[Narration In Thai Scoring - How Missed Strikes Can Benefit You, and Other Magic]

A lot of deserved attention is paid in the west to the scoring of individual strikes. Which strikes score, and why? Where did it land? Was it powerful, was it on balance, was it displacing? These are important qualities of Thai scoring which are not readily understandable to western eyes at times and Tony Myers has done an amazing job of clarifying these principles, leading the way toward more uniform and more Thai style scoring. I want to talk about an element of Muay Thai scoring that is less appreciated perhaps: How regularity works in relationship to reversal.

Narrative Arc - The Proving of the Past

I was watching Sylvie's latest fight against Faa Chiangrai, a Northern Champion she has now beaten 4 times in a row, and was thinking about the scoring in this fight. Faa has felt, more or less, that she's won most of these fights - or at least it is in her nature to protest - and this one was actually very close. What made the scoring really interesting to me is the role that early success and failure played in how later strikes are read. In a nutshell, Sylvie had taken a dominant lead with a power/knee game in the 3rd. Faa then started to control the distance better and landed kicks in the 4th to pull ahead. Starting the 5th Faa was well ahead in a narrative sense. She had been on top, but not dominantly so, when the fight was cresting in the 4th. All she had to do was maintain the impression of the 4th and she had it. The very pro-Thai, All-Thai audience of gamblers even had the odds 15-1, they were all betting on her. And then Sylvie landed this:

Now, this is the interesting thing. In order to understand the role this moment played in the scoring of the fight one has to know what happened before. There is nothing in this move/event that dictates its inherent value. First thing to understand is that visually this was by far the most dramatic/impactful move of the fight. If the fight had been filled with throws or drops it would have meant something else. Instead, the whole fight Sylvie had been trying to finish Faa off in the clinch and put her down to the canvas; and much of the fight Faa was trying to stymie Sylvie, and in the 4th it looks like she had too some degree solved Sylvie's power with movement, and had begun to score a little. But when this throwdown happened the entire illusion of Faa's control of Sylvie's power was broken - Sylvie's physicality suddenly re-appeared. All of the dominance of the 3rd round clinch game came back into play. In a single moment of the fight Faa's 4th round recovery and lead-taking was put into a new context.

This is the very un-western or at least un-modern nature of Thai scoring. Strikes are not blows that take away a fighter's vitality, like video game life bar points subtracted mathematically, which then are numerically compared in the end. It is instead a performance. A performance of skill, of heart, of Life. And as such story-telling is a significant part of the aesthetic and meaning of what is going on. A fighter can add points to his or her column throughout a fight. But there is a more important dimension to this kind of addition. The narrative of the fight must confirm the meaning of those added up points. The reason for this is that landed strikes are not numerical damage done (or, degree of difficulty wushu-like skill demos). They are demonstrations of dominance, the demonstrated control over the space around, and body of, your opponent. In fights you might very well show control over your opponent (dominance) through repeatedly landed strikes in a round, but if you are not able to maintain control over the space, the nature of that dominance comes under question. That is why later rounds are more important than earlier rounds, generally. In this particular fight Faa was able to cast some doubt on Sylvie's power game that looked so strong in the 3rd. She looked like she had come through it, began to control the space a little better, that it wasn't as effective as it appeared at the time. Only when Sylvie threw her to the ground in the final round did the promise of the 3rd round suddenly come to fruition. It wasn't an illusion after all.

How Missed Strikes Help, and Landed Strikes Hurt - Potential Dramatic Energy

So far I've been talking about a fight none of you have seen, so it probably hasn't been much help in establishing more universal principles or application. So let me take the counter-intuitive idea that missed strikes can help you, and landed strikes can hurt. One of the biggest focuses of attention in a fight in later rounds is looking for the reversal. It may be because audience gambling is so much woven into the fabric of Muay Thai in Thailand, but the shifting of fortunes (or powers) in a fight is really where the thrill or rush is for Thais, it is what raises Muay Thai up as a drama. Muay Thai at least in some buried, cultural sense is dramaturgic and thaumaturgic in nature. And because the eye is so sensitive to shifts in power or fortune any regularity that let's say is present in the first half or more of the fight is subject to meaningful and dramatic shift. When there is shift, there is emphasis. This means that if a fighter attempted to land a heavy cross over and over throughout the fight, and missed and missed and missed (the Thai fighter Thananchai fights like this), these are not just moments of ineptitude that count towards the proven impotence of the fighter, like so many demerits. They are also the build up of potential dramatic energy. In the very nature of narrative the questions begin to grow: Will the right cross eventually land?! If it lands will it be powerful, decisive? When the cross lands, heavily, late in the 4th round, suddenly everything comes alive. All those missed strikes grow into the promise that they implied. Now, a landed right hand after 15 misses does not win a fight, but it sets up a new context. The result of that excitement is that the fight can move into a phase of re-evaluation - it is in suspension. Suddenly everything that happened before that moment can be reconsidered. The onus on the cross fighter then is to suddenly prove the promise he just demonstrated. My rear hand just landed after all those misses, it was not a fluke. If he lands it again, and again, the tide of a fight can shift dramatically. Or, if he then suddenly brings in other weapons that indicate the aesthetic of power he was miming previously, this too can convince. It is not enough to just land something you missed repeated, but when you do positively break from a regularity you have bought yourself a ticket to a reevaluation moment. You are half way there to victory, a victory born of a sensitivity to shifts in efficacy and momentum. I've seen big leads erased rather quickly through the intensity created by the emphasis on reversal.

In this way a single strike landed, in the context of an already established pattern, can be far more potent in terms of dramatic narrative, then assorted strikes landed in a medley of attacks. It opens the door to a certain sort of perception and reevaluation.

The role of repeated strikes can work in the opposite direction as well. If you repeatedly land kicks to the body early in the fight (one of the more dependable scoring strikes in Thailand), and then later in the fight you start to be unable to do so (they start to be checked, or you start leaning back and hitting air) in terms of narrative your earlier prowess can certainly work against you instead of just acting like points added up in a bank. When the regularity is disrupted, in either direction, dramatic form calls everything into reconsideration. If you start landing those kicks again, let's say in the 5th round, all those earlier strikes can come right back into play - they have not been permanently erased. But the onus is on you to renew that regularity, to prove the dominance that they were previously indicating, or to provide a new regularity that redeems the previous one in some way.

Because the build up of potential dramatic energy works anytime there is a regularity, it can manifest itself in many areas of a fight. In fact it can manifest itself across fights when a fighter becomes known. A fighter like Thanonchai enters every fight with a "bank" of power punching regularity that can work for or against him in terms of narrative. A fighter like Yodwicha has the same in terms of clinch fighting. In a sense each fight for these fighters is a play off of that regularity, the attempt to produce the story of their dominance.

The Benefit of Legible Fighting Styles

Much is decried about the softer first two rounds of a Muay Thai fight in Thailand, but much of this is a play the fighters are having either with their own reputations (regularity) or with establishing expectation in the fight. When it is done right both fighters are setting up their independent stories, stories which will battle each other to be the "true" one. But I want to think about this entire narrative force in terms of strikes or styles chosen. It's not just "who is in the lead now" and "will they be able to hold it". It's what regularities are being set up, how is the principle of reversal being observed. A lot of western Muay Thai fighters in Thailand - at least that I've seen - do not have very legible fighting styles. By this I mean they do not seem to feel the importance of demonstrated dominance through repetition and readable tactics. Instead they often attempt to demonstrate their skill, the quality of their techniques (or their power) in a variety of fighting approaches. They may start out with a basic approach, but often by the 4th round it looks more and more just like "fighting" - drawing on whatever weapons that occur to them from their arsenal. The reason for this, if my observations are sound, is that the mentality is more one of scoring, and in scoring, often it is scoring as "damage done". It's a math of damage. Or, in some cases, western fighters are trying to just "demo" various techniques, showing how "Thai" they are in their balance and form. But often western fighters don't have a legible fighting approach, a sense in which strikes produce expectations. You want judges and audience to perceive regularities. Yes they are showing heart, yes they may even be showing sound technique, but it cannot be easily read from a perspective of reversal. Thai fighters on the other hand, just to generalize, have a much more legible approach. You can see where the early regularities are in a fight. As a striking tactic is attempted over and over its potential dramatic energy is built up. Will it succeed? I think for this reason there is a benefit for fighters to repeat strikes or tactical approaches, to increase the legibility of their fighting for judges.

The Change in Tactics - Reversal of Fortune

Due to the nature of regularity and reversal the power of reversal does not just play out in a single element of a fight. It is not just whether a cross lands after multiple misses. One of the more common narrative plays is the change in tactics. A fighter fights in one way for let's say 3 rounds with only middling success, and then in the 4th changes tactics and becomes dominant. This is for instance how clinch fighting is often used, to demonstrate dominance and power that was only promised previously in other ways: something to create the reversal from the regularity before. It isn't just the case of: "well, that didn't work, let me try this". Most of the time this is a narrative approach, one that builds up a regularity for the benefit of reversal. One of our favorite fighters JR (who fights in China) would start out Orthodox for two rounds or so, and then switch to his more natural, powerful Lefty - perhaps just a gimmick, but for him it is about narrative fighting, building in a reversal from a switch. If you are not fighting with regularities you may be missing out from some of the dramatic potential that is essential to Thai scoring.

Of course you can try to fight without pattern. If you are a virtuoso you can play above the fight, and let the regularity of your superiority become the storyline, but appreciation of pattern fighting is most of the time an essential component of Thai aesthetics. Because of the importance of legibility if you are fighting and you've missed your last 10 strikes, you are probably in a much better position if most of those strikes were of an identifiable approach, than if they were 10 different kinds of strikes with no readability. The first builds up potential dramatic energy, ready for the reversal, the other just looks like incoherent impotence. The first invites either the future cashing in on those kinds of strikes (will they eventually land?), or a change in tactics that calls attention to a moment of reversal, the second allows almost no firm dramatic way forward, no quality of contrast.

[Sitmonchai Gym Question - Price and Offering]

I didn't realize that Sitmonchai Gym was so expensive, but I got to say that when Sylvie and I visited there we were pretty impressed. Sylvie wrote this post about the gym:

The Best Muay Thai Gym in Thailand? A Video Tour of Sitmonchai Gym

 

Maybe some of what she has to say there answers some of your questions. All in all it seemed like a self-enclosed little Muay Thai gym world there. A balance between great instruction, lots of Thai fighters, serious students/clients, good people. A lot of top gyms seem to have a big divide between the "Thai" gym and the "Farang" gym. They exist side-by-side, but in different worlds with different motivations. Somehow it felt to me like Sitmonchai has been able to blend these together in a unique way.

I do remember that they never have farang spar with farang, that you are always working against a Thai. They appear to keep a big staff to make sure that is possible.

[chuwattana gym vs EminentAir?]

Dejrat looks appealing though accommodation may be and issue

 

Kaitlin Young just spent a month there, living in the house. I think she mentioned that there were rooms to be had not far from the gym too. If you need help figuring it out maybe she can give insight. She's on Twitter and FB. Sylvie can help you with Thai if you need to ask a question of their FB page.

[chuwattana gym vs EminentAir?]

