberates through the hills, crickets chirp, the chickens cackle, Nikethe camp dog howls back to the mosque, the jungle makes its noises yet peace is everywhere. Nine private en-suite rooms ensure the gym population stays intimate and family-like. Meal times are announced by the calling of your name (“Naaaaadia, dinner kaaaaa”) and food is adjusted to accommodate dietary and portion needs, and is delicious home style Thai food. For some context, I was training for my first amateur fight when I tore my ACL a week before I could get to Thailand. I was determined to work around my injury and keep my travel plans and the trainers at Kem Muay Thai were super thoughtful when understanding my parameters and also helped me in realising that I was more capable and powerful than I ever thought. In bigger gyms I had avoided class sessions as I was concerned I would exacerbate injury without someone always watching me. Pee Kem’s gym was small enough to have eyes on me at all times and I enjoyed working alongside my camp-mates. I’m a contract worker so gym-hop globally and the Muay Thai training here is excellent! Sessions include running pre session, weighted and unweighted shadow boxing, followed by bag and pad work. Emphasis is placed on technique with drills in focus, balance, posture and ending in hundreds of power knees, blocks, teeps etc Mornings tend to be a little lighter but sometimes they’d be some shockers in there! Conditioning segments with weight or ladder circuits also featured during the week. At the end of the session stretching would be done as a group, and Kru Kem and Kru Mee would have a chat and massage students, we were really well looked after. Both trainers ensured your headspace was right too, building self confidence, drilling mantras and “Kemisms”! “If Kem can do, you can do!” “You no scared, you Nak Muay”. I say that so often to myself now! I picked up some extra private sessions with Kru Mee, whose long career in training champs and handling injuries speaks for itself. He honed in on my clinching and really brought my technique to a new place, found sore points and guided me through the reintroduction of my switch and my right teep (I’d thought these were off Limits with my injury). I’m back in the U.K. now. Usually enamoured by the British summers it now irks me. The roses and lavender bloom but I yearn for frangipani, hibiscus and mountain flowers. My ears miss the chickens and whilst my ankles are bite-free for the first time in weeks I can’t help but miss the love on the mountain. I miss Pee Kem telling me “If you happy, Kem happy.” I spent a month with my now family, learning Muay Thai, training hard, but also being privy to life in an extended Thai family, being introduced to Isaan music and dancing, corrupting the camp (a story for another time lol) and making friends for life. And that, for sure, was worth every bite.

First of all I’d like to thank Sylvie for arranging this for us even though we’ve never met or spoken before , it was a really kind gesture by her to help a total stranger We arrived in BKk last night at 9pm and my son Lewis 12 had a private lesson with Sagat this morning at Jaroenthong Muay Thai gym. Everyone at the gym was really welcoming and gave us plenty of bottled water to cool down. Sagat was really friendly , first they did a warm up which was slightly different to his at home and consisted of a lot of stretching . This was before the lesson was supposed to start so a bonus . Lewis has been doing Muay Thai for nearly 4 years so Sagat spent much of the time fine tuning his basics , like he said perfect the basics and the rest is easy . Junior Muay Thai in U.K. is no head contact but Like Sagat said he will be 16 in no time he needs to protect his head . They worked on punches and guard for 30 minutes stopping to let Lewis get water and cool down . Remember we’ve just come from Manchester England and it’s nowhere near the temp of BKK so he’s not used to the heat yet . The thing I liked is he has great patience and is very enthusiastic when you get it right , his attention to detail is amazing . He sees every tiny fault and works on helping you correct it . Lewis really enjoyed working with him , and for somebody 65 he’s remarkably fit . They ended the session doing sit ups and press ups together. We are going back tomorrow on a Sunday ! If you are in Bangkok and want to train with a legend then I’d highly recommend Sagat , he’s not cheap 3000baht but it’s not every day you get to train with an icon of the sport we are going to Chiang Mai on Tuesday night and hoping to train at Kru Thailands gym so will post a review later in the week

