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Oh nice to hear hope that's more representative :). About secrets not shared was told to me by a male fighter friend who explained certain clinch moves to me. He sort of expressed that actually he's not supposed to tell me all this, I'm supposed to figure out by myself. In the context of not being good sportsmanship. And this why even his western fighter friends wouldn't share (you learn the hard way sort of thing). Which led me to realise I've done so much thinking abt how it is for women in gym and sort of assumed all boys have this lovely bromance oiling each other up and all that, even though I've seen what's happening in sparring, I havent really contemplated too much about their internal politics.

Thank you! I've met most very lovely women (actually my favorite had just been training with Sylvie for a week and I can tell why Sylvie liked her) and then those who sort of directly want to dominate or compete with me or simply ignoring me only want to spar with the guys. It's annoying but also interesting to see what strategies are applied (Haha yes Realpolitik indeed).

Uuuh that sounds hectic. I feel that level of respect for each other has to go up in parallel to the hardness of sparring otherwise it gets so ugly and emotional affecting everyone.

Thanks.. It's just the way I am. I really don't see anything special in it. I'd rather be in control of what I do than let any,"Maybe it might happen", control me. That isn't to say, I do things Willy Nilly. My left leg is compromised, I still teep and check well with it, but body kicks are a definite no no. Sometimes even low kicks. I think this has lot to do with the hip rotation at impact. But then simple things, if I don't do them correctly can lay me up for a good stretch. It's funny but embarrassing, I got stuck on the toilet once because I turned to use the toilet paper instead of what I usually do and take the roll off the holder. . There's nothing wrong with competitiveness and the simmering down with age is a good. As we get older we get wiser, or so my grandma used to say. We just gotta train in a way that suits. Sometimes that more easily said than done, depending on one's nature. Me, I tend to obsess and this leads to mistakes, leads to injury which can lead to down time. I don't do down time real well.

My SO has said similar things. There was a lady she used to train with, who would come in with her teenage daughter weekly. The Mum and Daughter didn't always get on and would end up kinda fighting in sparring class. She said that both of them had an attitude problem and after that would be trying to fight EVERYONE in the class in sparring. You get rough sparring sessions all the time, but with those two in particular it was toxic - which was a real shame because this was in a woman's only class where there are people who are specifically there to avoid that sort of pigheadedness.

Bone density matters, and in terms of generating power it matters more than pounds of muscle, keep in mind that bone density disparity between men of different sizes isn't as big as you'd think for. Manny Pacquaio's got wrists the same size as Mike Tyson - it's all Tyson's muscle that makes him huge - not that he's inherently much more massive (he's a few inches taller, but less dense), and when it comes to generating force the size and density of your bones absolutely matters, it's why Pacquaio is still able to KO people 7 divisions higher than his original weight class, if he weren't going against a massive reach disadvantage he'd probably have the power to KO middleweights. I definitely agree though that Muay Thai is a sport where weight disparities don't matter, unless you are a 125er going against a 160lb guy then you're likely to have a hard time regardless. I think that's because Muay Thai, while no doubt a hard hitting sport, is a marathon, rather than a spring, with less emphasis on punches to the head and more on kicking the body. I think that approach to scoring makes it safer to be a smaller man, like Saenchai for example. His timing is so good that being at a kicking range doesn't hugely matter because he can get out of the way, stay on the end of his opponents kicks and fire back when the kick misses, but if you put Saenchai in a K1 match which favours aggression, a fast pace and more blows to the head and legs, and then he's fighting at that size disadvantage that he's usually comfortable with in Muay Thai, he's going to get mowed over. He wouldn't be dominating a Masato in the same way he can a 150lb thai boxer. There is certainly something about the rules and scoring culture of Muay Thai, that allows for those physical inequalities to be nullified somewhat in a way that doesn't exist in boxing, kickboxing or MMA.

I know you are responding to Kevin but I would add that as a student I’m super happy sparring with people bigger & heavier than me; My favorite person is 6’4” about 260. He’s a pro and he schools me but it’s just, for me, delightful seeing the many ways he gets ahead of me. I also trust him, not just because of skill but because I know 99% of the time he has to really cut down in his power to get any work (holding pads for him is like a metal concert, tooth-rattling; I love it).

Right? Honestly, size difference is a real thing but it can be overcome. But it is funny when "they" say its no big deal but then go on to allow other similar limiters as serious problems. Many times I think the reason some of these limiters work is because people dont account for them in training. Ive been to many gyms that during sparring only have people of the same weight class match up. Coming from a traditional background, we never trained within weight classes, we just matched up with whoever, so we got to experience when techniques needed to be altered to account for your opponents size. A lot of techniques work on the surface, all things being equal, but fall short when used against a bigger opponent. Few then explore why. One of the things Ive always loved about the women that trained in the gyms I was at was their willingness and complete acceptance of training with consistently bigger/stronger partners. Funny thing is, it always made them better. Not just in general but specifically when they ended up with someone their own size and strength. It was kind of like weight training in that they adapted to the bigger/stronger and became something stronger themselves. I point out the women specifically because of the topic but also because there was never a complaint about it, it just was the way it was.

...and in terms of difference between men and women from a student perspective I feel the biggest difference is how women and men are treated not the way they act. I might be wrong, but there are all these kind of student types and in my experience both women and men display these types. The hardest sparring I always get from women (or uncontrolled newbie guys) probably as a consequence from women sparring mainly (bigger) men and used to go hard. I've been told though by western guys, they feel women have it easier in Thailand because we get taught more tricks (perhaps because of flirting or we're not seen as threats) whereas guys are supposed to figure themselves out on their own. Even among western fighter guy friends secrets are not shared. Which was a surprise to me and threw me out off this "it's so unfair because I'm a woman"-loop a bit (although it definitely still sucks being read as a woman in many ways).

Thank you for this beautiful story, Pat. Quite a magnificent relative (so handsome too). Look forward to seeing what else you find out.

Only time this comes up is when you get a guy who's probably printing his own credit cards or some kinda scam back home. Got an apartment with 2 phone receivers on the floor duct-taped together upside down. Then comes to Bangkok and wants to be king of the white people. Actually, the not talking about techniques etc? Another thing that never occurred, because all the other foreigners didn't speak English. So we had google translate friendships mainly.

Living with the same one gym over there pretty long term, this doesn't seem familiar. Apart from maybe like, 1 douchebag the entire time who was gone in a week, all the other foreign dudes were cool as fuck and hardworking and got friendly. All the politics and bullshit happened back home, and it was the best thing ever to leave all that behind.

This is super NOT off topic. It’s definitely a social condition of gym life. I’ve been lucky to meet a free great, generous & skilled women, and I’ve met two who had it out for any women perceived to take coach attention from them. Sometimes it’s sexual, sometimes it’s Daddy issues (both?). But either way like you & Sylvie pointed out, it’s a side effect of scarcity. I like your Realpolitik attitude (“more power to the sexy girl garnering attention, or the rough girl destroying shins).

Thank you!!

Should you ever find yourself in London, you'd be more than welcome to come over and train. I think that regardless of athleticism or male or female egos that affect how someone trains and fights, fighting is a human thing. We all do it - so it doesn't come as a surprise to me that men and women are just as scrappy

Oh that's interesting. I always love being underestimated ("not seen as threat") cause it gets you in the door so many places in life, insulting as it can be. I wonder if the lack of sharing and competitiveness for Western men in Thailand is because of being a threat, or general non-compliant or unknowingly disrespectful behavior. Anyway huge cheers to the advantages of going in slick (poor little female), getting the tricks!

Andy this is gold. So interesting about the wide stance for men, and I know the "cat paw" well lol. Funny that it is universal. I appreciate you getting so concrete about how men and women actually work in a gym. Your gym sounds like a great place and I like what you say about the actual "fight in them". That must be something you can only see under duress, and its beautiful that it has NOTHING to do with gender. Love it.

I am speaking purely from my anecdotal evidence of training and training with men and women. One of my students is a friend of mine, who is a FTM transman who is currently in his first steps of hormone therapy (but he's at the very beginning of his training, so I haven't much to say), I've coached several men and several women. I also say this with the preface that I am not a veteran coach or fighter. Talking athletically there's not much I can say that any other person won't say - but in terms of actually coaching and interacting, here are my observations: I tend to find that women are more comfortable kicking to the body and head straight out of the gate regardless of experience. I think that is because of the popularity of dancing, which is so popular among little girls here - I do not tend to find that flexibility ever leaves you. I've always found men have more speed and power but also more ego. Ego's not a bad thing either, and I should stress that nearly every man I've trained has been a lovely well adjusted person, but I've found men are more likely to argue with what I'm teaching them, and men are more likely to get frustrated with themselves if they make a mistake or are unable to complete exercises. I've never had a woman argue with me about whether or not a technique is right or wrong and while I'm sure women will be frustrated by the training or by me, I've not known them to outwardly show it. I also find that women tend to be shy and it usually takes a while to build up their confidence on the pads as they're getting to know you. Men just start smashing the pads as hard as they can regardless of form. I usually have to tell guys to calm down, and tell girls to hit harder. With beginners I particularly notice that men are more likely to stand quite wide, and swing from far away as though they're imitating a boxer. Women I find often do what I call a 'cat paw' where they hit with their hand coming palm first from their stance. I do not know why this is. Obviously this isn't the be all and end all, everybody is different but these are the observations I've had. The women I've trained, trained for fitness and to learn a martial art and self defence for fun - and when you ask them if they want to fight the answer you get will really vary. Every guy I've ever coached (many of whom are teenager) wants to fight but those that actually DO fight are few. At my gym the fight team coach is a woman (I don't want to name drop her here for privacy reasons, but she is well known for defeating Julie Kitchen + Joanna Jedrzejczyk) - and many of our more notable fighters have been women (Claire Haigh, Geraldine O'Callaghan, Chalih Bassanah etc.) most of whom were there before I joined, and also tough as nails. The main thing between men and women that I think is the same is the actual fight in them - and I don't mean wanting to compete, but when they're training to push through and in competition their grit when it comes to throw down. I've seen men and women give up, and I've seen men and women giving it their absolute all. That's is what is in my view most important!

Apologies this might be slightly off topic. Not a coach, but a woman in a male space, and I reacted to this by Sylvie: and disgusted with myself for having an automatic sense of competitiveness. Not competitiveness in the sporting sense, like how men might get to enjoy having a spar to see who's slicker, but competitiveness in the "there are limited social resources here and I now have to protect my hard-earned position" kind of competitiveness.Which is shit. Which is why you get women throwing each other under the bus to be teacher's-pet, or creating cliques when there are only 3 of us, or not being supportive despite there only being fucking 2 of us. I completely understand where this is coming from, usually spots for women are limited and we all have to compete for that one spot above the glass ceiling. But I also find it unfair. I'm sorry to say, but not all women in a muay thai gyms are cool. There are various types, the hard worker, the one who flirts to get some teaching from the male trainer (no judgement it's an effective strategy), the super hard tough girl who talks to no one and will kick the shit out of your shins (understanding her too) or the "know it all" etc etc. The point is, usually guys have the luxury of having ten other guys as training partners to relate to and train with. Finding their favorite or the asshole they cannot stand. But as a woman you're expected to instantly connect with that other woman who shows up and if she's not cool, you're not being a good "sister". And that sucks. And it's simply the result from having too few other women to train with. And to me that's the most limiting factor being a woman training muay thai. The longing for a female partner to compete with and learn from and then handling the disappointment when she turns out to be not so cool. And that whole pressure of having to get along with a fellow muay ying and to not appear like that woman who likes to be the only woman in a male space.

Agreed. Always found the most beneficial training partners were guys bigger than me, one by 20kilos. It meant you couldn't get away with bullshit. All the tiny details & phases within one thing you wanna do have to be on point, for the whole thing to work.

Yes the size issue really plays into it. I love getting partnered with people my size although in the end my favorite training partner is 11 inches shorter than me, 30 lbs lighter. She may not like dealing with me but she's the best (Michelle Duff). Thanks again for your thoughts.

