Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu

this is the craziest thing, Isaan seems like it's the bread-basket of amazing techniques, but it is saddled with rural stereotypes.

We have noticed that the Long Clinch, as Sylvie studied from Tanadet - in the Muay Thai Library here - seems like a Northern technique, at least at this point in time. You can see the Long Clinch in the first part of this video: But, we are just guessing that this is a Northern technique, based on where we've seen it used more often. As to regions, back when Muay Boran was codified in the early 1900s, sure there were regional styles, but today styles and the adoptions of techniques seem much less in terms of region, than in terms of krus or padmen, who disseminate their own tool box in a particular gym. Because Krus and padmen move all over the place, they take their tool box everywhere they go.

Skarbowsky has told us he'd be glad to film with us when he visits Bangkok, so hopefully that one will happen.

We have another one coming in about 10 days!

One of the things that makes Muay Thai beautiful, and perhaps especially made for women. Thais are small, and in the conception of the art is the thought that it is made for the defeat of larger people. Which is kind of how it made me laugh when someone like Kenshin does breakdowns of Muay Thai fighters beating absolutel6 huge opponents, but then imagine that there are fundamental physical inequalities that categorically bar them from being able to handle Male opponents. Yeah, 70 pound differences can be overcome...but "bone density"...hmmm

That is incredible. I can't wait until you get it! Fight robe. Wow.

Speaking to everyone reading this thread, there is a very good book on Craft, and what is lost in a society when we lose craft: The Craftsman <<< Whether we are talking about craft beer, or craft woodworking, there is something very vital here. Muay Thai is craft fighting.

Maybe we are getting somewhere as to the original question of the OP. Does a Martial Craft become a Martial Art simply when it passes into the hands of the Rich? And even more problematically, is this the case with all crafts and arts?

Some of the most un-beautiful things, I find terribly beautiful. For me art or Art always has to be beautiful. It's up to the viewer to discover that beauty, sometimes its buried very deep within there, or at the conceptual edges. It's just a hypostatized version of our relationship to the world. As to art and craft, that is a super interesting one. Muay Thai in Thailand is much, much closer to a craft than an art, in most of the gyms producing fighters. I like that term, Martial Craft, rather than Martial Art. I think we are getting somewhere!

It may be possible. Youssef and his brother used to train at Sylvie's gym, back in the day, I believe. There are connections.

Right? The question is, is a completely useless Martial Art, still a Martial Art? (if there ever as such a thing.) Or, how far do you need to go in the direction of uselessness, before a Martial Art simply becomes Dance? Or, even more interestingly, how far must a Martial Art go in the direction of utility, when it ceases to be a Martial "Art", and simply becomes martial. along these lines, this is Jigoro Kano, the inventor of modern Judo (and the belt system that Karate adopted). This, the portion where I linked (1:40), is impossibly beautiful to me. But, I'm not educated enough to know what these forms mean, in the complete sense of what they do. It would be disappointing to me though to learn (if anything like that were argued), that they are perfectly useless. It's beauty is invoked at several levels:

I think Wilde was not a Muay Thai fighter, and lived in an altogether different universe. There are, in this other universe, a trinity of transcendentals (as they are sometimes called), Truth, Beauty and Goodness. Three dimensions of the same thing. All three strike me as quite useful. One of the things that I find extraordinary about Muay Thai is how a truly beautiful move is incredibly beautiful BECAUSE of its efficaciousness. The right move, at the right time, is defined by its utility, without falling into utility. It also has the transcendental quality of mathematics, which has all 3 qualities, a mathematics of the body. At its highest, Muay Thai seems to possess all 3 through its utility. It has an almost Spinozist quality to me.

Oi. In the still you can really see the massive size difference. She's so hard to beat because she's super skilled and expert at controlling tempo. If you give her size too (which distorts all scores), its an uphill run. That being said I have such a memory of this fight. Sylvie was really, really whacked. We went to our all-time most dependable restaurant in Chiang Mai and she had a dish she always has, and just got clubbed by the food poisoning, nothing you could do. But yes, there was no way she wasn't going to fight. We've treated every fight as precious, that's our motto. Sometimes the fights you really might think to pull out of are the most precious. This one gave Sylvie a lot.

There is a tale that as Dionysus walked from India to the West his adornments gradually fell from his body, until he stood as Apollo, in Greece. That...is super cool and more or less amazing. It's a beautifully written response, and observation too. Very happy to have read it. It sounds like you are on an amazing journey, well worth everything you have bet on it.

Maybe Kaitlin will hop on, I think she is fighting today or tomorrow, but is a coach and has thought a lot about this I believe. What are your thoughts or intuitions?

So awesome James, happy it struck you! Means a lot.

Sorry, I know nothing about Kiatmoo9, other than the names of famous fighters out of it. If you are talking about gyms that farang regularly can train at, none of the farang-open gyms seem overly specialized to be honest about it.

Horses in the Age of the Gods were 20 ft high, little known fact (pretty damn spectacular, though)

Well said! For me, if I really care about Muay Thai, and its clash/synthesis in the west I really need to understand the history of what happened to TKD, which seems like a disaster (from my pov). I know that some people involved in the progeneration of Muay Thai in the west are inspired by the perceived success of TKD, and for me this constitutes maybe an existential danger. But, if I don't know what the hell happened with TKD, it's very hard to see if Muay Thai faces anything worrisome in that direction. My hope was that it would clue me in on all that, but instead the really interesting parts were what happened in the 1920s before TKD, when modern ideas about martial arts were just developing.

I put up extensive screenshots of one of the best chapters (to me), it will give you a sense whether this author has the right tone and level of detail. Not all the book is this good, but I really liked parts of it: