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I started late, 25 yrs old. I have recently found Sylvie's videos interviewing Angie and while that is a huge inspiration for me as someone now a few months into training, I have found the real hook that kept me coming back to class religiously is the impact of Muay Thai on my relationship to my body. I pass fairly well when I am conforming to western femininity but I actually gravitate towards tom/butch expression (undercut, little makeup, "men's" cloths) despite being MTF. For my whole life, and especially the last few years during transition I have had basically hypervigilance/hyper fixation surrounding my body and how its being perceived/gendered and how I exist in space. Surrendering to the grind/burn of Muay Thai has been one of the biggest non-medical transition tool for reframing my relationship to my body from one centered on the perceptions of others, to one centered around learning how to assert myself in space and exercise balance and autonomy over my body. I have a lifetime of sharpening ahead of me but I have found a great deal of relief and reward in the distance I have come so far. As I become more at home in my body I am able to understand how my natural tendencies match up to the various subdisciplines/systems of Muay Thai and serves as a salient anchor for these parts of myself I want to develop in my regular life, and for getting past traumas. Making this post to share this experience, as after the fact I thought it was very ironic that this thing that is so good for specifically trans mental health (in my opinion) is socially and sometimes legally off limits to us. How does my experience compare to yours? Do you know any trans fighters that have had similar or different experiences?

Hey everyone reading this, as the MTL and this forum was the initial factor of me going to train at Bangkok i want to share my experience of training with Sagat for a week and what i learned from it. First of all Sagat is a really nice person overall, He was willing to pick me up with his car and bring me to the training and also take me back afterwards every single day. He also shared several lunches with me and invited me more or less to a fight event at lumpinee stadium to show me more of muay thai. You also get a very nice feedback during training with him, depending on your technique the responds vary from critique, to good, to perfect, to uwee and of course "how feel" with a bright smile. What i learned: 1. Go straight: Sagat teaches of what i would call a traditional/old school way of everything. Most of the basic strikes we went through were supposed to travel the minimal distance. For example the kick is supposed to angle at about 45 degree and go straight up like a soccer/football kick, returning the foot by going directly back. Thus the hip snaps more, so you dont fully close the hip(if that makes sense). Also you dont turn in the shin on the last second like in "the golden kick", he corrected this many times as i was very confused with this. 2. Acceleration at the end of strikes: With punches and elbows there was big emphasise on accelerating "after" the hip and body rotation or even more so at the end of the upper body rotation. This way you can go through the target more easily (like when somebody tells you to hit behind the bag). 3. Straight punches: Sagat teaches to throw without turning the fist. Instead you lift the elbow at the end of the arm movement, so that your elbow (not the upper arm) ist positioned behind your fist, this way you get the "snap" in the punch or at least i feel this way. You also come in on a little angle with the fist, instead of coming pinpoint straight. Thinking about it i believe all of his punches work with the "elbow behind the fist". This way the wrist, the elbow joint and the fist feel more supported and the forearm comes as a whole. 4. Stepping in on strike and afterwards step out: I was supposed to step on every punch with the weight mostly on the front leg. I tried on different ocassions to switch my weight back and forth (like in the chatchai sasakul sessions) but i was corrected about it, because i couldnt get back fast enough this way. He also tried to teach me to breath in deeply before stepping in, so that you have enough energy to throw your strikes. I hope somebody finds this in any form useful.

I will be sharing your words with Angie, as I'm sure they mean as much to her as they do to me. For me, personally, what drew me to Muay Thai was the performance of masculinity, with these simultaneous soft and fluid expressions. I've written on my blog about how masculinity does not belong to men; men "wear" it just as much as women can, it's not intrinsic or "natural" or inherent. Bev Francis, one of the most famous female Body Builders in the 70s and 80s pushed past the "acceptable" limit of muscles that "feminine" bodies into muscles that were heavily criticized as being "too much" for a woman. But Bev loved muscles and being strong for the exact same reasons males with those bodies love them: because it feels good. A pleasure not "belonging" to a gender, even if socially it is flagged or coded to the binary. As a cis woman, this is how I've navigated the very complex experiences of Muay. The parts that are masculine feel good for the same reasons they feel good to men, but I do get offended when folks comment that I "look like a man," or am "strong like a man." As a Cis woman, I have a more relaxed privilege to those offenses because I don't worry about "passing," but I do, at times, fret that I can never be unaware of being NOT A MAN in a man's arena. But vacillating in the in-between is where the real beauty is and, if Muay Thai allows you to explore and express your gender in a more nuanced way, then that's a wonder I have greatly appreciated as well. If you can find Superbank's stunningly beautiful Ram Muay, wherein he is pouring out feminine grace and at the exact same moment filling himself with masculine prowess...it's that. That's the perfect example.

That might be it. If the farang name is Rafael and is from NY that would be him. He does go to Hongthong sometimes and knows the two brothers I was talking about. The other gym I was talking about was Lamnammoon Muay Thai, but it was not him who was there, though he did come once and elbows me in the face while holding pads (I mean by that just slightly touched to make me realize my guard was down, fucking scary but effective). I actually had the privilege to be elbowed by both him and Yodkhunpon which I am kind of happy about ahahah. The trainer taking care of the gym was Nuengtrakan Por Muangubon cause Lamnammoon was mostly in Singapour I think. Anyways, Joe from Hongthong had arranged for me to train there, he told me a bit about growing there and stuff. I think Hongthong is like a neighborhood in Ubon or something like this. I've been wanting to write a review of all the gyms I've trained at in my trips, but I have not yet. Keep doing your great work Kevin. You and Sylvie have had such an impact. I hope one day soon, Thailand offers you honorary citizenship. You guys deserve this.

escriures - etchings, strokes, inscriptions, grooves & sweeps, impressions, trace, arcings, adumbration, articulation. Above is a photo of a fighter from Chatchai's shadowboxing with his hands on the hip bones, the most extensive writing strokes taken out. The body itself becomes a gesture of gestures, the feet and torso moves toward the visual language, developing the sense of the roots of writing.

I was going to thailaind to train for the first time and was unsure where to go. With so much choice I decided to post a thread asking where would be best to go. After a recommendation by Kevin on this forum I decided to just give it a go and visit this gym in Chaing Mai. I messaged the gym and they were really helpful with recommendations for accomodation. Location: The gym is located a few minutes by taxi from Chaing Mai Airport. There is accomodation approximately 100 metres from the gym that is a reasonable price. I stayed in a hotel a bit further away that was right next to the mall. The mall is about a 15 minute walk from the gym and it pretty big. In terms of training it is really easy to get to your accomodation and the gym. The main city is about a 10 minute taxi ride away. Its pretty easy to get around and far less traffic than Bangkok. So if you wanted to live in the city centre and commute to the gym it's easily possible. In terms of things to do in the city there is loads of places to eat and markets seemingly everywhere. Other than that you can look things up in a guidebook for things to do or something. Training: Classes are 7am and 3pm with optional training before this. The classes consist of skipping, pad work, bag work, sparring/clinching. The class is well structured and you are always given something to do. Thailand will often show techniques throughout the session and this knowledge is absolute gold. I also did a few private sessions and got lots of corrections to various techniques but he didn't teach too much so I could retain it. He is an extremely good teacher and would highly recommend private lessons with him. I felt a huge improvement very quickly. It's hard to explain how much my technique improved within a couple of weeks but he managed to improve the fundamentals of pretty much everything I was doing. Thailand is a highly gifted coach and he really cares about everyone in the gym getting better and enjoying training. I cannot recommend this gym highly enough. The vibe at the gym: Everyone here is really friendly. The Thai guys who live at the gym are quite young but this makes no difference, they are technically superb and a lot can be learnt sparring them. The foreign visitors who were also there were all really cool and we all made friends right away. There is absolutely no ego here which was really nice to be a part of. Summary: A highly technical gym conveniently located with a genuinely caring and motivated head coach. Seriously, Thailand is a technical genius. The people at the gym (in my experience) were all friendly which really helps if you're visiting to mainly train as you will be at the gym a lot. There seems to be plenty of fighting opportunities if you want them. I didn't explore this and mainly visited to learn as much as I could. Thanks Kevin for being so active on this forum and making this recommendation.

Ive been watching some of Chamuakpet's fights as usual, and I noticed something that mightve been obvious to everyone else. He switches stance depending on his opponents stance. (I watched his fights with, Oley, Pepsi, and Chaidet in a trilogy gomma have to watch some others paying attention to this to see if im right or making an assumption) Im curious about out of the many reasons it could be for what mix or single reason he did this. My conclusions have been the rear knee timing and open side point. Though I thought it might be possible he has a similar mental process as Gen Hongthonglek (except opposite) where he prefers to fight other orthodox fighters because of his mental mapping of the body. And I thought that "hey maybe Chamuakpet prefers the mapping of opposite stances and he adjusts to stwitching accordingly" I believe his ability to do this was one of MANY things that made him an incredible fighter. Just like Karuhats ability to switch was important in his style too. Ive noticed in my switch to southpaw the last 3 months that I actually really like the mapping of opposite stances. PS: been a supporter for about 2 years now since ive started Muay Thai thank you for everything Kevin, Sylvie, and the Legends

My lad 12 spent a week with Thailand either in the group lesson but more often in PT every morning . We found him to be a great trainer with a really good gym vibe from the local and foreign fighters . There were at least 4 Spanish 2 boys and 2 girls all of who fought and won , one in Bangkok and the other 3 in chiang Mai. It was a great night out watching them at the local stadium. Thailand himself was superb with my son and they got on really well, he made noticeable improvements in the short time we were there As a coach he is a stickler for precision , he wants it right and is prepared to go over and over til you get it right . He was kind and funny and obviously cares about his students, his wife and kids are part of the scene and were lovely . He’s held in high regard for good reason , he’s a brilliant coach and I won’t hesitate to go back hopefully next year with my lad

Phornthip Khamthongphanaw is a 19-year-old fighter who trains at the Khlong Toei Youth Center in Bangkok. UNDP Thailand did a video on her recently, which you can watch here. There's also a Vice article by the same journalist on her story: https://www.vice.com/en/article/n7en4d/women-muay-thai-rising-star-thailand

A beautiful thread you have here. I am late to the party but Sylvie pointed me to it today. If I would ever care to analyze what MT does to me past the superficial "it is fun", this is what I would write, maybe not as eloquent though. But as you made me self-reflect today, I realized how deep MT has rooted itself inside me and how it then manifested on the outside. I am definitely in a better shape now than ever, both mentally and physically. People from outside can disagree when they see my sometimes bruised body and my obsession with pain and grind but for me that's the moments when I feel like myself. That's when my most genuine smiles happen. It's been the best tool to reintegrate my lost masculine part back in a healthy way and finally feel as a whole, self-reliant and resilient to societal expectations and pressure. Who would think, right? That the best way to find yourself and your place as a woman could be through such a stereotypically masculine activity.

above, festival fight in Pattaya Just some thoughts and observations on the overall state of Thailand's Muay Thai. Not an expert opinion, just an informed perspective. The title of this piece may sound absurd, or maybe for some just an exaggeration, but there is among some long time fans who have watched a lot of Muay Thai in Thailand the sense that the only Muay Thai worth watching in Thailand now, in terms of actual skill, is Muay Dek, the Muay Thai of Thai youth. This piece about why that may be so. There is a sense that Muay Thai has been stretched now in two directions. You have Bangkok stadia, gambling driven traditional Muay Thai, supposedly the acme of the country's traditional talent, and you have Entertainment Muay Thai (with various versions of itself), a Muay Thai that is bent towards - and in many cases just FOR - the foreigner. If I was to really generalize between the two, one line of Muay Thai heads toward more "technical" point fighting and fight management (trad stadium Muay Thai), fights where fighters and corners are always responding to shifting gambling odds, and on the other hand a Muay Thai (in the extreme case of ONE) which is all about combos, aggression and offensive risk taking, emphasizing trades in the pocket and knockouts. The problem is, neither trajectory is very skilled (at least in the historical sense of Thailand's greatly skilled fighters). Muay Thai has become increasingly deskilled, along these two trending branches. And, if you mostly watch one of the two, you might not have noticed the deskilled aspects, because this is just the "new normal", and competition always produces winners who seem in comparison to others, quite skilled. It's only when you take the wider view, not only of the history and greatness of the sport, but also of the present state of Muay Thai itself, importantly including Muay Dek, do you see the drop in skill in adult fighting...as each promotional style squeezes out certain qualities from their fighters, cutting off their full, expressive development. Even with big sidebets on fights (gambling), and seemingly lots of pressure, Muay Dek fighters fight with great freedom. Some of this is a mystery why this is lost, but what follows is a sketch of how Muay Dek fighters change and become limited once they reach a certain age. Why Are the Muay Dek Fighters the Best Muay Thai Fighters in Thailand? If you just watch a few fights, and you have an eye for it, you'll see it. In a word, freedom. In another word, expressiveness. And still an third, sanae (charm, charisma, a key component in Thai traditional scoring). The Muay Thai of the Golden Age (1980s-1997) was filled with highly skilled, very well-rounded, but importantly very expressive fighters, fighters who fought with experimentation who were constantly adjusting to their opponent, drawing on styles and tactics that could in shifts change the outcomes of fights. And in fighting in that way that exuded personality, uniqueness and charm...aura. Much of this quality, and flexibility is gone from Thailand's Muay Thai, but in today's Muay Dek some of it is really still there. Its only when these fighters get to a certain age...maybe 15-16, that it starts to become squeezed out. In the Muay Dek even of today you get fighters who are regulating their energies with great subtitle, not swinging between overt passivity or over-aggression, fighters engage more continuously in the classic style, with fewer ref breaks, less stalling, fighters drawing out extended phrasing and highly technical defensive stretches that endure. A greater variety of weapons, and even transitions between fighting styles or a shifting of tactics, to solve what is happening in the fight, a kind of cerebral aesthetic that older fighters seem to have lost the capacity for. At the highest levels of Muay Dek youth fighting you see dimensionality...and personality. There is much less nibbling at leads. Instead one sees that leads are vied for more or less continually, and expanded when achieved, without devolving into hyper-aggressive mashing. I'm going to leave Entertainment Muay Thai to the side for now, especially ONE which is its own particular excessive exaggeration, mostly because its kind of obvious how promotional hype, booking dynamics, rule-sets and bonuses shape fighters to fight in a certain more limited way. What many may not realize is that trad Muay Thai in the stadia also forces fighters to fight in a certain way, in many cases simplifying or pairing down what they had been capable of when developing as youths. I'm going to say "gambling" here, but gambling is not the boogieman monster that a lot of online commentary makes it out to be. Gambling in Muay Thai is essential to its form, in fact I don't think Thailand's Muay Thai would have reached the complexity of its art without ubiquitous gambling, all the way down to the 1,000s and 1,000s of villages and provincial fight cards, its ecosystem of fighting, which have gone on for maybe centuries. Some of the discussion of the importance of gambling I discuss speculatively here: above, festival fight in Buriram The problem isn't "gambling" per se, but rather that in the larger venues in Bangkok because of the changing (eroding) demographics of Muay Thai the shift of economic power to big gyms, and the dwindling talent pool, the powerful forces of gambling interests have lost proportion, and now have outsized impact. There are not enough counter-balancing forces to keep gambling's historically important role in Muay Thai's creativity, in check. These have worn away, leaving gambling as too prominent. But, I'm not talking about corruption here (which everyone loves to turn to with an infinite finger of blame). I'm actually talking about the way in which Muay Thai is traditionally fought with fighters responding in a live sense to the shifting odds of the audience. Online gambling has complicated this more human, social dimension of the sport, abstracting it to 1,000s or 10,000s of people of varying interests and even knowledge, on their mobile phones. The demographic of "who" gambles has changed, and increasingly people are gambling who have less knowledge about the sport. They'll place a bet on Muay Thai just as they'll place a bet on a football game. Again, let's bracket, let's put the online nature of gambling to the side, and just talk about the traditional relationship between live fighting and live in-person gambling in the stadia. The fighters are fighting TO the odds. The odds are the "score" of the fight, just like in basketball you could look up to a scoreboard and see the score of the game, in Muay Thai you can look to the odds and (roughly!) know the score of the fight. There may be distortion in the odds, whales and their factions of one sort of another may be putting their thumb on the scale, but there is a symbiotic discourse happening between live gambling and the fighters (and their corners). Some of this traditionally has produced great complexity of skills, the ability of fighters to not just "win" the fight in terms of points, but also manage the fight, in stretches, shaping narratives. But today, the exact opposite is happening. Gambling is deskilling traditional Muay Thai, in large part because the small gyms of Thailand - the gyms that actually grow all the fighters, feeding the talent of Bangkok - have been eroding. Not only have they been disappearing (there are far, far fewer of them), those that exist still have no political power in the socio-economics of the sport. When fighters of small gyms enter the gambling rings of Bangkok, not only are they doing so on a very fragile line of income, often losing money to even bring their fighters down, they can no longer bet big on their fighters to supplement fight pay. Betting on your own fighter was once an entire secondary economy which grew small gyms and encouraged them to create superior talents. If you had a top fighter he could be a big earner not only for the gym, but also all the padmen krus in it, aside from fight pay. Because small gyms have lost power overall, political power, they have to live at the margins, which means their fighters have to fight extremely conservatively so as to not be blamed if their fighter loses. They need the backing of the social circles of gamblers. If you lost, it can't be because you took a risk. And because big gyms are going to win (force through political weight) close fights, small gyms have to practically walk on egg-shells in the way that their fighters fight. Generally: get a small lead...and once you have that lead protect it at all costs. Don't do anything risky to expand the lead. And, because small leads are easily lost, fights often turn into a series of nibblings, with both fighters protecting their tiny leads, back and forth. They aren't trying to win, they are trying not to lose. This form of fighting has transmitted itself to big gyms, is the new traditional form of fighting. Don't risk blame. This aspect of "not my fault", "defend a small lead, take it to the end of the fight if you can (5th round), make it close enough and then blame politics or corruption if you lose" has become a normalized style of traditional fighting, across venues among adults. Some of this is because the current state is an out of proportion exaggeration of the truth that traditional Muay Thai fighting always has been expressive of political powers and social capital struggle in hierarchies outside of the ring. Fighters ARE part of and in the ring express social networks. This is part of Muay Thai's social dimension and cultural anchoring. It's just that with the erosion of the powers of small gyms, the dilution of the talent pool, the hoarding of limited talent, has pushed this aspect too hard, and distorted the sport, draining it of skills and its renown complexity. To give a small anecdotal example of how this deskilling works, I remember when a smallish gym was training a fighter, and in padwork the fighter switched to southpaw, just experimentally. No! The answer came back from the kru, and they related a story from the past when one of the gym's fighters had switched to southpaw in a fight and lost. The gamblers who bet on him were furious. He had "blown" the fight. The gym had lost face. From this single event, probably a fight not of much consequence, the gym now forbade switching. It could cost you a fight. An entire branch of Muay Thai (that of switching) was cut off from that gym's fighters...forever. Not only in terms of that technical branch of development, the whole spirit of experimentation and creativity was closed off. The goal was: get a lead...keep it. Don't develop a style that is complex, or varied. Don't do anything in a fight that IF you lose, the gamblers who backed you will blame you and the gym for. This is deskilling. one reason why Thai fighters have been the best in the world isn't just that they have trained and fought young. It's also that they have been at the apron of fights, watched the shape of the traditional aesthetic, socially absorbing a great deal of fight knowledge. At the rope, even as cornermen or impromtu coaches. Its not just the doing, its the participation in the Form of Life that is traditional Muay Thai, bringing a depth of IQ. As small gyms and kaimuay across the country lose power in Bangkok, social power, they have to exist in very narrow economic margins, which means that technique wise their fighters have to fight in very narrow lanes. The spontaneous and the creative is too risky, because gyms don't want to be blamed. Fighters cannot explore or develop new ways of winning fights. There is a secondary dimension in this, as the downfall of the Thai kaimuay is told, which is IF a small gym does produce a particularly strong talent, this talent will not become a resource for the gym, adding honors to the gym (championship belts, etc), growing the gym through his presence. Instead, if you produce a talent this talent will be ostensibly stolen from you. Not outright stolen, but you will be pressured to "sell" their contract to a big Bangkok gym. This pressure will usually come from the fighter's parents, who want success and fame for their son, and the esteem of a bigger name, and it will come from within the hierarchies of the sport. The sale will happen. Instead of a developed talent adding to the richness of a gym's culture and growing their talent own pool of younger fighters who want to share in the glow of gym success, instead you'll be financially compensated with a contract sale. Some money in the pocket, to the gym owner, but not the kind of verdant growth a talent would have brought in the past, something that would shine across all the krus and padmen, and younger fighters in the kaimuay. And, fighters now are being extracted from small gyms younger and younger. The comparison is fruit being picked from trees more and more less ripe. Not only are fighters in general entering the Bangkok stadia with far less experience and development in the past, fighters are also being swept up by big gyms at a much higher rate, at an earlier state of their development. The ecosystem of the small gym, 100,000s of them, is being starved out. And its that ecosystem that historically had produced so much of the foundational complexity that gave Bangkok fighting so much of its renown diversity. Fighters that entered Bangkok stadia used to be much more complex and experienced, and then once they got there the complexity and experience of that scene increased and amplified them, spurred them to greater growth. Now, its the opposite. Arriving in a Bangkok stable may very well nullify your potential. We might add to this that the large big name gym stables of Bangkok today, that have swept up much of Thailand's diminishing promising talent, concentrating it, have become more like holding houses of that talent, and fighter factories for promotions, and less like developmental houses as old Bangkok gyms like Muangsurin, Thanikul, Pinsinchai, Dejrat, Sor Ploenjit had been, promotion favorites which maintained not only a kaimuay developmental creativity, but also more lasting connection with provincial sources. Muay Dek and Facing Power So, the good news is, despite all these forces against creativity, against small gym development, Thailand is still producing very high level Thai fighters from youth. These fighters fight with complexity and freedom, full of sanae, technical excellence, narrative control, quite different than their older counterparts who have learned to strip away their individuality attempting to preserve leads in gambling's stadium Muay Thai. I'm not sure what to account for this other than to believe that Thailand in its heart still maintains the aesthetics and richness that created the acme of the sport in the Golden Age, these qualities haven't been stamped out yet...it is only when fighters get to a certain maturity, when they are fighting for gamblers without a lot of social power themselves, protecting tiny leads, that they lose these qualities. They become deskilled. There is another element to the mystery of why these Muay Dek fighters lose their skills when they age. Kru Gai at Silk tells Sylvie: It's easier to be femeu when everyone is low weight, and nobody has power. Muay Dek fighters develop all this complexity because there is no "power" consequence for their experimentation at low weights. And one can see how this makes a serious amount of intuitional sense. Gamblers today favor more "power" in Muay Thai, so femeu fighters enter contexts where suddenly there are consequences that limit what you can do. But, if you take a moment to think about it, femeu fighting youth of the Golden Age also once they hit a certain age encountered "power" in opponents. But, instead of losing their skill sets at maturity, they actually grew as fighters, became more complex, more creative, more effective...against power. Someone like Karuhat was fighting up two weight classes in the 1990s, a very femeu fighter, against very powerful opponents. It's can't be that encountering the maturation of "power" is the thing that is shutting down the development of the youth, who have already developed so much prior. In fact, there seems a rough parallel between artful youth fighters of the Golden Age and now. Both of them hit this "wall" at a certain age. But in the Golden Age this accelerated their growth, today it stunts it, and even regresses it. I suspect it has to do with the overall conservative form of stadium gambling Muay Thai, the entire incentive and punishment system that produces a lot of tiny-lead chasing...and this goes back to the dis-empowerment and erosion of the small gyms that feed the sport, developing the fighters. The best fighters in all of Thailand are the Muay Dek fighters. It is the closest thing to a natural lineage with the greatness of the past. But right now...there is no way forward for them. No way for them to allow their expressiveness of character and technique to expand and not be disciplined into submission, dulled. They have to face the trad conservative ecosystem, or have to turn to the hyper-aggression of entertainment promotions, each of which robs them of a vocabulary of control and expression.

This perspective is related to our manifesto of values and a priority on provincial fighting in Thailand.

The championship fight was such a perfect illustration of "basics make champions." Not fancy, not showy, just incredibly solid foundations.

This was their fight back in August, where Marie pulled out the upset. I believe Marie was a last minute replacement in that fight. Useful to compare the fights.

You could just pick a high-level gym in a European city, just live and train there for however long you want (a month?). Lots of gyms have morning and evening classes.

I've recently been contacted by the head of a small gym in Samut Prakan (below Bangkok). The gym is small, mostly kids, but he's inviting westerners (both female/male) to come train with him and fight out of his gym. If you are in Thailand and wanting an experience of a local, small gym that isn't geared toward commercial training, maybe give this a try. No English, so just use a translator on your phone. Contact on FB: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61571372517312&mibextid=ZbWKwL https://maps.app.goo.gl/ELoJohV8qcGSSydd6

Some thoughts on women fighter's bodies and inevitable changes between childhood and adolescence, as well as a changing landscape for Thai women fighters: this age range where female fighters hit their peak and are more or less forced to slow down due to that success (because it's harder to get fights, the side bet becomes enormous, etc) is right around when male fighters hit a rough spot as well. I can't count the number of times I've remarked on how promising some 11-14 year old boy looks and his trainer will wave his hand and say, "let's see if he can make it through motorbikes and girls," which is at around 15-18 years old, when the majority of male fighters also drop off and either become undisciplined or take on salaried jobs. Romantic relationships, increased importance of friend groups outside of the gym, and changes to the body all account for why both male and female fighters have a steep hill as they hit adolescence. Boys have a better incentive to keep fighting, as they might belong to bigger gyms or have better opportunities; girls might be pressured by family to focus on school, or the consequences of romantic (sexual) heterosexual relationships might take them out of fighting, which it doesn't do for boys in the same way. Dangkongfah and Nong Biew are an interesting pair, both listed in Kevin's write up. Nong Biew was kind of this rising star, getting a lot of notoriety and attention as this relentless Muay Khao teenager who could pull in wins with big side bets. Dangkongfah was that, but without any of the social hype; kind of the mavric version of the prize fighter. She could get backers to put money on her and she could win these big fights, but she wasn't taken seriously in the way that other "dao rung" teenage stars are (Nong Biew, Thanonchanok, Sanaejahn, Pornpan, Sawsing, Chommanee, Duannapa). What was so fantastic is that these two young women kept getting these huge side bets put up for them to face each other, they'd get booked on a show, they'd both weigh in and arrive to the venue and then somehow we'd always read about one of them or the other storming out without fighting because something about the side-bet had changed. We even witnessed this first-hand once. I'm not sure they ever fought. But Dangkongfah vs Allycia for the first ever 1 million baht side bet in history was the culmination of what Dangkongfah's trajectory had been. The change in female bodies is also much trickier than it is for male bodies. Male fighters might go up in weight at a rapid clip - look at 2012 for Sangmanee, who rocketed up in weight, taking belts in multiple weight classes within a single year. You'll see this in the Golden Age as well. So this rapid change in the body and increase in weight is not exclusive to either gender, but because women's bodies are coded against sport and strength in culture, when women's bodies become larger, softer, show hips or breasts, all of these get coded as being reasons or signs that she can no longer be a strong fighter. Couple that with the normal number of fighters who retire and drop off, and it seems like the point is proven (even though boys drop off, too, but girls are blamed for that one, too). Dangkongfah, as the example that Kevin is writing about above, was never a small girl. When we met her at 15 she was already quite heavy for her frame. That's just how her body wants to be. She's crazy strong and fit, never seems to gas out, and knows when to push to turn a fight into a blowout. She lost a lot of weight when she was at Fairtex for that short time, and was at her smallest-looking in the ONE fight aganst Meksen that Kevin posted, but she honestly looks the best she ever has in this recent fight. Her body works at the size it's at. Other fighters that are in Kevin's write up, they gained a lot of weight in a short amount of time and it semed to take a toll on their fighting. But this is coupled with training less, fighting less, and in the case of a few of these women, taking time out to give birth to a baby. Which I think is amazing, because that was definitely the end to a woman's career not that long ago. But Sawsing was really the first example I can think of who came back and fought high-profile after having her first son. There are other women who have had children and kept fighting, but usually on local circuits and, again, written off because of their "not the same" bodies after such intense changes as giving birth to a child. Nong Biew fought again after her first baby was born, and it didn't go well. Allycia came back and defended her title, successfully. Faa Chiangrai came back and became WBC World Champion. These things are incredible. Men who have families (and Thais have families very young, so a lot of high profile stadium fighters are fathers to young children) absolutely have difficulties in their own training and fighting due to the responsibilities, but their bodies don't go through the same inalterable changes as birthing parents do. And men aren't written off for becoming fathers, they're kind of given a little bit of sympathy and considered less competitive as a result. Women are totally dismissed once they have children. These women who come back to fighting are just amazing.

What a Fight. One of Most Personally Enjoyable Female Fights I've Seen in a Long Time I may not expect others to thrill at this fight as much as Sylvie and I did, but Dangkongfah vs Karolina Lisowska of Poland was just quite an experience for us to watch. A big part of that joy was being so familiar with Thai female fighters in Thailand (Sylvie has fought nearly 150 Thais, easily the most any Westerner has fought), so in explaining what made this fight so awesome for us I get to tell the story of Thai female fighters in general, over the past 10 years or so, so I can point out just how good Dangkongfah's performance was. As a sidenote, none of what I write is significant commentary on Karonlina, a fighter I do not know. Appreciating That Female Fighters, Understanding Their Development The best Thai female fighters, historically, but also still, develop their skills in the side bet circuits where local fight scenes in the provinces produce top fighters in a gambling milieu. The female fighters fight a lot, and the fights are very traditional in style (which is to say, narratively driven, balance, control and dominance being major scoring factors, purity of technique rewarded, and with clinch a significant part of all cards). Local top fighters travel around to other local top fighters in festivals, and the bet sizes go up. This prize-fighting scene produces highly skilled, complex fighters...but they tend to hit their apex around 14-15. That's when they are fighting the most frequently, training hard, and are actively being sharpened by the gambling. Once they get around that age they stop fighting so much (often because it is harder to find opponents, but also in terms of just the changing social status of young women). They can still be very, very good fighters, but they usually flatten out. In the past great fighters like Chomanee, Lomannee, Sawsing, Loma, and Phetjee Jaa came out like this. These are the yodmuay of Thai female fighting. In their later teens they might fight on the Thai National Team (amateur), but really in terms of development by 16 the peak of sidebet skill driving is missing (this side bet process is what traditionally drives the skills of male Thai fighters, well into their late 20s or even 30s, in the National Stadia. The next gen after the one mentioned above, because the side bet scenes have been eroding, haven't really produced the classic female "yodmuay", the one who takes on all comers, and has reached the apex level in the traditional way. Potential side bet yodmuay came through like Nongbiew and Pornphan, pretty strong fighters at 15 or so, but nobody reaching those past levels (Sylvie fought both of these fighters when they were at their apex, giving up significant weight). What ended up happening in this gen is that with the rise of Entertainment Muay Thai mid-level Thai female fighters, and some top level, from the side bet circuit were brought into Entertainment oriented training. A lot of these fighters who had developed a timing and narrative prize fighting game were newly taught bite-down and combo fighting (which is pretty foreign to them). Entertainment Muay Thai wanted clashing, so female Thai fighters (who were timing fighters) learned instead how to just come in with memorized strikes. Some, got good at this, and did well in Entertainment Muay Thai, but most floundered a bit. They were fighting out of their element, away from their skill set. Always the Underdog The interesting thing about Dangkongfah is that she rode this wave of opportunity in Entertainment Muay Thai, she began using combos and clashing, becoming recognized on (televised) Super Champ, which was somewhat promoting her as a Thai story, but she really wasn't pretty with it at all. She in fact had been in the Fairtex stable around with Stamp was taken in and began being fashioned into an Entertainment star, but Dangkongfah was not taken seriously, perhaps viewed somewhat as a backwardish Isaan fighter, from the countryside. What people didn't appreciate, and what Entertainment Muay Thai didn't really care about, about Dangkongfah is that she's a highly developed prize-fighter, she is really, really, REALLY good at managing a fight, in the traditional sense. She doesn't usually LOOK like she's doing much, but she is really good. So Dangkongfah was something of the Cinderella step-sister to Stamp at Fairtex. She left Fairtex, had some recognition on Hard Core (an Entertainment, small-glove show), and then got some revenge on Entertainment Muay Thai. The excellent Allycia Rodrigues beat Stamp for the ONE World Muay Thai title in August of 2020, and then one month later Dangkongfah faced Allycia for the Thailand belt (trad Muay Thai). She beat the ONE World Champion for the belt, not looking pretty at all in her combo-ish strking, but managing the fight with the brilliance of a fighter who had been fighting for prizes since a kid. It must have been a tremendously satisfying win. Allycia would then defend her ONE belt vs Janet Todd 6 months later. Around this time Dangkongfah also took the 112 lb WBC World title vs Souris Manfredi, in a fight set up basically with the aim of giving Souris the opportunity for the much desired title shot - there had been many roadblocks. Again, in a way that was probably frustrating to her opponent, Dangkongfah controlled time and distance, walking away with the belt. She's just such an interesting fighter, but to see it, to feel it, you have to have her in the traditional ruleset. When she fought Meksen in ONE Entertainment Muay Thai, fish out of water trying to trade wonky combos in that style with an experienced fighter, with some visible size, who will just combo cleaning up the middle. It was a blowout. Dangkongfah had gone up to Buakaw's Banchamek gym, which had worked with talented trad female fighters trying to help them fight in the Entertainment, Kickboxing style. Sylvie's long time opponent Nanghong Liangprasert (now using the fighter name: Nong Faasai PK Saenchai) was up there. Again, this seems to largely be trad teaching timing, narrative Muay Thai fighters how to throw Entertainment combos, so they can get fight opportunities in the growing Entertainment versions of the sport. There is another element to this story, and the appreciation of this beautiful fight (on Patong Fight Night) which is that some young Thai side bet fighters end up on commercialized gyms like Banchamek or Fairtex and start weight training and drilling combinations, but many others move out of their teen situations and stop training hard at all. They will be adding combos so they can fight and clash in Entertainment Muay Thai vs Westerners, but they will gain weight pretty quickly. By the time they are 18 or so a 51 kg fighter can easily be a 60+ kg fighter, facing Westerners. They will have added a bite-down style for Entertainment, but many are outside of the rigorous training that made them quite good when they were 14-15. This is enough to say, when we see a Thai female fighter on television, who was once pretty skilled and sharp, often someone Sylvie has fought when they were apex, and they have gained a lot of weight, the first thought is: Are they training hard? Are they running? Will they gas? And, will they just be throwing combos (which really isn't their deeper skill set)? The expectation is that they no longer are peak. This is what made Dangkongfah's performance so stunning, and so enjoyable...so admirable. She has gained a substantial amount of weight. She's only 22, but the guess would be that she was quite far from her peak as a fighter. She was NOT far from her peak...in fact this is probably the best I've ever seen her fight. We've seen maybe 5 fights of hers, including when she was maybe 13 in Isaan, we know her arc really well. She was so good. I feel bad for her opponent Karonlina because there is no way she could know how good Dangkongfah is. And looking at her she might have thought she'd have it easy. This was a late replacement fight. It was NOT easy. This is what I LOVED about Dangkongfah's performance. First, she was able to fight in the traditional style, which is HER art. So much praise for Num Noi (the promoter) for creating a REAL traditional show, right in the heart of Phuket tourism. You need a properly reffed, full-rules setting to see what Dangkongfah is, since a kid. But, what is even more cool is that wherever Dangkongfah is training they gave her a wicked jab. In fact she worked almost the entire fight through one of my favorite inner games for a fighter, Jap-Teep in combination. But these are not memorized combinations, this is using them in a creative game of timing, changing levels, intensity, feints. Entire fights can be fought through just these two strikes, and Dangkongfah is doing it at a very high level. She actually isn't teeping much, but her teep-fake is so hard (with the knee bounce) it makes the opponent bite. The form of that feignt is almost as good as a teep itself, changing levels. Just watching these two lead attacks, and the sharp quality of her jab was a thing of beauty. She had practically given up all together the wild combos she had taken up for Entertainment Muay Thai, she had returned to her timing art. This was very moving for me. By the 3rd round her jab and teep had subtly managed to change Karolina's fight distance, putting her "on the porch" as Sylvie and I like to say, exactly where Dangkongfah wanted her, so she could control, negate and counter. In the 4th Karolina figured it out, her distance was wrong, and she tried to walk through the porch, but it was too late. Dangkonfah is very experienced with this. She just muddied up the 4th with clashes and more jabs and teeps, (a big teep to the ground to establish stylistic dominance) denying any change in the fight. She is expert at spoiling the clinch, and it served her very well, draining away any chance for a change. It had already been decided in the 3rd, in terms of style and narrative, and she just used the 4th to lock it away. Then in the 5th it was a walk home with the lead in the trad style. This is how I like to watch fights. I don't really watch strikes. I see them like anything else, but I like to watch distance control and timing, the way the fighter manages these things. Also, even though she had put on significant weight, she looked FANTASTIC. She wasn't winded at all (maybe a little in the 4th round some of the edge came off?), she was incredibly light on her feet (lighter than in many of her past fights), she moved like an optical illusion, subtly shifting, driving, changing angles. As a basketball fan I have a certain weakness for very light-footed, super skilled big boys like Charles Barkley or Big Baby Davis (above). When athletes are big bodied, but display finesses, touch, speed and agility, its just plain stunning. And looking at her, it even seem possible that even though she's much bigger than even a year ago, she may be power lifting? She just looked fantastic, like even though this isn't a normie body, this is HER body, and she looked totally at home in it, even maybe apex in it. All these things together just made the fight unbelievably joyous to watch (nothing against Karolina who fought admirably). Dankongfah as the continual underdog, from Fairtex dropout to wild Entertainment combo-ist, here getting to do HER art, and with these beautiful new tools, tools of real Muay Thai, in a promotion that favors the trad art. And that she's found a place in her body where she just is being her, being free in the ring, in a non-trad body, using all her skills and instinct. Seeing this wonderful fighter having a place, a trajectory. It meant a lot.

