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Both #6 (Wangchannoi) and #2 (Dieselnoi) defeated #1 (Samart). And Dieselnoi defeated Pudpadnoi as well, although both Pudpadnoi and Apidej are tricky because they're a generation (or 2) away from the bulk of the list, just a different era. I understand why Somrak is there, but he doesn't really belong on the list among those he shares the ranks with, just in terms of what his true accomplishments were as the first Gold Medalist in Boxing for Thailand. Says me, anyway. Kevin loves these kinds of lists, I don't, so it's not something I can elaborately defend in terms of who I think should be on this list or why I think the order isn't right. I think the folly is in thinking that any of these lists are definitive, rather than that a person who chooses to make a "Top Ten" has their own reasons for that list and that order and, like Kevin said, open a discussion to how the pieces could have been laid out otherwise. I'd have put Wichannoi, Karuhat, and Burklerk on there.

I have been to Charnchai two times; for 6 weeks and 6 months. It has a very friendly atmosphere, and a very physically intense training program even for the non-fighting/casual falangs. Mr Bee (the owner) personally helps even the beginners with their technique for standing, throwing kicks etc... They have numerous active Thai's at the gym who train and hold pads, fight in local stadiums and festivals. Nice place to run (lots of mountains and rivers around), good training and can organise fights ranging from local low-level fights to televised shows in Bangkok and in the big Bangkok stadiums. They are extremely accommodating of women, both Thai and foreign, and the women I train alongside have noted that it is significantly better to other gyms they have trained at with regards to how seriously the trainers put effort into your technique and how well they treat you. Hope this helps :)

Its cool to argue - or even better, discuss - these kinds of lists, because it causes us to put things into larger context. But we have to really keep in mind that we are just more or less just making things up as westerners. Even Samart, who is widely embraced by westerners as the GOAT has very few fights on video to watch.. There are fights with yodmuay never even seen, and then rematches with the same, also unseen. These are histories that are more or less profoundly lost, even for the most embraced of fighters, let alone those that have nothing preserved on YouTube or by oral memory. Even the sudden rediscovery of the tape of Samart vs Dieselnoi in 1982 recasts the discussion in a very different light, and that is just one fight of 100s if not 1000s, otherwise unseen. That being said, a pretty cool list in that it captures great fighters across generations (though it might have been awesome to see Suk "The Giant Ghost" in there, though none of us have seen him fight). The dude terrified opponents for 4 decades by most reports. And Dieselnoi's vote for the GOAT Wichannoi does not make the list, though Apidej at #3 maybe is the strong nod to the era. Other quibbles would be that Somrak is ahead of his JockGym mate Saenchai, likely for his success in Olympic Boxing, which seems pretty strange. Somrak, what a fighter, but it's really unclear how great in that his opportunities were curtailed. I will say that it is really cool to see Wangchannoi so high up. He feels like a fighter who is a fighter's fighter.

The list from the article, in case you don't recognize someone. 1. Samart 2. Dieselnoi 3. Apidej 4. Somrak 5. Saenchai 6. Wangchannoi 7. Kaensak 8. Namkabuan 9. Pudpadnoi 10. Namsaknoi

Cool to look at. Two useless arms. Conor has a basic Thai clinch position. Arm loop + inside frame. Cerrone exerts no control or pressure over either arm, especially on the shoulder strike side. This lazy over position on the frame drives me crazy. Happens all the time. What's beautiful about this is how Conor is giving ground, which really sets it all up. Backwards movement in clinch is key to so many dominant movements. watch the slow motion of the strikes here: https://web.facebook.com/watch/?v=2852823818097683 This is a pretty fascinating strike in that it's set up by a general grinding forward, and the lack of pressure or control, but also because it develops from a very common position in Muay Thai, so much so it would be pretty easy to get lazy about it. No Thai would just grind forward like that in the clinch, which is a pretty big factor here, but they very well might not dig their head in deep enough, like Cerrone, to control the shoulder and collar bone, or not snake in hard enough from the top arm position. Because Thais clinch train in very lengthy sessions habits and position assumptions do develop - and I find these unconscious shapes pretty interesting. Though shoulder strikes are perfectly legal in Thailand's Muay Thai, they really are almost never seen, likely due to evolving aesthetics, and maybe a sense of sportsmanship. In short, this is a kind of a "hole" in the form of Thai clinch, I suspect. Proper technique probably closes the hole pretty firmly, but proper,. or optimized technique is not always happening, or even trained. From this position Cerrone, in Muay Thai, would be most concerned with the elbow. The shoulder isn't even thought about. It's a blindspot. Blindspots happen in fighting styles and disciplines, shaped by rulesets, cultural aesthetics, and training practices. The shoulder is actually a hidden appendage and leverage point in lots of high-level Thai clinch technique, but it's not thought of as a direct weapon. I imagine that it would likely be seen as "base", perhaps in the way that Yodkhupon's amazing high volume elbow fighting style was looked down upon, despite winning at the highest level (simultaneous stadium belts in the Golden Age). I personally find this strike really interesting because the McGregor position is a dominant one that Sylvie works herself toward and secures in lots of fights. She loops that right arm hard, and is always exploring developments from there. This is a Dieselnoi position. Most often it's considered better to control the neck with the left arm, and work towards knees and turns, but this frame up exposing the open side, pinning it open is definitely an active position. So much of this strike is dependent on Cerrone grinding forward, allowing McGregor to bounce back and load. But it does seem that the shoulder strike is a perfect fit in the vocabulary from this position, even if under neutral pressure. There is a lot to be developed here. Even as a threat (as a miss), it can get the opponent to posture up too high, and set up knees or a deep turn.

https://pepperrr.net/th/articles/3049 It's great to see a top 10 list in Thai and not English. There is the slight issue that #2 beat #1 pretty definitively, now that we have the video it makes the victory less abstract. You can see the just impact of Dieselnoi's unrelenting force and technique on the fighter everyone holds as the King of smooth.

Agreed Agreed! I've never seen him mentioned on any other 'best of all times' lists that are out there, which is bizarre when you look at his achievements: 5 Lumpinee belts, Fighter of the Year 1993. Just make it a top 15

Boonlai vs Somrak (1991). This is just an incredible fight, and I wonder what the story is behind it. Somrak who would gain world fame for winning Olympic Gold in Boxing for Thailand in 1996, is fighting the great Boonlai, known for his kicking, and very nice hands, seemingly does so refusing to punch. Somrak is about a year away from representing Thailand in the 1992 Olympic games in boxing at this point, but in the footage we have of this fight he almost completely takes his hands away. Before the 5th round I count only a soft 1-2 setting up a kick, a defensive 2 crosses when his kick is caught, and another pair of punches. One definitely get the strong sense he simply is taking his hands off-line. Then, with a huge lead in the 5th he just jabs repeatedly in retreat, as if saying: I could have just beat you with my jab if I had wanted to. Instead we get a gorgeous display of checks, teeps, counterkicks and open-side knees. Maybe something personal? Maybe a statement fight to the community, but Boonlai was no joke of an opponent. You see a fighter like Saenchai toying with very underskilled westerners, and people are wowed, this is Boonlai. It should be said that the fight was at 126, which was maybe a weight class up for Boonlai (he was 122 lb Lumpinee champion), which maybe adds a little more to Somrak's confidence in space, but it still is an amazing fight to watch. Somrak skating around the ring with an elite opponent. You also get a primary lesson in how backwards, non-aggressive fighting in Thailand's Muay Thai can lead to performances of supreme dominance. In thinking about fights, we have to think about opponents. If you're not familiar with Boonlai, a nice edit of Boonlai toying with opponents:

Check this fight out! Rambo with his relentless dern against Paruhatlek's heavy hands

I'm 261 fights in and still not seeing what I do in training manifest in the ring. It takes a long time, if it happens at all. Some things will come, some will come after a long time, and some never will (I suspect), but that's okay. The way to improve "Fight IQ" is to fight more, and really more even than that is to spar as much as possible. Kevin and I call it "growing eyes," it's learning to see and feel under the pressure. You do stuff on the pads that you can't do in the context of having an opponent because padwork and "going live" (as they call it in wrestling) are totally different feelings. You stop breathing under pressure. You get tense under pressure. You try to think in a fight and nobody tries to think too much in padwork. You have to learn to feel, and feeling comes from just spending more and more time in as close to that context as possible. I have really good kicks against a bag or my trainer on pads when he's holding for them. But if I pivot off or try to kick him by surprise, my kicks go to hell. They're terribly light or weird angled. He yells at me, "just kick me hard! You won't hurt me!" So, I actually have to focus now on kicking him with the intention of hurting him, knowing that it's a problem for me. So take whatever you had in your fight, punches not being as hard, and try to bring pressure that you felt or being too far away and work on that with your trainer.

I suppose I'm just looking to get a better idea about the expectations of various gyms including running frequency, distance, and pacing. Just knowing what to be prepared for so I don't crash and burn. I'm over 30 now so a major concern is the balance between pushing through 'hurt' and avoiding actual injuries because my time is running out and I'd rather compete at less than ideal than not compete at all due to injury. Basically I'm getting old and trying to figure out how to deal with it while trying to fight before it's too late.

Border Pai Muay Thai is a new gym in Pai that might be worth checking out. It's really small, but the trainer Suk is pretty good. Hahaha just don't loan him any money. I trained with him for about 3-4 months at Toddy's and he was quite good but he got in trouble for drinking too much. Allegedly he stopped drinking, but I haven't seen or talked with him in a couple of years. I believe he is from the Meenayothin gym originally.