Leaderboard

First off it should be said that none of us have seen enough of either fighter's fights to really definitively say who is the GOAT. We have a handful of Samart's fights, and scraps of Dieselnoi's. It is a great loss. Secondly, it has to be said that those who have seen most of Samart's career, that is the Thais, more or less anoint him as GOAT. He is much beloved. I believe he was awarded his 3rd Fighter of the Year in his final year, ending on a fight he would lose. He is walking greatness. But, it is not as simple as that. Questions like GOATism are really about values, things to be celebrated, and therefore the question of who is the GOAT is perennial. In this question, as it lies between Dieselnoi and Samart, it very well may come down to He who fought hardest (presented himself as an irresistible, unfightable force) vs he who fought like he hardly had to fight (he who floated undisturbed). Which is more great? With these two fighters we also have historical evidence, this isn't a fantasy matchup. They actually fought in a huge, "Who is the best of Thailand?" fight, after Dieselnoi had run out of opponents in his own weight class at Lumpinee - a belt he would eventually have to vacate having cleared out the division. Dieselnoi took a huge weight cut to face Samart, dropping 19 lbs in just a few weeks, on weigh-in even giving Samart a 3+ lb advantage (129.7 lbs vs 133 lbs). That's right, Samart was allowed to be the bigger fighter by weight. It was a weight cut that Dieselnoi feels nearly killed him, and from which he feels he suffers from medically until this day, decades later. Dieselnoi won, eclipsing the charismatic Samart. He would not have many fights left in his career. Having defeated the best in Thailand the weight class below him, he would then, after I believe a year, go up in weight and defeat possibly the most feared fighter in the class above him. Sagat Petchyindee (of Street Fighter fame). Six months later he would completely dominate Sagat in the rematch, winning again. He bookended his greatness. Then well up in weight in his final two fights Dieselnoi would draw vs the powerful Krongsak (a fight Krongsak felt he won), and subsequently he would rematch Krongsak, defeating him definitively. Krongsak tells the story that Dieselnoi changed his tactics in the second fight, becoming more artful, more fimeu, giving him the final say between them. That, I believe, was Dieselnoi's last fight. At the age of 24 he had no more fights to fight. He had continued to train keeping himself in fight shape for several years, but there were none for him to be had. The question is: Why did Samart come out of of his faceoff with Dieselnoi unblemished with his GOAT reputation in tact? It was the extreme weight cut for Dieselnoi that caused famed promoter SongChai to criticize the bout, one he would never have arranged himself (maybe politics). But, Dieselnoi cleared every hurdle in this equation. He beat Samart, he beat Sagat, he exited the stage in his physical prime. He cleared the room. There is in Thailand - and maybe in the west in boxing - a dear appreciation for the lightest of styles (when coupled with some power). Sugar Ray Robinson and Muhammad Ali somehow have a silkiness that defies the gravity that we all find ourselves bound to. And the art of a sport as brutal as boxing or Muay Thai in large measure is painting on that canvas, that one is not perturbed. But, that is not all that fighting is. Fighting is also the ascension of the relentless spirit, the incredible grind and power of the human heart. It is the grit of what works, and is working. The silk of Samart vs the engine of Dieselnoi. Even when the engine won vs silk, silk has been acclaimed. There is even more in this. Muay Thai historically and iconagraphically has always had a tension between the Bangkok (elite) high sense of art, and the power and heart of the fields (everything provincial or agrarian). This tension goes well beyond the story of Muay Thai, and in many ways it has been what has made Muay Thai so beautiful, and meaningful. The so-called Golden Age of Muay Thai in the late 1980s and 1990s was driven by the economic boom of those years. Not only was there heaps of money to invest in gyms and fighters, flowing to enlarged fighter pay and sidebets, but it was the provincial man, the workers, who swarmed to Bangkok to find employment in the suddenly burgeoning, cosmopolitan economy. It was they that filled the stands with their wages in their hands, betting them. It was they who bought the newspapers and magazines. Rural city Champions from those years, like Roi Et's Samson Isaan or Yodkhunpon, were often seen as too rough-hewn. Blunt force fighters. Unartful (though filled with hidden art). Muay Khao fighters a 2nd class of "greatness", even though dominant. Look through the Fighters of the Year Awards of that time and you don't see an endless string of femeu undefeatability. And, among them all, Dieselnoi was the most undefeatable. He was a Giant, but far from simply accrediting his victories to anatomy, name other elite very tall, long knee fighters? Anatomy does not confer greatness. If you meet Dieselnoi in person, and train along side him, you will immediately understand it wasn't his anatomy that made him like no other. He burns like nuclear fission. But, while Dieselnoi painfully watched his love for Muay Thai waste away, unable to fight anyone, eventually retiring and unglamorously becoming a trainer in Japan for a decade (I believe), Samart transitioned into an incredible, cross-over figure, not only a silky champion who can't be touched but also a movie star and a singing star. It was the transmigration of the brutish art, taken to its highest levels. This afterlife of Samart also is part of the equation. You ask Thai men about Samart and they swoon. Not only for his Muay Thai, but the completeness of his aura. Ultimately questions about the qualities of a fighter are questions about "the man". Philosophically one might observe: Heraclitus gnomically wrote "Habit is fate", equally translatable as "character is destiny" or much more wordily: "the things you repeat, what you do and do, is your divine angel, where you will be guided". In this way "your fighting style is your destiny, your aim, your home, your divinity". So who is the GOAT? Does Thai sentiment win the day or does the Thai bias towards fimeu hierarchy lose something important in the question? Does "most unfightable fighter" not translate into absolute Greatness? This is the heritage, the legacy we of the west have inherited in the record. We look back through a glass darkly. Somewhere out there is the footage of that showdown between Dieselnoi and Samart, perhaps it will shine a light back in history, and show us all the time when these two men touched gloves for real. this is from a Facebook post I put up a long time ago, but I think it's good to have here

Not my intention to take away Samart's credit and overall awesomeness away. He's mind-blowing no matter what. Plus it's not like I truly have the sharpness and the knowledge to judge whoever's the greatest fighter (Although, objectively speaking, I would say it's Sylvie, but she's not part of this topic for some reason, lol.). That said, I have a feeling Samart was made the greatest by the media; whereas Dieselnoi made himself the greatest. I don't care the depth of someone's talent and slickiness and I don't care whatever genetical advantage someone has, when you train as hard as Dieselnoi did, made the most of what was given to you, and were forced into retirement because everyone were too scared to fight you... Well then you're the greatest. It's pretty obvious to me. But nowadays History remembers only what the mass media decides to highlights and archives. Which brings us to Sylvie yet again (and you Kevin). Thank God for her journalism. She kinda refutes the old idiom that you can't have your cake and eat it too: she's the greatest Muay Thai fighter (or shall be soon enough) and the greatest Muay Thai journalist. How about that. Otherwise yeah it's Dieselnoi to me for sure. Not a hardcore fan of Samart's singing and dancing hahaha not even sorry.

Yes, I have gotten that sense as well. They see him as, maybe, unique and non-comparable. Thais, generally, are very predisposed to body-type thinking, and his frame probably throws them for a computational loop. That being said, I do have a problem with the overall argument that he had some kind of unfair advantage, in the sense, you don't see pretty much ANY other super tall fighters dominating in Thailand. There were a few tall ones, but nobody turned their length into what Dieselnoi did. Muay Thai is not basketball. In fact, you could argue (in the absence of tall fighters simply dominating the sport), that his height might have made him prone as well as having an advantage. You had the greatest coaching minds of the Golden Age scheming how to strategically take advantage of his height and length. You should be able to cut angles on him, make him turn, find his blindspots. Nobody really could If you think about it, tall fighters don't always dominate even in other combat sports. The only one I can come up with is maybe Jon Jones who everyone talks about in terms of his length. You never get anyone saying Jon Jones isn't the greatest because he has an unfair advantage. I think that Dieselnoi deserves great credit for taking his anatomy and turning it into a weapon where all of its advantages showed, and very few of its weaknesses. I do agree that word of mouth probably played a big deal in this. Nobody in Thailand really saw Dieselnoi fight on television. Pi Nu, Sylvie's kru, who was a tall knee fighter was told when he was young that he should fight like Dieselnoi. The only problem: He, and nobody else around, had ever seen Dieselnoi fight, hahaha. It was mostly newspaper photos and magazine covers. The story about him became his height. Whereas Samart had a semi-prodigious media career post-fighting, and had the advantage of a western boxing championship which Thai's fall in love with. It is ironic though that he beat the supposed GOAT, but gets zero credit for doing so. Even Samart told us with pride when we interviewed him: "I never lost to Muay Khao." ummmm. Except for one.

Nice work Tyler

This is very, very difficult to do. Really almost impossible among the promoters and stadia we know, because it is not encouraged. Things may have changed since we first became familiar with the situation, I know several people have tried based on what Sylvie has described for herself, I haven't heard of one regularly successful person. A primary reason for this difficulty is that promoters count on the dependability of gyms and their liaisons. Gyms let them know how skilled a fighter is so there can be a good match (something they assess as you train with them), and then maybe even more importantly, gyms filter out undependable people. The promoter needs people to show up on cards. And lastly, and most importantly, these are very enduring relationships between gyms and promoters. The people involved have known each other for a decade or two usually. These are foundational bonds. In Thailand it's very unusual to go outside of these kinds of channels. The only reason why Sylvie was able to break out of this was a kind of perfect storm situation. She had already established herself as incredibly dependable as a fighter in Chiang Mai. I think she had already fought maybe 70 fights in the city. So when we moved to Pattaya, far from Chiang Mai, the trust issue was already there. Everyone knew her skill level, and everyone knew she was extremely dependable. On top of that Sylvie's Thai got really good, which greased the communication wheels. There may have been people who have found their way around the usual channels, but in Thailand you really need to have someone speaking for you, vouching for you. Sylvie's kind of a unicorn in this because she has created her own very solid reputation, something she could never have done without the help of her gym in Chiang Mai for the first several years.

I can only add what I have heard on the Thai side of things... and a lot of them seem to feel that Dieselnoi simply had an unfair (and insurmountable) advantage due to his frame. He wasn't just slightly longer/taller than others, he was MUCH longer and taller. I'd be curious to know his reach advantage in fights, but its got to be anywhere from 8-12 inches depending on the opponent. They definitely do not seem to give credit his "engine" and drive to fight. I think they simply dismiss him from the talk because of that. Samart on the other hand was in much more "competitive" fights and that created much more of that story type narrative that gamblers and those born on the countryside relish in. He became a folk hero of sorts. I kind of think of it in a pro-wrestling frame of reference simply due to the story telling aspect of it and how information traveled during that time period. In one guy you have this complete destroyer who everyone pretty much "knows" is going to walk through his opponents. In the other you have a seemingly normal human who the crowd relates to. It's kind of like having a heel vs babyface matchup. I think the fact that Samart went on to do movies and sing cemented that feeling of being someone who Thais could relate to (you know how big singing is here). Personally, I love me some Dieselnoi. I've only been around him in short bursts, but he is really fun to be around. His energy is infectious!

Last week I came across this gym: TFC Muaythai Gym It is a little bit outside of Bangkok but you can easily reach it by bus or grab. Since it is not centrally located the prices are lower and you will find cheap accommodation around. I can highly recommend this place because they focus on technique and make sure you will no wrong movements or postures - no matter what skill level you are on. Moreover, English is spoken quite well. Before I had tried many gyms in downtown and everytime I felt I had wasted my money. So if you dont mind being outside of Bangkok and working out in a rather small gym, you should give this place a try. You can send the headcoach of the gym a message through FB or Instagram. Cheers, Steff

Well, there is one point of divergence in at least most Thailand Muay Thai. In a single gym you will often find intensely diverse styles, and sometimes even contradictory technique instructions - you aren't experiencing this with the General who is really teaching in a much more traditional martial art style. Put your foot here, someone says. Then another kru will tell you to put it in another place. Swing your arm this way. No swing it that way. The variety in Thailand Muay Thai is incredible, even in a single gym. But I assume everyone in your Kung Fu tradition is taught to all do things the same way, moving towards an ideal form. One reason why one generalizes about traditional martial arts is that they tend to be passed down in a generalizing, or maybe, a uniformizing way, that is quite different than say the Muay Thai of Thailand or in maybe western boxing gyms. But, what would be interesting is if any of the Karate, TKD and Kung Fu styles, as branching as they may be, possessed breathing patterns you are learning, the breath on the recoil.

I wish I could contribute to this breathing conversation in the manner which I think you all want me to. But, one: there are sweeping generalizations being made, and two: I have no idea. A thing I’ve noticed about training, is the vague generalization of all other arts, except the one being engaged in. For example, in just being in Thailand, there is an insistence of the endless styles of Muay Thai, but when discussing other arts, there is the reduction of all other styles into one, generalized practice. As if there is only one Karate, Taekwondo or Kung Fu. My style of Kung Fu is an obscure sub-branch of another sub-branch, both of which have few similarities to what was portrayed in Kung Fu movies popularized in the 60’s and 70’s. I can not speak for all of Kung Fu, just my horse hair thin piece of it. And really I have no idea why the breathing patterns occur the way they do. I accept all the above notions. There are considerations for protecting ones organs, as well as energetically moving through a technique. Truth be told, I breath the way I do, because it’s what I was instructed to do. I have only been practicing for 13 years. This is only a small fraction of the lifetime others have been practicing. My instructor for example has been training longer than Bruce Lee was even alive; and the General has been practicing for longer then my instructor as been alive! I have not yet reached the understanding of any one concept to be able to question it. My job at this adolescent stage in my martial arts study, is to do what I am told. Maybe in 40 or 50 years, I'll be able to question things. What all of this makes me thing about is this idea that a black belt is one’s culmination of training and learning. Rather, I support the idea from a Jiujitsu black belt; a black belt is your qualification to begin learning. Similarly, Jimmy H Woo, who is the head of my San Soo lineage, said, a Master of Kung Fu is two things: a master of themselves and a master of covering their mistakes. I see this this last point in the General every now and then. Not often, but one or twice in a session, the General losses his balance ever so slightly. What the General, or any Master for that matter, is the best at, is not letting you know. And what the General has consistently talked about as a strength of Lertrit, is it’s ability to recover. If you miss a strike, or an opponent moves on you first, you can recover and make the best out of a situation.

Can you go into a little more detail regarding bad experiences/losing money? You don't have to name gyms or people, I'm just trying to understand the situation more clearly. Like are you paying for training somewhere wanting to fight and they aren't finding you fights? What is your experience level and how old are you? What area do you want to fight in and what weight do you fight at? Are you living in Thailand or just coming to train and fight when you can? I ask so many questions because sometimes it is just difficult to find matchups for certain people and the trainers or gym will simply give up without telling you (for a variety of reasons). I for example struggle to make 70 kg and only have 3 fights. This makes it difficult to find Thais for me to fight because a lot the ones over 70 kg are typically older and much more experienced than I am since they have basically retired and gotten fat lol. However my trainers are very adamant about me only fighting Thais and won't even bother looking for other foreigners for me to fight. A lot of promoters also see my age and just brush me off without even looking at training videos because by Thai standards I am ancient.

Hey @Victoria Pitt I got a fight outside of a gym. Friend knew a promoter who set it up without knowing me or my skill level (in English). I guess based on him trusting my friend. All was very ok and decent as far as I know. I'm now connected to the promoter who wanted to set up another fight. However he's going through some tough financial times atm unfortunately and will most likely travel abroad for work very soon. Heard great stuff about Sitjemam and Santai up in the north when it comes to fighting opportunities for women. So sorry about this. They been promising you fights that never materialize while you keep paying training fees?

This is a sidenote, but maybe an important one. We realized from the beginning that women need to write their own history. They have to be their own historians. I've tried to urge female fighters to stop waiting for their gyms, or promotions, or "the media" to tell their story. It won't be told. You have to create your own record as a female fighter. Female fighters will simply be swallowed by the tide. It's painful to see so many female fighters still beholden to the "official" keepers of history, especially in this age of self-publication. I've written an article (maybe 8 months ago) which I haven't yet published, where are argue that Sylvie is greater than Dekkers, or at least will be, in the sense of comparing the Dekkers-OneSongChai (largely video archive), fighter+publisher complex, vs the Sylvie+self-publisher complex. In the long run the fighter cannot be separated from the web of their history, their record. Women really should be working harder to tell their own stories. I get it, women are told to take their place all the time. When in gyms they often feel special when acknowledged as legitimate, and feel a debt. This often results in some very strong-minded women toeing the line of the gym/promoter assemblage. I remember the very first time Sylvie made her first "athlete" page on Facebook. It was quite a while ago. It felt incredibly uncomfortable to do so. People in the local Muay Thai community back then were like: Who the fuck does she think she is? A Facebook Fighter Page? Putting up all your training videos? Who do you think you are? Putting up all your fight footage? Who the hell are you? But there is no doubt. Women need to archive and be historians of themselves, especially as fighters. And part of that is to be a historian or journalist of others, one's own scene, or those you admire. Hey, just my opinion, but it's been our path, and we've urged other female fighters to do the same -- but so very few do. There just is a tide that flows the other way. But, returning to the main topic, there is some sense in which it seems like Samart's star shot so much higher after he retired. But, and one has to be perfectly honest here, Samart in his fighting displayed a quality which is probably the highest quality a fighter can have in Thailand, which is to appear "above" the fight. As if the fight isn't even affecting him, or that he only has to tap into 10% of his energy to deal with it. This is completely, and I do mean completely an act. But this kind of performance requires incredible skill, and to pull off that illusion is extremely difficult. I think that because he portrayed this particular quality at such a high level, combined with his movie star, singer, playboy persona, it just makes him irresistible to Thais. It's like talking about how James Bond is as a fighter. He doesn't even wrinkle his suit. You get this in other sports. The effortless boxer (Ali), effortless football player (don't know soccer), basketball player (Bird, Dr. J, Magic). golfer, baseball player. football player (Jim Brown, Bo Jackson), etc, etc.

A lot of people do hold their breath when under exertion and exhale afterwards. This maybe is okay for single repetitions of heavy exertion. I will contend to be efficient at something one has to breathe (obviously), my point above was to agree with Tyler. No wonder they had trouble as inhaling on the strike is very different. You may be right and we are conditioned to exhale in whatever we're doing, be it boxing, weights or kicking a footy. I guess, I was trying to get across a different idea and that idea was getting hit whilst hitting. Leading to getting winded which like you said can get you dropped. I wasn't attempting to say the general's idea was incorrect.

Hahaha this makes things so nutty in a Thai gym. Things can get real awkward real fast when you've got two trainers with opposing styles. Everything you do becomes wrong and everyone involved gets frustrated. Something I really like about the General is that he is big on talking about everything. While he definitely believes how he does things is the "correct" way, we always have discussion and bring different stuff to the table. Its really fun to have discourse about the training and helps break things down a bit easier.

Vicky said this is his son, it's probably the best way to get in contact with him as I don't think Ajarn Peng has his own FB page.

Oh yes of course meditation. Most simplest thing to do, hardest to stick to. I have used epsom salt soaks a lot in the past due to sleep issues and trying to learn some wim hoff techniques. Where do you get epsom salt in Thailand? Or you just use regular salt? I wear glasses in the evening and bluelight glasses do not work with that but I use filters on my phone, but I am pretty sure I get way too much bluelight. For melatonin regulation Dr Jack Kruse (bit of an asshole on social media but also a genius) has interesting ideas on letting sunlight hit the retina in morning https://jackkruse.com/time-10-can-you-supplement-sunlight/ Thanks so much for the link, very interesting and I might go for her book as well.

