Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu
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Posts posted by Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu
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I think Charlie Hustle got this right, and he got it wrong. The UFC took off because it tapped into both the absurdist passion of Pro Wrestling and the toe-to-toe tough man combat of western boxing. Muay Thai really has none of that. Muay Thai can't become the standup version of the UFC. It isn't what it is. I do think though that it won't grow if you don't know the fighters. Too many fighters hide their tape, hide their personalities, let gyms and promotions do their speaking for them. The one thing that always sells is human stories, people doing something they dream. But western Muay Thai fighters are too busy...more or less...pecking at other fighters and gyms on Facebook and elsewhere, hiding their tape so they can boast about unseen accomplishments, or inflate minor records by not being studied. They should be busy telling their story, and telling the story of other fighters too. The pie is WAY too small to be fighting over the tiny pieces of attention that anyone is getting. Grow the pie. There is no other way.
Promotionally Muay Thai should be emphasizing it's Thai-ness (yes, it's exotic qualities, that's how "Kung Fu" grew in popular culture) and extolling the lives of western Muay Thai fighters.
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Hi Kevin
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Ganesha is an interesting character.
I have a question, for you or Sylvie - do you think martial arts or fighting is unique in its capacity to build a higher body?
The reason I ask this is because if it isn't, if there any other less damaging ways to do so, why wouldn't Sylvie do that? Sylvie do you need to break yourself over and over again? And when is it enough? When will you know when your higher house is complete? What if it never feels complete? Do you keep breaking yourself over and over again until you're destroyed?
These are some of the questions I had when reading the article.
These are really good questions Gavin. Maybe Sylvie can hop in and answer from her own perspective, but from what I see, yes, generally you can build a higher body any number of ways...but, in instances of where your body was broken through violence the fighting arts (and fighting) seems to have a very privileged place. The reason for this is - at least how I intuit it - that the arena of the art, and not just the ring, but the very "stuff" of the art, is composed of the "stuff" that wounded you. If you nearly drowned, learning to breath underwater might have a special place for you. That is what the fighting arts are for some. They teach freedom of movement under the pressures and states that are likely deeply associated with what broke you. Of course each person is on a different path, but generally I feel that this is what is at play. It takes the stuff of wounding and weaves a new cloth.
As to "when" the higher body is completed, I'm not sure at all. But when I ran these ideas past Sylvie she responded strongly to the fact that Ganesha could not stop until all the verses were written. There is a driving duty almost to see the task through. One assumes that when the verses are written one knows. Whether this is an act of destruction or not, I think the fighter can feel that. Sylvie is, from my view, after 111 fights in Thailand, much less destroyed, much more free than before. Things break, but the arc is upward. The art, and the fighting is elevating. You can feel the liberty and growth as it is happening, even as you become more critical of what you want to accomplish.
But I am sure that there are ballet dancers who have composed a higher body for themselves, and writers, and poets, and skateboarders. musicians, photographers, mountaineers. In a certain sense I think for some fighters fighting has chosen them, it is not something they would ever have chosen fighting. Sylvie never wanted to fight. Then once fighting, even though she loved it she never imagined to fight a great deal. But then the fire took hold, a fire of transformation I think. It is very hard to judge the burning of the fire from the outside, other than to say that something is definitely burning there, and it is making such a beautiful light.
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It was where he trained before coming to the states, so getting in probably wouldn't be an issue. I'm just trying to figure out I can expect. Thank you so much for your help!
Hey Kaitlin, things can be very different for females than they are for males in more Thai-oriented gyms. A western male might not even think about or realize how different it could be for a serious female. Anything from lack of clinching opportunities, non-clinching, or inappropriate clinching, to getting less padwork, or just not being taken seriously as a fighter (not given fight opportunities), or less sparring can happen. Not say that any of this will happen, but the more "Thai" or "authentic" a gym is, the more unknown a female training experience might be. The gym could be great for you, just like it was for your trainer. Just keep an open mind that you won't know until you get there and see for yourself. Even the experience of another western woman at such a gym, might not be telling, if they don't share your same aims or personal qualities.
