Leaderboard

We visited the General and Timothy today to drop off a tripod and a phone for hotspotting (with the help of our patrons). A photo taken of the General demonstrating, with Timothy looking on:

The general looking as focused and animated as ever. Can't wait for this series

It depends a lot on the gym, as well as if there are other little kids training. For example, when I was training with Phetjee Jaa and her brother Mawin, they had a little cousin who trained but not too seriously. So, he came on the morning runs but never ran the full 5-7 km, but would run a bit and then jump on the back of the motorbike that accompanies fighters when they run. (There is almost always a motorbike or car following fighters, as a safety precaution against dogs, cars, kids getting left behind, etc.) However, at a gym where there are more kids of the same age training, it might be more structured with them running together. The Jade Dragon Set only train in the evenings, after school. They arrive when the regular training is winding down and they have to wait their turn. They jump on the tires and tear around in the smaller ring until a trainer is ready to pay attention to them, and some days they don't get formal training at all. Lately the younger fighters (teenagers) have been holding pads for them, but if one has a fight Kru Nu or Kru Gok will hold for that one. They do drills, mainly, not so much "freestyle" padwork that you'd see in older students. They have to march back and forth in shadow, knee against the ropes 200 times, kick the pad 50 kicks each side, etc. They sometimes kick the bags but it's more or less counting out 100 kicks or knees or whatever, not what you'd call "bag work." They spar and clinch with each other, but usually 2 rounds (that's about 10 minutes). Usually that ends when someone starts crying, but if there's enough of them the others keep going and the one who is crying sits out for a bit until he's ready to start again, and if he doesn't want anymore he's never usually forced. So, it's kind of a version of regular training, but not the same intensity.

[admin edit: some of the photos in this thread were lost due to a probable attack on our website, unfortunately. We recovered most of the thread. Thank you to everyone who supported us through this.] Hello all. My name is Tim. I live in California and in a few days I’ll be leaving for Bangkok, Thailand to train Muay Thai Lertrit under the guidance of General Tunwakom. I contacted Sylvie some months ago about her participating in interviews for my masters thesis. I ended up spending hours talking with her husband Kevin. The next thing I know, I’m buying a ticket to Thailand. When Kevin proposed I come to Thailand to train with General Tunwakom, I was somewhat skeptical about the proposition coming to fruition, let alone the project turning into a full feature on their websites and media channels. But they made it happen for me. I am so very thankful for the faith both Kevin and Sylvie have in me and the opportunity they have presented me with. Thank you, thank you, thank you to both of them! I started training martial arts at age 17 and it’s been an all consuming venture since. I’ve trained in various disciplines of boxing as well as Brazilian Jiujitsu, and Kung Fu. Currently I’m a Jiujitsu blue belt in the Carlson Gracie organization and I hold a 7º black belt in Kung Fu San Soo. I’m not a fighter by any means however. Fighting as never been an interest of mine. I just like moving. Despite my recent academic achievements, I had an incredibly difficult time in school - I didn’t learn to read until the 6th grade and spent most mornings of my youth throwing heavy objects at my mother in an attempt to avoiding going to school. I sought refuge in sport. I've never been a natural athlete though, I had to write L and R on my shoes for during my first year of high school American football to know which direction to move (left or right), but moving my body was mediative and made me feel like I was a person. It’s what I love about martial arts - the meditative repetition of learning something, not until you get it right, but until you can’t do it wrong. I’ve learned more about my self and the world in the hours spent learning a punch or kick than doing anything else. It was my faith in martial arts which took me back to school. After achieving my black belt I thought: if I could apply half of the effort I put into getting my black belt into school, then it would be no problem. It was true. I always found away to make school about the things that interested me - food, skateboarding and of course martial arts. My master thesis seeks to blend theoretical sociology with martial arts. Which brought me to Kevin and Sylvie. They have presented me with this opportunity I feel is much bigger than me just traveling and training. I don’t know how to process the whole thing. Sitting here trying to articulate my thoughts has been has difficult has writing my thesis. I have all sorts of anxieties and fears about traveling and my skills as a martial artist. What if I miss my flight? What if my kicks are really bad? What if I say something dumb on video!? But anymore, embracing the things that make me anxious, embracing the things I’m afraid of are my favorite things. They make me better as a person. I’ll need to plan well so I don’t miss my flight. If my kicks are bad, I’ll throw 1,000 more. If I say something dumb, I’ve already said a million dumb things, I’ll try better. I expect I’ll be uncomfortable and cry at least once. I also expect I’ll learn much more than Muay Thai. I hope to make all my instructors proud, both the ones who have taught me to punch and kick as well as the ones who taught me to think and write. I hope I have fun and give the General peace of mind that he’s teaching the right student. Thank you, thank you, thank you to all who will take the time to read this and comment back. More to come. tm

I've had the fortunate experience of living/training in Thailand many years ago (2000 & 2004), so I think I have a general idea of how adult training breaks down. However, now that I have kids of my own, I always wondered about Thai kids just starting out their muay thai journeys. Scouring the internet for info, I've come across a lot of articles critical of children training and fighting muay thai. In contrast, I've listened to interviews with Francis and Boom Watthanaya who demonstrate the positive impact of muay thai on their community's kids. Furthermore, I've read Sylvie's article about the rambunctious "Jade Dragon Set" at her gym. That all said, I was wondering, for those of you who've lived/trained in Thailand at gyms with kids just starting out (I'm talking age 6-8), what do their training sessions look like (I'm talking specifics--number of kilometers ran, rounds of shadowboxing, heavy bag, clinching, etc)? I'm really interested in the detailed progression from pee wee to stadium professional. At what point do the pups just start on the same program as the big dogs? Any info would be super appreciated. Thanks all! --J

1. Breath 2. Use the waist 3. Transfer weight The General says this is what he must get me to do before I go or if I am going to teach effectively. These task are deceptively difficult, especially the breathing. It’s not that these are new concepts to me; it’s the way in which the General ask you to use and do them. There is a beautiful subtlety to the way he does them which is obviously the product of how long he as been doing it. 1. Breathing - I’m very aware of my breathing. I thought I did it quite well. There are breathing exercises I preform with some regularity and I when I roll jiujitsu I take a lot of pride in using my breath effetely. However, the General’s specific breathing strategy is proving to be tricky. The general emphasizes his breaths at almost opposite points then I’m used to. They’re shorter and the exhales come on the recoil of the punch - rather than at the impact of the strike. 2. Use the waist - If anything the General asks me to do that seems “new”, it’s the way he uses his waist. I’ve understood and even taught my own students the importance of turning the hips during a kick or punch, but I’ve always started this movement from the feet. The feet push through the ground first and the hips turn second. Rather, the General says the power comes from the waist (and the transfer of weight). During our lesson today, it was noted that often it’s the legs or the arms which turn the waist, which is not good according to the General. Rather the waist moves first, and then the arms and legs will follow. 3. Transfer weight - This is by far the most beautiful thing the General does. There is an effortless transfer in his body weight as he strikes. The only other shift in body weight I can compare it to, is ballet. I took ballet a few years ago, and it’s by far one of the hardest things I’ve ever done. There is no jerk or dramatic shift as the General moves. The only indication is a slight lift on his heals. It’s not a push off the ground like I’m used to. It’s a shift of his weight from one leg to the other. The General likes to say, “it’s the same, but different”. He usually prefaces with asking me if I know what he showing me. This is my least favorite question, in any art. I don’t think I KNOW anything. I’ve seen a lot, and I’ve practiced a lot, but knowing is something different. So when the General ask me if I know something, I try to respond with something like, “similar”. The General will smile and say, “it’s the same, but different”. This phrase is bigger than just our training, it actually encompasses my outlook on this trip. I’ve been to a few places. All over California, a tour through Europe, and now Bangkok of course. There are elements to each city that are always similar. There is crime, there are high rises, there is good food and bad; and so on and so forth. But each city has it’s own style, its thing which makes it unique. Bangkok is the same as any other city I’ve been to, BUT absolutely different (in the best possible way). Lertrit is the martial manifestation of Bangkok, if you will. It can look just like sport Muay Thai, but it is very different. There are subtleties which go almost unnoticed if they aren’t pointed out. But they make the world of difference. Thank you, thank you, thank you to everyone offering their support and encouragement! tm

Another beautiful shot of the General. The arc and power of his punches are like nothing else in Thailand that I've seen. Short, explosive.

Definitely agree here. Taekwondo is fundamentally identical to sport karate, they've just added some extra rotations in the spins. Ajarn Surat is definitely right. There is a similar thing involved in the absolute nonsense that is Ninjitsu, which is not a real martial art and never was. There are people who very much thing that some high profile Japanese instructors MUST have this lineage - as though being Japanese prevents the ability to lie about such a thing. I imagine the same is true of Muay Boran, we just don't know! A lot likely is reconstruction, but I can see why instructors wouldn't want to admit to it essentially being HEMA. Even in Shaolin, there is a sense that what Shaolin we are seeing from 34th generation disciples, who are passing on knowledge today is removed from what it originally was - and that is within the framework of a martial art and country that rigorously documents. Researching Boran, Bokator etc. really did open my eyes to how much Thailand, Cambodia, Myanmar etc. really is the wild west when it comes to martial arts.

Just a note on FA Group, one of my friends who was training there recently just left because he said there weren't many people training there at the moment. As has been mentioned, all gyms go through cycles so it can be tough to determine what it is like without physically going to see the gym. Accommodation is plentiful in BKK, though finding somewhere that will let you pay month to month can be a hurdle. Check on the BANGKOK EXPATS Facebook group, there are some real estate agents who might be able to find something for you. You can also try DDproperty and Renthub. Figure out your gym situation first, then find a more permanent housing situation. You definitely don't want to be traveling across town every day just to get to the gym. Attachai's would likely be a good gym to check into though their prices are pretty high (22k a month last I looked). That area should have lots of cheap apartments/food around, and the gym (or Emma if she has time) might be able to help you find a room for a short term stay.

Chances of training with him are pretty limited, generally. But he'll be at Sylvie's gym Petchrungruang from probably July 2019 til January 2020. I urge pretty much anyone who has a passion for him to make the trip out to Pattaya. It's very rare.

Man I love Dieselnoi. There's something about the very awkward way he switch kicks that gives me a smile. I hope I get to train with him, and hopefully not get knee'd one day!

Agreed. Personally Ive never had a woman say or act this way ever.

I dont see it often but every gym had at least one. I worked at Tapout in Los Angeles and that place saw more than its fair share lol.

Long live the GOAT:

wait wait wait, so those girls do that to other girls too and not just us?!? Damn

OOOooomg yes, the Charlie Zellenoff videos were hilarious. Ok now it's making sense, if we're talking about guys like that. Don't think its a macho / ego thing.... some people are just properly mentally disturbed. Like he would stalk pro boxers on twitter, talk shit to them, death threats, dropping N bombs, the works. Best one had to be when Deontay Wilder invited him to his gym after the keyboard abuse, and the nutcase actually showed up and got his ass handed to him. Brilliant.

Timothy's vlog #1 - First Day, Arrival If you'd like to follow this thread you can click follow at the top and get alerts when Timothy posts.

We also have to, I would STRONGLY suggest, accept the possibility that an almost decimated art would then become cross-influenced by the dominant art of the day. It may very well be it looks like Muay Thai because in attempting to assemble the art into a style, it draws on what it sees as well. This for instance is what supposedly happened when TKD arose in Korea, but almost exclusively as a derivative of Japanese Karate. In fact, it pretty much WAS Japanese Karate. After the war it become imperative for TKD to not be Japanese at all, and so began the long path of creating a supposedly "original" Korean martial art that TKD was derived from. And they found the thinnest little trace of one (nearly extinct at the time of Karate's arrival in Korea). So, the story building began, and that art, apparently called t'aekkyon, came to be claimed as the origin of TKD, something that a study of early TKD martial art manuals suggest isn't the case at all. t'aekkyon then itself gradually began a reconstruction, retroactively, with people claiming to know and teach it. The connective tissue between it and modern TKD came to be grandfathered in. And this had strong ideological motivations. Make TKD Korean in origin, not Japanese. My gut feeling is that something like this is happening in some cases of fragmented SEA martial arts that claim to be older than Muay Thai (an ideological claim). These arts can be reconstructed, from the present, into the past, and give the illusion to be origins. This actually is a problem with many of the Muay Boran claims in Thailand as well. We don't really know if any of these are actual lineages, or how much of them are reconstructions. Arjan Surat, who had a Boran teacher who is up on the wall of his gym, shook his head when talking about Muay Boran masters of today. "If he didn't know (pointing to the photo on the wall), how do they know?". That is one of the special, and indeed remarkable thing about General Tunwakom's Muay Lertrit. It is handed straight down from its creator, who himself was fusing Muay Khorat with other influences (apparently).

It reminds me of cultures that had an architectural history in wood. Almost all lost. Cultures that built in stone, highly favored in the invented histories of the world.

At one point I was working on a deep dive study into South East Asian martial arts, or Indochinese kickboxing. I was looking at Muay Thai, Muay Laos, Pradal Serey, Lethwei and noticing that they are quite literally the same martial art. There are differences in scoring like Pradal Serey favouring elbows, and Lethwei allowing for headbutts, but in terms of form, this is one martial art that has been spread around a long way. My initial hypothesis was that Bokator, the father art of Pradal Serey was likely to be the progenitor of all of these martial arts. However the more research I did, the more it pushed me to eventually scrap the article altogether. While the Japanese are very good at recording their martial arts history, South East Asia generally is not. It also didn't help that the Khmer Rogue destroyed so much of Cambodia's martial arts culture. While Eskrima/Kali definitely isn't close enough to be considered the same martial art, General Tunwakom's style looks very much like Eskrima. I think that's partly because of the influence that martial art appears to have had on his style, but also because the two martial arts share a lot of ideas to begin with. There's a distinct difference between Muay Thai, Lethwei, Eskrima etc. and Kung Fu/Shuai Jiao rooted martial arts like Karate, Taekwondo and Judo. The emphasis on knees and elbows, and unchambered kicks, give all of those martial arts a slower, more brawly aesthetic to them, when compared to KF/SJ rooted martial arts that have more fluidity and emphasis on iron body conditioning. If I had to really hazard a guess, and this is a stab in the dark, I think that Muay Thai and similar martial arts probably trace their ancestory back to India. I'd be surprised if there wasn't a degree of Kung Fu influence to it, but you're absolutely right. Muay Thai has a lot of similarities to other martial arts, sentiment in Cambodia is that Thailand stole Muay Thai from them. I was speaking to a martial arts historian who's fairly well known in these circles who said to me 'Cambodia says Pradal Serey is older than Muay Thai, and it probably is, but there's no real way of knowing'. The records are just non-existent. If you take a look at this demonstration though, this should seem awfully familiar to people from a lot of different styles.

Those were actually the guys I was talking about in the first post. They weren't 'proper' Muay Thai - but they definitely proved that it was possible for it to do well here - and from there we got actual thai boxers and westerners who trained in Thailand coming home and bringing it here properly.