I've heard Eminent Air is pretty expensive for what it offers, and while it used to be a go-to gym for many long termers we knew that trend seems to have changed a little. Hopefully someone else can hop in with actual knowledge of the situation, but thought I'd add this:

It's a completely different part of the country, but Lamnamoon sounds very interesting, based on the things you are looking for.

Also, a hidden little gym that gets very little coverage in English is Dejrat Gym in Bangkok. We visited there last month, and Sylvie did some work on pads and in private. Arjan Surat is extremely Old School, very correcting. He's the head coach of the Thai National Team, and is no-nonsense, but also seems very big hearted.

People looking at Chuwattana and Eminent Air tend to be looking for the "authentic" Thai Gym experience, and Dejrat is definitely that. But it is very small (physically). They do focus on clinch, from what we were told.

You read a little about the gym here.

Here is a little of their sparring:

Here is a video walk through:

I know neither answers your question, but more information is better than less. Might as well throw it out there.

[The End of Female Muay Thai (the Muay of Thailand)?]

Samart put out a video on youtube where he said the Thai scoring is set up to benefit gamblers(easy to throw a fight by losing balance, etc) and leads to fights which only show off some of Muay Thai's beautiful weapons(way more kicks and knees than punches and elbows).

 

Regarding the problems of gambling and it ruining Muay Thai in Thailand, I just don't buy it. The reason I don't by it is that in the Golden Age Muay Thai was basically run by huge, powerful mafia. The grip over Muay Thai was so strong that there were assassination attempts (shootings, a bombing) at Lumpinee. Gambling was the promotional bedrock of the greatest Muay Thai we've known, it's not a suddenly strong influence - gambling is likely expressing something within the culture, not artificially imposing something. This is probably a very nuanced history, but great fighters of the Golden Age notoriously lost their careers by throwing fights.

But staying focused on female Muay Thai, female Muay Thai in Thailand has its own short, minor history and sub-culture. One of the things we seemed to glean from the gamblers in female MT matchups, is that gamblers love Sylvie because she fights. And she fights hard. There seems to be a sense from at least some Thais that as female Thai fighters adopt a very "femur" (technical) fighting style, lots of retreat, point-scoring kicks, evasion, that they aren't really fighting. Even though Sylvie is a clinch fighter, some Thais seem to read this as real fighting, forcing the Thai fighter to fight. The technical approach, at least among female fighters, can be read as anti-fighting. If I would guess, this may also be how many Thai female fighters are viewed in Japan (or China), as anti-fighters, fighters who won't fight, in promotions where aggression is esteemed. I think that some of this same thirst for "real fighting" also exists at the level of male Muay Thai too. I think that's why shows like Thai Fight and Max Muay Thai are having wide televised audience success - these are often circus-like shows, but very popular, and their popularity should be telling us something. They are offering "aggression" in contrast to the more controlled fighting style of traditional Muay Thai. This may also be key to why MMA is starting to take a small foothold in younger generations. I'm not saying that this is a good thing, but I really don't think that the economic decline of Muay Thai in Thailand is because there aren't enough techniques being shown at Lumpinee. It may be even the opposite. Technical fighting may not have widespread appeal.

The power vs technique question has been a long running one, and I'm sure it goes much further back than when Samart lost to Dieselnoi who just clinched and kneed, a loss that still probably stings. But this is why I say that in particular to female Muay Thai, the style of Muay Thai in Thailand, for women, may be in a precarious place. It is caught up in this much wider march towards power fighting and aggression, which is really typified by the International populist ethos of MMA, and its various step-child promotions of kickbox striking.

[The End of Female Muay Thai (the Muay of Thailand)?]

Muay Thai of Thailand in the West

When Caley Reece retired I mentioned to her that with her probably passes the last high profile western female fighter who fights in what might be termed a "Thai style" in that she is both a crisp fighter with Thai techniques who also strongly favors clinch and fought professional Muay Thai - at the time it was very hard to think of another female fighter like this. Tiffany van Soest, who carried the torch of Muay Thai stardom in America was really a Karate style fighter who fought under (and succeeded in) Muay Thai rules. In fact I recall that after some difficulty in the ring Tiffany said she had to get back to her Karate roots. Iman Barlow, who also vies for the unspoken title of "best female Muay Thai fighter in the World" doesn't really fight Muay Thai rules any longer (2 Muay Thai fights in the last 2 years), instead fighting very frequently for K1 style Enfusion, along with many other top talents. I'm also not quite sure how "Thai" her style is, in the sense that she prefers not to fight in Thailand, and fights with great pressure and aggression. Anissa Meksen, another top Muay Thai western name, fights from a very heavy Savate background (11 years Savate champion). Jorina Baars is very Dutch in her style. Clinch fighters like Teressa Wintermyr are nearing the end of their careers, and now that Tiffany is moving onto MMA, likely to the UFC (with a brief stop over in Glory/Invicta), and with the UFC absorbing big names like Valentina Shevchenko, or turning Jedrzejczyk into a name, there is a real sense that as much as female Muay Thai seems to be growing, in a strange way the western female Muay Thai of Thailand (Thai-style) is ending.

Yes, women will still come to Thailand to train and pick up techniques, but as fighters are pulled more and more into non-Muay Thai promotions, variations of kickboxing, and "Muay Thai" itself becomes a broad international style, it could be that the Muay of Thailand for women is waning.