Again, hard to pay attention to it when really tired and doing something difficult, but one noticeable thing from those days was the weight issue. Say a real tall girl with the build of a South American tennis player needs a partner, she tends to prefer (and prob improve more) partnering with the guy who's like 72 or 76kg. If there's another girl there who is way way lighter, the trainer partners them up together, and some of them don't like that.

hahahahahah I accept that there is difference of course. I just don't focus on it, and try and screw them (bio arguments) up every chance I get cause they irritate me Oliver. I believe this. Its too funny. One has to ask, 'what is a girl', in that case, if a girl is rejecting too many "girls". Is it the less serious people? Or just the loss of the higher level of power/technique/aggressiveness? Some of us prefer to be around men cause its less complicated. No generalization is really possible. Thanks for your experience! Sometimes I wish I could, like you, just not think about it. But it's my life's work as a visual artist so I try to stay loose but remain conscious.

Very tough to know. Don't really like thinking too much when going to training or reading books etc. Only time seeing it from the other side is in yoga class, only time enough to do once a week and not because it's fun. Highly unpleasant but find it necessary. Have bad flexibility and bad overall body strength, and never found any kind of weight training helps. This does. People might not like biological arguments but in that room there's no escaping it, the advantage everybody else has in terms of natural hip and leg flexibility.... I mean it's clear as day. If you're a dude, it's basically you and an old guy recovering from an operation, and that's it. First day is like, damn... gonna be humiliating...gonna be treated like we shouldn't be here....look all clunky and rigid. So we just hide in the back and try keep up. The truth? Absolutely nobody cares, or even notices us. Over time, just realised it's better not to think about it. You get treated well, given the easier guy-friendly variations of the asanas by the teacher, and have no complaints, and soon forget you're the only 2 guys there. Unless we're told to feel the universe and breath into our bra straps. Totally different from the Thai gyms back home when starting out. Not only did the overall membership have more girls but half the fight team were girls. And the 2 most experienced girls used to chat about the gym going downhill, saying "Because now the gym has too many girls". For real, that's a quote. O

Jeremy. The dread of paralysis, yet you train. Absolutely inspirational, as is training when you know you are not the same athlete as before. I experience this daily as a person who is no longer young, but was once an absolute grinder, more than anyone around me. Much less difficult (aging is after all a privilege since the alternative is death). But my competitiveness blurgh.. it requires constant simmering down. Thanks for your example.

Sylvie thanks. I know you have so much writing in the subject and this is a very general question. One of the reasons I follow you and your fight career is your hyper-consciousness of yourself as a Western female in the Thai context. You are a voyager not only across cultural lines, but also really across gender lines and i just love how you open up the path for those following you, and credit those before you. So I feel silly asking you the general question but I appreciate your thoughts. Your comparison evokes what I believe - there is a sameness (in motivation), inflected by profound social difference (numbers of fighters and response to ego challenges). Very succinct and confirms what I observe in a broader general sense. Having had kids now, everyone expects me to finally sign on the biological gender differences and fine yeah, there are differences. But I hate biological arguments - they often break down (compare the level of testosterone in any elite female athlete's body with an ordinary woman's levels and you have what, a more male person? I don't accept this silly line of reasoning where a single hormone defines a gender). Attitude and durability (where the women, in your observation, continue working whereas the males often disappear under durress) are all. So I always appreciate, deeply, your conscious voyage. to you for it, all day long.

It's a cop out response on the light vs hard thing, but getting both is beneficial. Like a musician's work time in between playing live shows, the practising vs playing issue. They're not the same thing. The Western dudes mentioned above who just want to brutalise each other in the gym for their facebook but not have fights, it's kinda like a music student who only wants to play through songs at home start to finish, or keep going over stuff that's already familiar. Without actually taking apart the song structure and it's harmony, so he knows that it works without knowing why it works. A player worth his salt will do way way more of what the other guy thinks is boring - basically sit there with a metronome for hours, slow the whole thing down, drill, try new stuff, experiment with new phrasing recently learned etc. Sounds like tedious baby steps, but the legit players still do this light sparring way even with 15 years behind them. The musical 'hard sparring' is getting together with other players afterwards for rehearsal and then playing through the songs on the set list before the show. And playing with others, especially live, leads to stronger improvement than anything. But...you kinda need the first way, the practice thing, in order to do the second thing effectively, the playing/rehearsing. If you really wanna be tight and clean. Best training so far, hands down, was light sparring in the morning session with a teenager with the eyes of an old man - and like, no shin guards and no timed rounds, just continuous. Then in the afternoon, the hard sparring with shin guards, 16s, rounds, and we each had a corner etc. Awesomeness. O

Well, I would be careful about wanting the "thai experience", for that is exactly what I sought and that disappointed me about training in Thailand. Unless you speak Thai fluently, and you are only and exclusively into fighting, you won't enjoy being surrounded by Thais only in some camp in the outskirts of Bangkok. I went to train at Sitsongpeenong (Bangkok) for a few weeks, thinking that its isolated location, its huge stable of Thai fighters, the lack of any distractions around the facility, would lead to the ultimate Muay Thai experience. It turned out, however, that mine was a foolish way of reasoning: the eastern outskirts of Bangkok became rapidly boring after a few days, the Thai fighters wouldn't really speak to me or any of the other students, while the trainers barely spoke a few words of English; it was impossible to socialize, and that, added to the fact that there was nothing in terms of distractions outside the training hours, quickly made my stay very different from what I expected. I learnt that distraction from training, as long as it is not intended as drinking and partying, is equally as important as training itself. For what concerns Yokkao I can strongly recommend it. Not only is the gym located in the heart of Bangkok, in a beautiful area in which you won't feel isolated, but the training and the vibe around it are great. The vibe, in particular, is what struck me most pleasantly: there is a sense of joy during training; everybody laughs, smiles, has a good time; you see Manachai smashing pads, Singdam coming back from his daily run, and Saenchai arriving at the gym looking for the first victim to prank. The quality of training is high, the level depending on your skill: I have seen lazy tourists doing the minimum required and professional fighters being pushed to their limit; you will have to show interest and motivation, for you will only get what you are willing to give. But no matter what, Yokkao has nothing deserving criticism. I had a private session with a trainer named Sak, and found him a great coach, highly experienced, patient and motivated. Please consider training with him if you are at Yokkao. For what concerns privates with Saenchai, I recommend you to book them in advance and be ready to pay 200$ per hour. Saenchai is not only the legend of this gym, but also the head of it: it was my impression that the type of Muay Thai taught at Yokkao resembled very much Saenchai's style on the ring: clever, elusive, fun. That would be it about Yokkao, but there is another gym I want to recommend to you, though it is located in Ao Nang, in the South of Thailand. It's called Khunsuek, it opened only recently and is a state-of-the-art facility. It certainly caters towards westerners but there is a trainer here, named Peteak Sor Suwanpakdee, who is by far the best coach I have ever had, who will tear your technique apart, and push you hard; one class with him is worth the entire trip to Ao Nang. Hoping it helps, I wish you a good trip.

Yes, just book a room nearby so that you can get to the gym for a day of training to see how you like it, then decide whether you want to stay. For Banchamek, if you go there, just book one day and night at a time or whatever and decide whether to book a few weeks after that. If you expect to be training WITH Buakaw and Yodsanklai, you will be disappointed. If you're lucky you'll see them walking around, but they're not at these gyms all the time. Yodwicha is at Buakaw's gym now and if he has a fight coming up might be training, but fighters like these aren't training all the time (or even often). You're more likely to see Yodsanklai at Terminal 21 mall across the street from Fairtex than you are in the actual gym... my husband and I see him there when we are eating dinner, hahaha. This is not to dishearten you, you can train anywhere you want. But be realistic about your expectations and be flexible in your plans so that you don't get stuck. If you land, check out the gym and like it, then that's awesome and you will be happy where you are.

Dunno...in some ways I think the biggest challenge is the other way - when boxing to remember that you can't kick your opponent... :teehee: