Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu

More from the day.

Incredible. It must be the feeling he has.

The General.

Another beautiful shot of the General. The arc and power of his punches are like nothing else in Thailand that I've seen. Short, explosive.

This was the Black Belt magazine source I had in mind. Note, the described animosity between Thai and Japanese and the Japanese desire to prove the efficacy of Karate. I assumed in reading this that "an Islamic" and "the Chinese" and "the Chinaman" were striking descriptions - I had assumed this emphasis meant that there were not Thais, or at the very least not those that Thailand would choose to defend Muay Thai's honor internationally if this was a substantive event. The author points out that these match ups came after a bit of "searching". Even if the author is only making racialist observations, because this match supposedly was a "Thailand" vs "Japan" match, it seems pretty notable that 2 of the fighters were not ethnically "Thai" (probably a pretty big deal in 1963, and read as non-Thai at least at some social level). The writer is making the distinction boldly. But perhaps they were Thai nationals. But, the article makes the assertion that these were admittedly not particularly strong Thai Muay Thai fighters. Osamu Noguchi, if I recall, is the Japanese promoter who was reportedly run out of town (Bangkok, abandoning his kickboxing gym) after the 1982 World Championships still attempting to assert the worthiness of Japanese fighters vs Thais two decades years later. It appeared to be an enduring preoccupation.

Chances of training with him are pretty limited, generally. But he'll be at Sylvie's gym Petchrungruang from probably July 2019 til January 2020. I urge pretty much anyone who has a passion for him to make the trip out to Pattaya. It's very rare.

We visited the General and Timothy today to drop off a tripod and a phone for hotspotting (with the help of our patrons). A photo taken of the General demonstrating, with Timothy looking on:

Timothy's vlog #1 - First Day, Arrival If you'd like to follow this thread you can click follow at the top and get alerts when Timothy posts.

We may not be referring to the same set of early fights. Honestly, it was a year ago I read up on this. To me it's not even worth thinking about. Japanese fighting at the time was laughably (seriously, humorously) inferior. (The other day we asked Dieselnoi about the World Championship fights he fought in in 1982 in which the Japanese kickboxers (and all the other kickboxers in the world) were overwhelmed, and he just started giggling. He said, "you have to understand, it was all yodmuay. All the fights went very fast." But he really was giggling like a child. He pointed to his knee where he still has a scar from the tooth of a Korean fighter. And this is 20 years after these original bouts.) At the time we are thinking about these are very likely the best Japanese fighters in the country, or at least in the upper percentile. They are not fighting elite Thais. Putting these guys against the best fighters in Thailand at the time, in lots of fights, would have been an endless embarrassment - again, not because Japanese Karate sucks, it's because of the very deep experience in actual fights top Thais had, and the fact that Karate really was not a full contact fighting sport.

We also have to, I would STRONGLY suggest, accept the possibility that an almost decimated art would then become cross-influenced by the dominant art of the day. It may very well be it looks like Muay Thai because in attempting to assemble the art into a style, it draws on what it sees as well. This for instance is what supposedly happened when TKD arose in Korea, but almost exclusively as a derivative of Japanese Karate. In fact, it pretty much WAS Japanese Karate. After the war it become imperative for TKD to not be Japanese at all, and so began the long path of creating a supposedly "original" Korean martial art that TKD was derived from. And they found the thinnest little trace of one (nearly extinct at the time of Karate's arrival in Korea). So, the story building began, and that art, apparently called t'aekkyon, came to be claimed as the origin of TKD, something that a study of early TKD martial art manuals suggest isn't the case at all. t'aekkyon then itself gradually began a reconstruction, retroactively, with people claiming to know and teach it. The connective tissue between it and modern TKD came to be grandfathered in. And this had strong ideological motivations. Make TKD Korean in origin, not Japanese. My gut feeling is that something like this is happening in some cases of fragmented SEA martial arts that claim to be older than Muay Thai (an ideological claim). These arts can be reconstructed, from the present, into the past, and give the illusion to be origins. This actually is a problem with many of the Muay Boran claims in Thailand as well. We don't really know if any of these are actual lineages, or how much of them are reconstructions. Arjan Surat, who had a Boran teacher who is up on the wall of his gym, shook his head when talking about Muay Boran masters of today. "If he didn't know (pointing to the photo on the wall), how do they know?". That is one of the special, and indeed remarkable thing about General Tunwakom's Muay Lertrit. It is handed straight down from its creator, who himself was fusing Muay Khorat with other influences (apparently).

It reminds me of cultures that had an architectural history in wood. Almost all lost. Cultures that built in stone, highly favored in the invented histories of the world.

We haven't run into this, though we've only used it a few times in Bangkok. But, it's very funny, there is a condo unit we rent out in Chiang Mai sometimes when we can't find a room and when you park your car and head to the elevator you see LOTS of signs that say: "This is ONLY for residents, no short term stays". What's so hilarious is that almost nobody you run into in the halls, or by the pool, looks like they live there. They put up those signs because the entire place has kind of turned into an AirBnb hotel, I'm guessing. But very interesting that you've had that experience. I suspect that AirBnB has become so prevalent and grown so fast it's basically over run all the customary ways of doing things. Even hotels now are on AirBnB trying to give the impression that they are residences.

Soooo. The kickboxing talent pool is incredibly weak, you say. But the Kyokushin talent pool is amazing. I sense, well, someone who loves Kyokushin, hahaha. No matter this isn't going to reach agreement. I personally am really interested in the heritage and changes of martial arts, but honestly listening to Karate people tug of war over who was an authentic teacher, and who was the fraud is incredible boring. You never get any of this in Muay Thai, why? Because the quality of the Muay Thai is shown in actual, high level fights, fights that become incredibly famous. In actual fighters. It would be like arguing about the greatest baseball players the history of Baseball in America, but then there was an totally different version of the sport in, let's say, Norway, where it was customary to argue about who was the best TEACHER of alter-baseball, and not actual Norwegenian alter-baseball games, actual alter-baseball players. When you say: Wow, Karuhat was as good any fighter Thailand has every produced, you never get "But who was his master? Where did he get his "fight style" from?! What school is he? All these questions really point to nonsense for me. You know where Karuhat got his fighting style when you ask him? He made it up. He made it up because he was forced as a kid to spar and play with lots of other high level fighters, and he was pushed through a beautiful and difficult regime. And he made it up because he had to beat the very best fighters who ever walked, in real fights, with lots of money on the line. Please give me a fighting art that has no "masters", as the definition of its authenticity.

The problem was a particular, historical problem. I'm sure there is no contemporary Thai who thinks about Japanese Kickboxing as anything at all. The tensions around the 1982 World Championships were apparently VERY high. The Japanese didn't steal techniques, they copied the commercial product of fighting, put on 3 weekly televised kickboxing shows, made huge iconic stars (probably through lots of fixed fights), and then tried to bring it over to Thailand. That, apparently was the problem. As to taking the "Thai kick" or the whatever, Thais wouldn't care less. Maybe on the forums and conversation spaces you visit this is a big deal - because westerners are all about authentic technique, etc, because gyms commercially sell themselves as holding authentic technique - but Thais couldn't care less. There is so much variety of technique in Thailand it isn't even funny.

This, while a 100,000 fights are being fought all over Thailand. It's kind of silly to even compare them, they are two very different things.

I think this is a huge problem when discussing this subject. One part of that problem is I have no idea what you are referring to because Sylvie developed outside of US gym culture, and all the online history. Everything she's done is far removed, and me as well. My opinions mostly formed far from any of the talk of Muay Thai's superiority. I'd run into old AX Forum stuffy from Googling, but it's a different world for me. I don't have fighters to defend, a gym to run, students to attract. I'm only really interested in preserving and acknowledging what is special about Muay Thai, because we neck deep in it, and we personally know and are closely connected to many of the legends of the sport who are now being forgotten, not only by westerners, but by Thais themselves. But, I understand that this kind of talk, the kind I'm putting forward, probably connects up with all sorts of western conversations about martial art vs martial art which honestly I'd run away from a million miles an hour. Thais don't talk or think like that, at least how I've seen. They don't even think about comparisons. If they saw another martial art they might think such a thing is silly, or that it's totally worth stealing because Thais love efficacy. I think it was only in the period when Thais felt that the Japanese were stealing their art, creating their own copycat sport, and then kind of staging its superiority, that they were like: Hey, fuck off! But all the same, other Thais were very willing to fight on Japanese TV and fall down for one of Fujiwara's amazing 99 KOs too.

You tell me who was the "master marketer"? Wow, Thai fighters would never stand a chance!

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