^^^ Lol I'm not sure why, but this whole post cracked me up Oliver. Honestly I'm not entirely sure I even understood your point, but the whole thing was very entertaining to me. I think I understand what you were saying though and I like all the coffee references! This is such a massive difference that so many from the West can't seem to wrap their heads around. I actually wish more fights in all combat sports were judged using narrative or complete fight scoring. 10 point must totally changes how fighters approach things and it allows people to "steal" rounds.

This 1963 loss by elbows was, one could say The Origin of Kickboxing. The loser of this bout vs the Thai Rawee Dechachai was Kenji Kurosaki, a Japanese fighter who was by several sources said to be a co-inventor of Kyokushin Karate (1953) and who would after this loss go onto invent a Muay Thai + Kyokushin Karate fusion (the story is more complex than this, but this is decent shorthand), apparently informed by a Thai fighter he brought over from Thailand (Narat Siri by one report), opening up Mejiro Gym in Japan (1969). Kurosaki would then teach this new "kickboxing" style to among many other visiting Dutch men, Jan Plas, who would open his own Mejiro Gym, but in Amsterdam (1978), and go onto disseminate the hybrid invented Karate + Muay Thai style. Incredibly, it took only 13 short years after this loss (when in 1976, Plas founded the NKBB Dutch Kickboxing Association) for the invention of "kickboxing" to be formally exported to Holland. This fight is the origin of that series of dominoes. You can also read about the fight that definitively established Muay Thai as superior to Karate, at least in ring fighting, a few months later, setting of it's own hyperbolic Japanese response: Karate vs Muay Thai in the 1960s – Origins of Japanese Kickboxing << read and watch Tadashi Sawamura vs Samarn Sor Adisorn take a look at this 1968 Black Belt magazine article about that bout. Two Avenues of "Redemption" from these Losses Tadashi Sawamura There seemed to be two primary flows of Japanese development from these fights. There was the promoter Noguchai and his favorite fighter (who eventually would have an anime made of his exploits attempting to recover his honor lost to the Thais), and would have a Japanese television fighting career filled with dubious and spectacular knockouts. You can see these very likely staged Kickboxing KOs here: Kenji Kurosaki And there was the Kyokushin Karate + Muay Thai hybrid creation of Kickboxing through Kenji Kurosaki who also lost, appropriating/infusing Thai techniques and training methods, establishing the Mejiro Gym, which then created Dutch Kickboxing through Jan Plas and others. On this line of development you had the star Fujiwara, who actually fought and won the Rajadamnern title IN JAPAN. Yep, they got Rajadamnern to fight for their belt in Japan and not Rajadamnern. He "won" the belt by tackling: What plagued much of this Japanese success is of course the very strong sense that many of these fights, and the creation of these stars was faked or bought off. Anyone who follows the development of Japanese promotions knows that there is a long history of let's just say questionable outcome generations. The rise of the Japanese elite fighter had strong Nationalistic tones, and it seems pretty sure to bet that much of this was staged or at least manipulated. When the top Japanese Kickboxers came and fought the Top Thais in a World Championship (Dieselnoi and Nongkai were among the Thais, the team was headed by the respected Arjan Yodthong) in I believe 1982 (?) they had their clocks cleaned, and accusations of fight fixing attempts by the Japanese were rampant. My thoughts on this have been spread in a few places, here is where I've written elsewhere: The invention of Kickboxing as a sport, by the Japanese, was definitely experienced as "stealing" by many Thais. Techniques may have somehow "existed" in Karate in some theoretical sense, but nobody knew how to actually fight with them, as you can see in this famous 1963 fight between Rawee Dechachai and Kenji Kurosak (an instructor of Kyokushin Karate, and by some reports actually a co-inventor). You can see almost no ability to "fight" in the techniques often attributable to Karate. https://web.facebook.com/kevin.vonduuglasittu/videos/2975896942435500/ By most reports this loss, and many others, lead to a huge push to incorporate Muay Thai techniques into a new form of fighting, resulting in the sport and art of Japanese kickboxing. The chambered kick was reported ditched, elbows were added and emphasized, and Thai instructors were imported. By one report by 1970, only 7 years after this embarrassing loss, 3 Japanese channels were broadcasting kickboxing fights weekly. These fights featured lots of Japanese vs Thai showdowns, very likely fixed fights to demonstrate the superiority of the new Japanese style. This was definitely experienced as a theft by many Thais. When kickboxing promoter Osamu Noguchi opened his Kickboxing gym in Bangkok this was seen as afront. When the Japanese kickboxers were blown out in the World Championships there, it was a great cultural clash. By many reports Noguchi was charged with trying to fix those fights (the only Japanese win was by a disqualification), was punched in the face by Arjan Yodthong, and ended up having to flee the country in fear of his life, closing his "Kickboxing" gym. The problem wasn't so much that kickboxing (Karate) was trying to adopt Thai techniques, and Thai training methods. The problem was that they then were trying to prove their superiority in doing so through endless propaganda, and stage fights. Since the World War 2 occupation by Japan there had been long simmering ill feelings toward Japan and its' ethnocentric superiority (Ultra Nationalism). and, The problem was not that Karate didn't "have" techniques. Lots of techniques may have been in the kata. It was that no Karate "master" actually knew how to fight with them. There is a huge difference between "knowing" a move, and fighting with it. What the early Muay Thai vs Karate bouts of the 1960s and 1970s showed was that Muay Thai's superiority basically came from the fact that it was produced by 1000s and 1000s of full contact fights, in fact 100s of 1,000s all across the country. A single fighter's style was not only an accumulation of the transmission of the art, but also of 100 or so real, full contact fights, something no Karate fighter or master had. It's techniques and training methods were created by fighting. While Japanese Karate was produced by one or two men who came from Okinawa and literally just "taught" the art to others (mostly affluent youth at University clubs). At that point it simply was not a living fighting technique in the way Muay Thai was. It very well encapsulated and preserved very valuable fighting knowledge in powerful, meaningful ways, but was not capable of producing actual fighters like that of the process of Muay Thai, and this was born out in actual fights. The truth is I'm just piecing this story together from fragments of the history still discoverable on the Internet. A lot of us just think of Kickboxing as only another form of fighting sport, and don't really think much about how it developed, or it's origins of motivation. It doesn't mean that Kickboxing is "bad", but in some ways its origins reveal its weaknesses, not only as a fighting art/sport, but also in terms of ethnic storytelling. Much of this storytelling has been done through dis-equal match making (for instance pretty significant weight differences between Dutch Kickboxing stars and top Thai fighters), or in likely outright match fixing, or in propaganda-like media representations, or story shaping (some of it very passive: very few present day Dekkers fans realize he was only 4-15 in Thailand, the mythology of Dekkers is its own subject though). Present day Kickboxing comes out of this heritage, and much of that heritage has been ethnically driven to minimize the fighting prowess of the Muay Thai of Thailand, and leverage up, and in some cases plain making up the efficacy of foreign opponents.

I'm curious to hear about what people do to recover. I believe in regular training and definitely into the "there is no overtraining only under recovery"-approach. However due to not getting proper recovery, mainly not enough sleep, I've struggled with all kinds of illness, fatigue and muscle strains. But to go to the gym 6 days a week even if I'm tired and fatigued has its wins and helps me to learn. And to battle my own mind. Sleep seems to be number one parallel to nutrition. Enough protein seems to be key for me. And warm showers after sessions. I can't say a particular supplement other than BCAA has done any magic trick. But I also do a lot of massage and have done regular chiropractic treatments in the past. I'm a yogic and used to do do a lot of yoga. When I stopped (because muay thai took over my life) my body felt it, getting stiffer more prone to injuries etc. and instead I opt for weekly thai massage and sauna. I've received the expert advice that body work (massage and the likes) is great for getting the muscles in order, the way they move under the skin etc. But I'm also constantly being told by trainers and fellow students to not get a thai massage more than 2/monthly. Because of toxins being released and so on. But massage has really helped me with my muscle issues. And it "feels" right. Curious to hear other people's views.

So here is my theory on the breathing thing... I think it doesn't matter if you are inhaling or exhaling as a defensive mechanism, either way you are essentially holding your breath on the pause (either inward or outward) to contract your core and protect your organs. Where I think things differ with the sharp inhale just prior to being struck is that it allows you to keep your core steady like a barrel full of water which helps with balance upon contact. Think about how power-lifters inhale and hold just prior to doing a heavy squat. It helps protect your core and keeps everything contracted. Also according to them it allows you to lift more weight because of that stability or in our scenario exert more force on the counter strike which is really what you are waiting for. This style heavily relies on defensive counter striking and ideally you aren't doing five three minute rounds, so long term endurance isn't really that big of an issue from a conceptual standpoint. It really is a case of same same but different. I think it is dependent on the situation. I'm actually finding that a lot of this training is taking me back to my old style (which I am quite happy about), and to be honest I didn't really have any endurance issues with it back then even though it was constant movement and counter attacking. I think your body just gets used to it all and becomes more efficient at using energy. I kind of think of the inhale vs exhale thing in a similar manner to aerobic vs anaerobic training. They are just different. For example you wouldn't train all aerobic activity if you were planning on swimming competitively. You would still likely be in great shape, but you are going to get tired more quickly because your breathing rhythm has to change while swimming and your body isn't used to it.

Yes for sure, sunlight and correction of circadian rhythms and treatment of depression and what have you not is well researched. Jack Kruse takes it one step further though . Interesting stuff.

The VA uses this to treat melatonin regulation and also depression so there probably has been some clinical research done on this. They make special lamps for indoor use too in case you don't have access to regular sunlight. I used to have one but couldn't really tell you if I noticed a difference or not. I was also taking 10,000 IBU of Vitamin D a day and handfuls of SSRIs/Antipsychotics so my brain was pretty much soup at that point lol. I like the Wim Hoff techniques. Anecdotal but I feel like they help make you stronger mentally if you are using them in conjunction with freezing cold water. Forcing yourself to overcome uncomfortable situations can mentally take you a long way.

THIS definitely makes a lot of sense. Thanks!

IFMA had to translate Muay Thai to the rest of the world. It's a very difficult mission, having the graft it onto basically kickboxing. I think they did an excellent job. Definitely the case. A major reason for this is that Muay Thai cannot be a definitively "Thai" sport and be accepted into the Olympics. Notice, they changed the name of the sport from "Muay Thai" to "Muaythai" de-emphasizing the Thai definition. It has to be a world sport. The rule sets are likely in part designed to create a kind of equity of wins. If the Thais were wiping out the rest of the world it would be very hard to win inclusion. I think this is a fair assessment. It has to be a world sport. The world has to understand what is going on when they watch the fights, and world participants have to win a fair share. I'm not super familiar with what goes on in the US, other than I've heard complaints about it being kind of brawly, and that the scoring criteria is very inconsistent. The USMF under the general direction of IFMA has probably made huge strides in both of these areas. It's not stadium style scoring at all, but stadium style scoring is very difficult to export because of its narrative structure. I think its been very good for everyone, speaking only from afar.

Really looking forward to Kevin's answer on this as I know his will be much more thought out and accurate than mine. Imo though, the 10 point must system is just easier to score and gives fans a clear cut/easier way to look at things. Even guys/gals who have fought out here for long periods of time don't understand the scoring because narrative is subjective when one fighter doesn't completely dominate the other. I suspect this is why Thais bet in between rounds and sometimes change the fighter they bet on as they fight progresses.

Wuttidet Lukprabath : champion of the year in 2007 live in Ayyuthaya Rungruanglek Lukprabath : champion of the year in 2009 live in Saraburi Lamnammon Sor Sumalee : champions du Lumpini (King of the knees) live in Ubon Ratchathani Fasai Taweechai :champion of the year in 1970 live in Ubon Vicharnoi Porntawee : champion of the year in 1977 : Sagat has his phone number Anantasak Panyuthapoom : fighter of the year in 1997 live in Chaiyapour Someone have the phone of: Seechang Sakornpitak champion of the year in 1971 Porsai Sittbunlert champion of the year in 1976 Nongkhai Sor Prapassorn champion of the year in 1980

Very tough to talk about without people getting pissed off. Like....OK, let's do this another way. Ya know how disgusting coffee usually tastes outside Europe, especially outside Italy? Every single tiny shithole cafe on a back alley corner in Italy does gorgeous, smooth tasting espresso with a beautiful crema for 1 euro or something. Like pretty much everywhere. There are other European countries that do it to a similarly high level as there is such a thing as European coffee culture. But Britain and the US.... 80% of the time (and that's being generous) you're given burned, overpriced, liquid dog shit in a paper cup. A lot of people are even delusional enough to think they know and appreciate what good coffee is, because they're ordering from a menu of 200 flavoured options with 5 different sizes written in 3 different languages. Or some will say stuff like, "yeah but yeah but yeah but.....umm.... there's like this cafe in this town in X country that actually does it amazing and imports their coffee beans from Italy and the owner actually learned his roasting technique in Naples etc, so there..." - OK that's all fine and good...but.... as soon as people start saying that kind of shit to defend their country's coffee they lose all perspective and don't realise they're talking about the exception.

I'm from Germany and while I'm not knowledgeable enough in the topic to give you the run down of organizations here my impression is that we are one or even a few steps more behind than you guys in the US. The name "Muay Thai" or "Thai Boxing" is used by some but quite often what is trained there is more kickboxing (light contact, K1, ...) than actual Muay Thai. We have a few notable fighters on the international level like Pascal Schroth or Enriko Kehl, both of which I think have trained outside of Germany quite a bit (Schroth actually lives in Thailand). Personally I guess I'm kind of lucky to be in a gym run by people who have at least fought and trained actual Muay Thai in addition to other forms of kickboxing and actually DO teach elbows, clinch, etc BUT even there the focus is more on K1-style Kickboxing as that is what has a much bigger scene here. In Kickboxing you can actually find fights here while this (from what I've seen so far) seems much more difficult in Muay Thai. As an example: My gym recently organized a "Fight Night" including a 4man tournament and about as many other fights. It was all Kickboxing (from kids with shinpads and headgear to adults with just 10oz gloves) and one boxing fight, no Muay Thai. This seems to be the common sight when it comes to those small shows. As far as I'm aware there is only one big kickboxing show on German TV and that is run by a promotion that seems to be largely regarded a corrupt joke by kickboxing fans outside of it. I think they even have "Thai Boxing" rules but as far as I heard even those are different from actual Muay Thai. Actually I watched it for the first time last weekend. Only saw 1 fight and was amazed that I, being a beginner who only has been into this kind of stuff for like 2 years or so, had a better grasp on the rules than the TV commentator who couldn't figure out why on of the fighters got "another warning, for what ever" when she actually got demoted a point for repeatedly catching her opponents leg which the ref had warned her about several times before. Needless to say... I was kind of unimpressed

This would suggest that the General's exhale on recoil is much more in keeping with defensive priorities, as this is when you would be most likely counter struck. If you exhale on the offensive then you would be more vulnerable to counters (on the inhale).

That's always how I've taken it as well. I think that's where the idea of qi comes from that you hear a lot about, especially in Shaolin. When you hear them talking about the flow of qi at first you're like 'huh, okay qi isn't real' but then when you get past the apparent wizardry they are usually meaning the flow of kinetic energy. So when the punch comes and you hear that grunt and exhalation it's tensing the core and allowing that power to go through you and into the target. That's why styles with iron body/iron shirt conditioning are big on exhaling as you get punched to harden up and protect the organs.

I just started watching him recently on the ONE shows. Seems to have some really good fight IQ. How about Damien Trainor? Is he fairly well known throughout the UK? I love his fight with Tawachai Budsadee.

I really like the way Tim put this, it is absolutely perfect. Recoil is the right word in so many ways. Each strike is like the bolt of a rifle sliding back as gas (breath) is expelled and then slamming forward again as another round is chambered. In regards to comparisons between Kung Fu and Muay Lertrit, I'd be curious to know what @Tim Macias thinks about your comment regarding breathing in the Muay Lertrit and the style being more defensive at its core. For example, is Kung Fu more aggressive in its roots due to the opposite breathing pattern, or as you mentioned, did the traditional martial arts simply move away from that as they were removed from combat settings? I also have no experience with traditional martial arts so I would like to know what Tim thinks. I also wonder if the breathing is simply rooted in a response to a sudden attack, similar to how we inhale sharply when startled or are about to be in a car accident?

For me the difficult part of the straight punch is to not turning/corkscrewing my hand as I punch, not lifting my shoulders/chest, and also to not rotate my back foot when punching with the rear hand. Usually I would do about a 1/4 turn going from guard to full extension, but he wants us to have zero rotation on the hand/arm. None. And the fist needs to still end up in a traditional boxing position instead of what you would see in Karate or Taekwando with the thumb facing the ceiling. Everything comes from the hips so that there is literally a perfectly straight (and therefore efficient) movement. If done correctly the hips will move the fist into the correct position but also causes the elbow to flare a bit (remember it isn't stadium style so we aren't worried about losing on points due to being mid-kicked; he's also got some nasty counters for this that we just haven't got into yet). We're also stopping at the target (which from a scientific standpoint should cause a ripple effect as the energy disperses on the target and will cause a flash KO) and purposely not fully extending our arms to avoid potential arm locks. These small change ends up changing the angle of everything else and how weight transfers. On top of that, we've got to consider defensive positioning at the same time. It's MUCH harder than it sounds lol. I feel like I am reworking everything from day one like I've never thrown a punch before. And then also being asked to transition and do it from the opposite stance all in one streamlined movement. The amount of small details is seriously overwhelming but also really cool when you can see how effective it is. I spent a ton of time both in the gym and at home just looking at the movement of my fist while slowly trying to weight transfer and turn my waist. Overall I guess what I am trying to say is that what we are doing/showing in these videos isn't really "complete" yet as he doesn't really break things down into individual techniques as we would in Western boxing or Muay Thai (i.e. a jab, a hook, a teep, etc.) where you work off a specific technique or stance and then feel things out while trading attacks. It is more a complete system with a few fundamentals that flows one movement directly into another without a specific stance and must be perfected to maintain balance and power. With stadium Muay Thai you use strikes to pick apart your opponent, but typically you would throw at max 4-6 strikes in one combination. This style just keeps going. It is complete and utter domination of your opponent regardless of your current stance and situation. The first day he asked us "if you were fighting five opponents right now, who would you disable or kill first and who would you finish last?", and he was quite serious about that. He wanted us to walk him through the mental process of how that fight would play out and how we would survive that kind of encounter. The style is built around making sure you are never knocked to the ground and to injure your opponent with every movement whether defensive or offensive. 90% of it seems to be geared towards having a super strong defensive base to maintain balance as well as a clear sight picture of the fight, and then counterattacking whatever area is open (T-line of the face, sternum, groin, armpits, organs, joints, etc.). As a combat vet who has actually used hand to hand combat during hundreds of raids (I did over 600 raids my last deployment alone) I am actually really impressed with how well thought out the entire system is and how lethal its potential is. I'm really looking forward to perfecting the small stuff so it all feels smooth and can we worked into larger chains of attack. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast so much of this is reminiscent of learning to shoot from a supported base, then moving to individual 25m flat range, then to individual KD range, then to team movement drills, then to CQB/shoot houses, then to full scenarios with sim rounds, and eventually culminating in actual combat operations. Hahaha sorry that was a bit of a memory dump, I hope it makes sense. I did a bunch of mid-sentence editing so some of it may be incoherent. I enjoy this kind of discourse though, I wish we had time to do some commentary over the top of the video. It would be fun to explain what is going on mentally during some of this training so we can point out some of the small stuff we are working on or that he explains to us.

Absolute best attitude anyone can have in martial arts. Everyone has their approach to techniques and they all think that their way is the right way. I really like that you recognise that.

After re-watching the videos a couple of times I cannot say enough how much of this we are doing and how much of it doesn't really shine through in the videos! There are so many tiny adjustments that we are both having to make that are completely contrary to things we have been training for years. Literally everything from balance points, wrist alignment, hand rotation, weight transfer/foot rotation, rhythm of breathing, stopping points of a strike, and more are completely reversed from everything I have been taught over the last few years. I spent nearly the entire first day just trying to walk in a straight line correctly while breathing lol. It is a lot to focus on at one time. I've been training out here for a few years and never had to focus on so many aspects at one time. On top of that there is a bit of the "trying to drink from a fire-hose" effect going on just from the amount of technique we have been shown (at least for me personally) since General Tunkawom is trying to show Tim as much as possible in three weeks. The General's aide has come in a few times to watch and has mentioned how quickly General Tunkawom is moving us through different techniques. It is insanely mentally exhausting even though it is a total blast! Kevin has talked a few times about "hacking" Muay Thai, and to be honest and completely shameless, I'm pretty good at that lol. This is totally different though. There is no way to hack this, it is SOOOO much more precise than any of the stadium fighting styles. Exact and measured repetition of the fundamentals is the only way to make progress. That is part of the mentality of the style though. If you overextend or get off balance in the ring, you risk losing by KO. If you do that in actual hand to hand combat which this style is designed for, you are going home in a bag. Everything must be perfect EVERY time. Also, just for future, I don't mind if anyone comments on my technique (maybe PM me so we'll keep things from getting clusterfucked on the main forum). I like to analyze that kind of stuff. Fifty percent chance that I will either listen objectively or I'll tell you to shut your face lol. Either way though, I'll definitely take a look oftentimes people catch stuff that I don't and maybe it will help nail down some of the finer points of this style through discussion.

I think people get confused. They want to compare "martial arts" or "fighting styles" in the complete abstract, as if they are software programs that exist out there in some other reality, and they argue that one is better than another. Muay Thai is proven, in actual fights, as superior probably MOSTLY because Thai fighters have grown up fighting an incredibly inordinate number of full contact fights, from youth. No other art or fighting style on the planet is like this, to this degree. The average run of the mill Thai fighters is incredibly comfortable with the fight space and violence, if only because of early and very frequent exposure. The Thai Muay Thai fighters walked through Japanese Karate fighters not because abstractly "Muay Thai" is better than "Karate", per se. It's because Thai Muay Thai fighters have been fighting since they were kids, in highly contested, full contact fights, and a lot of them. It's like the rich kid walking up and fighting the poor kid in the mean streets. Most things being equal, it's not the fighting style of each. It's that one kid has been fighting his way to the top of a pile his whole life, and the other guy has been taking lots of a classes and "sparring hard". Early Karate fighters in these Japanese vs Thai faceoffs really were kind of social elites. Karate was passed down to relatively affluent Japanese students (it moved through the University system). While that was happening poor kids in every village of Thailand were fighting in endless full contact festival fights. Put the two to together, and you get a mismatch. People look at this question in completely the wrong way, as if "Muay Thai" in the abstract is somehow proven better than "Karate" in the abstract. Ok, if you are saying "I'm going to study a martial art, which one is best!", maybe there is some interest in knowing what is "best", but really it's about what protocol and experiences are you going to undergo. You can learn "Muay Thai" in a mall gym and suck. You can learn Karate under much more fight heavy situations, and be pretty awesome. But, the protocol and process that produces the average Muay Thai fighter, since youth, is pretty much unparalleled in the world. There is a secondary case to be made, and I make this case, that Muay Thai has a superiority in the sense that the overall art of its techniques actually developed through real fighting, with lots of weapons, over decades and decades. That is, you didn't have "master" coaches inventing principals or moves out of their own creative impulses (which may or may not be effective), as much as you had repeated experiments and feedback pushed through 100,000s of thousands of real fights. The whole sport/art form takes on, I think, a certain efficacy and vocabulary. This is just a theory though. You can't prove it by simply putting a Thai Muay Thai fighter vs a Japanese Karate fighter because I think the real difference in efficacy comes from the personal experiences of each fighter, and their comfort in the space, not from some abstract "style". But it makes good sense to me. I think the same thing informs the efficacy of western boxing, which today rests on the developments of 10,000s and 10,000s of real fights, many of them in the impoverished classes, for now at least a hundred years. You can see the weight of the techniques that come out of that heritage. Thai fighters, as in, real elite Thai fighters in their prime don't even fight in these kinds of rulesets (rulesets designed to remove many of the Thai's weapons, to keep them fighting in limited vocabularies so the westerners and others can keep up). Buakaw wasn't even an elite fighter when he moved over to K1. He was a good young fighter, but that's about it. They were like "hey kid, go over there and do this thing in Japan". He walked through K1. You talk to Thais and most feel that Buakaw would be blown out by the best Thai fighters in Thailand in a Muay Thai fight, and they've felt that way for many years. They are proud of him as a Thai icon, but people seriously in the game don't think he's close to being a top Muay Thai fighter, I've heard many laugh about it. There are almost no examples of top Thais crossing over to fight others. Today you have someone like Yodwicha who is ripping through the Top King promotion, hilariously doing so as a puncher. Why is it funny that he's doing it as a heavy handed puncher? Because when he was fighting at the highest level in Muay Thai (won co-Fighter of the Year), he was endlessly criticized for having "no weapons" and being only a clinch fighter. He moved onto kickboxing and had to give up his one big weapon, the clinch, and just started knocking people out left and right, something you never saw in Thailand:

Not really worth mentioning - I mean you can mention it, but you would also have to mention that they "Muay Thai fighters" that they beat were not Thais, hahahaha. And, you can guess just how good those non-Thais were. Non-Thai "Muay Thai" fighters in 1963? It's amazing they could find them. It pretty much let's you know the purpose of the match. Fly all the way to Thailand, fight and win again non-Thais. Oi. The one Thai who fought a Japanese fighter obliterated him. This dominance was repeated in the World Championships of combat Martial Arts in Bangkok, I believe 1982. When all the Thais made quick work, sometimes VERY quick work of the Japanese fighters (and everyone else), almost 2 decades of training and fighting since these initial embarrassing losses. The only loss of a Thai to a Japanese fighter in those bouts (Headline: "Japanese kickboxing beats Muay Thai!") was due to disqualification because the Thai was judged to be clowning the Japanese fighter - not to mention that there were apparently accusations that the Japanese coalition was attempting to fix fights. Yes I've run into his description a few times. Some people like to pass this off as if some every day unprepared "coach" was just pulled in unexpectedly. Yes, he may have fought without a lot of prep, but he was not just some coach. He probably would be the closest thing one could find as a Kyokushin Master. I've seen lineages which claim he was even a Kyokushin co-creator (10 years before, 1953) (these schools like to fight over who is the progenitor). In any case, he was about as powerful a representative of Kyokushin as one could possibly come up with, or at least an elite one. He wasn't just one of many random coaches on a team. You have a Karate Master, a man who helped create and disseminate Kyokushin, going up against a Thai the history books otherwise would have forgotten. I'm pretty sure the Thai wasn't training months for this fight either, to be honest. Sounds like a fight a Thai would take on a few days notice. Suffice to say, Kurosaki understood himself to be thoroughly and intensely beaten. His response wasn't "Gee, if I only had a fight camp!" and "I must train harder!". His response was to completely reinvent his art and create "Kickboxing" which was eventually passed to the Dutch. I suspect that he ended up thinking that it was a blessing that he fought instead of just a student of his, as he might have blamed the loss on just the skill of the student. Instead he experienced first hand the difference (and deficit) of his Kyokushin, and focused his life on making very big, in fact profound changes.

I can understand that. (Also because her gym seems incredibly nice.) But also gym culture being so dependent on atmosphere and the people training. A group of people coming to train can easily change things. I used to train with my husband, but now I am more or less alone training due to his work. And I feel my current gym changes with each group of people that comes and goes. I always wonder how it is for the thai fighters who sleep and train at the gym.

This right here. It's very hard to preserve gym culture, and have "reach". It's one reason that for several years Sylvie pretty much said nothing about her own gym, and promoted so many others...hahaha.

Hi there. There are quite a few options in Bangkok, as you mentioned most cost around 8000-12000 month for 2 sessions/day. My advice is to check gyms you are interested in on facebook or instagram to get an impression of what kind of people train there at the moment. It is so hard to recommend a place as trainers change, students change and so on. Organize accommodation for the first few days in Bangkok and visit a couple of gyms to get the feel for it. And then pick the one you prefer. If you want to fight, ask other foreigners at the gym if the gym helps you arrange fights and how well they prep you. Some gyms let their students wait forever, promising them fights that never happen... Also at the moment it rains quite heavily now and then in BKK and some places get flooded easily. Might be worth to keep in mind when looking for a place to stay. Some gyms in the city that might be of interest to visit are: FA Group in Chatuchak (thai fighters and foreigners, they sometimes have quite a few larger guys) Attachai (Onnut) Muay thai academy/Rompo (Klong Thoey) Superbon trains there Numponthep (also in Klong Thoey. Mix Thai fighters, Japanese/Chinese and some westerners. Currently no one heavier than 65-70 kilo training there) PK Saenchai gym (Thawanchay, Rodlek and others train there) Sathian gym (Sangmanee trains there if I am not mistaken) ...and then all the camps found here: https://muaythaicampsthailand.com/category/bangkok/ You can also ask here: https://www.facebook.com/MuayThaiCampsThailand/ Good luck!

Maybe think about Santiennoi's Gym outside of Bangkok? He's handled some higher profile westerners (Samon Dekkers for instance), is a legend of the Golden Age. It's also a pretty traditional gym, probably a little unlike your past two experiences, which might be cool. In general though, checking out accommodation through AirBnB is always good. You can see the general cost of apartments and rooms around wherever you choose, and get a foothold that way.

Well, I went back. The difference was astounding. Idk how exactly I ended up in the MMA style class instead of the striking class.. not even really sure they were going to have a striking class.. still figuring that out but that's beside the point. The point being that I went back and it was completely different. I've talked to a few people about this to kind of think out loud why I struggled so much with last weeks class and have come up with a few explanations. The largest explanation being that I was probably giving myself too high a threshold and expectation, and just ended up letting myself down. The next, and while not as large but still pretty important, is that one of the instructors and the way he treated me and his personality was reminiscent of my first coach.. the one who I did not in the end have a good experience with.. and an ex of mine. I think it really fucked with my head. Like, really fucked with my head. I'm glad I went back. Still going to give it another couple of go's I think before I fully commit to it though.

So, I'm an artist (not a tangent, I swear)---I show my art at a local martial arts gym. I couldn't afford muay thai at gym #2 for like 3 months, but I was going to this other gym as a hosted artist during that time, (gym #3), just to sit there with my art and chat with the people who showed up to visit the art (in my city different businesses "host" local artists and open their doors for free to the public to come look). My friend asked me to paint her, so I painted an expressionist portrait of her throwing a roundhouse kick. Gym #3 owner liked my art so much he asked how much I wanted for it. I initially told him it wasn't for sale, but then I saw an opportunity and said it would cost one month of free training (I am sneaky). That was when I didn't have money to go to gym #2, and I am shy about pricing paintings "per square inch", as some painters do because it would come out super expensive and I'm not a prized artist so I'm not too comfortable charging per square inch, yet (well, I won an award at the community college level, but I haven't been in a formal gallery where the paintings start at like 500 dollars and go up from there). He didn't reply to my text at all, so I assumed he was offended and I left it alone. I was kind of kicking myself for making such a dumb offer: :wallbash: This week, I managed to save up enough to go to gym #2 (where I'm happy). The day before I showed up for practice at gym #2, the gym #3 owner replied to me and said we could discuss the "price" at the next art show in September. I was so surprised! Now, I have to decide what to do. If they actually do offer me some sort of free trial month, or even a discount, how can I refuse? They all seem really enthusiastic and nice at gym #3. The gym #3 has longer hours than gym #2, so if they accept my trade (muay thai classes for muay thai painting), I was thinking about going to both. I already pledged to pay cash for gym #2 in September, and I don't want to make it seem like I abandoned gym #2, but I would love to barter a painting for muay thai classes! For the most part, I have waaaay more muay thai-inspired art then I do hard cash, so this would be an amazing opportunity! I feel loyalty to gym #2 owner and I wouldn't want him thinking I was testing the waters to leave his gym. What should I do? Should I tell gym #2 that I'm training simultaneously at gym #3 or just keep it to myself? Should I accept a discount and hand over my best painting or just sell it for hard cash? I already made the offer, so I can't take it back, even if I wanted to (legally, as a business entity, I cannot rescind an offer, and I don't want to anyways), but I might be able to renegotiate. I also wanted to tell this story because I think it's comical that I offered a large muay thai-inspired painting for muay thai classes. It's even more amusing when I found out they're willing to discuss this option further! My friend (the girl I painted) was like, "you did what??" :ohmy: but then she told me to just go for it and see what happens. I guess I'll find out next week what they are thinking in terms of payment/trade!