training with females versus training with males
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By Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu · Posted
I feel like I've kind of resigned myself to realizing that I lived through the last of maybe classical Muay Thai, the Muay Thai of Rama IX, and it is just passing into another phase. Maybe it will bend back at some point, the country is incredibly resilient to foreign influence (though very open to it, as if it has developed an immunity over the centuries through that contact and impulse). I feel maybe less like we have to struggle to pull it all back into the other direction, away from its commodification, and more that I'm just so joyed to have experienced its final decade, to have seen it, and be living in that afterglow. I still hope to preserve as much from those final generations, hoping the seeds of that beautiful art are thrown forward...but at least today I'm more in a state of appreciation and thankfulness. -
By Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu · Posted
Muay Thai Rules The commercial generalization of a diverse art and sport into codified rules (legalization), is not entirely unlike AI generalizing living language into patterns...without actually understanding language. It moves from the specifically general, to the generally specific, via algorithm. This is to say that the specificity of a verdant expression, a concratized variety, then becomes refined as a specific generalization (a governing rule, laws), for the purposes of export, rules/laws not really involved in the generation of the concretized variety itself. Relevant graphic: -
By Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu · Posted
At times I think to myself "now, is a good time to dig into Sylvie's record". It's found here on Google Sheets, with links to every fight, estimated weights of opponents, details and notes. It's one of the most comprehensive and thorough public records of fighting in Thailand ever, if not the most. The reason why I occasionally find myself cycling back into it is that its a record like no other in the history of Muay Thai fighting in the world, especially among female fighters, so it is quite hard to assess. Comparison is how we like to values and in many ways Sylvie's record is without comparison. Also, if the work is not done, the story is not written, it will fall to forgetting, and sport survives through remembrance. One of the biggest issues of comparison is just its sheer size. She is coming on 300 fights fought. She likely holds the record for most documented fights fought by a female fighter (an amateur boxer, I'm sorry I don't have her name at hand) is very close to the same. She definitely is the female fighter with the most documented pro fights, regardless of combat sport, there isn't really a somewhat second place (that I know of). And, most of her opponents are opponents you would never hear of unless you are extremely knowledgeable about Thailand female Muay Thai (from 2012-present), about as niche a combat sport knowledge as there is. Far from international coverage there are 1,000s upon 1,000s of Muay Thai fights fought, not near the capital, as Thailand is the home of Muay Thai and fighting in the sport is culturally robust. Each region has local champions or elite fighters, many of which would not find their way to Bangkok (particularly before the recent rise of Entertainment Muay Thai and Soft Power initiatives); there is an entire network of side-bet (gambling) fighting throughout the provinces, in their cities, towns and wats. Some of these female fighters find their way to Bangkok, increasingly now they do, but in the years Sylvie was most active many did not. So, we are left with a relatively unknown reservoir of talent which does not register on the common Western fan's radar. So, what I did was take out all fighters in Sylvie's record who have not reached Western awareness (including only those that also would have, anachronistically). The list is of all fighters who have at one time, before or after Sylvie has fought them, been World Champions for International orgs (incl: WBC, WPMF, WMC, WMO, IFMA). These are fighters who at one point were regarded as the best in their weight class in the World. 39 times Sylvie has fought these one-time World Champions. Below records her opponents and her record against them. 18 fighters in all. Sylvie von Duuglas-Ittu vs World Champions *adding to this Sylvie's 3 World Titles (WBC, IPCC 2x) The second difficulty in assessing Sylvie's record is that unless any female fighter (likely in history) she has fought well out of her weight class, sometimes 3 or 4 weight classes up. In her voracious drive to fight as much as possible she took fights that just no other officially managed fighter would take. Because she grew within the sub-culture and its language she was able to operate like a free-agent, booking her own fights. Because she was not represented by a powerful gym, or a powerful promotion, she could take fights that would be far outside the possibility of opportunity for others. This makes comparison with other female fighters extremely difficult, simply because nobody else has done this. There was a bold (and beautiful) challenge of Smilla Sundell for her belt by the excellent Allycia Rodrigues, fighting up a weight class (it may have been closer to two weight classes, as Smilla is large for her class, and Allycia seems modestly sized in hers). So much admiration for her to go for it. It's extremely rare for strong female fighters to fight opponents 2 or 3 weight classes up, even among Thais. Sylvie has done this regularly, not only against the talent pool of Thailand at large, but against World Champion skill-level opponents. In the graphic above there is also recorded a rough estimate of how many weight classes Sylvie was reaching up. Most often in Thailand (in part because Westerners are large-bodied, in part because Western friendly gyms have a lot of power in the fight-game), Western fighters are fighting down. Size advantages are quite common place in Thailand for the Western fighter. Sometimes its only a few pounds, sometimes its quite significant. This makes Sylvie size-charging even more difficult to assess. If she was managed in an official way most of the fights above would never been arranged. Gyms like to flex and get advantages for their fighters, and weight is one of the most common advantages pressed for. So, leave aside for a moment all of Sylvie's other fights, and just look at these 42 (including her own 3 World Titles). Notably, these are not champions derived from a single organization or promotion (sometimes champions can be produced out of very small fighter pools), these are champions recognized by different selection processes and politics, a cross-section of the sport. This is an unparalleled collection of challenge, and if she had only fought these fights, especially given the weight differences, it would likely count as the most difficult female Muay Thai record in history, fighting a whose who of a generation of female Muay Thai fighters within 3 weight classes. Again and again Sylvie took the very steep climb, getting into the ring against fighters, many of which she would not be favored again. 