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I wanted to post my guest post here: Broken Tusk: Breaking the Body and the Art of Fighting because I think this is a really deep topic and possibly there is a lot to be talked about here. The idea is that the fighting arts compose a kind of graphic system that can be used to express an inherent beauty in violence, and that the pursuit of fighting arts, in that they are arts, and in that they verge towards a real violence, can be used to restore bodies and spirits that have been broken. In fact, through fighting the body can be built as a "higher" body, and higher house, a higher vehicle, by analogy.
An excerpt:
...Sylvie’s “house of the spirit” doesn’t really exist any longer, not in any sense that we often assume someone to have one. Her house of the spirit, her body, was broken that day of multiple violations. Her spirit has no dependable house, no real protective shell. Since she was 11 she has been living in the ruins of her body-house, and as the human spirit is both beautiful and adaptable she has learned to live in those ruins. She can hide in them, in the broken pieces, use the shadows, the crevices, the places people don’t think to look. She learned since that young age to be in the ruins, of a kind.
What Sylvie is doing in Thailand – for all those who don’t get (or worse, approve of) what she is doing – is building a higher house, or one can just as easily say, a higher body to replace the broken house/body she has had for all these years. This is why she strains and breaks herself over and over and over, reaching up to the promise of calm in the onslaught of violence. And like Genesha she cannot stop until the epic is written. This is why the Art of Muay Thai is a salvation and even a duty, the calm she sees in the bodies and faces of so many Thais that have fought since a young age – the poise, the balance, the grace, the ease – it calls her. This attempt is the most beautiful thing I’ve ever seen in my life.
I'd love to hear the experiences and thoughts of others. So many focus on the violence of the real fighting arts and imagine a motive of something between aggression and rage. But to me the fighting arts, when pursued, are something so different. They compose a base language, and a writing system that uses the broken edges of the body as its instrument.
In the article I draw the analogy of the myth of Ganesha, and his broken tusk:
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Hello everyone,
I am wondering if any of you have experience training at Sitjaopho camp in Hua Hin...I am having some second thoughts about the gym that I originally thought of going to (Samart Payakaroon ' s gym in Bangkok) so I was hoping to hear some thoughts from people with recent experience at either of the two gyms...If you had to choose between the two, which one would you choose and why? As a female, I want to choose a gym where I can get quality training, so I'm find it a bit more difficult settling on a particular gym without any prior experience there.
Thank you
We have had no experience with gyms in Hua Hin, but since you are down there (are you there yet?) have you looked at Por Promin? Sylvie fought a girl from Por Promin, and one of the owners of the gym is a western woman, Miriam. Because you are a woman it seems to have some qualities that would produce positives for women, and I've seen lots of females training there in photos on Facebook. Miriam was very nice, and we could put you in touch with her.
By and large though, if you are having doubts about a gym you are at in Thailand you should I think move on and try something different. There are so many. If you haven't gotten to Thailand yet, if you do go to Hua Hin there seem to be several gyms to try out.
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It turns out that Haru Tajima was the subject of a tv show leading into her last fight. There are some clips from the fight at the end.
Turns out she is a teacher at a women's college.
It was great to see those clips of the fight. Looks like Duangdaonoi wasn't physically very strong, and out-weighed by a significant amount though too. She probably is a 100 lb fighter, not 105 lb (which doesn't help). And nice to see Haru as a teacher and see a little of her fight style. Great share Charlie.
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I know Sylvie takes BCAAs, and has had varying experiences with them. At some point a huge difference. She said when first taking them last year "This is the first time I'm not sore in two years". Trying to get her to write about them. Hopefully she'll jump on this thread.
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Those are some 2 of his photos of Erika and 1 of Rena
Brilliant. Love these.
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All of the pictures on his blog he took himself
I'm realizing that now. Pretty impressive! Must go to every show. Is he a sports journalist?
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Did not even realize that LadyGo was a photographer. I thought a blogger.
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You think is ok like this? Will they allow me to hold pads?
This would be highly unusual from what little I've seen. But Thailand is also pretty unexpected. You can always ask.
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I think you read it wrong, I wasn't saying they aren't racist because Buakaw is dark. I was saying I just found it weird they don't judge him for it.
