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I've stumbled on a giant idea, in fact an idea so large it touches on nearly every aspect of life, and every aspect of what make Muay Thai like no other fighting form in the world. It's also an idea that is so large writing about it proves daunting, an in fact unimaginable, as so much of it is full of the tangential (consequences), and explanation. Just taking it on feels like selecting a single hair at the end of a tiger's tail, and giving it a quiet pluck. But here's to just diving in... The Paradox of Courage - How the Poet Saves the World There is a fundamental, seemingly logically paradoxical contradiction to bravery or courage. Without fear, there is no courage. The courageous person is not someone who feels no fear. In fact fear itself can be argued to be essential to courage. Much as someone who has lost the ability to feel pain, and so might move physically and emotionally in seeming defiance of pain, a person who has no fear might appear courageous, but what we cherish about courage is very different. It's the very ability to feel it, and then overcome it in someway. The value lies in contradictions being able to persist together. This contradiction will form the essence of the heroic, in a certain line of Philosophical thinking. Walter Benjamin, a German social critic and philosopher was living through the tidal rise of World War I. He was a young man and two of his friends had committed suicide over the impending catastrophe that was about to rip European culture to shreds and end any semblance of the Old World. He was struggling with the role of the poet, what could a poet matter in the face of this terrible World conflict that was going to tear at the fabric of reality? What did the deaths of his friends even mean? He took on the examination of a poem by the German poet Holderlin, which itself was an examination of poetic courage. In fact that poem existed in several versions, one of which was titled "Courage", the other "Stupidity" (or "Timidity"). It's hard for us to imagine poets and courage placed together in the same thought construct, except in maybe the most metaphorical way. Can a poet be "brave" choosing words as men are being brave (like, really brave) in trenches while everyone around them is being cut down? But bear with him, and me, because this is about studying the nature of an art, and its importance to us. We love and value an art because it reveals things to us, important things, and it sets our course. The soldier in the trench is brave, in part, because we have stories, indeed some very artful, poetic stories that last for epochs, of bravery. Walter Benjamin took hold of what was a fundamental logical puzzle of Holderlin's version of the poem. Why did Holderlin go from "Courage" to "Stupidity" or "Timidity" (what is the meaning of this change?). What Benjamin locked onto, and of course there is debate over his interpretation because people like to debate, what he locked onto was that fundamental binary of what courage is. That one is courageous in spite of, but in a sense dependent on FEAR. And, correlate to all of that, the more fear you felt, the more courageous you could be. Note: for instance, a fighter who just walks forward, numb, feeling nothing, not even perceiving danger, as if that part of her or his brain is turned off, is not admirable. Is uninteresting. Such an imagined fighter is only interesting to the degree that we project our own fears, what we would feel if we stood there, if we create the contrast. The poet, he argued, in his most heroic (and this is a very male world, Germanic heroism) is the one what looks straight into the divine, straight into the beauty of the world, with no filter on, and is completely dumbstruck. He is immediately aware that no word he utters is of any value, cannot communicate that terrible, awful, tremendously beautiful thing that he sees, his only response is pure gibberish, imbecility, nonsense. That is the extreme condition out of which the poet's courage take seed. That is the reason Holderlin changed the title of his poem in the last version from "Courage" to "Stupidity". It's supidification. Once stupidified, the poet then courageously seeks to speak. At first he is merely babbling. He is like a baby, but he wades in, and seeks to hold onto the thing that terrifies him. He does not try to dismiss it, or nullify it. He wants to keep it, and bring it forward. He struggles with that terror, and seeks to articulate it. He wants to bridge the world of terrible beauty (the unspeakable, divine) and the articulate. Above is an essay fragment describing the way that Benjamin proposes that the poet saves the world through his submission to fear itself as a fundamental relation, embodying all the fears we have of the bounded world. Now, this might sound like a bunch of mumbo jumbo to you. Abstract words describing Germanic Philosophy far removed from the concrete things that matter. But let me suggest to you that what it is talking about is perhaps the most concrete thing in the world. Fear. When I say it is concrete, I do not mean its a "thing". It's concrete in that it is a fundamental relation. Every organism that has ever existed is built on a single grammatical plan. Attraction vs Aversion. Philosophy likes to talk about all kinds of binaries, it plays games with concepts left and right, but when you dig right down to the root of binaries you are entering the absolute fundamentals of not only human experience, but all of experience. Fear, aversion, trepidation forms the very weft our what we are. You cannot get below this fundamental pole in the binary. There is nothing more fundamental. So when Benjamin is waxing poetic about the poet and his relationship to fear, this is not just the imagination of Greeks lounging near white statues eating grapes. He is talking about the Ur-logic of all of life. And he is talking about the death of his friends, as the horrible figure of World War is about to rip through all life and culture. In the figure of the poet he is outlining the beauty of the fighter. He gives us the key to understanding why we love fighters so much - for those of us who do - and what separates out fighters from each other. What is it about fighting that invokes so much that is important? Autarchy of the Relation - What Sets Fighters Apart The Greek suffix -archy we know in words like plutarchy, patriarchy, matriarchy. It means something like "rule by". But in Greek it goes much deeper than that. Something that is ruled is really genetically founded by, in something. It goes like a mighty oak with roots that sink deep within a soil where we cannot see. Benjamin proposed phrase to describe the irreducible nature of the Poet's Heroism (and for us, the Fighter's Heroism). The Autarchy of the Relation. The thick girded oak is self-founded, self-ruled (auto+rule) out of the relationship itself. It is not founded on fear, nor on courage, but out of the relationship between the two of them. We talk a lot about overcoming fear, and sometimes imagine that fear is something that we fundamentally need to be done with. You finish it off, and them move onto the next thing (ideally), and when you struggle with fear you are somehow failing in some way. But Benjamin, in his figure of the poetic, is saying no: you bring the relationship with you. The heroic consists of the relationship itself. There is no maturing past fear. There is no growing out of fear. If you have lost touch with fear you have lost touch of the relationship. It would be like a poet who writes and is no longer terrified of Beauty. Anyone who has sparred understands this immediately. These abstract words and concepts suddenly boil down to real things. The fundamental core act of sparring is really an emotional one. Sylvie writes about this in a forum post here, if you want to take a tangent: What I want to call attention to is how even the absolute beginner in training, when she or he stands in front of someone who can possibly hurt them, or shame them, is standing right on the precipice of greatest heroic, chasm-facing dimensions of all the world. This is the same precipice that every organism that has ever beat has lived. This is the Autarchy of the Relation. Fear, and how to speak when you are dumbstruck. As fighters many learn fixed patterns of how to "speak" in sparring, and then in fighting. These are formulaic vehicles designed to take you forward when you feel fear. When you feel aversion. And trusting in these, using them to cross the divide, is much appreciated. But...using vehicles to crossover is missing what is really happening in fighting when it comes to its highest art. At its highest art, what is principal is the Relation itself. It is the presence of fear, and the willingness to submit to it, fully. The Ceasura - Poetry's Gift to Understanding Fighting Much of what we do, in fact maybe almost all of what we do, is to try and get fear (and its sister, pain) to stop. We move away from things that threaten to hurt, either physically or psychologically. Or, if we are really brave, we rush through the dangerous zone to the other side. We have all kinds of irrational "fears" (fears that we imagine if we looked at them soberly, would vanish) and if we can just get through the immediate "Stop!" we are told everything will be ok. We jump in the cold water, swim across the brook, and are refreshed on the other side. This is something that is different than the Autarchy of the Relation. At its highest art you do not rush through the fear-zone, only to find the happy ending on the other side. The happy ending is just one more version of the avoidance of fear. What you are afraid of will simply disappear. At the highest form of fighting, it does not disappear. It is preserved. It is held in a sacred binary. Note: This perhaps speaks to the western preoccupation with the knockout, and the deep dissatisfaction it has with Thai style Muay Thai which often shuns the knockout. The knockout for the west is the relief, the cessation of the fear. It's all over, nothing to fear anymore! The monster is dead. It's nothing more than the parallel of having run away so well you never have to see it again. Muay Thai in Thailand has developed a much keener sense of the preservation of the Relation, holding fear and courage together. You are not, principally, trying to END the fight, as in, end the fear, the aversion. You are standing in it, graced. Readers of David Goggins will be familiar with this. Goggins an an ultra athlete who uses his extreme training to confront and overcome his own weaknesses and fear. Not to move too far from the topic here is the Rogan interview if you don't know him: One of the most compelling things that Goggins preaches is how much he chaffs at people who work out, work hard, expose themselves to the extreme in order to be done with it. He felt he ran into this when training to be a Navy Seal. He felt many of the men were "tough guys" who walked around with the badge of their official mark, having gotten to the other side. Goggin's motto was "always back to square one". For him he was always returning to exactly how he felt when he lifted his first weight, ran his first mile. This is the very same horror that Benjamin through Holderlin was talking about. Just because you run ultras doesn't mean that when you wake up at 5 am to run you don't feel horror. In fact, for Goggins, you put those shoes on in order to feel horror. That's the Autarchy of the Relation, remaining in touch with the core binary of fear and courage. Now, let me take a further detour into the poetic to explain one of the most beautiful things about fighting, and give key into how to watch and appreciate fights. The caesura. The caesura is a gap, a break in a metrically line of poetry. It's used in various ways across human history, but it always has the impact of placing an empty spot, a null value, within a larger economy of expression. Here are famous uses of caesura from the history of literature (from wikipedia): The opening line of the Iliad: μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ || Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος ("Sing, o goddess || the rage of Achilles, the son of Peleus.") Opening line of Virgil's Aeneid: Arma virumque cano || Troiae qui primus ab oris (Of arms and the man, I sing. || Who first from the shores of Troy...) The opening line of Beowulf reads: Hwæt! We Gardena || in gear-dagum, þeodcyninga, || þrym gefrunon, hu ða æþelingas || ellen fremedon. (Behold! The Spear-Danes in days gone by,) (and the kings who ruled them had courage and greatness,) (We have heard of these princes' heroic campaigns.) There is great nuance to how caesura are used, but for us its enough to just appreciate how it is always a gap, always a silence, a breath. Holderlin argued that this gap, this break - not only in lines, but in dramatic structures - had the potential to signify the fundamental relationship between fear and courage itself. Benjamin's Autarchy of The Relation is signified by the caesura. It's the moment when in the film-strip of representations (frames which each "show" some event), there comes a frame which shows representation itself, which is just a weird, fancy way of saying "I'm speechless", or "representation isn't sufficient". Pictures won't do. This is the dumbness of the poet before the beauty and tragedy of the world. It's a single piece of emptiness in the presentation. Now this is where it gets really fascinating. And how we come down off of those ivory towers of the poetic and narrotology, and into the nitty-gritty of the things that motherfucking matter to all of us in this world. The caesura, the gap, is the gap that exists between fighters. It's the space that sits there and is unresolved. It's the bubble that is invisible that generates the entire theatre of conflict. It's what generates the heroic and the poetic, and its what makes fighting, when it is at its highest, one of the great art forms of the world. We are dealing with the very fabric and Ur-source of all relations, of every single thing you and I do in the world. Every word we say, every gesture we make. When I say that that space between fighters is the caesura, I'm not being metaphorical, at least to the degree that they perform the same thing. They invoke and instantiate the Autarchy of the Relation. The reason for this is that each fighter feels fear in relationship to this gap, this space. We think of a fighter maybe fearing another fighter, but fundamentally they are fearing the space itself. As organisms our virtuality, the way that we experience space, project ourselves into the material world, represent and orient ourselves is through both fear and spatial compassry. We are negotiating the caesura in front of us in all things. And in the art (and sport) of fighting this is not only literalized (the performance involves a real space) it is performed by agents, by actors, onto which we can graft ourselves. We are projected into the space and relation through the spectacle. This is the interesting, vital thing. At its highest the fighter does not seek to extinguish the fear. This would negate the relation. She/He seeks to preserve it, and act it out in terms of courage itself, to create a continuity between fear, being dumbstruck, and action (finding words). And all the things we love about fighters, each and every style of fighting and be defined by the quality of that fighter's relationship to the gap, that space sitting between fighters. How much do they stand it in, how often? Can they persist in it? Do they avoid it? Do they rush through it? And, at a deeper, more poetic sense, how do they relate to the gap in terms of their own rhythm? What metrical expression do they use to work through that gap, gauge it, negotiate it? For me, when I watch fights now, I don't even watch strikes anymore. I mean, yes, I see them, but my eye is locked onto the gap between fighters. What is the relationship between each fighter and the gap? It's the glue, the Autarchy of The Relation, which puts all the elements together. If you read poetry, it's like discovering that there was a ruling meter all along, beneath the words. Watching the Gap - Why Muay Thai Is Special Watch this fight between two young Thai fighters providing an example of what I'm referring to, the sense of fight space. watch the fight here - or if that link doesn't work, try this one (mobile) I'm presenting two fights that just fell into my feed, almost by accident, together. It's not that they are individually primary examples, but they do work to illustrate fundamental differences between the Thailand of Muay Thai and the Muay Thai (and kickboxing, and MMA, etc) of the rest of the world. If you would take 10 minutes and just watch the fight above, but in so doing, mostly just watch the gap between the fighters. Yes, the variety of strikes, the changes in tempo are beautiful, but watch the entire fight looking at the gap, the caesura. This is the fear-gap buried at the heart of all fighting arts and sport. Now watch this fight below, from ONE Championship, a version of Muay Thai that is maybe closer to kickboxing in its encouraged fighting styles (fast clinch breaks, etc) as it seeks to popularize Muay Thai to an international audience. It features a popular western fighter in Liam Harrison, and an older Thai in Rodlek. Almost all the talk about this fight was about the strikes. But watch the extremely simplified gap-relationship, when compared to even the children fighting above. The very vocabulary of relations to the gap in this second fight consists of Harrisons' safe leg-kicks (his specialty), and his kind of hold-your-breath-and-go memorized combinations through the zone (a very common western style of fighting). Rodlek on the other hand also takes a very simplified approach to the gap, he's just gradually shrinking that gap, in a kind of slow motion vice-grip, making Harrison more and more uncomfortable. It's nothing complex, Rodlek though is in positive relation with the gap. More comfortable in it, and working through the gap, almost using it as a weapon. Debates occurred as to how much "damage" Harrison did with his leg kicks, or how tough Rodlek is. But what I want you to see is far beyond this fight. Look at the differences in vocabulary between these two fights. Look at the intense variety of spatial relationships, and attempts to control, work through, live through the gap in the Thai fight, and the very simplistic march down of the One fight. These are not the same sport, not the same art. As a commercial product you can certainly see the imperative of the 2nd fighting style. It can appeal across cultures, enter into different markets. It encourages viral like fight edits that can frictionlessly slip through social media platforms. It is segmentable. Reproducible. It also grafts more easily onto the immense popularity (and visual structure of) MMA. (Think about the gap, the caesura in MMA.) But, what I'm calling attention to is that the deeper, more profound vocabulary of fear and its sister courage as found in traditional Muay Thai in Thailand, and reaching for an explanation as to why Muay Thai might be the greatest artform in the world. What is incredibly special about Thailand's Muay Thai is how it has created a value, an aesthetic of performance that maintains the Autarchy of The Relation. It has created a poetry of staying in the spaces of fear, and relating to them. And in that aesthetic and those skills it accedes to the highest endeavor of humanity, reaching up to and beyond the poetics of German Philosophy, and Ancient Greek culture itself (considered a root of all the things we think and believe as westerners). And, it presents it all, without dilution, for the common man to see, to witness. Yes, it does require some education of eyes to see, you have to learn to look at the gap between fighters, and not their strikes - I am reminded of the admonition: The music, not the words. Now look at this Golden Age fight, all time legends of the Golden Age. You can pick 100s of fights from this era, but just watch this fight looking at the gap. Karuhat takes a big lead counting Kaensak who is one of the all time greats, 2x fighter of the year. Kaensak happened to be using the low kick as an early primary weapon. Much of this fight is Karuhat defending his lead. Just look at how buttery he is in the gap. On the edge of it, in it. It's like a force field, a bubble, as Kaensak fights his way through it trying to come from behind. Kaensak was a ferocious kicker and puncher. There is some concern that the poetics of Thailand's Muay Thai are being lost, a real concern. But one can see much of what Karuhat does in the fight between the young fighters above. You can feel the same relationship to the gap, the caesura, so we have not lost the thread. What I want to call attention to is not what is better fighting than some other form of fighting, but rather to the buried meaning in fighting itself, and the secret way that is expressing something so close to our soul, all our hearts, and the urge that we must hold onto this. Fighting, at the highest, vocabulary-rich manifestation is putting into reality the things that poetry and the plastic arts, what many consider upper reaches of cultural achievement, and fashioning them out of the raw sinews, nerves and spirit of human beings. Fighters are artists of themselves, and in that way are the mid-point between the dumbstruck and the brave, what we all aspire to be. The fighter takes up in her or his real hands the substance of the thing that the painter lifts when she or he lifts the brush, the composure does when striking piano keys, in a way that transcends or at least bridges class, and radicalizes art itself, touching the chords of what makes us what we hope to be.

Parallel in evidence, when we asked Samart who would win between himself as Somrak - the two are thought to be two of the most artful fighters Thailand has ever produced, though in different eras - his response was both surprising and simple. "I'm not afraid of Somrak," he said forcefully, defiantly,..calmly. He immediately, and in the present tense, positioned himself in terms of fear. The fighter's art, at its highest, is the display of grace in the midst of fear. Fear is the material on which the sculptor's chisel falls.

When I first started training there was a big scary guy like that, and I jumped in sparring with him on my second week. He kicked me in the head three times consecutively but didn't hurt me once. Was a cool dude. One time we had a guy who was pretty alright at fighting come in, and he was roughing up the newbies, and the big scary guy kicked the shit out of him for it.

I would have someone check your form on the inflamed side (boxing hook & MT hook can be different, plus have someone check the height of your elbow/angle of it on that punch). I’ve had assorted injuries that have been corrected through better technique. Others, such as a year or so of inflamed wrist tendons, simply improved as my bones & muscle hardened & tempered around them. But maybe you are past that. Ice! Copper bracelets! Voodoo! I hate injuries. Good luck .

9 outve 10 times this is dead on. Ive rarely been injured by a heavier partner but the smaller more aggressive guys can do damage almost by accident.

When the trainer says, OK sparring, find a partner. You pick the biggest, scariest looking meathead in the room, like 30kg heavier than you. 8/10 times he will be the most controlled, nicest and friendliest person there and you won't get injured. It's the little guy with a ying yang tattoo who has problems with over-aggression in sparring.

I have been training allot both boxing and thaiboxing almost everyday about 1.5-3.5 hours a day and of course having a resting day. But even having/bought item that reduce/preventing huge strain on my elbow I'm starting slowly get tennis elbow and it starting to hurt. So how do you guys prevent that beside stretching?. Sins people have been training like hell and mostly dont have any strain problem on tendon like ankle or knee?.

Sometimes it can just be repetitive stress on muscles and tendons unused to the strain. The thing that worked for me better than anything else was massage. I had tennis elbow and couldnt hold pads it was so bad. Had a small tear that had healed but left acar tissue. I had to massage and break up the scar tissue to get blood flow into the area to heal. It was almost like magic after about 6 months of no relief even with braces on. Deep tissue and circular motions to really break it up. Otherwise what Kevin said. Check how you do things to see if there are possible corrections to be made there.

Thaismai, Boon, or Super Export Shop are all great. I prefer Boon for gear (for both quality and price), and Thaismai will make custom shorts for a good price (around 700 baht) Skip Actionzone these days imo. Edit: I should have mentioned that I would go to Boon for personal gear, and Super Export Shop for training equipment. Super Export Shop has a lot of Fairtex gear for really good prices and will carry several different models of Thai Pads and Belly Pads.

We use Vegas Pro 16 which is pretty comprehensive. They have non-pro versions which are just fine too. For me the workflow was pretty easy to learn. You just drag clips into a timeline and do stuff to them, then render it all. Aside from a big Windows purchase I strongly, strongly recommend Kinemaster for the mobile phone << that's the android link, there is an iOS version as well. Hands down this is the best designed app of any sort I've ever encountered. Sylvie learned how to use it in 5 minutes, and it's so intuitive that she now edits short videos on it for sheer enjoyment. I think there is a free version of it, not sure. But...it would be a great training ground for any desktop version of an editing software, or at least for Vegas 16. It's the same basic interface.

I feel you! I have to write this way, otherwise I just would never write. Every thought stream would require a book. I do apologize though, it is in a way inconsiderate to the reader. It's my vast compromise, just so I can get the sketch out, in a way to propel another thought, or give a wispy gust of wind to another person's mental sail, if I can put it like that! Something to move everything along. I totally thank you for that effort! That's a very interesting analogy! Some of my understanding on this comes from Sylvie's experiences in Vipassana Meditation, her first dive into it is here. What differed in the Vipassana approach was that tranquility or calmness of mind was not the goal of the practice. It was simply building the skills to perceive how everything the body does is a move away from suffering or discomfort. And this awareness seems to lead to a certain understanding that there is no end to suffering, or discomfort. Pleasures, like the one you describe as a contrast, are kinds of distractions from a fundamental "existence is suffering" realization. Sylvie in a similar vein described a realization she had when her arjan was really pounding the sak yant needle into her skin on one of the most painful stretches. She was really mentally breaking. She realized that if she just kept waiting for the needle to stop, she would break. She had to get to the place where she just accepted: This will never end. She is convinced that this was the arjan's lesson. He purposively was pushing her. So, my theories about the caesura, the fear gap, and the art of fighting being the relationship to that gap, that mental suffering, are really informed by Sylvie's report on Vipassana, and from her sak yant trail, the value of staying IN something, and not trying to get out. This is maybe a little different than the yoga teacher's lesson, but perhaps related. This is the beautiful thing about the art of fighting to me, and in this essay maybe what I hoped to reach for. German philosophers and poets may very well have wrestled with these concepts, but fighters live them. Even the beginner in a Muay Thai class, sparring for the first time, grasping for the tools that are supposed to save him or her, feeling the fear, is living them. Performing them. It's beautiful to see how mundane (earthbound) and how heavenly the ambition is. Yes! Endure and manage the uncertainty, so well honed and said.

It always takes a while for me to get through your texts. There are many expressions used you leave undefined. And many references (although I speak German fluently 555) I'm not familiar with and I have to ask myself whether this is an English word I don't know or another reference I'm not familiar with(555×2). This text I read backwards and then uh the normal way (forward?). And it was so worth the effort. I can somewhat grasp it, the space, the dramatic pause and how well the fighters can endure it and manage it. Maybe I'm interpreting what you wrote differently than how it was intended, but it reminds me of a yoga teacher I had some years back. Who would keep us in poses forever encouraging us to feel and fully embrace the discomfort and later in shavasana repeating how we now are comfortable, we feel pleasure ONLY because "there was discomfort before and without discomfort there can be no pleasure. Everything is two. They come together. Except yoga. Yoga is one" (imagine an Indian accent). Obviously you can understand this intellectually, but feeling the contrast between discomfort and pleasure and resisting the urge to run away from the discomfort makes you understand it in a different way. And to me this how I can see great fighters (after having read this). Not only the unreal body control and fluidity. But who can endure and manage the uncertainty + extreme discomfort (=fear) caused by what you call the gap.

Corollary 1: This argument also provides a framework for understanding why any striking art (entertainment form, sport) that does not include grappling is at deficit. The reason for this is that if there is no grappling amid striking it encourages hold-your-breath-ism, which means when faced with the gap, the fear, you can just grit your teeth and throw your combo. Get to the other side of the gap and be "safe". You see this all the time in various kickboxing timeouts and ref breaks. The relationship to the gap is just two people holding their breath and jumping over it, to "safe" (the cessation of fear). This is related to aggressive attacks that Jack Slack humorously has called "Karate, karate, karate!". I'm over-simplifying it, and this certainly isn't the intention of for instance kickboxing rules that are imagined to unleash "pure action", but it is what evolves when proximity has no consequence and produces a "timeout". It could be argued that one of the hidden reasons why MMA has thrived in terms of entertainment is that it produces a richer sense of distance and danger. MMA fighters have an inordinate fear of the gap, by and large, but some of this is because they can't just jump through the space and call a time out on the other side. By privileging grappling MMA gives the fighter no safe space, they are forced to more or less continually deal with fear (at least when standing up). Striking arts that remove all or most of grappling are seriously compromising the very logic of the caesura. There is no safe space. Boxing makes an interesting example in this, in that because it's a highly developed artform evolved through decades and decades of full contact fighting, and the spatial skill levels are as high as those shown in the classic Muay Thai of Thailand, it rivals Muay Thai in terms of the metaphysics of the caesura, the work in fear. True, there is no explicit grappling in western boxing, but infighting, clinch and dirty boxing up close are art-forms within the ruleset. And, all the proximate spaces are fraught with difficulty. You cannot box effectively by just holding your breath and throwing combinations, and waiting for the clinch break. I also suspect that the reason why so many top level Muay Thai fighters transitioned to western boxing and had great success there wasn't so much because of their "hands" (individual skills), but because of their fundamental spatial awareness, the priority of the relationship to the fear gap. Not needing to grab the side of the pool, the ability to tread water and engage for extended periods in space.

My advice would be lower the intensity of your training.

I think what is really required is a kind of journalistic attention to the fighters and the community. This is part of where we are headed.

Does the building of profiles and online material (training, fight and interview videos) play a role in Thailand as much as internationally? You all have the best test case of course. I am wondering if more studies of young female fighters would build excitement the same way (I know Sylvie has profiled many fighters and your "Great 8" is a perfect educational tool for me as a Western fan; just curious how it works there).

I would be more than pleased to help in any way I could be useful!

Maybe you can work with us if this starts to get rolling. I'm looking to build a team of maybe 4 people to organize the larger-reaching, structural aspects of the changes we are hoping to bring. Sounds like you are simpatico with a lot of what this is about.

I agree. Which I off topic think is so fascinating as it stands in stark contrast to how muay thai is taught/learnt in Thailand (referring to your thread discussing the western preferred structural approach to learning). The Asian region has some of the smartest people in the world, yet China for example is in need of engineers from the west and international companies in India hire graphic designers from the west, both these phenomenons because although a craft or profession can be mastered perfectly, the creative problem-solving aspect and holistic approach are many times not there. Perhaps due to more authoritarian teaching systems in school. (really not trying to be offensive here). Anyhow drifting off. Eager to hear more about this as it progresses, I think it sounds really awesome.

The nice thing about the approach we have in mind is that it really isn't audience dependent. It would simply be a matter of putting on a show, 12x a year, and making impact on the Muay Thai scene through fight bonuses. The material support for such shows already exist, female fights happen every every night of the week in Chiang Mai, often at multiple stadia. The ecosystem for the shows is there and thriving. So while involvement and even enthusiasm from people not in the community, whether broadly from across Thailand, and internationally definitely helps, or would be an aim, there is no risk in not having it. The promotion is it's own little box of events and influences. It's part of a larger care system for the already existing female fight scene in the city. Sponsors, or ideally "a" sponsor, would be investing in that system, that community, as a mode of branding. It has a "can't fail" aspect, especially since the buy-in would be so low. Most promotional efforts in Thailand are very short-sighted, people are thinking "How can I make money?!" instead of "How can I change and improve the entire thing?" For that reason they are often imagining: How do I make it bigger?! Which ends up with it being not very big, ironically enough.

There is great emphasis, in Muay Thai promotion, on the westerner vs Thai match up. It is a kind of commercial "must do". This promotion really isn't designed to go that way. Which isn't to say that there would be zero westerners, Sylvie would probably be on these cards because we'd have to be there anyway helping produce the shows, but the emphasis or point of them would not be westerners vs Thais. It really is about getting the most Thais the most opportunity, and impacting the community over time. That means most of the match ups, in fact almost all of them, would be Thai vs Thai. Thank you for your co-thinking on this. The more minds on concert, the more likely change like this is possible!

I wrote in some depth about this here, on Patreon: The Fight Card to Change All Fight Cards | Thailand We actually put this card on and it was incredible. The card was a test-run proof-of-concept for a promotion that would run for a year, monthly. It isn't designed so much for exposure as the main goal, but that would eventually be the result. It is about raising the level of Muay Thai for a giant, already engaged community of female fighters, the biggest in the world. Traditionally it was a sidebet scene that drove the elite level of female fighting, like those produced in the original post in the original post of this thread. This is about creating a systemic supplementation to that process, especially in need because that process seems to be weakening. There is an important adjacent series of plans that go along with the promotion that I believe would lift the entire project to a completely different level, and have impact possibly across the globe, but I won't go into those here. In Thailand money speaks. Honestly, if we had the money right now it would already be happening. Once we set the tone and started the process lots of stake holders would buy in very quickly. We have great contacts in this area. For the more comprehensive approach - and I'm really holding on for the more comprehensive idea - there would require more (wider) stakeholder involvement, Thais can be factional and competitive in a community or commercial space, and part of this would be about resolving that, and letting benefits flow to differing stakeholders. I don't think this will be a challenge. We have good relations with possible regulatory bodies. It isn't a problem. The investment issue is simply one of vision. Nobody is thinking on this scale, this ecologically. It's so much a resistance, as there just not being pattern of this kind of investment and planning. The plan is incredible, but it honestly is about getting it to the right ears. Yes, there is a lot of "superstar" thinking in Thailand. This is really about taking care of and feeding an entire community of Muay Thai development, not finding a superstar. It's a rising tide approach. But, genuinely, if you raised the tide of the largest female fighting community in the world, you would end up producing superstars with international opportunity.

I'm following this with interest. So your aim is to create financial incentives in Thailand for gyms to invest in female fighters? And your strategy would be a fight promotion that a)involves prize money and b) gives these fighters exposure? Who do you need to convince here? Companies/sponsors who see the potential? Or the current stakeholders in the fight scene? Is there a regulatory body that needs to get involved as well? Meaning the pushback or reluctance to invest in female fighters, where does it stem from in your view? Traditions? Limited opportunities? Rules and regulations? I feel that Thai people are always supportive of things that make them internationally recognized, that if a thai athlete gets fame overseas they welcome him/her with open arms. So having a thai female superstar fighter abroad might change things at home? (...like Stamp). Imagine a female Buakaw I mean.. Also what about int muay thai federation? Do they have any driving power in Thailand?

Heading to Bangkok in July for the IFMAs with my son and looking to buy gloves, shinguards, shorts etc. Looking for recommendations Thanks in advance Brian

Thanks Tyler, great info. I'll look into Super export shop as well

Here, to give a worthy example of differences in capacity to relate to the gap between fighters, Glory 59 Robin van Roosmalen vs Petchpanomrung. Just watch this fight looking at the gap, the space between fighters, and how each fighter deals with, relates to the space. You can see the "hold your breath and go" tactics of Roosmalen. To be fair to him, this is just the kind of fighting that Glory type rules encourage. With the absence of any kind of grappling there is no penalty for just rushing through the space with a combo. Nonetheless, Petchpanomrung is just living in a different vocabulary and awareness of the gap between them. This comes from the core of Muay Thai, and he can use that spatial knowledge despite primary weapons removed by the rules. One might say, but Roosmalen is a stalking fighter, he's just pressing the space. Having watched the above fight (conditioned by the rules of Glory, and the nature of contemporary kickboxing) now watch the Ray Robinson vs Rocky Graziano World Middle Weight boxing championship. I know it's a different sport, but just watch this fight (below) only looking at the gap. And don't watch Robinson (who is an absolute artist and who some consider the greatest ever), watch Graziano, a stalking power-punching fighter. Watch his relationship to the gap. And compare it to the rudimentary fighting of Roosmalen. I'm speaking only of the relationship to the fighting space, using this as a (possible) fundamental vector of fight comparison. We have in these two fights two illuminating illustrations. In the first you can compare two fighters to each other, the way they both navigate the shared fight space. And, between the two fights you can compare how two stalking power fighters (Roosmalen vs Graziano) each relate to the fighting space. Yes, they are very different sports...but I'm proposing a metaphysical judgement, something that crosses eras and rule sets. It's still an aesthetic judgement, but a judgement along a particular, argued-for criteria. Even if trying to be fair to Roosmalen, for the limits of his vocabulary and tactics, at the very least we could argue that kickboxing rules if nothing else produce this kind of fighting, this kind of relationship to the gap. Prospectively: If my metaphysics are right, or at least productive, we should have a register by which to measure the value of differing combat sports and fighting arts, and also to compare and weigh eras, and fighters to each other.

The stronger the army! The team I'm looking to build is specifically people in Thailand. There are things I really want to do here, in this space. Maybe 4 people strong. But the more ancillary support the better to be sure.

You’re not inviting me & I’m not looking for an invite but I’d like very much to follow along, help if I can as an auxiliary outsider

Thanks Kevin, some great information here. Thaismai is the one I remember reading about. Were are located in the Bang Kapi district training at the sasiprapa gym first week then over to the national stadium for the tournament. Goingvto check out the best way to get over there and find that shop. Sound ideal. Thanks for the advise Regards Brian

Thaismai - map link - There is the Thaismai shop that Sylvie visited a few years ago : and then again, last year: Thaismai is a super old brand, I've seen photos of lumpinee fights from the 1960s with their logo, and they have pretty nice equipment. I'm don't train much, my job is mostly just being Sylvie's husband, but I love the gloves I bought there. It's well designed, not expensive equipment. Also, it's the only place I know of to buy the 123 Greatest Muay Thai fighters of Thailand book: which is pretty cool. Worth a visit. Boon Sport - map link - There is also the Boon shop, which is all Boon. Looks like this: Boon is owned by Scott Marr, a westerner who really devoted himself to top quality Thai made equipment, and it's built a reputation of equipment, long lasting gear. Some people really swear by Boon, and use nothing else. Andy Thomson, a trainer in Thailand for 20+ years, who recently passed, was very into his Boon mitts and Belly pads. They don't cut corners. They also have some nice micro-mitts that you can't find anywhere, Scott designed them himself. We bought a pair as a gift for Chatchai Sasakul, one of the great boxing trainers in Thailand, who wanted a pair. Actionzone map link - Actionzone we haven't been to, but this is the most often mentioned shop for equipment in Bangkok that I've seen. It seems like it's what most people have in mind when they imagine walking around and picking from various brands.

Thanks a lot for this elaboration. It sounds extremely exciting and I hope you get the right ears to talk to. I assume this would also involve non-thai female fighters fighting in Thailand? From my personal experience in the bangkok fitness community, there seems to be a lot of excitement for female strength and women starting to like the idea of having a muscular body beyond ab definition. that in combination with muay thai fitness being popular among the thai middle and upper classes might be helpful driving factors. From an international perspective I think the issues of sexism, the bottom rope, women not being able to fight at national stadiums combined with the child labour issue might be problematic. But that might not matter in this case anyway.

Looks like Lommanee may be moving from the inactive to the active list. Super talent, but this is maybe the first full rules Muay Thai fight she's fought against top talent in over 5 years. With everything like this I'm still guessing this fight has a 50/50 chance of actually happening, but if it does it is a marvelous match up. The world of female Muay Thai needs Lommanee fighting.

I love how your juxtaposition of different fighters’ craft is shared from first hand observation. I sense the awe and appreciation for each fighter's “chosen” style of preservation (for example, Samson v Karuhat). Especially given the mission - “Preserve the Legacy,” I think it is special to tap into individual modes of preservation bc each legend’s relationship to the art is absorbed and “shelved” differently in their mind and muscle memory. Thank you for this angle in the forum!

Ill add that it might be good to find a partner of the same level both mentally and physically as you. If youre not hyper aggressive then sparring with one who is might be more of a challenge than you can handle right now. What Sylvie said about footwork and being able to see is dead on. Maybe find a partner you can do some live drills with before sparring. Drill mobing outve the way footwork at a slower speed to get the timing down then speed it up. Practice being at your optimal range instead of stuck inside where you have to shell. Then practice shelling and giving (shell up as partner throws a whatever number combo-2-3 then return fire). You can also spar with limitations like jab only or lead side weapons only. That helps keep things lighter and gets you to think during the exercise. The way I set up sparring is designed to create a level of comfort with it. We usually start with dutch style 3 on 3 and 4 on 4 (the shell and go type drill) to get them accustomed to the hit (make it less concerning) then we move to limited sparring like jab only, lead side etc. I start adding weapons until they are going full bore. By then theyve calmed down and they can really explore. A lot of the stress of sparring is gone. And we try and spar every class, at least twice a week. Its not for everyone but Ive had a lot of success with it especially for hobbyists. The fighters have claimed its made them less jittery before competition too.

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For me it is like this: modernity will run roughshod over and through traditions. It's just going to steamroll it all. If we who love Muay Thai aren't careful we will be like someone running out of a burning house grabbing only a few things to save. What do we want to save...because it's probably only going to be a few things that will last 20 or 30 years from now. Is what we save going to be the prohibition of women touching the ring (itself a modern invention), or is it going to be the marvelous men and techniques of an era that everyone agrees is the height of the sport. We are close to choosing the wrong thing to save. I believe women, and Thai female fighters in particular, and play instrumental roles in saving some of the most valued, most cherished parts of Muay Thai tradition. In the west we don't understand, nobody really cares or follows the reasoning of the bottom rope. Kaensak, a legend of the sport, thought Sylvie was joking when she told him to hold her mongkol in Thailand, so she could go under the bottom rope. We are saving the wrong things, and losing the important things. As to female fighting in the country, I take an ecological view. The female fighters of Thailand are the best there have ever been. It's a martial art, fighting art resource. We need to think ecologically about how to protect, and even grow that resource. If we do it can be a Ganges to female fighting all over the world.

It is going well. There are several levels to this. On one level we are just looking for sponsors for a year long monthly show. The sponsorship is important because the whole point is to infuse an already existing scene with structured financial incentive. At another level those there are more comprehensive plans that I believe can change the fate of female Muay Thai in Thailand, and possibly the world. Because we are looking for biggest impact this would require greater cooperation and just getting a few sponsors together. I have a plan that really could radically change things. At that level I think we really need a single, far visioned sponsor, rather than a handful. So I really looking for the right fit. There have been several businesses and people who have said they want to be involved, but not at the visionary level we need. So, right now we're holding out for the ideas that really might change everything. I really believe this could alter the fate of female Muay Thai, and maybe Muay Thai itself. I think this is the answer. The buy in to this would be a drop in the bucket for most advertising budgets of international brands, and the incentives huge. But getting these facts to the right ears is pretty hard to do. These are visionary ideas. Not leverage, but they are important parts of a growing narrative.

This is an offshoot of a previous thread I started, on the "light" versus "hard" sparring and how that kind of divides down the emotional line, rather than the physical power of strikes. I wanted to ask my trainer, Kru Nu, about this. He's been teaching Muay Thai for 25 years or so, grew up in a gym that had the very, very early westerners who lived and trained in Thailand, has raised countless Thai boys to be stadium fighters and champions; and has had his fair share of "what the f*** was that?" experiences of people losing their cool in sparring and things erupting into potentially dangerous situations. My impetus for asking Kru Nu about this subject was two fold: 1) the "Thai sparring is so light," refrain I hear from westerners is often one that I've failed to witness with my own 7 years' experience living in Thailand. Thais don't spar super light, at least not the way that I see it performed by the westerners who are trying to mimic what they deem to be "Thai style sparring." And 2) I've seen some pretty intense sparring under Kru Nu's supervision, where he doesn't tell people to turn it down, whereas I - and probably most coaches in the West, would have done. With very little kids, like 7 and 8 years old, when they're clinching they aren't allowed to throw knees. Kru Nu tells them explicitly, "if anyone throws a knee, it's a foul." That's so they don't hurt each other, because they don't have control of themselves yet. They're tiny, so the impact is relative to their size, but I think it's more of an emotional precaution - they don't have control of their emotions yet and so they'll knee hard and hurt each other. They're emotionally not in control, so if they get mad they don't have a stick in their hand at the same time, so to speak. Most of the time, sparring or clinching with little kids like this ends because someone's crying. They're learning how to control their emotions way more than they're learning how to do proper technique, although they do get a few pointers here and there. Mostly it's just spending time in the water, as I like to say, and learning not to cry about it being too cold or deep or whatever else. Back to adults. The teenaged Thais in my gym have mostly been training for a lot of years, so they've gone through the emotional bootcamp long before they ever get big enough to really do any damage to anybody. We have one young fighter, Maek, who is often my clinching partner, and he's new enough and young enough that he gets a little emotional sometimes. He's ignored most of the time when he gets like this, or he's teased to put him in check. But he's pretty big, 60 kilos at only 13 years old, but a little butterball so he goes with partners who he outweighs but is shorter than. So, with his weight he can do some damage, but with his size and age he's kind of not so dangerous. In contrast to this, the westerners who come to train in Thailand are mostly pretty big, compared to me and Thais. They can do damage before they have any kind of skill, or moderate skill, and they've done usually no kind of emotional formation by a culture that esteems "jai yen yen," cool heartedness. So, you've got giant babies. Yesterday, my regular sparring partner and I were told to go spar but to go "bao bao," which is Thai for gentle. I've never been instructed to go light before. The reason was that both Carabao (my sparring/clinching partner) and I have fights in a couple of days, so a clashed knee or bruised eye or ego is not on the ticket. I fight often, Carabao doesn't. So, the instruction to go light is more to do with his fight than mine, but interestingly, Kru Nu has credited Carabao's wins in the past with being my clinching partner. In clinching, nobody is ever told to "go light." Just maybe to be more careful with hitting with the inside of your thigh instead of with your kneecap. So, this sudden "go spar, but bao bao," thing got me thinking. I wanted to ask Kru Nu about how he does sparring at his gym. I told Kru Nu that westerners seem to think that sparring in Thailand is all really light. He frowned at me when I said this, like "why?" I laughed. I don't know. But then I used the example of this Indian guy, who I referenced in my other thread. He goes too hard (in my eyes) with everybody. He's not out of control, but his power is enough to do damage. In the example I gave in my last thread, he sparred with an Italian who also goes quite hard. Hard vs hard, and Kru Nu said, "they like that, so I give for them." But I reminded him of a match up that was not a syncing of likes, where one guy didn't like to go hard. A few weeks ago he was sparring with a fellow from Spain. The guy from India is cracking these leg kicks and has good boxing, so he's touching up the guy from Spain and then just bashing his leg. The guy from Spain is not super experienced, but not totally green. He does okay for a round, listens sincerely to my advice to teep with the leg that's getting kicked when I talk to him between rounds, but ultimately lays down and sparring is ended with a "TKO" late into round 2. I thought that was shitty, honestly. I asked Kru Nu (yesterday, not when this happened), why he let the sparring go like that. "Because I want the guy from Spain to understand that in a fight, if someone kicks you hard here (he chops the side of his hand into his leg), you cannot ask them to stop. And you cannot stop. He has to understand." And, as I recall, the next sparring session, Kru Nu put the guy from India with Team (Thai, stadium fighter) and he got worked, which Kru Nu had said was, "so he can understand." Keeping everyone in check. I nodded my head in understanding when I was listening to Kru Nu. It's what I was saying about hard sparring, how it teaches you that you have to figure shit out under duress. You have to know what contact feels like and how to hide your fear, your shame, your pain, but you also have to be able to not get upset yourself. If you're going to hit hard, you have to know you'll be hit hard back. Kru Nu actually pointed at me, poking my shoulder as I sat next to him on the ring for this conversation. "Sometimes Carabao kicks you too hard, I know, I see," he said. Honestly, guys, I know Kru Nu sees everything but I totally assumed he was not clocking the times that Carabao is hitting me hard. "But you don't get angry, I know you are okay. And if you want, you can show him that you kick hard too and then he understand." I know there are times I've lost my cool in sparring and clinching when I feel like I'm being hit too hard. I've been punished for that by Kru Nu before, basically by him telling me to get out of the ring and go kick the bag and he ignores me for the rest of the session. But I've also learned how to control that shit myself. With Carabao it's a bit harder, just because of his size and the relationship we have in the gym, but with Maek I've learned how to take a too-hard strike, hit him back hard as a warning shot, and then use the next shot as an immediate comparison (much lighter), to let him choose which kind of strike he wants. You hit me hard, I hit you hard, but we can always go back to this. And know what? He always tones it back down. No words spoken. No looks. No complaints. No calling "dad" over, and the escalation in emotion is super short. But I wouldn't know how to do that if I'd never been hit too hard in sparring; if I'd never been overwhelmed and wanted to cry. When Kru Nu lets these big Western dudes bash on each other, he's giving them the same lessons that led me to where I am now, but on a much shorter timeline. These two go hard, they go hard together. This guy goes hard with someone who doesn't reciprocate and he doesn't read the temperature, make him go with someone who will touch him right back (Team) and then some to keep him in check. It reminds me of the Cesar Milan approach to reconditioning aggressive dogs: put them in with the pack and a natural order will shake out, pretty quickly. I remember taking our dog Zoa to a dog park in New York and she was growling and nipping at some dogs who came to sniff her. I immediately thought to go control her and Kevin told me to wait, let it sort itself out. Sure enough, within 3 minutes the group had figured itself out and Zoa was playing chase with a dog she'd just been ready to fight with. You can't control everything. And if everything is always controlled for you, you never learn to control yourself.