The Muay Thai of Thailand, Internationally

This is speaking of the west. But even for Thai female fighters the pressure away from traditional Muay Thai has been happening for several years now. First it seemed to be the draw to go fight in Japan for significant purses that could not be had in Thailand (easily). I'm not an expert on these fights, but of those I've seen it has often involved female Thai fighters being beat on under rules they did not fully understand or were unprepared for (Shoot Box, for instance), or having Japanese Muay Thai champions face Thai opponents who were sometimes not the top tier, or outside of their natural weight class. This felt somewhat Nationalistic to me, as Japan has always had a tension with Thailand ever since it tried to steal (perfect?) Muay Thai as "Kickboxing" in the 1960s, a Muay Thai that challenged the supremacy of Karate in many ways. The Japanese want to beat Thais. Again, I'm no expert, this goes back much further than when I started paying attention, but in watching recent female champions in a few weight classes closely it seems like the best Thai fighters are no longer invited to fight for Muay Thai belts in Japan, and even that Japanese champions sometime come to Thailand somewhat quietly, and fight what they believe to be lower level names. This has left some of the best Thai female fighters without a chance at more international acclaim.

One has to add to this the more recent trend of Thai fighters being more or less "set up" to fight (and lose to) Chinese fighters. The first time we witnessed this was on the Queen's Birthday fights a few years ago. There was a bizarre match up of a very robust, almost hulking Chinese female fighter tossing around a Thai fighter in some of the oddest rules I've seen in Thailand - it was unexpected because this was a National holiday typically celebrating Thai female fighting. The Chinese fighter was basically ragdolling the Thai girl around the ring with hip throws and whatever else, in a part of the broadcast that was being sent to China (I believe). It was pretty stunning. Since then, and probably before, there are similar fights between Chinese and Thai female fighters, in Thailand, with rules designed to benefit the Chinese fighter, televised back to China (I presume). Thai female fighters also gain big purses flying out to China to (sometimes) be bludgeoned, again, under similar rules in what also seem to be unfair weight disadvantages. Again, it feels like Thai female fighters are serving what is essentially a Nationalism of another country.

All of this makes me wonder about the future of the Muay of Thailand for female fighters, even as female Muay Thai in Thailand seems to be receiving its widest reach and appreciation. The growing, looming wealth of China will likely only increase these kinds of Nationalistic matchups, a Wushu nation seeking to dramatize it's potency in real terms. and in the west the expansive pressure of the UFC and all its ripples in the pond (various "stand up MMA" striking promotions), may lead to an Internationalization of Muay Thai that will take "female Muay Thai" further and further from the Muay of Thailand, just as Muay Thai opportunity is expanding for female Thais within their country...and this is not even taking into account the pronounced globalizing success of the IFMA, which is quietly bringing about significant changes in the sport.

It may be as simple as the fact that the Thai-style rule set and scoring aesthetic does not exist outside of Thailand, so it is hard pressed to imagine that the Muay of Thailand could exists in anything outside of pockets of "Purists" who seek to preserve the artform in the west, or the proliferation of techniques and tone from former Thai fighters turned international coaches and therefore ambassadors for the sport. This is something that all of Muay Thai is facing. But, because of the precarious nature of female Muay Thai, the reality that far fewer women fight or train seriously when compared to men, shifts in style, trends in popularity and maybe more importantly opportunity, can have a much more powerful, and perhaps categorical effect on female fighting than they may on male fighting. As the United States loses its one female Muay Thai star to kickboxing, and then inevitably to MMA, a star who herself was perhaps a Karate fighter at core, one has to wonder just what the future of the Muay of Thailand is for female fighting. Will the Muay of Thailand become anything more for female fighters than a collection of techniques (spinning elbows, teeps, knees) added to a style simply known as "striking"?

[Tiffany Van Soest left unpaid by Lion Fight, now selling her belt.]

Can a crowd looking to find their champion gladiator who overcomes all trials invest themselves in Muay Thai after having seen stand up fighters smothered by MMA grapplers?

 

Maybe if an elite Muay Thai fighter - like the current fantasy about Saenchai - joined the UFC and cleaned up? So far I'm not sure that the UFC has seen true Muay Thai, that is, high level Muay Thai born out of the process of Thailand, with strong knowledge of clinch. BJJ would never have taken off if the fighters that introduced it were mid-level BBJ fighters. The UFC has never really seen a Muay Thai version of a "Gracie".

[Tiffany Van Soest left unpaid by Lion Fight, now selling her belt.]

The question of CMT's legitimacy as Muay Thai is also an interesting topic. If my knowledge of Muay Thai history is correct, it originally was fought in a circular sandpit with the rope wraps instead of gloves. In these regards CMT would be more similar to the original art than is stadium Muay Thai. But if we think of the stadium Muay Thai as the standard, there are still a lot of grey areas about what is real Muay Thai. Like how Thai Fight puts on those kard chuek fights, is that really Muay Thai?

 

I can't say I really follow this. Have you seen old footage of Boran style fighting? It's not really Muay Thai either. It doesn't matter what shape (or gloves) they are working within. Modern Muay Thai fighters at top stadia would have cleaned up those fighters. Muay Thai, as we know it, is really created out the aesthetics of its rules and scoring, as they express  and preserve Thai culture, as the techniques developed over the period of Thailand's modernity (generally 1960-1990s).

Take a look at Boran style fighting not long after the first rings were being used

1920s

Even by 1946

John Wayne Parr's promotion is basically trying to create "stand up MMA" which is not Muay Thai, at least in my opinion - though I don't blame him, it's a natural progression.

[Edit: a quote from JWP:

"I'm addicted to it," he continued. "I buy almost every single pay-per-view. As a Muay Thai fighter I got to this stage where I was very jealous of them fighting in a cage. I wanted to prove myself as a warrior, just to show I am just as tough as MMA guys are. I decided to get the cage and host an event. I did a little bit of research on Youtube and I seen a few Muay Thai fights in a cage, but they were wearing traditional gloves. And it looked wrong and really peculiar. If I wanted to get the same respect from the fans as the MMA guys get, there is no way I could have fighters going to the arena fighting with boxing gloves instead of MMA gloves. I thought, 'If I am going to do this, I am going to do this 100 percent.' That's why I decided for the gloves and the cage. Keep it Muay Thai rules exactly the same as MMA except for when it goes to the ground, you stop and stand back up again. Every single UFC fight that they call 'Fight of the year,' is the ones where they stand the whole time. I'm giving the fans exactly what they want to see."]

To me the kard cheuk fights are a joke/gimmick. They are put on, as form of spectacle in an attempt to rile up Thai nationalism, usually in a show like Thai Fight. There is a strong and lasting narrative told in Thai history that it was Muay Thai that kept Thailand free from western (and neighborly) control. Kard Cheuk is an evocation of that narrative. Thai Fight usually isn't really Muay Thai...it's a Muay Thai show, featuring famous fighters of Thailand, often against overwhelmed western fighters. At the gym the Thais joke about how you have to fight in a totally different, artificial way for Thai Fight, featuring ridiculous moves, etc.

Of course there is no "official" Muay Thai. But Muay Thai to me is the process and promotion of the sport which grows the potency and depth of the art. Thai Fight and Max Muay Thai are spectacle shows. MAX Muay Thai for instance has a rule/advice sheet passed out to its fighters that tells them to fight in a way that is opposite to Bangkok stadium fighting, for the sake of aggression.

[Tiffany Van Soest left unpaid by Lion Fight, now selling her belt.]

I have a theory though and it goes like this: I think that the main factor is that their relative popularities are mostly the result of how they have been affected by the 90s cultural shift which created the fighting boom in Japan and the rise of the UFC in the West.

 

I'd say I pretty much agree with your breakdown, although the fighting boom in Japan was a bit ancillary. It created a hardcore niche fan base in the West, but the UFC really exploded because - in my opinion - it gave expressing to (largely white) male (middle and lower class) frustration. The sliding social power of the UFC demographic found potency in what the UFC was selling, something that felt like REAL fighting. Part of this was taking the wave against the orientalized martial arts fads of the 1970s and 1980s, with so many McDojos, and martial arts developed outside of actual fighting. Muay Thai partook in some of this because it is developed through 1,000s and 1,000s of fights for decades, it felt like "real" fighting (as opposed to so many other martial arts, which didn't). But, those that love Muay Thai also love the culture of Muay Thai, which falls back into the orientalization of the art (it's Kung Fu-ism). This is the fundamental contradiction of Muay Thai in the west, and the thing that prevents it from becoming commercially viable.

1. It has this Kung-Fu aspect, full of "cool" moves and techniques, and a whole Boran history (it's exotic).

2. It has this real fighting aspect, born of actual fights.

Those that love it's real fighting aspect just want to steal or imitate its moves. You get a very watered down version of "Muay Thai" in the UFC (and elsewhere) which is really much more just kickboxing. All the supposedly exotic stuff just gets thrown away. So you get silly reverse elbows over and over, out of context, and off-balance kung-fu-like moves, and the rest of it is all tossed away. The Muay Thai moves will just be absorbed by kickboxing and MMA, there's no need for the rest.

For those that love the exotic dimensions of Muay Thai, this runs hard against the very core of what makes the UFC and MMA in general popular. Doing the Ram Muay, calling your instructor Kru or Arjan, the UFC fans looking for KOs don't care about these things, they are antithetical to "ass kicking". The people who love the exotic aspects are seriously marginalized. Any promotion is forced to draw on this very small group of people because they are most passionate about the art/sport. But any promotion always has to face the fact that it can't answer the question: Why not just do kickboxing with cool Muay Thai moves throw in? There is no answer to that.

The truth is that real Muay Thai is found neither in its exotic fantasy component, or it's "cool moves" stand up MMA component. It's found in the 1,000s fights across the country of Thailand. It doesn't really exist outside of Thailand, in my opinion. So any western promotion is really forced with presenting some sort of imitation of it, to a largely inexperienced audience. It has to piece together its fanbase from very diverse quarters.

[Tiffany Van Soest left unpaid by Lion Fight, now selling her belt.]

I have a theory though and it goes like this: I think that the main factor is that their relative popularities are mostly the result of how they have been affected by the 90s cultural shift which created the fighting boom in Japan and the rise of the UFC in the West.

 

I'd say I pretty much agree with your breakdown, although the fighting boom in Japan was a bit ancillary. It created a hardcore niche fan base in the West, but the UFC really exploded because - in my opinion - it gave expressing to (largely white) male (middle and lower class) frustration. The sliding social power of the UFC demographic found potency in what the UFC was selling, something that felt like REAL fighting. Part of this was taking the wave against the orientalized martial arts fads of the 1970s and 1980s, with so many McDojos, and martial arts developed outside of actual fighting. Muay Thai partook in some of this because it is developed through 1,000s and 1,000s of fights for decades, it felt like "real" fighting (as opposed to so many other martial arts, which didn't). But, those that love Muay Thai also love the culture of Muay Thai, which falls back into the orientalization of the art (it's Kung Fu-ism). This is the fundamental contradiction of Muay Thai in the west, and the thing that prevents it from becoming commercially viable.

1. It has this Kung-Fu aspect, full of "cool" moves and techniques, and a whole Boran history (it's exotic).

2. It has this real fighting aspect, born of actual fights.

Those that love it's real fighting aspect just want to steal or imitate its moves. You get a very watered down version of "Muay Thai" in the UFC (and elsewhere) which is really much more just kickboxing. All the supposedly exotic stuff just gets thrown away. So you get silly reverse elbows over and over, out of context, and off-balance kung-fu-like moves, and the rest of it is all tossed away. The Muay Thai moves will just be absorbed by kickboxing and MMA, there's no need for the rest.

For those that love the exotic dimensions of Muay Thai, this runs hard against the very core of what makes the UFC and MMA in general popular. These people are seriously marginalized. Any promotion is forced to draw on this very small group of people because they are most passionate about the art/sport. But any promotion always has to face the fact that it can't answer the question: Why not just do kickboxing with cool Muay Thai moves throw in? There is no answer to that.

The truth is that real Muay Thai is found neither in its exptic fantasy component, or it's "cool moves" stand up MMA component. It's found in the 1,000s fights across the country of Thailand. It doesn't really exist outside of Thailand, in my opinion. So any western promotion is really forced with presenting some sort of imitation of it, to a largely inexperienced audience. It has to piece together its fanbase from very diverse quarters.

[Tiffany Van Soest left unpaid by Lion Fight, now selling her belt.]

If Lion Fight were to fall, wouldn't the market demand eventually create an organization in its place, the same way when K-1 fell its place was taken by Glory? The only potential issue I see is that many casual fans consider Muay Thai and Kickboxing the same thing so that demand might be channeled into a K-1 style promotion instead.

 If Lion Fight would fall I think it would be a pretty strong sign that Muay Thai is not commercially viable. They've been doing this for nearly a decade, have developed very strong business relationships and ties, have experimented with venues, sanctioning bodies, built up its own stars (Tiffany van Soest, Kevin Ross) and even gotten Thais fighting on the show. I'm not saying that it proves its not viable, but a new promotion would have to think that Lion Fight was doing something fundamentally wrong, something they could do quite a bit better, or they would just be throwing money away. I'm not sure what that wrong thing would be.

Bottom line is that the commercial viability of these promotions are parasitic on the UFC, that's how one is able to draw outside of an extremely niche, but very small fan base. And the truth is that K-1 or kickboxing is just closer to the UFC in aesthetic than Muay Thai is. John Wayne Parr tried to cheat the system a little by putting Muay Thai on in a cage with MMA gloves, and hey, maybe there is a way forward there. But that is NOT Muay Thai really.

You can see the UFC pressure being exhibited even in Thailand, with televised shows like MAX Muay Thai strongly distorting the rules/scoring, for a more spectacle-like, aggression-heavy show. If this is happening even in Thailand (because of the aging of the Muay Thai demographic, and the class-ism involved) it's sure to be the case all over the world. Lion Fight (or any promotion) is caught between the two directions of catering to a devoted "pure" Muay Thai that will sell local tickets to gyms, and becoming more and more like the UFC...which Muay Thai fundamentally is not.

I don't think there is market demand here, in an easy way.

[Tiffany Van Soest left unpaid by Lion Fight, now selling her belt.]

"I would like to address the fans and combat sports community of the concerns I recently raised regarding fighter-promter relations. I hope the issue highlighted the unfortunate scenario we face when promoters exploit fighters, which negatively impact on our lives.

I can confirm receipt of the outstanding payment from Lion Fight Promotions since the social media post. I do not intend to defame Lion Fight Promotions - they are coined "the best stand up promotion in America'' for a reason. Their growth and development for American Muay Thai speaks for itself. However, after seeking legal advice and numerous unreturned emails from Lion Fight demanding payment, I was left feeling heartbroken. My only option was to take matters into my own hands.

I hope this provided a platform for ALL fighters who put their hearts and souls into their careers, their bodies on the line yet still get the short end of the stick. We knowingly fight for small pay checks, but to not receive payment is just wrong. It’s simple – you do a job and get paid for it.

Hopefully there is light at the end of the tunnel for fighters in regards to promoters not paying within reasonable timescales. I would like to thank the fans and combat sports community for the overwhelming support and I hope you all continue to support Muay Thai in America."

 

I'm not sure how you avoid defaming a promotion by explicitly stating one sentence before that they exploit fighters. "Exploit" is a strong word, pretty much a word that is meant to defame. An exploitative promotion is one that nobody really wants to be a part of.

Aside from that non-sequitur though I'm a little divided on this. I do appreciate that she took things into her own hands. Fighters are largely locked into a Gym-Promoter power structure. Their images (and futures) are traditionally decided by their gyms, and by promotions. Social Media allows direct connections with fans, and creates a more immediate power. And Tiffany used that, and I applaud that (though she does not seem very active on social media since her move). I have no doubt that she had very little recourse other than this. But...Muay Thai's continued existence in North America, as a commercially viable product, is seriously threatened, even before this happened. If Lion Fight goes, it could very well mean that North American full rules Muay Thai itself will end, aside from very small local shows.

I think for people who LOVE Muay Thai, we don't see how incredibly niche it is in North America...that it is far more fragile than we imagine.

[Top Female Muay Thai Fighters and Fights - Full Fight Video Thread]

Fani Peloumpi vs Zaza Sor. Aree - One Round Knockout Tournament, March 21 2016

SPOILER: I thought this fight was an amazing performance by Fani. Zaza tried to draw her into her retreat and score game and Fani perfectly played it with control of distance. She also won all the clinch positions against Zaza who has a reputation in clinch, and even in the end, after the 8 count, Fani refused to dance off and stayed aggressive when she didn't have to, risking a cut which could have changed the fight.

 

The full tournament show:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zto1DnJXXvg

time stamps by Kristin: Fani Peloumpi vs Marcela Soto 50:16, Zaza Sor. Aree vs Monika 56:54, Fani vs Zaza 1:41:45

[New Twins Special Gloves]

 Anyone got these or has an opinion on them?

 

 

wow. They've built in kick blocking padding into the wrists. Interesting. I doubt this would become standard.

[Tiffany Van Soest left unpaid by Lion Fight, now selling her belt.]

I have known shows that have made a loss but have still paid the fighters on the night. 

 

It's hard to compare shows I think. We can't know the finances and relationships at stake. Hey, I'd be pissed if Sylvie wasn't paid in a timely fashion, but I presume that Lion Fight has made decisions to pay certain expenses, and delay others. How do we criticize these harshly? We don't really have very much information. Are people claiming incompetence? Fraud? Are there not stories of the UFC itself delaying fighter pay for long periods at times?

What I don't really understand is the level of some of the online vehemence that was behind the backlash on this? The only reason anyone knows Tiffany's name as a star, in the first place, is probably because of Lion Fight itself...no? The anger towards Lion Fight (and maybe many people have reason to be angry, from personal experience), feels self-consuming. It's the community hating and devaluing the last significant Muay Thai show in the United States. If Lion Fight goes there is really nothing much else. Bellator is not Muay Thai. Glory is not Muay Thai. We should be slow to see Lion Fight fall.

That being said, there probably is more to this story than we know. When Tiffany (very quietly...I was surprised how silently she made the move) decided to move to Bali did Lion Fight feel betrayed, or that they were losing a star they helped create? Did they delay her pay on purpose? If so, maybe not smart. Bottom line though, it doesn't feel good that Lion Fight looks like it is struggling to stay afloat - that reversed decision was a fiasco. I believe Marq Piocos said that she's rumored to be going to Bellator now.

[training around injuries]

So here my problem : I broke a finger 3 days ago in training, which totally suck because I feel I really can't do anything.

 

Sorry to hear that Flora. Sylvie trained (and fought) through a hand fracture for about 3 months, earlier in this year. She just turned all right crosses into elbows. It's something you can do in shadow, on the bag and in pads. I'm guessing that your finger is in a splint, but the hand should be relaxed when elbowing. Maybe check out some of the elbow motion in Sylvie's Yodkhunpon video he has an especially light touch in elbows.

Also, working on your long guard (using your forearm to shield instead of a gloved hand), in shadow, might be an option. You can work on slow motion sparring with someone you trust.

[Tiffany Van Soest left unpaid by Lion Fight, now selling her belt.]

Was this a forcing move? I never saw an actual link to an auction.

It just may be that the economics behind profession Muay Thai promotion in the US just are not there. Lion Fight has been trying to make Muay Thai work for a long time. I can't imagine they are stuffing their pockets at this point, and letting all their relationships die off. There literally must be no money.

[Effect of Marriage on Female Fighters]

He didn't win a stadium title but he was the first Thai to win a gold medal at the Olympics, which could be perceived as a greater achievement than a stadium title(?). Not to mention the time period he won it in, which just propelled his fame. 

 

Not to go too far off topic, but I would say definitely the case. There are many, many Lumpinee titles and very few Olympic golds. Winning that gold made him a superstar and from what I've heard financially set for life. There is also something very alluring to Thais about western boxing victories. It proves Thai greatness on the international stage. Thai western boxing champions are very well regarded. I've heard that even a bronze medal for boxing in the Olympics changed a fighter's life.

Back to female Thai Muay Thai fighters, there is no achievement out there that really changes your future. There is just long term presence in the media and then not. It could be that some of the things that the IFMA is reaching for can change some of that - with international prestige at stake - I'm not sure though.

[Why Do Rich Westerners Want To Fight?]

The theory seems way too speculative for me, but I do believe that fighters are acting out very deep patterns in their body, and are often are attempting to transform or transcend them.

[Choosing a gym for a fight camp/tournament preparation]

I'd agree with what a lot of people are saying about confidence, and ask if the experiences you had previously were ones that built your confidence. It sounds a little like it may have been a mixed experience? A lot of times it isn't so much the gym you are at, it's the trainer you have. So maybe the gyms have been good, but a different trainer might make them better? You can sometimes get focus from a different trainer by taking privates with them.

Because you are asking about alternatives, a few ideas. 4 weeks is a good amount of time, enough to make a significant change, and if you focused on something like clinch (which isn't easy to find) you could radically change your ability to win against opponents who may not be so focused, unless you are already a clinch fighter. Winning in tie-ups can make big differences.

Also, a gym to consider might be Sitmonchai gym (not a clinch gym), in that it is very fight oriented, has a good track record when dealing with female fighters, and has one of the best low-kick instructors in the world in Kru Dam. It's about 2 hours outside of Bangkok in a pretty quiet part of Thailand, and might really give you that "fight camp" experience you may be seeking.

Also of course, Sylvie has an open invitation to female fighters to come and train with her. Women are really taking her up on it. One woman, Sandra, came to prepare for the Swedish championships and the IFMAs, and really experienced growth in a short amount of time. She became the 48 kg champion last week against much more experienced opponents, and is coming back in the Summer. The gym is not for everyone, you need to be very self-motivated, but you would basically get to train along with Sylvie who is constantly training for fights, and you would definitely learn some clinch. It's also a pretty inexpensive gym, which may help in matters.

['Ronda Rousey had Suicidal Thoughts after Losing to Holly Holm' - Article from WSOF.com]

On a more cynical note, the confessional, teary interview, and viral headlines about babies, “suicidal thoughts” etc. has got her rolling through everyone’s newsfeeds once again, and in the absence of any imminent fighting, she needs the publicity.

 

So hard to read what really is the case, but one has to admit that her team has become very media savvy. Apparently her lawyers have just recently filed for patents around the phrase "Fuck Them All" 5 in particular to the abbreviation FTA. Rousey is no longer just a person fighting, if she ever was only that. She's the center of a moving media event, and the commerce that goes along with it. When you patent phrases you are going to be using in the future, that's some serious premeditation.

[Effect of Marriage on Female Fighters]

I'm not completely sure it is specifically marriage in Thailand. Though most definitely there is a widespread ethic that women should not fight. You even see it among potential female western fighters who come and get a Thai fighter boyfriend. Anecdotally, we've seen potential or current fighters become less active as fighters, and some be strongly steered away from fighting, when a Thai ex-fighter boyfriend relationship starts. It does not seem to be the case that the men, because they are fighters, see fighting as something the female should do. In fact, quite the opposite. Because they are or have been fighters their female counterparts should not fight. Again, anecdotally.