Dear Forum hello, Planning to take the teen group from my club to Thailand for 10 days training. Ages: 14 to 17 ; between 5 and 8 people; Levels: beginner to intermediate (no yet advanced / regional competition level). Purpose: Technique improvement as well as general experience (cultural enrichment). Less important are the beaches and vacation atmosphere. Preferably renting a house nearby rather than hotels. At first thought South Phuket ''AKA-SIMBI'' axis or Revolution X. Season July-Aug to suit to the school schedule. Any recommendations for camps suitable this project? Any areas welcomed. Looking forward to read similar positive experiences feedbacks and recommendations. Thxs in advance, Ced

It's awesome to hear you studying the fights of Chamuakpet. I haven't looked at them closely in a while so I couldn't say, but I like your idea that he's tracking the openside with his knee. Karuhat's switches seemed to be score relevant, closing the openside when he had the lead, etc.

There is a really good 2+ hour video in the Muay Thai Library project which documents the legend Karuhat deciding to switch Sylvie from orthodox to Southpaw. It shows you how he did it, and talks about the reasons why he did it. It's really good: Karuhat was a switching fighter, one of the best, so some of this is just his own ability to step into southpaw, but he was trying to solve specific things in Sylvie's style. She ended up fighting for about a year and a half in Southpaw before switching back. I think its great, honestly. I prefer her as a southpaw fighter. She eats up space a little bit more, is much stronger up front, and kicks better. The problem with most moves to Southpaw is that offensive weapons may very well improve, but defense will suffer until fully developed, so in fights the comfort level might not be there for a long time. Generally though, if you feel better in southpaw that is a huge reason to go that way. And, southpaws have natural advantages in most matchups, you automatically gain those.

Thank you kevin this was an excellent read. Adopting cultural norms alongside shaping one's style and muay makes thailand's martial arts scene so tangible and traceable to the living humans who practice and teach it. Goosebumps.

It is so refreshingly free of norms and so laden with them in some ways. I have fallen in love with my muay and see it as something I have a relationship with, a living expression of who I am, and shaping my muay has allowed me to 'celebrate' the parts of myself its expressing! Thank you for the response!

Before I ventured into the Muaythai world in Thailand, I did extensive research and decided that I would like to spend almost a month training. Sylvies videos about the expanded web of gyms and their preferences turned my attention to Kem Muaythai gym in Khao Yai simply because of her notion that Kem gives lots of attention to basics and clinching. Also, the other part of me leaned towards gyms in Pukhet since this was my holiday, so the combined environment with beaches and nightlife looked attractive simply because I needed rest. I have contacted Kems gym and asked about conditions, etc., but my first ticket was to Pukhet, and while I was looking to book some arbnb and looked at the gyms there, my question was: do you want to train or do you want to have vaccation? There is no mix... Love towards Muaythai screamed training, and in the last few days I changed my ticket to Bangkok and acknowledged Kems gym that I was coming. And boy, that was the right decision to make. I arrived well past midnight, and I was escorted to my room by a young Thai trainer. He just said welcome; running starts at 6.30. I slept a bit and woke up on time for my first running session, exploring steep roads and buggy jungle roads for the morning run. It was beautiful. The first training session started afterwards, and then we had breakfast made by Kem's wife, Mo, and her mother. The food was delicious. But I didn't expect an afternoon training session of 2–3 hours (the same duration as the morning ones), and after it I had dinner and went to sleep. After a few days of pain, my body adjusted, and after 20 days of training, I felt and looked as if never before. Training is tailored to your level, and Kem sees everything, even when he is sparring. From conditioning, basic stance, kicks, and elbows and knees, clinching and streching every day at some point was a fight to survive. And I liked it. Kem will correct every small detail, and when he sees your progress, he will add more. I must mention the other few trainers there who were excellent in every aspect. Pad work was extensive, and they all showed patience and the will to teach if you are willing to put in the effort. Also, the gym is spacious and open, so the mountain breeze and sunset while doing the post-training situps impressed and left a deep impression. With a few people there at that time (Anna, Jay, Yassin, Cloie, and Luke), slowly we became bonded, day by day, supporting each other. It is a family gym, and you are treated as such, and everything is done outside of training so that your stay is memorable. Kem and Mo took us to various venues around Khao Yai National Park, restaurants, shops, and sometimes I even felt he was overly concerned about your well-being. But that is how the real hosts behave. His wife Mo who is managing the place, when I mentioned that Sylvie reccommended the place smiled and said she is a friend. The smile and joy bursting from here naturally make you happy just to see her. Also, I met some other people who got there following Sylvie's review. As my departure was approaching, a few of the guys had scheduled fights (Luke and Jay), and I was so sorry that I had to go. I found out they both won. What a month it has been. Kem and Mo took me to a train station, and we performed good buys. I said Kem I will be back. And I will.

I don't think so. We've been pretty much told over and over that no Thai in the country around Sylvie's weight will fight her, so unless they were fighting a few years before we've lost touch with some of the names who are active at this size.

Almost any gym can get you a fight. The part you should consider for yourself is getting to a location where fights are plentiful, so your chances of finding an opponent and a program during your stay are highest. Chiang Mai and Phuket have the most frequent fight opportunities.

This is probably far afield, but reading your thoughts brought to mind this thread I did on how Thailand's rigors of training, the very shape of its hyper-masculine practice, support a kind of trans- experience for Westerners. Lots of sociology and theory in this thread, but who knows it might connect up with other thoughts:

One of the interesting things in Michael Chaney treatment is that he specifically would like to erase the highland/lowland distinction that a lot of historians focus on. This, for instance, in Thai-Siam studies can be quite emphasized. Part of this may be that highland cultures may have had more of a penchant for aggression or violence in combat - for instance headhunting seems to have persisted in the highland regions much longer than elsewhere in mainland Southeast Asia, and in Siam-Thai ideology these peoples have been positioned as "savage", opposed to the high culture of the Capital and its halo of authority out to the foothills of the North. I don't really know the distribution of ethnicity, but have you noticed an cultural connection between highland (or lowland) Burmese and present day Lethwei? That is a very nice data point. My own intuition is that I have doubts about Muay Boran (or Lethwei) directly coming from combat itself, at least large scale combat tracing back to the 17th century, for example. My main reason for this is that practically every piece of evidence I've seen is that this kind of combat is not weaponless at all. Everyone is armed with blades, spear/lance and/or shield. I'm sure every rice farmer was very adept at using a blade for work. If there WAS a direct development of a fighting art for or from military actions it most certainly would have been a weaponed fighting art, and the shield would probably be a significant aspect of that fighting. We can make conceptual connections to how Muay Thai, Muay Boran or (I guess) Lethwei may be related to weaponed fighting...but that fact that it isn't weaponed fighting seriously undermines some of that historical picture. I could though see subduing an opponent being part of much smaller scale raiding, which would be largely focused on slave capture. I think this makes perfect sense. I think trends in culture and expression really change and can change fast, in a decade or two, and not necessarily reach back centuries. A big part of the ideological picture Thailand presents about Muay Thai is that it is the reason the Thais were never in historical fact colonized (the story that is told). Instead it is presented that a series of Kings through strategy were able to find ways to absorb Western influence & control, and retain a sense of ideological identity. [sorry, I wrote all this before I saw that you brought it up! But I'll leave it in nonetheless] In the Thai telling they "won" because they were smart and pliant before a formidable force, something they navigated with great sagacity. You can see how the two mythologies diverge (not making judgements on either). The brief (allied) Japanese occupation left a mark on Thailand, but largely there has been seldom a sense that a foreign invader had to be fought off (since the Burmese defeat of Ayutthaya, with possible exceptions of some of the 19th century slave capture revolts in the Northeast, and the fight against Communism in the 1960s-1970s, and today's insurgence in the South). Largely, Thailand has painted itself as "whole". Maybe this makes a big difference in terms of what fighting means to a culture. Much further up in the thread this is discussed in broad SEA historical view by Anthony Reid. He suggests that even the way in which SEAians thought about property, identity, wealth, was shaped by the transience of wooden houses. This flows into the idea of the perpetual possibility of retreat. Houses were not valuable. The land in a certain sense is not valuable (because fertile land is not scare, as say it is in Europe). Speaking very broadly, invaders or raiders would come, villagers would run to the forest and take all their valuables with them (wealth had to be transportable), and the village would be burned. He presents this as nearly a pan SEA pattern lasting centuries. When the Dutch came and established trading posts in, I think Jakarta?, they were forbidden from building anything with stone. Everything had to be made from wood, with the exception of the palace (and perhaps wats). In the sense or warfare and conflict, if Anthony Reid is right, then raid (and maybe burning) were a regular part of the life cycle, as was fleeing to the forest or mountains, and relocating one's village. The main point was not to be captured, and to escape with one's relative wealth (rice, valuables). Personally, I see in this transience of the abode something even of the foundations of the Buddhist conceptions of the transience of the Self. As the palace and the wat were made of stone, you have the contrastive permanence of spiritual and political authority. This is quite different than in the West where one's home/land helps constitute one's more individual identity much more. The "castle" of the Self, to which Western religions are more focused on. In any case, an interesting speculation.