42 fights in generations past would be considered a decent career total for a Western female fighter. No, Sylvie did not fight each of these fighters when they were World Champions, that is not even concievably possible, they were not champions at the same time, and fighters ebb and flow in skill quality, but this remains a meaningful cross-section of female fighters, each of which have reached the peak of at least one org's measure of elite. Sylvie vs Internationally Ranked and Local Stadium Champions The additional list below shows the same fights individually, but also includes fighters who have been recognized by International organizations, ranked at some time by the WBC, WPMF, WMC or WMO. This list also includes local stadium champions, most of these drawn from Chiang Mai. Chiang Mai at the time when Sylvie did most of her fighting up there was a haven for female fighting because there was a female Thai stadium scene that was quite organized, and not for the Western tourist. Kob Cassette who ran the Muay Siam Northern Chapter, and the Thaphae stadium fight scene, specifically steered the scene away from Thai vs farang matchups, limiting such fights to only one on a card. Thais mostly fought Thais for the stadium belt, because they were working to build a Thai female Muay Thai legitimacy in the North. (In fact, Sylvie beat Faa Chiang Rai for the Northern 105 lb Muay Siam belt, but was stripped of it after she won it because it should only belong to a Thai). This is to say, these belts were seriously organized, primarily reflecting the best of the region among Thais. These were not the kinds of stadium belts that rotate among various fighters in tourism Muay Thai of other cities. The reason for including stadium champions though, aside from just respect for Thais in the Muay Thai of their own culture, is that these champions would in fact be ranked now, in today's leading procedures. The way that rankings of Thais work for orgs like the WBC is that knowledgeable Thai headhunters and promoters help inform the committee who is top in the country. This is extremely difficult and shifting knowledge in Thailand, and orgs that rank Thais in an updated fashion really need to be commended, but, this is to say, a Chiang Mai stadium champion of Sylvie's era in Chiang Mai would definitely be ranked by this process...now. So the list accurately captures a cross-section of fighter quality as it has been recognized by international orgs, or would be. These are all recognized fighters. There are some supremely good opponents in the rolls below, which could easily have been World Champion if given enough opportunity, fighters worthy of special mention like Gaewdaa (as sharp as any at 45 kg), Jomkwan (who in her prime when Sylvie fought her was as good as anyone she has faced), Muangsingjiew (Sawsing's cousin) so skilled, such a fighter, Thaksaporn (so tough). Adding up all lists these are, in total 149 fights. This total alone would be more documented fights than any Western fighter in Thailand, or more documented pro fights by a female Muay Thai fighter...in history. And all opponents recognized for their quality on an International standard. The entire collection of opponents, leaving aside the repeated weight disadvantages, is unheard of in female Muay Thai fighting. It's maybe 3 prolific female fighters records, combined in a single fighter, none of it of unknown fighters on a Western scale...and Sylvie has 125 more fights not on this list, made of fighters you might never have heard of, unless you were in those communities. But this doesn't mean that they also are unworthy. The interesting thing about Sylvie's record is that because she was not being booked by a powerful gym or being promoted by a promotion, almost all her fight matchups were created within the Muay Thai community, according to what seemed an equitable pairing. Nobody is punching down because nobody is exercising power on Sylvie's behalf. Each of these is a someone who has dedicated herself to her sport. This is the primary reason why Sylvie has fought up so often, and so much. It was regarded that notable weight disadvantages leveled the playing field. The community of Muay Thai regarded as these matchups as worth making, and Sylvie is almost always fighting up against these fighters. You never are going to get adequate one-for-one record comparisons within the sport of female Muay Thai. Female fighters follow different paths, and politics and opportunity combine to present distinct pools of fighters to face. And with the rise of Entertainment Muay Thai it is easy to think that the small pools of a single promotion's fighters may represent quality on the world scale (they might!), but fighter pools remain diverse and separated, generally speaking. Each prolific and great female fighter has told her own wonderful story in the pools she has been able to reach. Just because you may not have heard of a fighter doesn't mean that they lack quality. They might, but they also may be incredibly skilled...this happens all the time in Thailand, because the fighting is so widespread in the culture. Multiple times Sylvie, who has been about as aware of who the best female fighters in the world are as anyone, has been shocked by the skills of someone she faced who seemed to come out of nowhere. And, in Thailand, it is not completely uncommon to show up to a fight against an unknown fighter, only to find out that a World Champion (literally one of the best fighters in the world) has been subbed in, or is appearing under another name. No lights show, no fancy stadium, and you are facing one of the best in the world. Sylvie has fought so much, and so many opponents (now approaching 150 different Thai fighters), that she's learned that Entertainment shows, and org rankings are all drawing on the very same opponent pool that she is fighting. And often its Sylvie facing someone that puts them on the Entertainment radar. This is to say, let Sylvie's record be what it is...wonderful. A tremendous celebration of the female fighting of Thailand, especially of Thai female fighters...it is their sport, we are only privileged to be a part of it. As much as we Westerners would like to lay claim to achievement, what we have come to learn is that Thai female fighters are the best at muay of their country, the muay of their culture, the muay of their people. It's great to be exporting the sport, and building enthusiasm and passion for it around the world, but it all needs to start with respect for the Thai fighter, the fighter who knows it better than anyone else. You can find a spreadsheet of the above 149 fights of Sylvie's Record here. And the Complete Record of Sylvie's Fights is here (with links to video of - nearly - every single fight). We from the beginning have not only sought to be as transparent as possible about our experiences, we also have worked hard at documenting every single fight that we could, because the whole thing is a testament...not to Sylvie, but to all of Thailand's female Muay Thai. Sylvie video record captures the Muay Thai of more than a generation of female Muay Thai fighting in Thailand, including fighters of importance, passion and skill that may not yet or even been swept up in the Western media gaze, and so many who have been. It is an archive of female muay...that's why we record, that why we post and organize it all. You honor your opponents when you name them, and record their efforts in anyway, when you send their passion and commitment forward to the eyes of others. Also...and not less than this, Sylvie's commitment has been to the belief that the best way to love Muay Thai, and to know Muay Thai, is by fighting. She realized early on that generally belts meant very little compared to the actual experience of fighting itself. Fight everyone, fight often, that is the only way to come in contact, intimately, with the art and sport itself. Have those experiences. Each and every time you come out of a fight transformed, changed, grown. Take challenges, fight up! Each fight is precious, and this is the same feeling she has coming up on 300. If you think you are good at 50 fights, try 75, try 100, you'll be better, you'll know something more, something else. You'll love the art and sport more. The documentation of it all, is about that. This isn't to say that if you fight in other ways, under other standards of excellence, in different fighter pools, you are less great or wonderful. There are so many ways of fighting, of measuring, competing, becoming recognized, and fighters and their teams necessarily compare themselves. That's all good, its part of the passion. This is just to present this one wonderful example, hopefully to inspire this kind of fighting, if only a little bit.
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The Latest From Open Topics Forum
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In my experience, 1 pair of gloves is fine (14oz in my case, so I can spar safely), just air them out between training (bag gloves definitely not necessary). Shinguards are a good idea, though gyms will always have them and lend them out- just more hygienic to have your own. 2 pairs of wraps, 2 shorts (I like the lightweight Raja ones for the heat), 1 pair of good road running trainers. Good gumshield and groin-protector, naturally. Every time I finish training, I bring everything into the shower (not gloves or shinnies, obviously) with me to clean off the (bucketsfull in my case) of sweat, but things dry off quickly here outside of the monsoon season. One thing I have found I like is smallish, cotton briefs for training (less cloth, therefore sweaty wetness than boxers, etc.- bring underwear from home- decent, cotton stuff is strangely expensive here). Don't weigh yourself down too much. You might want to buy shorts or vests from the gym(s) as (useful) souvenirs. I recommend Action Zone and Keelapan, next door, in Bangkok (good selection and prices): https://www.google.com/maps/place/Action+Zone/@13.7474264,100.5206774,17z/data=!4m14!1m7!3m6!1s0x30e29931ee397e41:0x4c8f06926c37408b!2sAction+Zone!8m2!3d13.7474212!4d100.5232523!16s%2Fg%2F1hm3_f5d2!3m5!1s0x30e29931ee397e41:0x4c8f06926c37408b!8m2!3d13.7474212!4d100.5232523!16s%2Fg%2F1hm3_f5d2?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTAyOS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D -
Hey! I totally get what you mean about pushing through—it can sometimes backfire, especially with mood swings and fatigue. Regarding repeated head blows and depression, there’s research showing a link, especially with conditions like CTE (Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy). More athletes are recognizing the importance of mental health alongside training. -
If you need a chill video editing app for Windows, check out Movavi Video Editor. It's super easy to use, perfect for beginners. You can cut, merge, and add effects without feeling lost. They’ve got loads of tutorials to help you out! I found some dope tips on clipping videos with Movavi. It lets you quickly cut parts of your video, so you can make your edits just how you want. Hit up their site to learn more about how to clip your screen on Windows and see how it all works. -
Hi all, I am fortunate enough to have the opportunity to be traveling to Thailand soon for just over a month of traveling and training. I am a complete beginner and do not own any training gear. One of the first stops on my trip will be to explore Bangkok and purchase equipment. What should be on my list? Clearly, gloves, wraps, shorts and mouthguard are required. I would be grateful for some more insight e.g. should I buy bag gloves and sparring gloves, whether shin pads are worthwhile for a beginner, etc. I'm partiularly conscious of the heat and humidity, it would make sense to pack two pairs of running shoes, two sets of gloves, several handwraps and lots of shorts. Any nuggets of wisdom are most welcome. Thanks in advance for your contributions! -
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