I wonder if that is Nungubon's gym. Nungubon does have transfer over to Hongtong (the Hongtong boys are from Ubon), in fact I believe that farang who handles Nungubon's IG trains at Hongtong at times, if I'm not mistaken. More broadly though, thanks for such an informative, and personally grounded post to help others out Joseph, good stuff!

Hey Alex, the other big dude here. I've been 3 times in Thailand and to a dozen gyms, so I think I might be able to help a bit. Silk Muay Thai, in Pattaya, is a great suggestion by Kevin. A friend of mine trained there for a while and fought a bunch of time at Max Muay Thai. The level is pretty high and quite a few westerners there. But I never been there. I would say, you need a gym with primarily Westerners or where a few westerners regularly train. I found that training with Thais was a "problem" only when sparring, but not training and clinching. By problem I mean that I find that size difference matter more in sparring. Thai are so strong and technical in the clinch, they can "overcome" size more easily than when sparring. The reach is a killer. For training, with pad holders, most gym will have a pad holder that is bigger for the big guys to whom you'll be assigned. For clinching, they always paired me with the strongest Thai and even if they were never taller than maybe 5'9", 5'10" and usually at least 60lbs lighter, they always, always dominated me. Some made me cry by dominating and raggdolling me around, which they enjoy quite a bit, the tossing around not making me crying lol.. (luckily, I sweat like no one, so who sees tears in sweat). Personally, Hong Thong Muay Thai in Chiang Mai, is my favorite gym, the owner Joe and the team there are just the best. They have very good connections if you want to fight and Chiang Mai is the best city in Thailand for my taste. There are a bunch of westerners there. Big turnaround, but you'll usually find some pretty big guys. The only thing is you'd be arriving in Jan. and the Smoky season starts like end of Feb. I did not have any problem with it, but I was lucky, there was basically none of it that year. Some say it's really bad, others don't. Sitjaopho in Hua Hin is another one with a lot of westerners and a Sweden or Norvegian connection (because one of the twins live there) so there are usually big(ish) guys. I personally did not like this gym, I had a very weird experience and would never go back, but so many people love it. If you want a very traditional setting, there are two brits brothers in Ubon who are like 6'7" and 6'6", significantly taller than me as I am 6'3". They are skinny, around 85kg if I remember well, but at that height, it's was a very good fit for me as I am not a lean 120kg, so not that strong. They were training alone in a gym that closed, they moved to a very traditional gym. I don't know the name but I could find out. They also often go to Hong Thong to train and fight in Chiang Mai. If you want I could put you in contact. Another option is Emerald in Krabi (and Phuket, they now have two gyms). The owner is a former European champion. He's very involved in the training and is there everyday. He's not a small guy and "destroyed' me in the clinch and sparring. But it's a French heavy gym. Which personally I like cause it's my first language and I am half french, but the personal connection might not be as good if you're not. French are... well French. Finally, I you're in Bangkok a few days, I would suggest going to pk saenchai gym. It's one of these gyms who "buys" fighters like Tawanchai and it's quite a treat to train besides a bunch of champions. There are a few westerners, but just to see how hard they train and the level. It's worth it. You have to impose yourself a bit if you want to spare and clinch and all, but once they see you train hard, it's all respect. I would say that's a golden rule for "overweight" people like me, leave it all there. Try not to look tired and try to be among the people who train the hardest. Thai are quite into fat shaming; they have no problem grabbing your belly and shaking it saying "why you so fat". A bit hard on the ego, but.... it is what it is. I found the first few days, they kind of automatically think I am a tourist who knows fuck all about Muay Thai and that I am absolutely out of shape (I think maybe that was the issue at Sitjaphaopho). But once they see your technique is decent and that you train hard and you have heart, then it's all good and I would say, they actually enjoy very much sparring and clinching with giants. They LOVE clinching with big dude and throwing them on the ground. They really enjoy it. So that's my 23 cents. Hope it helps. Please don't hesitate to reach out. I've been to other gyms, but these are the one I stayed for longer.

The Enjoyment of Festival Fights https://www.facebook.com/watch/live/?ref=watch_permalink&v=942850751079497 So enjoying this Udon festival fight stream, found via Egokind (https://x.com/Egokind1) This is the real of Muay Thai. Hell, the last fight with kids was pulling 6K viewers in the stream, while RWS was pulling 2K. There was a Japanese fighter earlier (guessing from appearances), maybe big-for-his-age 12, or maybe 14, who gave it his all as the Thai illegal tripped him endlessly, such a very real experience for him. Just hearing the crowd of gamblers and community shout on every strike, even the local commercials, this is just beautiful stuff. Hard to explain how satisfying it is when it its not just a "show" for tourists. I say this, as two...maybe "influencers"?? (who don't have much Muay Thai, or once had Muay Thai, but now seem to have have quite a bit of animosity), go hard at each other in the ring, right now. There is a difference between a "show" that is a commercial product, and what I would call Thai spectacle. Spectacle is understood as unreal (thus, "does not count", un-significant). Thailand's Muay Thai, in its cultural fabric, can weave the spectacle and the real, together...which is why Entertainment Muay Thai, as a tv phenomena in Thailand, was so hard to read. It was completely unreal...spectacle (Thai Fight & MAX in those days)...but then it started making claims of the real, even the "most real". In festival fights like these you can get an entire spectrum of Muay Thai, in all its shades and colors, from spectacle to the very real. Kids on the come up, Old Men, rising stars, big side-bet fights. It's like a fair of Muay Thai. The most wonderful is that you get the full ruleset in the provinces, including repeated and continuous clinch fighting, and very strong aesthetic sense of narrative in scoring. Everyone understands stories are being told, and they are being told at all distances, in a full range of skills, even among the less skilled. It is the spoken story of bodies.

Also I think, aside from even the ideas (and values) inside of all our heads is that what must be respected is just how authentically people experience Thailand in differing ways. It is a transportive country, and Muay Thai, no matter how you encounter it, has a way of opening foreigners up and showing themselves a possibility that is extremely meaningful...to them.

Yes, Lamnammoon is a perfect example (too bad he kind of has left go of his ambitions to restart his gym). He has that aura, that presence, that vision, that ethic.

I recently got a concussion from my last fight. It was a really rough fight and I didn’t perform as well as I could have. It’s been a few weeks and I’m still dealing with some emotional and cognitive symptoms from the concussion (memory issues, irritability etc). I am having a tough time getting back into training… it just all feels “off” and I’m not enjoying it the way I used to. Any tips with recovering from a concussion, and how to get my passion for the sport back?

This. Another form of writing.

Violence and Muay Thai "violence does not participate in any order of reasons, nor any set of forces oriented towards results. It denatures, wrecks, and massacres that which it assaults. Violence does not transform what it assaults; rather, it takes away its form and meaning’" Think about this in terms of Thailand's Muay Thai and fighting. The purpose of the rite and practice is not to denature the other.

Consider not turnover over the kick, and instead working on the classic more upright Golden Kick: You can read more about it here: https://8limbsus.com/muay-thai-thailand/golden-kick-how-to-improve-your-thai-kick The turn over aspect of the kick is often over emphasized by non-Thai krus who don't really see all the connective tissue in the Thai Kick (generally). Most of the classic kicks turn very late in the arc, because they want to keep the opponent centered, and they don't want to be out of position for more continuous offensive flow. You can see more about Karuhat's kick here: #111 The Karuhat Rosetta Stone 7 - The Secrets of the Matador (83 min) watch it here Karuhat is the most documented Golden Age legend in history, thanks to the sum of all the filming and commentary we've been able to do with him. This session though provide the key to understanding all the other sessions. And there is a very special focus on his particular Golden Kick. An alternate kicking style: #143 Takrowlek Dejrat - Master of the Low Kick (90 min) watch it here One of the great low kicking fighters of the Golden Age teaches his squared up, pressuring, Muay Beuk fight philosophy which uses an extremely fast, vertical low kicking technique that keeps the opponent exactly where you want them. This punishing style, built on defense and ring control is extremely effective, using techniques that are not often taught. Study the low kick in a way you haven't seen before.

After a little bit of research, and contemplation, I figured the kyokushin close quarters kicking is the best approach to study.

Karuhat is not a tall fighter, and usually fought opponents much bigger, taller than him. He's a difficult fighter to emulate because his eyes were so good, and his timing impeccable, but his muay is full of great qualities.

It feels like after 10 months of doing Muay Thai, these regular classes aren't really doing much help for me. We are doing 5 punch, 3 kick combos, that they are hard to apply in real sparring. Or we are hitting bags. It feels like Sparring with mouthguard has dramatically improved my ability by 10x fold. I literally get 10 practices in 1. It forces me to jab correctly, slip, kick with good rotation. Does anyone feel the same way? I still go to practice, but sparring is much more powerful in technique improvement.

above, the cut back stem of our Adenium obesum "Desert Rose" and the bloom that came from the cutting, photo taken this morning Karuhat's Flower September 24th, 2024 - In the development of skills in Muay Thai everyone is trying to "add" things. New techniques, new training, new moves, new tricks. This is a desert Rose we bought when traveling with Karuhat in Isaan. We saw the unusual plant at a rest stop, it reminded me of the bulbous, massive trees in The Little Prince, so we bought one. He told us that in Thai it's called "The Show Stopper", or some rough equivalent to that, because its flowers were so stunning people walking by just have to stop and look. If you know Karuhat's Muay Thai, perhaps the most beautiful that's ever been, it seemed very fitting that we bought this plant with him. We're not gardeners, we keep a yard somewhat inexpertly. And we read up on the plant, how it has growing seasons, its general needs. But no matter what it did the flowers wouldn't come. Little proto-buds would show, and then die and drop off, even when the branches were verdant. He knows how to care for them, and would visit us and help steer us the right way. Here is an early visit when the plant was quite bare. It wouldn't flower for a year. He visited again and told us "You have to cut it back", and then told us about something you paint onto the cutting end to seal it, to force the lift energies into a bloom. Before Sylvie left to travel a week ago she cut it back here. A week later this bloom at photo top. This is the thing about Thailand's Muay Thai. It seems like when you come here its just this incredibly verdant fight culture. There are techniques and beautiful fighters, and gyms and krus everywhere. It feels like all this is quite natural, like it just spontaneously grew here, and as a fighter a lot of the times it feels like you are just walking around and picking wonderful fruits that you put in your fighter basket. You want this elbow here, and this guard over here. And this "combo" (there really aren't combos in Thailand's Muay Thai, but we turn it into combos so they can be exported). And, if you are Instagram and watching demos, you are collecting these techniques, some of them quite far removed from their source. The Secret of Restraint, of Cutting Away This is the secret about Thailand's Muay Thai. Once you have the plant well soiled, watered and fertilized, all those "flowers" that are loved come from pruning, from "cutting back". You cut back on the branch to produce the bloom. It's not an additive process. And this is the part of the art that simply isn't known much at all throughout the rest of the world...how to garden the muay of a fighter. Everyone is copying flowers, picking them off branches, mixing them with aggression, trying to change the rules of the sport to force more and more flowers (knockouts, etc)...but the actual gardening of the art is dying. Which branches need to be cut back and when? This is one of the concerns with the new commercialized much more aggressive versions of Entertainment Muay Thai. Some of most important cutting backs and prunings of Muay Thai occur at the emotional level, almost a spiritual level. It grows at the root of many of our impulses toward violence. Feelings of anger, even rage, are intentionally prune back. They are not the emotions of action (like they are often in the West). The pruning back of these feelings and their display is one of the most important aspects of Thailand's Muay Thai, and is probably quite close to the reason why it produces such beautiful blooms, blooms that are the envy of the world. It's because, even though being one of the most violent combat sports (at times), it is traditionally powerfully cut back at the emotional level. The Technical and Psychological An example of the unpruned emotion can be seen in Namkabuan's fights vs Matee. There is this highlight below where he somewhat spectacularly falls out of the ring and just jumps back in attacking, not even waiting for the ref to reset the fight. There is another when he unleashes wild elbows that make highlight reels, falling off balance but it all feeling like an onslaught. As mentioned below, for Namkabuan the whole thing felt very unpruned and wasn't something to be praised for. These are events that in Entertainment versions would be cheered on by shouting announcers and bounced all over IG streams...these moments of loss of control are almost the purpose of the new versions of Muay Thai, quietly undermining the life force art that gives Muay Thai its technical brilliance and even more so the sublime fights of the past. Namkabuan is now past, Rest in Power glorious legend. It is the control, but even more so, the pruning back of the plant that is the soul, if you want the bloom. When I see foreign fighters, who clearly train very, very hard in their techniques, unleashing high volume strikes, one after the other after the other after the other, often in memorized combinations they've learned on the pads and on the bag, their is a very real sense that this is a plant that is incredibly overgrown. There are leaves and leaves, but no blooms. They were like our plant, before Karuhat told us that it needs to be cut back. Unfortunately though, this is an art, and an aesthetic that isn't easily passed onto others, especially to non-Thais. That's because it comes from the Form of Life that is Thailand's Muay Thai, grown in its small kaimuay across the whole country, in its festivals and local stadia. In its urban gyms, its traditional stadia, within the gambers and their aesthetics. It's a cultural expression, but it is founded upon a sense of pruning back. Of gardening. When I saw this flower today I took a picture of it and sent it to Sylvie who as I mentioned is in Italy. I was just astounded at how fast and strong the bloom had come after we had been waiting for it for a year or more, simply by cutting it back (and knowing to paint the cutting over with a special mixture). The parallels to Muay Thai seemed so plentiful, for fighters very often try to develop certain techniques or qualities, often for years, but that "bloom" never comes, or only comes palely. I wanted to know how she saw process of pruning in Muay Thai, as she is a fighter who has engaged in the sport in Thailand like no other, just massive amounts of fights, the most prolific Western Muay Thai fighter in history, an unparalleled study with legends, and endless hours in the training ring. Here is he secret for blooms that are slow to come. Prune back. This is some of our conversation: vocabulary: Jangwah (จังหวะ) = rhythm, timing, Tammachat (ธรรมชาติ) = natural, indicated by being smooth & at ease, Ning (นิ่ง) = being at ease & unaffected, Mua (มัว) = obscure, clouded, confused Perspectives on Growth and Pruning There at least two very distinct but related levels to thinking about this. As a fighter, struggling to improve in the art, best is not to think primarily of additive processes. The pruning back of oneself, both at the level of techniques, tactics and strategy, but also at the emotional level very well may be the path to much strained for growth. To cut back isn't to "do less", its actually cutting off a living branch, sealing it off, so that its vital force will force itself out into bloom, further down, closer to the main stem. Technically, the main stems are the foundational principles and movements of the sport...which is why some of the most spectacular Muay Thai fighters of Thailand actually are fighting from place of basics. The second level of thinking about this is about the sport itself. We are told "Muay Thai has to grow!" or, "It's great that the sport is growing!" in its various new hybrid incarnations, many of them adopting Western or Internalized emotional pictures of fighting. Additive growth does not necessarily produce the flowers. And the tourism of Muay Thai is founded on the fact that it produces so many show stopping blooms, unparalleled skills and a form of fighting that exists nowhere else in the world. Right now, in this generation, we still have men who know how to prune in the art. They were raised in the kaimuay of traditional Muay Thai, they fought in its rings, and they understand the process of cutting back, the aesthetics of control. But this generation of knowledge is vulnerable. They are at an age already when maybe 10 more years and they'll no longer be shaping fighters. The processes of Muay Thai's creation lies withing their knowledge of its creation. It isn't in the "techniques". It isn't bio-mechanical. It's a spirit of understanding the flower of violence, and what it means for the human being...distilled into a craft, a craft of pruned-back fighting. btw, as a note, this is Arjan Surat who we mention in our texts. He is perhaps among the oldest of this last gen, holding pads every day in his 70s.

I don’t see how you can go wrong at any of the gyms you mention , sit Thailand has a great gym and is technically brilliant. My son 13 was there last year and they treated him so well , we are back now and they seem to be growing with more trainers than before . They fight regularly and have Thais and farangs fighting . They seem to have a connection with Spain as both times there have been decent Spanish fighters there . They have girls training and fighting . It’s 75bht in a bolt from the old town and takes 15 mins Hongthong is a similar distance from our hotel . Ultimately people will tell you their preference but that might not suit you

I've been to Watchara gym a few times for PT but haven't tried their group classes. Its more of a "casual" gym (its air conditioned (which is not a bad thing!), clientele are (mainly) non-fighters) but the trainers are knowledgeable/experienced. Honestly i've hopped around in BKK for a bit and i haven't come across objectively bad trainers - its more about finding one that has a personality/teaching style that fits you. The gym is used to foreigners (you book classes through Klook). If you do go for PTs I would recommend Em - he does focus on technique and speaks very good English. You can do privates with them on Sundays (most gyms close on Sundays). If you go gym hopping in BKK and want more training on Sunday, you could try them out for a Sunday PT session.

Sometimes the podcasts go into these concepts. Not the Library though, it's all documentation. I write about these some on my subforum, for instance this article:

The Library is just really unusual content. There aren't really any demos or how tos. They are more like hour long physical dialogues with great legends of the sport. But, some sessions do have specific bagwork sections where a lot can be learned. Legends teach how they did bagwork, and how they trained techniques on the bags. Here is a list of sessions with bagwork in them, but you would have to watch the whole session. Colored sessions are some of the best overall sessions. Arjan Surat 1 - Old School Master Metprik Silachai - Old School Muay Maat Lowkick Pressure Yodwicha Por Boonsit 3 - Spearing the Middle, Fighting With Rhythm Wangchannoi Palangchai 1 - Deadly Step Counter Fighting Arjan Surat 2 - His Old School Tough & Defensive Style Langsuan Panyutapum - Monster Muay Khao Training Samson Isaan 1 - The Art of Dern Fighting Dieselnoi Chor Thanasukarn 2 - Muay Khao Craft Boraphet Pinsinchai 1 - Muay Khao Mastery Yodwicha Por Boonsit 2 - Clinch Techniques & Defense Dieselnoi Chor Thanasukarn 1 - The King of Knees Wangchannoi Sor Palangchai 3 - Advancing Counterfighting Matee Jedeepitak - The Keys To Femeu Timing & Distance Kaisuwit "Kru Pern" - Muay Maat Centrifugal Power Eagle Den Junlaphan 2 - Boxing Within Muay Thai Arjan Yai Muangsupan - Golden Age Forms & Dynamics Jampatong Na Nonthachai - The Master of the Head Kick Pudpadnoi Worawut - The Basics from the Legend Phetdam Sor Suradet - Style, Rhythm, and Timing Gulapkao Na Nonthachai - Old School Forms & Rhythms Tepniramit Sitsamnao | Defend and Punish Pairojnoi Sor. Siamchai - Balance, Footwork & Intensity Chanchai Sor. Tummarungsri - The King of Teeps Kru Ali Phet Kalim - Old School Forgotten Principles Manop Manop Gym 1 - The Art of the Teep Krongsak Prakong-Boranrat - That Shoving Energy Silapathai Jockygym - Master of Teep Distance Hippy Singmanee 1 - Developing Power Thanks for all the kind words and support. As a beginner it may take a bit of effort to get into it, but because you are connecting to the pure thing, the real thing, the benefits will really be amazing.

Wangchannoi is no longer at the gym, he has moved to a small gym in Cambodia. Bangsaen had indicated westerners were welcome to train with the gym, but it Isa true Thai gym and ther aren't many options nearby so staying at the gym seems most likely the only accommodation if you intend to stay beyond a couple days. They don't have social media in English, so I'd recommend just going to the gym and pleading your case: https://maps.app.goo.gl/4N8wMms2sU3xkeBbA

Thanks for providing this. I am beginner as well been only training for about a few months and am looking to suscribe to the pattern to access some of these sessions. Just curious are there specific exercises or bag work drills or other things that the videos clearly lay out that we can practice or is it more the knowledge of the techniques and then we have to figure out how to put the techniques into practice? I also wanted to say thank you and Sylvie so much for putting this together. The videos I have watched of you guys on YouTube really put into perspective the real essence of the Muay Thai culture that I feel is sometimes lacking in the gym I train in here in North America. My gym I train at is good for training but I do not get the same kind of education about the philosophy, spirituality and ethics I get in some of your podcast videos so thank you. Are there any specifics videos on the library that you suggest that has learnings on the philosophy or spiritual side of Muay Thai from any of the legends or Krus. Thank you too much again, your work is great appreciated!

Kathoey is not a Thailand-specific cultural identity, so you can use this word for yourself here without any problem. It's not the most polite word, but it is the most common word and speaking to your trainers and promoters, this is the word everyone will use. It is also how Trans folks here refer to themselves, outside of formal writing. I think your chances would be best for fighting up in the North, in Chiang Mai, as there are so many stadia, fights almost every night, and the levels are along a spectrum. There are a number of Kathoey fighters active right now up in the North, sometimes coming down to fight in Bangkok, but with good recognition and presence in the stadia of Chiang Mai. You could also go specifically to train with Nong Toom at her gym in Bangkok. That will absolutely provide a supportive training environment and Parinya (Nong Toom) will have the kinds of connections you'd need to fight, but the opportunities would likely be less frequent than in Chiang Mai. I also am catching myself as I'm saying this, because even though there are tons of fights in Chiang Mai and they won't be making a big deal about your gender, there is never any guarantee that opponents will be available for anyone all the time; it will depend on size and skill matching.

It's awesome to hear you studying the fights of Chamuakpet. I haven't looked at them closely in a while so I couldn't say, but I like your idea that he's tracking the openside with his knee. Karuhat's switches seemed to be score relevant, closing the openside when he had the lead, etc.

Hey all! I am just reaching out because I recently booked my first trip to Thailand this fall. I plan on training and fighting for the few months that I am there. My girlfriend and I would love to capture our private sessions and fights in high quality and also share an interest in photography. We would like to bite the bullet and purchase a camera for the trip, just something capable of capturing high quality images and video. I understand the lighting isn’t the best at a lot of these events. Are there any lenses I should purchase along with the camera? We don’t want anything overly complicated and would love if it fell into our budget of $1000 or less. With so many different brands and models and having never purchased a camera before it is a bit overwhelming. I am new here so if this is not the correct place for this post please let me know. Any recommendations or advice is greatly appreciated!

Thank you kevin this was an excellent read. Adopting cultural norms alongside shaping one's style and muay makes thailand's martial arts scene so tangible and traceable to the living humans who practice and teach it. Goosebumps.

It is so refreshingly free of norms and so laden with them in some ways. I have fallen in love with my muay and see it as something I have a relationship with, a living expression of who I am, and shaping my muay has allowed me to 'celebrate' the parts of myself its expressing! Thank you for the response!

Depends on where you start, you don't want to get injured by adding too much, too soon. I switch between training/competing muay thai and lethwei. In lethwei they have some very intense leg training that helped me getting stronger legs (especially calves). At my current gym morning training starts with: 40min moderate pace jogging up and down a hill. Followed by either sprints (distance and repetition vary) or 3 rounds of frog jumps (bunny hops up the hill abt 100 rep each round) and a final round of uphill duck walks. Frog jumps can also be all kinds of directions (backwards, to the side etc). It always varies, but additional movements are added such as 3 rounds of 30 sec lunge jumping or bunny hop on top and in between and on top a tyre. 10 pike jumps are usually added too. Then kicks and knees in the air 3x30 sec. Or carrying or flipping a tyre up and down the hill. Usually it's about 1 hour of this stuff before we move into the gym doing bag work, pads and shadow. Afternoon usually begins with 4x5 min of tyre jumping (with and without light dumbells) each 30sec you go fast or pike jump on the tyre. Then there's usually some kind of plyometric leg movement added. Important to mention: there is a lot of focus on stretching and after the morning run each fighter stretches their legs and there's also a lot of assisted stretching. If i were you, I'd start with running and skipping then add some additional movements one by one if you feel it's needed. Tyre jumping is excellent for leg strength. But hard on your achilles tendons.

For convenience I also put together a spreadsheet of only Karuhat's video recorded fights. You can find that here, with hyperlinks: A Complete List of Karuhat's Video Recorded Fights Here are screencaps of that:

Almost any gym can get you a fight. The part you should consider for yourself is getting to a location where fights are plentiful, so your chances of finding an opponent and a program during your stay are highest. Chiang Mai and Phuket have the most frequent fight opportunities.

This is probably far afield, but reading your thoughts brought to mind this thread I did on how Thailand's rigors of training, the very shape of its hyper-masculine practice, support a kind of trans- experience for Westerners. Lots of sociology and theory in this thread, but who knows it might connect up with other thoughts:

One of the interesting things in Michael Chaney treatment is that he specifically would like to erase the highland/lowland distinction that a lot of historians focus on. This, for instance, in Thai-Siam studies can be quite emphasized. Part of this may be that highland cultures may have had more of a penchant for aggression or violence in combat - for instance headhunting seems to have persisted in the highland regions much longer than elsewhere in mainland Southeast Asia, and in Siam-Thai ideology these peoples have been positioned as "savage", opposed to the high culture of the Capital and its halo of authority out to the foothills of the North. I don't really know the distribution of ethnicity, but have you noticed an cultural connection between highland (or lowland) Burmese and present day Lethwei? That is a very nice data point. My own intuition is that I have doubts about Muay Boran (or Lethwei) directly coming from combat itself, at least large scale combat tracing back to the 17th century, for example. My main reason for this is that practically every piece of evidence I've seen is that this kind of combat is not weaponless at all. Everyone is armed with blades, spear/lance and/or shield. I'm sure every rice farmer was very adept at using a blade for work. If there WAS a direct development of a fighting art for or from military actions it most certainly would have been a weaponed fighting art, and the shield would probably be a significant aspect of that fighting. We can make conceptual connections to how Muay Thai, Muay Boran or (I guess) Lethwei may be related to weaponed fighting...but that fact that it isn't weaponed fighting seriously undermines some of that historical picture. I could though see subduing an opponent being part of much smaller scale raiding, which would be largely focused on slave capture. I think this makes perfect sense. I think trends in culture and expression really change and can change fast, in a decade or two, and not necessarily reach back centuries. A big part of the ideological picture Thailand presents about Muay Thai is that it is the reason the Thais were never in historical fact colonized (the story that is told). Instead it is presented that a series of Kings through strategy were able to find ways to absorb Western influence & control, and retain a sense of ideological identity. [sorry, I wrote all this before I saw that you brought it up! But I'll leave it in nonetheless] In the Thai telling they "won" because they were smart and pliant before a formidable force, something they navigated with great sagacity. You can see how the two mythologies diverge (not making judgements on either). The brief (allied) Japanese occupation left a mark on Thailand, but largely there has been seldom a sense that a foreign invader had to be fought off (since the Burmese defeat of Ayutthaya, with possible exceptions of some of the 19th century slave capture revolts in the Northeast, and the fight against Communism in the 1960s-1970s, and today's insurgence in the South). Largely, Thailand has painted itself as "whole". Maybe this makes a big difference in terms of what fighting means to a culture. Much further up in the thread this is discussed in broad SEA historical view by Anthony Reid. He suggests that even the way in which SEAians thought about property, identity, wealth, was shaped by the transience of wooden houses. This flows into the idea of the perpetual possibility of retreat. Houses were not valuable. The land in a certain sense is not valuable (because fertile land is not scare, as say it is in Europe). Speaking very broadly, invaders or raiders would come, villagers would run to the forest and take all their valuables with them (wealth had to be transportable), and the village would be burned. He presents this as nearly a pan SEA pattern lasting centuries. When the Dutch came and established trading posts in, I think Jakarta?, they were forbidden from building anything with stone. Everything had to be made from wood, with the exception of the palace (and perhaps wats). In the sense or warfare and conflict, if Anthony Reid is right, then raid (and maybe burning) were a regular part of the life cycle, as was fleeing to the forest or mountains, and relocating one's village. The main point was not to be captured, and to escape with one's relative wealth (rice, valuables). Personally, I see in this transience of the abode something even of the foundations of the Buddhist conceptions of the transience of the Self. As the palace and the wat were made of stone, you have the contrastive permanence of spiritual and political authority. This is quite different than in the West where one's home/land helps constitute one's more individual identity much more. The "castle" of the Self, to which Western religions are more focused on. In any case, an interesting speculation.

As an older guy coming back to Muay Thai after Western boxing, I can sympathise. There's lots of good stuff on Youtube, I'll post a couple of my favourites below. Would be great if anyone else has some tips... This is a really good one: These guys are interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bg5ltVL3fok&t=14s&ab_channel=StrengthSide

Recent review of Kem's Muay Thai Gym in Khao Yai Tiang: "The training is mind blowing. All three Krus are different but they’re not jusy chasing your endorphin high for you by letting you smash pads and feel the rush. There is so much technique work. I haven’t spent much time in classes in other gyms just mainly one on Ones as I’ve torn my ACL and didn’t fancy big classes injured but we are just a handful here so I know if he’s not training me Kem is watching me all the time. And so hands on in terms of the accommodation and other care eg he’s driving a student to Cambodia today for a visa run. Such lovely people. I’m humbled. And I can hear the call to prayer which is important to me. Thanks again for the recco." Naadia

I love this about Muay Thai in Thailand - like fighting fish. Float, float, float, explosion of movement and then float, float float. So beautiful. My first ever teacher, who is Thai, wanted me to be very agile and hop around a lot, mostly because I'm small but also some older styles sometimes have more movement like this (SOME); but I really love this stand-in-your-space aesthetic. It's the baddest-ass pissing contest in the world!