I wonder if what is being depicted is (easily) identifiable ethnic differences, rather than just a practice. I'm feeling that the tattoos, at least at this time (late 1800s) indicated a people. I believe Burma had several warring, or at least conflicting ethnicities. Thank you for following along. It is a difficult thread, as some of this is just dropping article reference, and some posts are concept building posts. What is interesting is that all of this is very likely the kind of work that just is never attempted in relationship to Muay Thai or even combat sports/arts. The story of the development of Muay Thai is often a very simple one, with very little specific anchorage in history. And in English this story just gets repeated. But, because there is very little substantive scholarship on Muay Thai, one has to bring together diverse scholarship from other fields, and attempt to piece together a picture, create a new, richer, more complex story.

I've been following this thread (very very interesting but takes time to understand) and have some reflections to come on myay thai fighting as avoidance of conflict. But first thing I noted of the Burmese warriors were the leg tattoos (as you point out) known as Htoe Kwin, deeply associated with lethwei. Mainly older lethwei fighters will wear them but some younger fighters have adopted the practice as well. There's a Wikipedia page on this, but the sources on htoe kwin I'm not too sure about, lots of misinterpreted, simplified info spread by Westerners due to lack of Burmese translation.

Recent review of Kem's Muay Thai Gym in Khao Yai Tiang: "The training is mind blowing. All three Krus are different but they’re not jusy chasing your endorphin high for you by letting you smash pads and feel the rush. There is so much technique work. I haven’t spent much time in classes in other gyms just mainly one on Ones as I’ve torn my ACL and didn’t fancy big classes injured but we are just a handful here so I know if he’s not training me Kem is watching me all the time. And so hands on in terms of the accommodation and other care eg he’s driving a student to Cambodia today for a visa run. Such lovely people. I’m humbled. And I can hear the call to prayer which is important to me. Thanks again for the recco." Naadia

I love this about Muay Thai in Thailand - like fighting fish. Float, float, float, explosion of movement and then float, float float. So beautiful. My first ever teacher, who is Thai, wanted me to be very agile and hop around a lot, mostly because I'm small but also some older styles sometimes have more movement like this (SOME); but I really love this stand-in-your-space aesthetic. It's the baddest-ass pissing contest in the world!