Please read it again, rather than jumping the gun as I don't understand where I said 'Thai's aren't racist' nor did I imply it either. :mellow:
Fair enough, my bad. I was just surprised that you felt that what Thais say out loud to you somehow would reflect their feelings about race. I've never heard any Thais talk about the skin color of well-known people - other than Master K making a joke about Buakaw's name - but I didn't think that was weird. I just assumed that because I don't speak Thai and don't engage in long conversations it was never something that would come up. And more than this, when I think about it, I'm not even sure I've heard Americans judge Michael Jordan for being black, and I'm American, which is really the point I should have done a better job expressing. I do wonder how he is viewed, and in fact how all people of some celebrity from Isaan are viewed.
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... he's recognized in K1 and other circles as well as an icon.
I do wonder what Buakaw's image is among the core Thai Muay Thai community. He's a huge name in the west because of his K-1 success, and much of his media seems very western oriented - the face grimace, etc. Though he also puts up a lot of nationalist imagery too (flags, military). He hasn't fought a Thai in almost a decade, and I've been told by at least one person close to the fight game that if he fought a real Thai fighter now he wouldn't stand a chance. He's such an interesting case because of how he broke from his gym, isn't a Muay Thai fighter proper, and is ethnically so dark. Maybe he is like a kind of movie star, who doesn't make movies.
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I find this weird because like one of the major icons of Thailand is Buakaw and he's sooo dark, and I've never heard a Thai judge his skin.
That would be like saying that America isn't racist because Michael Jordan and so many other major sports heroes are black. Or even because whites were pulling for Joe Louis against Max Schmeling in 1938.
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Kevin, why is it political? I don't quite get it :( I get that it's funny, but why political?
To me it is done in the aesthetic of political cartoons. But I also think it has a political tinge in that westerners, and I am one, see all those constants and just give up, but it's asking for kind of humanization, treating her as a person. What is ironic about it is that she's depicted as a non-person, a robot, which is how UFC fans try to depict her, describing her in extra-human or sub-human terms: a force of nature, a beast, so technical, a machine. Fight fantasy has a whole sci-fi, geekdom feel about it, nerdy dudes buying PPV, and in video game mode mentally. It's funny, and meaningful, to ask that people spell your name right. But hey, that's what came to mind for me. I think it's brilliant.
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I talked with a thai kru in italy, he told me that the way to become a kru in thailand is so much more difficult, he had to stay im the gym for more than a year I think, and fight at least 5 times for the gym and win 3, then there is the exam. (Something like that)
what do you know about that?
A few western oriented gyms have Kru (trainer) certification, like Master Toddy's, but 99.999% of trainers in Thailand are not certified, and they aren't called Kru typically. "Kru" just means "teacher" in Thai, it isn't a special title like in other martial arts. It can be used, but in most circumstances it isn't. There are traditions and Kru formalities in older, Boran-type, circumstances, but gyms aren't really like that now, at least in the way that people think. I have no idea what your Italian friend did, but this isn't really the way that most of Thai gyms operate at all.
Trainers are just ex-fighters, or Thai people with passion about the sport. There is nothing formal about it. They are paid a pretty low wage.
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So is it possible to both training, fighting and holding pads, in a gym that doesn't know you, getting a discount on training? I would really enjoy it so I can stay there long time, and when I'll come back in italy I can make some money out of that.
I've never seen someone train and also be paid to be a trainer, and I've seen both Petchruangrung and WKO. The first difficulty would be that pad holders aren't paid a lot of money generally, and tend to work long hours. But the bigger difficulty is that the few times I have seen westerners hold and train these were people who had been with the gym for very long time. They were part of the gym family. This takes a while.
That being said, Master Toddy's in Bangkok does have a trainers program, and I do know that he was looking for trainers at one point for a new gym that he had opened. Maybe contact Emma at Under the Ropes for more on that?
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Pretty awesome political cartoon of Jedrzejczyk from her FB page.
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I heard Joanna talking about JoJo having some private stuff to deal with during the UFC Fight Night Cracow...
I think I had read that two things had happened. The first that Jojo had been in a romantic relationship with her trainer for a long time, and that this ended. And also that Jojo had experienced something that sounded inappropriate during her training camp just before Cracow. This is just from memory, not sure I got all that right.
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Haha yeah I feel USA is kinda getting into a Joanna-hype, but I'm sooo happy for her, that she has her time to shine!