Yes, the way he's always watching. Kevin took those. Kru Nu is very handsome but hard to photograph, haha. This is what he looks like when I take his photo:

Fighting up a weight class or two vs the Northern Champion Nong Benz Sakchatree, in Chiangrai, Thailand My Post Fight Vlog

Don't be shy to just play around with stuff. Clinching in my opinion is about feeling and being relaxed in what you're doing. I personally enjoy it but a lot of people don't because they don't understand the nuances of it. So just give it a go with your mate.

This is a really interesting post. I will say that as an admin here the forum isn't the place for politically minded arguments (including politics in the Muay Thai world), we are trying to build a non-argumentative, informing space that celebrates Muay Thai, broadly. But your post does raise interesting larger questions, and the photographs are very cool. The most important and perhaps relevant question is What is Authentic Muay Thai? Yes, there were TKD roots to the introduction of Muay Thai into England, but this was literally multiple decades ago. TKD was an international sensation at the time, and many Thais were drawn to the art. But...there is no denying that both Master Woody and Master Toddy have dedicated their lives to Muay Thai, not only as businessmen, but as ambassadors, translators of the sport and art, and as teachers. Neither was a fighter as far as I know, but many, many worthy instructors and teachers were not fighters, or were only fighters of meager careers. Muay Thai, as it has washed over the shores of other countries relied on the promulgation of these kinds of men, capturing, celebrating, forwarding the art and sport, appealing to the trends in fighting sports as they were in the countries Muay Thai landed in. There was a time when I took umbrage at just who was calling themselves "Master", but I've come to realize that Master is a kind of term of Muay Thai business when Muay Thai entered in the west, encountering a context of Traditional Martial arts. I think there can be no doubt though that both of these men have been powerful forces in the internationalization of Muay Thai. And yes, this is Muay Thai. I know much less about Master Woody's career and business, but Master Toddy has been perhaps the most influential figure in the forwarding of female Muay Thai in the west (and concordantly, through influence, in Thailand as well). Just the sweep of each of their careers cement them as pillars in the modern Muay Thai story. Now, is their part "real" Muay Thai? I think it is wrong to suggest that because they had TKD in their background they do not, or have not represented and furthered Muay Thai. I can say, just in terms of legitimacy, when you enter a gym in Thailand, it's the quality of the pad holders that pretty much determines the substance of the Muay Thai that emerges from that gym, and both of these men (I presume, I've been in Master Toddy's gym multiple times) carry pad men who handle students more than capably. Real, fight-oriented Muay Thai. There are interesting issues of authenticity of taught style. Master Toddy, having literally decades of instructing westerners, has developed a philosophy on how westerners can beat Thai style fighting. He has developed teaching methods that are unique and principles that emphasize certain skills and traits. Everything that I've seen from him (a few visits) was not only very interesting, but it was well within the cannon of Muay Thai proper, as far as I could tell. I think people make the mistake of imagining that Muay Thai is a narrow fighting sport, when in fact it is filled with technique and teaching variety, and it has been absorbing influences from different martial arts since its modern inception when it was taught to cadets beside Judo at Suan Kulap College in the early 1900s. Since that time there is no "pure" Muay Thai, in fact it has long negotiated its nature under the early influence of Judo and then western boxing. Just the other day we were with Rambaa Somdet, and he was teaching Sylvie a Karate/TKD style side kick, and a Judo influenced throw. All that mattered was "this will work". The more we expose ourselves to the great teachers of Thailand the more we are struck by how much variety of technique and influence there is in the art. And I will definitely say that I'd love to film with Master Toddy to archive his influence, his philosophy, his teaching method. It has been born from decades of ushering westerners toward fighting in Thailand. How could this not be Muay Thai. You also make a very discuss-able point about the Muay Boran outfits that are popularized over the last few years. I think people have to come to realize that "Muay Boran" has been a construction ever since it's beginning. Here's a summation of the origin of the Boran styles: This act of ordination basically made up Muay Boran by classifying it. It was part of a larger political move that involved taking Muay Thai (Boran) out of the transmission hands of the diverse temples were it was taught, and formalizing it into centers of teaching. From its very beginning it was a constructed (made up, to some degree) thing. And from that time very, very little of what was known, taught and fought with (from those schools of lineage) survives at all. You may have Kru Lek who has been teaching Muay Chaiya in Bangkok, devoting his life to that style, or General Tunwakom, who has devoted himself to Muay Lertrit, but these are very thin connections to the actual knowledge and styles of those days. The entire memory of Muay Boran is fragmented. So, does this mean that it should just be forgotten? No. Instead it has in the recent years been formalized. There have been efforts to catelogue and archive what is still known. And it has been commercialized to some degree. The fabrication of the uniforms is based on traditional dress as far as I can tell, as it has survived in elements. This is a call back to a distant past. The combination of an evoked past and commerce is very Thai. You have a huge resergence of Ayutthya recollection (and dress wear) in Thailand now. In many respects the past is always ideologically (and commercially) reconstructed. This is no different. The interest from westerners in these vast invocations of Muay Thai history helps preserve that history, or that sense of respect that gives Muay Thai an individuality. Is it immune from criticism? But what is really going on here is a recollection and celebration that at least in some ways might help preserve the remaining fragments of a heritage that is otherwise threatened. The bottom line really is that there is no simple "center point" of authenticity from which to critique all other forms of Muay Thai. The entire thing is constructed and shot through with financial interests. It's wrong to remove Master Toddy and Master Woody from the Pantheon of major figures who have forwarded the art. In the end we are all carrying with us our little ember from the fire that only we can hold, helping it toward the future. Note: If this post is part of an organized, and persistent character attack on any of the men mentioned in the OP, and not the beginning of a discussion, the post will be deleted. I'm hoping that instead deeper ideas can be discussed. Note 2: The original post above has been significantly edited, as if in response to what I had written, to now include Master Sken, and other descriptions. It is now locked.