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I 100% get what you're getting at with the Dexter vs. Conan example, but I chafe at the serial killer comparison because I believe you have to actually be quite empathetic to be a good fighter. You have to know what fear and pain and shame feel like to be able to impart them on your opponent - and to a softer degree your partner in training scenarios. But yes, definitely not the "beast mode" of the Conan approach. I've found that for myself, a degree of insistence is what works the best for me in training. I'm slightly pissed off, but not in a way that's directed at anyone or anything. It's just that my version of slightly pissed allows me to let go of judgement, I think. There is a kind of Hannibal Lector quality to feeling the emotional and energy state of your partner and calmly guiding them toward the deep end. Like, "you look close to quitting, let me just nudge you a bit." I've personally had a hard time learning how to have that "killer instinct," or your version of a kind of sociopathic instinct, in aiding your partner's weaknesses because it feels shitty. For a very long time, if I knew that what I was doing was putting my partner in an emotionally difficult place, I'd back off. Even though in part of my mind I know that's no favor at all. There's a fighter at my gym who is the universal little brother. He's literally the little brother of one fighter, but he's the youngest (without being the 7-8 year olds, who are kind of their own set), and he's a butterball who gives up and hates being tired, so Kru Nu is always working to toughen him up. Like, if he can't finish the morning run in 1 hour, he has to run more. A few times, he's been running on the road, all of us in the van with the doors open just kind of crawling alongside him. It's punishment, for sure, but it's not just him. If Alex comes in behind so-and-so, he has to run extra or do pushups or whatever also, and he's kind of a "star" of the gym. So, I struggle with this because I have a compassionate impulse to get out and run with the little brother. Just so he has a partner, a friend, something to make it less all-eyes-on-you. But I also know that a lesson is being taught and by jumping out and doing that, it comes off as "motherly," which I 1 million percent do not want to associate myself with in the gym. It's that same struggle when I feel my partners wanting to quit, or having a hard time, or hitting an emotional wall. I've been there. And I've had people ease up on me - so I know that just lets me stay exactly how I am. And I've had people not ease up, and I know that helps me grow. So, it's a weird version of "serial killer compassion," as it were.

I was curious to hear how people train their killer mentality without actually taking it out on their training partners. I dont really subscribe to the barbarian/berserker mentality for my fighters as I feel it can make them sloppy and tend towards too much emotion in a fight. I do however put out the though of being more like what we imagine a serial killer to be like. Picture more Dexter vs Conan and youll get the idea. If you can get past the serial killer term, the idea is to be calm and collected while still maintaining that killer attitude. Why I think this works well is it becomes a dimmer switch in training, with my people being able to turn it up or down depending on what they are faced with. The hardest part is to figure how much or how little to apply in sparring. Even there though the attitude of being a serial killer still works and even allows for the person to scale it back. The part thats most important and the part even I still work on is the clinical detachment while maintaining the killer aspects. So how do you do it?

I don't think this is the case. It might be that the way Muay Thai is watched and scored in the provinces allows for more clinch, so the fighters rely more on clinch, whereas fighting in Bangkok the clinch is broken more quickly, so fighters need to make adjustments to that, etc. But it's not divided by style in any way that a casual, or even familiar eye would detect. A few of the men I've talked to who are of the Golden Age age (meaning now they're in their mid-40s and older), talk about how Central Thailand (Bangkok, Chachoengsao, Chonburi and maybe stretching into Ayuthaya area) the fighters are both skilled and strong (i.e. the best), with a nod to the South for being the same; but they complained that Northeastern fighters are strong but not skilled, and Northern fighters are skilled but not strong. I honestly always register these assessments as being bias toward one's regional identity. No Northerner would say the same, nobody ever says nice things about Isaan and yet, tons of the best fighters come from Khon Khaen (Karuhat, Pudpadnoi, Somrak) who are very skilled and yet there's no credit given.

Changes to Lumpinee Stadium: Not sure if you all will be interested in the kind of "what's going on in Thailand" news, but I find it interesting and will be posting things here. Recently, there was a big meeting at Lumpinee with the head of the stadium. Lumpinee is run by the army and the man who is the head of the stadium is a high ranking officer, whose face was showing up in photos and and reports of this meeting, which seemed to be focused on 1) creating a new set of enforcement for punishing fighters who "lom muay" (that's "taking a fall" or "throwing a fight" to us), with a specification that "dek" (the word for children, but also colloquially used for "young") will be given a second chance; as well as some rules I'll have to get help fully understanding from Kru Nu, which seemed to be about fighters who change gyms and their alliances. And 2) how to drive more business to the Lumpinee, Ram Intra area throughout the week so that it's not just the 3 days on which they have promotions. When New Lumpinee opened, it was hit hard by being a completely inconvenient location and audience attendance plummeted. There are some things to do over there, but there's construction on the overpass and traffic is terrible, so the financial struggle at the stadium is real. The part that's interesting is this "lom muay" part, because within a couple days of this meeting, this fighter was accused of throwing his fight. Aekgarat Tor. Dor. Gudanamsai is seen in this video returning backstage after the referee called his fight off. He was out of power and after the third round the referee announced the fight was dubious and had both fighters exit the ring. I've seen this before - the first time Kevin and I saw it on TV we had no idea what was happening. It's not frequent, but sometimes a referee will decide that one fighter is not really fighting, or trying to throw the fight, and he'll stop the fight right there and all bets are cancelled. Sometimes fighters are suspended, sometimes there's an investigation and it's ruled that it was not being thrown; and sometimes the referee is suspended, in the case that his call for stopping the fight is deemed a method of cheating for gambling purposes. Suspensions are uncommon. But the disdain that fighters who are known to have thrown fights are spoken about, demonstrates this is a big sore spot on the face of Muay Thai. In this video, the military police come into the back room. He mostly just stays there to keep the fighter and trainers from going anywhere, then escort them to a meeting with this high ranking officer who runs Lumpinee. There were photos of that meeting in posts after this. Ultimately, the fighter explained that he was a replacement for this match and had only a week to prepare, which is why he had no power in the fight. He was not suspended or punished, ultimately. But in the video there's a guy who comes and is just screaming at this fighter and his trainer. You get a good glimpse of Thai style "not my business" with folks in the background, including another fighter who is getting ready for his match. The guy who is yelling is a gambler and his language is harsh. You'll get gamblers screaming at fighters from the stands after fights, but it's another thing for them to come backstage. I find it interesting that the military police officer is only concerned with keeping an eye on the fighter and trainers and has no care at all for controlling the gambler. In the comments on the facebook share of this video, my favorite is from a guy who, using very harsh language himself, directs his comment at the gambler and says, "if you've got so much energy to yell at the fighter like this, why don't you go fight the opponent yourself." Ultimately, one of the reasons I'm sharing this is that the proximity of this meeting and announcement of punishment for throwing fights to an event in which a fighter is accused is highly performed. To have published photos of the meeting and then published photos of a fighter being accused, taken to the office, and ultimately let off with a warning all appears to be a "we made a rule and watch us enforce it!" kind of thing. https://www.facebook.com/190387948278006/posts/360860344564098/

Do you want to train mainly or are you looking at fighting as well? If you haven't fought yet, but want to, you might want to look at Phuket. From what I've heard training might not the greatest everywhere, but quite easy to get fights as beginners. Bangkok has many good gyms, but getting a fight as beginner can get tricky. I heard great stuff about PK Saenchai gym where Tawanchay, Rodlek and many others train and you also see them there regularly. There's also FA Group (very clinch focused) in Chatuchak which is not far from Ari a very nice neighborhood sort of hipster area of Bangkok. They have many great fighters such as Yothin. Mixed thai fighters and foreigners with a higher skill level. For a "true" thai experience there's Numponthep gym in Klong Toey (sort of regarded as the slum of Bangkok, but not bad at all and close to Sukumvit) very simple facilities but good training. Nonsai who many westerners know come there to teach now and then. Sitjaopho in Hua Hin I also heard should be really great. And there's Lionheart on Koh Samui run by a nice Irish fighter and his family. Bit touristy and many beginners but still very nice. But I want to make you aware that if you want a true Thai experience the way I understand it, this means you won't be important. The Thai fighter is the focus and foreigners a side business. That doesn't mean you won't get good training, just that focus is not on you. At gyms where the foreigner is main figure well...it won't be the most thai experience I guess you would be looking for. Most gyms regardless of what they are will have great teachers that take pride in teaching their art. But also, they see thousands and thousands of foreigners of all skill levels come and go and that's just the way it is... It's difficult to build relationships in a short time. My advice would be to find a nice gym in a nice area/town you also like. Not pay in advance. Get a room close-by and make sure you are comfortable and happy so you can enjoy and learn as much as possible.

In my mind, I'm bashing your face in. People that know me, reckon they can tell, when I switch on the killer as you put it, James. They say they see it my eyes. I seem to flow better when I put it on.

I have read that certain areas of Thailand produce certain styles of Muay Thai. Unfortunately, I couldn't find any detailed information, but from what I could gather, it seemed that in a particular region of the country more emphasis will be put on a certain aspect of the fight ( for example: clinch), while in another a fighter will use a particular guard. It would be interesting to try and draw a map of the different fighting styles according to the different areas of the country. I don't think this has to do with the actual style of the single fighter (Muay Khao, Muay Mat, etc.): it rather seems to be something more "at the source", it seems to have to do with how every part of Thailand developed its own branch of Muay Thai. Does it make sense?

A big variant is how Muay Thai teaches/trains domination, not aggression. You can use aggression to dominate, but only to a certain degree. You don't (often) get a "killer" mentality for this reason. It's all about controlling the other person, imposing yourself. This is really a different world than a lot of western thinking. But it's worth pointing out.

Thanks Sylvie, thats exactly the kind of personal explanation I was looking for from people when I wrote this. Ive had the same issues in training as well as being a coach. Even coaches need to exhibit this kind of mentality with fighters or people that too easily give up. Slippery slope for me as a coach. It means I have to really know the person Im pushing, what are their goals, how are they built mentally, and can I break the chains theyve developed without breaking them in the process.

I think most people do. The "game face" as its called. I always wondered how deep people went though. In a fight, its pretty much kill mentality until the bell or your opponent is unconcious. How does one train that with control? What are the visual or auditory cues to get you to scale it back before you hurt a teammate? The reason I ask is because for everyone its different. Not the kill aspect but the control aspect. Also, we always hear about the different ways to condition our minds towards battle, but what about battle at the right time?

Wow, such helpful posts! Thank you guys so much. @SunAndSteel, I really appreciate that you mentioned how your reasoning changed and what was wrong with it. That is/was exactly what my reasoning was: I wanted a full holiday with a pure MT focus. But, you can only train twice a day and I do want to experience all of the beautiful culture and nature Thailand has. I'm thinking, pick two locations, and find gyms in those areas. Regarding Yokkao, your experience sounds great! There isn't too much on the internet so it can be difficult to do research. However, I have seen that people say the Yokkao gym is in need of a clean and sometimes health and safety is an issue. I have no idea how accurate this is: what would you say to that? Was there any thing negative about your time there? I will also definitely check out Khunsuek. Regarding private lessons, is there anywhere online where you can check the fighters schedule/upcoming fights, so you can try and deduce if they'll be in the gym? Thanks so much for the helpful responses guys!

Oh yes that guy

Only time this comes up is when you get a guy who's probably printing his own credit cards or some kinda scam back home. Got an apartment with 2 phone receivers on the floor duct-taped together upside down. Then comes to Bangkok and wants to be king of the white people. Actually, the not talking about techniques etc? Another thing that never occurred, because all the other foreigners didn't speak English. So we had google translate friendships mainly.

Andy this is gold. So interesting about the wide stance for men, and I know the "cat paw" well lol. Funny that it is universal. I appreciate you getting so concrete about how men and women actually work in a gym. Your gym sounds like a great place and I like what you say about the actual "fight in them". That must be something you can only see under duress, and its beautiful that it has NOTHING to do with gender. Love it.

Apologies this might be slightly off topic. Not a coach, but a woman in a male space, and I reacted to this by Sylvie: and disgusted with myself for having an automatic sense of competitiveness. Not competitiveness in the sporting sense, like how men might get to enjoy having a spar to see who's slicker, but competitiveness in the "there are limited social resources here and I now have to protect my hard-earned position" kind of competitiveness.Which is shit. Which is why you get women throwing each other under the bus to be teacher's-pet, or creating cliques when there are only 3 of us, or not being supportive despite there only being fucking 2 of us. I completely understand where this is coming from, usually spots for women are limited and we all have to compete for that one spot above the glass ceiling. But I also find it unfair. I'm sorry to say, but not all women in a muay thai gyms are cool. There are various types, the hard worker, the one who flirts to get some teaching from the male trainer (no judgement it's an effective strategy), the super hard tough girl who talks to no one and will kick the shit out of your shins (understanding her too) or the "know it all" etc etc. The point is, usually guys have the luxury of having ten other guys as training partners to relate to and train with. Finding their favorite or the asshole they cannot stand. But as a woman you're expected to instantly connect with that other woman who shows up and if she's not cool, you're not being a good "sister". And that sucks. And it's simply the result from having too few other women to train with. And to me that's the most limiting factor being a woman training muay thai. The longing for a female partner to compete with and learn from and then handling the disappointment when she turns out to be not so cool. And that whole pressure of having to get along with a fellow muay ying and to not appear like that woman who likes to be the only woman in a male space.

Well, I would be careful about wanting the "thai experience", for that is exactly what I sought and that disappointed me about training in Thailand. Unless you speak Thai fluently, and you are only and exclusively into fighting, you won't enjoy being surrounded by Thais only in some camp in the outskirts of Bangkok. I went to train at Sitsongpeenong (Bangkok) for a few weeks, thinking that its isolated location, its huge stable of Thai fighters, the lack of any distractions around the facility, would lead to the ultimate Muay Thai experience. It turned out, however, that mine was a foolish way of reasoning: the eastern outskirts of Bangkok became rapidly boring after a few days, the Thai fighters wouldn't really speak to me or any of the other students, while the trainers barely spoke a few words of English; it was impossible to socialize, and that, added to the fact that there was nothing in terms of distractions outside the training hours, quickly made my stay very different from what I expected. I learnt that distraction from training, as long as it is not intended as drinking and partying, is equally as important as training itself. For what concerns Yokkao I can strongly recommend it. Not only is the gym located in the heart of Bangkok, in a beautiful area in which you won't feel isolated, but the training and the vibe around it are great. The vibe, in particular, is what struck me most pleasantly: there is a sense of joy during training; everybody laughs, smiles, has a good time; you see Manachai smashing pads, Singdam coming back from his daily run, and Saenchai arriving at the gym looking for the first victim to prank. The quality of training is high, the level depending on your skill: I have seen lazy tourists doing the minimum required and professional fighters being pushed to their limit; you will have to show interest and motivation, for you will only get what you are willing to give. But no matter what, Yokkao has nothing deserving criticism. I had a private session with a trainer named Sak, and found him a great coach, highly experienced, patient and motivated. Please consider training with him if you are at Yokkao. For what concerns privates with Saenchai, I recommend you to book them in advance and be ready to pay 200$ per hour. Saenchai is not only the legend of this gym, but also the head of it: it was my impression that the type of Muay Thai taught at Yokkao resembled very much Saenchai's style on the ring: clever, elusive, fun. That would be it about Yokkao, but there is another gym I want to recommend to you, though it is located in Ao Nang, in the South of Thailand. It's called Khunsuek, it opened only recently and is a state-of-the-art facility. It certainly caters towards westerners but there is a trainer here, named Peteak Sor Suwanpakdee, who is by far the best coach I have ever had, who will tear your technique apart, and push you hard; one class with him is worth the entire trip to Ao Nang. Hoping it helps, I wish you a good trip.

You ask if you can fight already as beginner or if you must be advanced. In Thailand we often see beginners fight. Even if Thai beginners are sometimes used for easy wins for westerners. Nay the real question, in west beginners usually fights with paddings on belly and shins. Taking them off - and being forced to harden up belly muscles first as advanced. But if you are prepared it will hurt, all belly kicks shin hits, elbow hits - sure. Go ahead. Thais appreciate brave fighters whom fight on although hit and perhaps even bleeding. If you arent experienced but brave and humble its OK. What you should avoid is to gracelessly turn away as soon the beating begins. Thais wont say anything, they will splash water in the face to conceal the tears. But it doesnt look good... Even here you can save your face: compose yourself. Humbly tx the opponent and his trainers. Congratulate and hug your opp... last not least: train belly muscles...

You don't have to be previously experienced to fight in Thailand, but the promotions you'll fight on will be determined by your abilities in Muay Thai, as determined by wherever you train. And, of course, that gym's connections and availability of shows near you will shape those possibilities/opportunities as well. I've known a handful of people who come to Thailand as day-1 beginners and fight within a month. It's just experience, it's not going to be a big show. But you do have to let your gym know that you want to fight, and then demonstrate your commitment by how you train. I agree with Kevin that you shouldn't leave it to the end. Not only because in Thailand things change very quickly and you might miss your chance altogether, but also because having only one fight at the end of your trip puts too much pressure on the experience. If you plan to have one in the middle and another a bit after that, it takes the pressure off of both. Plus, whatever happens in the first, you can learn from it and apply it to the second. My first fight was a year after I first started training. I was not "prepared" to fight at all. I'd only sparred 2x in my life, a couple of weeks before my actual fight. The way I trained in the US, in Master K's basement, I'd had no real contact - fighting was, in a rational sense, a terrible idea. My teacher didn't want me to, either. But I was "ready" in the sense that I really, really wanted to fight. And that's a difference I think is most important when thinking about any of this "stepping into the ring" process. It's about wanting it. Readiness and Preparedness are not the same thing, and the first is way more important because it drives you. You can do your best to be prepared, which is how you train, but in the end it's not as important as just wanting to fight. If you wait until you're "good," you'll never get in the ring, haha. I've done it 241 times without thinking I'm "good." There's nowhere else in the world that you can train and fight the way you can in Thailand. Nowhere else in the world is fighting PART OF training, the way it is in Thailand. It would be a shame not to experience that, especially since you have a significant chunk of time to be here and train. Some folks only come for a week. A couple of months allows for tons of experience, especially training 2x per day. It's exciting!

The quality of your experience may really depend on the camp you go to, and the area of Thailand you go to as well. We have tons of experience up in Chiang Mai, and none in the very popular islands in the south (so no comment on happenings down there). Chiang Mai is awesome because there are just tons and tons of fights, and because of that the process of placing a fighter against someone who won't be a mismatch is well thought out. Simple math, the more opponent options available, the higher chance of a great first, second or third fight experience. Also, some of these gyms are really experienced with beginner level fight introduction. Kru Daeng at Lanna Muay Thai has been shaping westerners towards first fights for probably a decade. Having someone who has guided that process for years is a huge thing. We haven't spent time with Joe at Honthong Gym, but that gym also seems to be one that is very fight friendly. In general though, the best thing about Thailand is that fighting is seen as part of the training process, not some elite thing you do once you are really, really good. Everyone fights. So you are entering a kind of fight culture that can support what you are hoping to do. I totally agree with James about letting your gym know that you really want to fight, so they can put you on that training path from the beginning. But disagree a bit with the "at the end" or "near the end" of your trip strategy. Lots and lots of people do the "at the end" bit, and its often a mistake. I can't tell you how many people we've seen make "at the end" plans and have their fight fall through for a 1,000 reasons, and get nothing. Also, the at-the-end mentality really puts fighting in the wrong context, as a culmination, instead of a part of your overall training and development. Both Sylvie and I strongly recommend that if you want to fight once you should really aim to fight at least twice. That way you don't put too much pressure on yourself to prove yourself, but it also allows your trainers to see you on a path. With a 2-3 month stay that is definitely long enough to fight twice, and maybe 3 times. I would suggest, as long as you feel comfortable, and your trainers are on board, to try and fight your first fight fairly early if you can, so you can soak it all in, make adjustments, come back to training. This is what is special about fighting in Thailand. Because there are so many fight opportunities and the culture is so accommodating to fighting itself (not only elites fight), you can fight in different ways.

Yes, just book a room nearby so that you can get to the gym for a day of training to see how you like it, then decide whether you want to stay. For Banchamek, if you go there, just book one day and night at a time or whatever and decide whether to book a few weeks after that. If you expect to be training WITH Buakaw and Yodsanklai, you will be disappointed. If you're lucky you'll see them walking around, but they're not at these gyms all the time. Yodwicha is at Buakaw's gym now and if he has a fight coming up might be training, but fighters like these aren't training all the time (or even often). You're more likely to see Yodsanklai at Terminal 21 mall across the street from Fairtex than you are in the actual gym... my husband and I see him there when we are eating dinner, hahaha. This is not to dishearten you, you can train anywhere you want. But be realistic about your expectations and be flexible in your plans so that you don't get stuck. If you land, check out the gym and like it, then that's awesome and you will be happy where you are.

Not paying ahead for the full period will be the best. Because if you dislike the gym/area but already paid it you can't do anything about it (or loose money). So I would recommend starting with 2 days or something like that.

Thanks so much Smossy! Really helpful answer and I'll definitely check it out. I think Sylvie had a blog post on training with Sagat there so I will definitely do my research.

Thanks for this. I'm going to Thailand to experience how thai's train and experience muay thai in the country that birthed it. I'm not going for partying and a side of muay thai, and i have been to thailand before so even sightseeing will take a bit of a backseat. That being said, I chose those gyms because of Buakaw and Yodsanklai, and because they're quite known hopefully there's a good investment into equipment etc. Wow, I didn't know this. Is there a reason Banchamek is so empty right now? What I find difficult is booking accommodation vs not wanting to pay ahead until I've seen the gym/area. Do I book a hotel for a day or two after getting off the plane and then book the rest of my stay once I've looked around and decided?