Do completely agree, great to see. Everyone expected JoJo to be the Muay Thai breakthough fighter. I was really pulling for her, loved her attitude in the house, admittedly a highly edited version of reality. In a strange way Joanna has become the anti-JoJo, fulfilling the promise. I wonder if they will ever fight? Jojo's strength appears to be knee fighting and it's unsure if Joanna Champion can defend that. But Jojo seems a very forwards and back fighter, something Joanna might eat up. Still, a fight I've love to see one day, if only for the world of female Muay Thai.
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She has opted for the Fedor Emelianenko kick,' I know people like to refer to kicks punches and sh*t like they belong to someone, but in reality this is used so much in kickboxing/thai/mma it's just a variation, and I read a post stating, there's no right way to throw a leg kick; it's correct because it depends what you're trying to achieve with it.
I think Jack Slack is kind of awesome, some of the best MMA writing in general. He draws from lots of historical source, puts things in wide context, etc. But his treatment of Joanna is a little over the top. I think UFC people are kind of drunk on her success, a lot of it coming from her fighting somewhat physically smaller opponents without much striking skill. I'll completely agree that the Fedor kick analysis was an example of this over analysis:
"Jedrzejczyk has to consider that a caught low kick, even perfectly landed, is bad news for her. Consequently she has opted for the Fedor Emelianenko kick, almost upwards and forwards more than it is about turning the hip over."
The impression he gives is that she had some how adopted this kick as some kind of MMA compromise to avoid being taken down. But this is the same same kick she used, very ineffectively, against Duannapa in Thailand, in a Muay Thai fight. She's a low-kicker, she's not avoiding the takedown by adopting a special kick.
I don't know, people get carried away.
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Later, I went running alone on that same road and passed a group of police offices at the same spot where he'd been stopped. Not only did they not stop me, but one officer actually gave me thumbs up and shouted 'very good' at me as I ran by.
All I can say is "wow" Emma. Very tough.
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I can't tell you how many times students of mine have made racist comments in my classes. It happens all the time...
...My boyfriend is black, and we do get a lot of looks when we walk around in public. One student told me 'they don't look because they're racist. They look because it's something different'. A woman once got up and moved when he sat down next to her on the train, and there's no excuse for that. It's awful. He definitely feels very unwelcome in Thailand.
Emma, it means a lot to hear real world examples like this. I think it is very hard for us in the west to interpret Thai racism towards dark skin. Part of this is that it comes from a different set of social circumstances (the whiteness is the whiteness of Chinese skin much more than it is of Caucasian skin, for instance), but the symbols and concepts of derision seem straight out of some of the most backwards western racist thinking. I can't imagine what Tu experiences in Thailand.
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II also find it interesting that her turning dark skinned is portrayed in a positive way. It conflicts with what we hear in the Muay Thai community about light skin being considered desirable. At the same time it makes sense to me on a personal level because I think all skin tones have their own unique beauty that should all be celebrated.
As I pointed out, the woman's skin is turned black for a moment "enjoy your moment". And this ad is likely aimed at rebellious university students, it's attempting to shock, to reverse everything, to "break every rule". It would though be a big mistake to assume that black is generally desireable in Thai culture, or that Thais with darker skin are experiencing an social advantage in some way.
Dejrat Gym
in Gym Advice and Experiences
Posted
Yeah, this is what we noticed about Sakmongkol - don't know if you read Sylvie's post. When he trained Sylvie in clinch in Colorado we were really surprised that there were zero issues about clinch instruction. Everything was free and easy. But when he then trained Sylvie in Thailand, even in an empty gym, everything changed. If there had been Thais around it would have been very problematic. There are all sorts of hierarchy and gender elements going in Thai gyms. This isn't to say that they aren't workable, but they are there. Many times Sylvie has been told "no problem" by Thais, and genuinely so, but still even in gyms where she is well-established she has to fight and strain for both clinch and sparring, as a woman.
These things do tend to show themselves more over time though, and maybe less in the short term. It's just that this gym from the clip feels VERY Thai, which is great. In many ways though stepping into a more traditional Thai gym can be like stepping into the 1950s. But hey, these issues can show themselves in different ways in western friendly gyms too. Sounds like you've got a nice set up with a personal connection. That's a great start. Can't wait to hear about your experience there.