To understand this though in almost all circumstances Muay Thai in Thailand is work. It's not glamorous, by and large, and most people think about females fighting: Why would you do that? And Sylvie's been asked many times why I would allow or want her to fight. It just makes little sense, even if you are talented in it. It is very rare for a female fighter to make any real money, and most women want to stop fighting before 20. They've been doing it, usually, since they were a kid, and if they didn't have to fight - due to circumstances - they wouldn't. There is almost none of the "martial arts for the beauty" or "personal glory" involved in the decision to be a fighter. It's just work. And it is work that isn't sustainable, not to mention work that can scar you.

You can add to that that female Thai fighters really have no career path once they start becoming very good. Sylvie wrote about this in her Judging Youth article. When Thai boys start really excelling at around the age of 15 and are climbing top talent in the Bangkok stadia, Thai girls start running out of top opponents. Not only is the pool much smaller, but nobody wants to fight them because in order to fight you have to lay significant money down. There is no sense of "Hey, let's fight and see who the best for the good and glory of the sport". It's about money. There will be some high profile matchups, but there simply is no scene, no promotional structure, along which a very good 15 year old female fighter will grow into a great one. There are rare exceptions like with Sawsing and Chommanee, women who become national stars, but even they are probably not earning a significant living, very infrequently fight, and probably would prefer to just retire. I never get the feeling that any Thai female fighter around 20 wants to fight anymore, at least in the sense that is expressed in the west.

Sawsing is an interesting example of course, because she recently got married (to a fighter) and had a baby, and is having a comeback fight. This is a strong exception and it's interesting to watch. There are other examples of female fighters coming back to Muay Thai at or around after college. Zaza has been having a very slow comeback (she fought in Japan when young) - she is the girlfriend of one of the Pinto brothers - but does not really seem to want to fight. We've heard she asks such a high fee it is very hard to book her. I don't know if she has fought in many months after a few initial victories, and when she did fight she seemed to be facing girls she knew she could win against. It really appeared, at least to me, as if she was coming back to Muay Thai to maybe further a larger singing or acting career, which is pretty interesting, because to some degree being a top female fighter has become something of a marketable media image. This feels new.

So, given all this context I would imagine that if you add marriage into the mix it would definitely create a possible: Now it is time to move onto the next stage of your life. There is a feeling that female fighting is for when you are young (early and mid teens), but then because there is no future, you move on. Phetjee Jaa says that she wants to join the military, when we asked her. There doesn't seem to be a vision of future world greatness.

As a sidenote about culture, Tom and Dee-ism (a form of Thai lesbian relationship) is pretty common among female Thai fighters (at least it seems to be from what we've seen). It also is strongest in the demographic of youth. But unlike a more western concept of firm sexual identity, this too is often treated as a stage or a fad by families, who then at a certain point expect their daughters to stop experimenting, get married, and get on with their life. This can be very painful for women more committed to the life choice, as Dees leave and start a straight life, because its expected. I'm not drawing a complete connection here, but only to say that there is foundation for a "Now it is time to grow up" judgment from society directed towards women who have lived a life in their teens. This could tie into a similar "time to grow up" attitude towards fighting.

['Ronda Rousey had Suicidal Thoughts after Losing to Holly Holm' - Article from WSOF.com]

I have to say that it got a little whiplash, unexpectedly going from suicide to babies. I was totally sympathetic with her over-wrought feeling, but when she bounced to having to stay alive for her man's babies, it kinda made me reconsider her as a whole. I think she's been incredibly brave and strong bearing the weight of UFC popularity as a woman - so much pressure, but I don't know...this seemed a little unstable sounding.

How terrible to have your every thought scrutinized though.

 

What did you think Emma?

[Ashley Nichols is Coming Back to Thailand - Her GoFundMe]

We might be seeing a Chommanee fight then! Or Teresa. Good to have a high caliber female name moving to Thailand.

[Kun Khmer / Cambodian boxing]

Really good post and thread. Sylvie interviewed a big Bangkok promoter who is involved in a plan to build an International Kard Chuk stadium, I believe in Mae Sai (?, don't remember), in order to promote Thai vs border country fighting. He has a big vision, but this is something that might mean a lot for Khmer fighting.

An interesting aspect of this is that there seems to be something of an ideological tension within Thailand about the history or source of Muay Thai techniques. There seems to be a strong effort to portray Muay Thai has having a "royal" lineage, and align Muay Thai with nationalist efforts, protecting the nation, etc., distancing itself from techniques found either in the North or in Isaan (with its Khmer origins). There seem to be noble vs populist narratives in struggle, making the loss of Khmer fighting knowledge a hole in history.

So sad to think of the loss of Khmer teachers during the brutality of the Khmer Rouge (albeit a tragedy of such an enormous proportion, hard to single that out). This absence though draws out what is so absolutely unique about Thailand, perhaps in the world. The thing that makes Thailand like no other place, at least in this point in history, is the sheer number of fights, both in individual careers but also just nationally. It has a history of knowledge and continuity that is incredibly fight-tested, across tens of thousands of persons. Yes, great Thai fighters of the past are often neglected by their own, we know one fighter who was the best 118 lb fighter in the land who now just manages a bar, and there are countless stories like this; and yes, formerly esteemed gyms are now becoming more like adventure tourist centers, but still all this fighting is done in the context of a huge bed knowledge and memory. 

In a complete side note, the loss of masters makes me think of this very good documentary about the diaspora and loss of Kung Fu masters, much recommended:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--DlclqbmeM