This is a super interesting thread, love it. The change in rules reminds me of a podcast that I heard with Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu big dog Robert Drysdale who is spending a lot of focus on the narrative of BJJ's origins because he thinks the art had the same sort of reaction to the massive influence that judo had similar to what you're laying out here for the Muay Thai sweep styles: Here's the link if you're interested. https://grapplingcentral.com/episode-268-robert-drysdale-returns/ I especially appreciate your connection between boxing and boran, that's such an interesting change in the art.

Hi there. There are quite a few options in Bangkok, as you mentioned most cost around 8000-12000 month for 2 sessions/day. My advice is to check gyms you are interested in on facebook or instagram to get an impression of what kind of people train there at the moment. It is so hard to recommend a place as trainers change, students change and so on. Organize accommodation for the first few days in Bangkok and visit a couple of gyms to get the feel for it. And then pick the one you prefer. If you want to fight, ask other foreigners at the gym if the gym helps you arrange fights and how well they prep you. Some gyms let their students wait forever, promising them fights that never happen... Also at the moment it rains quite heavily now and then in BKK and some places get flooded easily. Might be worth to keep in mind when looking for a place to stay. Some gyms in the city that might be of interest to visit are: FA Group in Chatuchak (thai fighters and foreigners, they sometimes have quite a few larger guys) Attachai (Onnut) Muay thai academy/Rompo (Klong Thoey) Superbon trains there Numponthep (also in Klong Thoey. Mix Thai fighters, Japanese/Chinese and some westerners. Currently no one heavier than 65-70 kilo training there) PK Saenchai gym (Thawanchay, Rodlek and others train there) Sathian gym (Sangmanee trains there if I am not mistaken) ...and then all the camps found here: https://muaythaicampsthailand.com/category/bangkok/ You can also ask here: https://www.facebook.com/MuayThaiCampsThailand/ Good luck!

Maybe think about Santiennoi's Gym outside of Bangkok? He's handled some higher profile westerners (Samon Dekkers for instance), is a legend of the Golden Age. It's also a pretty traditional gym, probably a little unlike your past two experiences, which might be cool. In general though, checking out accommodation through AirBnB is always good. You can see the general cost of apartments and rooms around wherever you choose, and get a foothold that way.

Two background articles on this project: The Lone Master In Need of a Student – Saving Muay Lertrit Legacy Projects: Documenting 3 Student Weeks with General Tunwakom a video clip of General Tunwakom

A Japanese tank passing in front of the Royal Palace in Bangkok in December of 1941, beginning the Japanese occupation of Thailand as a staging area for the war. Rajadamnern Stadium was being built slowly through this period, until being halted due to low supplies in August of 1945. Building would resume and the first Rajadamnern fight would be held December 23, 1945, four years after this photo. The resented-by-many occupation of Thailand would likely shape the future relationship with Japan in the decades that followed. In the decade after the war Thailand would embrace western boxing, with three magazines devoted to boxing started in a very short time: Kila banthueng (1948), Muay raisapda (1949) and Kila muay (1950).

This is the electric tram that people would likely take to see the fights at the City Pillar in Bangkok, where the biggest fights would be put on in temporary circles (The city pillar was the holy center of a city, an actual sacred pillar). This is the City Pillar "Thanon Tok" line tram, 1887. We like to romantically think of Muay Boran in very antiquated terms, but people were literally taking cable cars to watch those fights for decades. This tram line was in operation for 25 years before the 3 schools of Muay Boran were even formally designated. And 41 years after this photo was taken the death of Chia Khaek Khamen when fighting Phae Liangprasoet at the city pillar (1928) would mark the end of legal, rope-bound fights in the Bangkok, by the decree of the King (Rama VII).

Hey, thanks for that! The forum is nice because it gives everyone room to think and go on about things, and to cover topics that might not fit in a Facebook post, or even a blog post. Very cool that you enjoy it all!

Rambaa's move of bumping the knee in is something that I do quite a lot, it's not so much a judo thing as it is a freestyle wrestling thing - which may be where he picked it up from, that being said though, I've seen other Thai boxers do it, and when Alistair Overeem does it, it's normally considered a muay thai dump. I've spent a decent bit of time dabbling in Sambo - which is my favourite grappling art, and very similar to Judo - and one of the first moves I was taught (incidentally also taught in catch wrestling class too) was to hoist the opponent from behind and knee bump their legs while turning them towards the floor in mid air. I knew it as a muay thai move too - but by coincidence literally this afternoon the group muay thai class was training it!

And Kevin, this is what I love about this forum and knowing you. This kind of info that is invaluable to knowing the sport I love. Thank you.

Good question. Theres this guy Charlie Johnson (tjthethinkingman on insta) who has pulled off the same or similar move and never been deducted a point for it. Granted its in Max muay Thai so I dont know if you can get away with more there, but he swears its legal.

Sikak Phya Sri crossing on Charoen Krung Road - Bangkok in 1912. This is the year Prince Wibulya returned from study in London and began teaching others the Judo he learned.

The back of your calf to the back of their standing leg calf, same time as a double push on the shoulders when they do a knee? Glorious, gorgeous and yeah, because it's not muscled but timed. When it happens to you by someone who knows how.....you're almost too distracted by him shoving your shoulders that you don't realise it's a calf to calf thing that pulled the rug from under you. Not being funny, but even if it is a foul, he almost deserves the point if he pulls it off with you not realising it was a foul. That's the most morally vacuous argument ever made, but hey. But the wrestler's knee tap thing - is it legal or not?

Yes, definitely. And in fights. It is unclear if judges will simply ignore the point on throws and trips that technically break the rules (the rules on this are not something Thai fighters ever see printed out), or, if the gray area, or out-right flagrant fouls will even be awarded some sort of credit, if done with panache, if the ref in the ring doesn't warn. I've seen a lot of questionable back of the calf trips that can be done with flourish, and in fact one female gym in Chiang Mai regularly does them in fights. I think to pull these off you have to really dominate with them, and have style, at least outside the National Stadia. I don't watch enough National Stadia fights to see if fighters there get away with them. A notable gray area, as well, is not tripping with the inside of the foot (must be top of the foot). In training everyone uses the inside of the foot because it's not painful to you or your partner. I imagine that there are more than a few inside of the foot trips in fights, simply out of habit. One element of the flair that Thais have learned to use is that the flair really takes these kind of moves, stylistically, away from the aesthetics of Judo, so it could be that that sense of style helps blur the line.

Actually been wondering about this for a while and didn't know how to ask it. Training in Europe, partners and coaches would get WAY more pissy, anal and chastisey over clinch takedowns that were greyish areas, but during time in Bangkok it was way more commonplace and done with laughing and joking around... like, if it's done smooth and quick enough and nobody saw how, and the ref didn't see, then it's all cool. To be honest...kinda liked that approach. Or maybe it was just these Thai boys messing with me and I didn't have the language to ask what was legal and what wasn't. Actually never asked questions or even spoke much at all for months. But one that stuck in the mind? Kinda similar to a wrestler's knee tap. Actually incredibly similar. Even done to me with an underhook on one side, and with his other arm the hand drops down to just rest on the back of the knee cap on the opposite side to the shoulder being underhooked. That shoulder raised up slightly with the underhook and his momentum forward to complete the takedown. So... letter of the law, is that within the rules? If lower body attacks with the arms are out?

Could be, but some "tradtional" martial artists were literal artists, such as in the Sword and The Brush philosophy, and the warrior/poet traditions, where the refinement of the warrior included the refinement of the man, not to mention the rise of the Budo philosophy (self-cultivation) in early 20th century Japan. If it was a mis-translation it fit with many Japanese ideas about what we call martial arts.

For forum readers The Golden Kick can be seen in these two rough study video edits below, and written about by Sylvie in How to Improve Your Muay Thai Kick: