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Kali (Pekiti Tirsia to be more specific) is the only other martial art I have practiced for a significant time (about 8 years or so). It's a Filipino art that is not very "sportified" and is based on the use of blades and impact weapons (empty hands training is done, too though but its based on the same patterns and concepts as the blades). I found it really interesting how similarities between different arts pop up, especially with the more traditional styles. There is so much that sounded very much familiar to me in the Muay Lertrit sessions. Things that are either very much the same as I learned in Kali or at least follow the same principle. There is this thing about "let them try to strike you but make them pay every time" that we also did a lot. Directly counterattacking instead of blocking is a central concept there. Stuff like parrying a punch with a move that, if done well, is supposed to strike the opponent in the same move as it parries their punch. Or making someone who uses a leg kick on you pay by not only blocking with your own shin but dropping your knee on their ankle while doing so, very similarly to what the general demonstrates in that one session. Also I've watched the session with Gen Hongthonglek a few times and only the last time it suddenly occurred to me that the way he uses fakes, delayed timing and counters is actually very similar to how I used to do sparring with the stick in Kali when I was more experienced. I'd typically move back to keep range (I'm a very tall guy with long arms) and would constantly weave my stick in front of me or throw my opponent off with some weird position kind of like Gen does with his feet before he lands his big kicks. This kinda stuff is really fascinating to me. Sure there are differences between arts but often there are also overlaps or concepts that can be applied to other arts as well. Did you have similar experiences? PS: Of course there are differences, too: For example Kali teaches you to give not getting hit (at all if possible) top priority because an opponent could always carry a weapon even if you don't see it right away so every hit might be very dangerous. Thats something I have to practice to overcome a bit in Muay Thai where the opponent is guaranteed to not have a weapon and getting hit is not actually a mistake in principle.

I love sparring with my coach the best, and consider it an honor. There is an eerie feeling of course when someone is so far ahead of you (I am a basic student and Muay Thai nerd). But that eerie feeling is magic. I just love that there are levels, forever.

Dont know if I can really say I have a favourite technique so far. I'm just a beginner and haven't even trained very consistently because other stuff had to be done. Trying to get back into it now. I might say kicks. I'm not very good at them yet, one thing that limits me with regards to kicks is my lack of flexibility, but it just feels good to me and I've also been told I have a heavy kick (well, I'm a heavy guy though ). I'm still working on more flexibility, quicker, more secure execution and also making them less prone to being caught by my opponent. If we're talking go-to techniques in sparring, so far thats teeps, lowkicks and I have taken a liking to Sagat-style uppercuts even though I'm no pro at punching at all. Also I keep seeing openings for elbows so that could be called a favourite, too. It helps that elbows are among the techniques I already know from training Kali for several years. Unfortunately most training here in Germany is more geared towards K1 than actual Muay Thai.

So a little bit of background - most UK in the Muay Thai is informed by the few influential coaches who trained out in Thailand and brought Muay Thai back with them (usually after fighting them in kickboxing) and Master Sken, who like Master Toddy was a TKD guy who sort of knew muay thai a little bit then packaged it as Thaikwondo and begun to teach it in the UK some 40 years ago. I was taught by Thoethai Srikrotriam - a Thai stadium fighter from the 70s/80s and he taught me via watching me train and occasionally correcting things he didn't like until I got to where I am today. The way we are usually shown to kick by the English coaches (several of whom have been taught by my teacher) is very similar to how it's taught in this video. To my eyes that looks pretty much the same as the Golden Kick, but not quite as slick as the sort you'd see from Karuhat, Sagat etc. Wondered if anyone else would like to have a look and see how it measures up to what they understand of the golden age kick!

The role of the rich in the arts in general! In the context of History, I’m learning that with wealth comes the birth of the opinionated man. Preferences and taste are socialized by the richness of exposure and education. This is a fascinating topic because art is one of the intersection points of the rich and the poor. (I’m thinking of the rich art collector and the “poor artist” cultural motifs). Also, art has the potential to be an equalizer of class, like death, because of the arguably more inherent nature of human creativity. As for martial arts, I see money all over the gym and fight scene both locally and internationally (travel, equipment, nutrition science, etc). But, I would like to see...how much of its survival is fueled by human fight philosophy or technology, than pure monied privilege?

Kind of a side subject but I think relevant is the connection you mentioned in another post about the wealthy and specifically karate. That had to have had an influence in the spread of kickboxing after its development. If anyone can go so far as to develop a while new style to avoid losing to another style it would be people with money and influence. Just thinking out loud.

In fact there was a counter point to the wealthy/Gracies and the people who couldnt afford to train with them that still found ways to learn, the vale tudo crowd and the lutas. Better people than me can really explain it, but essentially it created a "gang" like atmosphere with the wealthy being one faction and the poor being another championed by these two groups. Towards the forum topic though, it was the Gracies ability to move to another country and blow up their family's name and sport that led to where we are no with the art.

Excellent point. The thing I notice about fighters that have really great defense but stay with it too long is either it eventually fails and they get tagged or the fight drags on because the person is too focused on defense and has no offense to speak of. That would be catastrophic in a battlefield or street situation where new opponents and weapons come in to play. So many traditional styles I think suffered from a lack of defense when they got challenged by sport fighting, and I think it was because of this. They are so focused on offense as defense and doing it immediately that they had no sense of defensive timing, things that give you time to size up your opponent and find the holes in their game, something youd never want to do in the battlefield or street. One self defense instructor I love teaches a style that works in all situations amd youll see a cross over to clinching too: Tony Blauer and his spear system (basically a defense that doubles as an entry to a clinch style close fighting system that doesnt give the opponent much time to do anything). If ypu watch some of his stuff youll see cross over mainly because he uses what works from other styles and combines them in a way he feels works best together. It becomes an unweaving and reweaving of styles which I believe is where evolution happens.

You see this in Muay Boran styles like Muay Chaiya, at least as it is taught in Bangkok by Kru Lek. You get a real sense of "defense first", but defense itself has an offensive structure, or the difference between offense and defense is really blurred. This always struck me as the sign of a style's proximity to actual warfare. The very first rule of warfare fighting would be "Do not get killed", and then "Do not become disabled". When you see styles that are founded on rock solid defense (and in my book "evasion" is not rock solid because you can evade, evade, evade, and once you fail, you are dead - or, when a second attacker arrived) it just feels like it's the warfare logic. Those Chaiya, Lertrit styles, where defense becomes wounding, and you are always only a move or two from finishing the fight. That feels very realistic to battlefield demands.

I believe one thing we lose sight of is, all martial arts were borne of the need for either war or self defense, so it kind of makes sense that similarities in concepts and physical applications would be apparent across the spectrum of styles.

Thanks for the reply, i thought i'd love to fight in the end just because i thought it would take loads of prep, but if you say i could fight 3x in that period, i'd def do that. I'd love to fight even more, but i doubted i have enough experience in sparr's and skill to go along with that. I don't really think i'm a good fighter or whatever, but i know i'm brave. I started k1 in my country and i trained for 2 weeks, i went into the ring and fought a guy who had 6years of experience. Even tho i lost i was happy because for me it was learning experience, 1st time ever geting into the ring, and consdering he was training for 6years and i was only there for 2weeks , i didn't give the victory away for nothing, he had nice amount of souvenirs on hi's face. I really noticed the skill diference tho, he cornered like a pro and i was 2 tense. What place would you recommend for me to start training Muay Thai? I was thinking Phuket Top Team, but if Chang Mai is a better place for a beginner to learn and have some fight's, i would be down!

I think you hit the nail on the head with this. Well said.

There is so much good in your comment Patrick, but this really stands out as worthy of discussion. There is a strong sense - from afar - that the USMF and related activities have been inspired by the path that TKD has taken to become a world wide sport. Some of this may have simply been that some passionate about Muay Thai are passionate because of their experiences with TKD in America as a youth. I believe I've read some talk about this connection explicitly. There seems to be the hope to create something like what happened with TKD, but without all the huge organizational and political problems. Basically: Let's do what TKD did, without fucking up so royally. And that includes Olympic inclusion. But you are right, Olympic inclusion does not automatically create robust growth, at least along the lines of the data I'm looking at. Here is TKD since 2004, World Wide search data, compared to Muay Thai: You can see the huge spikes during the Olympics (blue), but that the decrease is basically not interrupted. Now, the big question is: What is this decline and what impact did the Olympics have on it? Has corruption and inefficiency at the organizational level just lacked any way of building off the wave of interest during those Olympic peaks? And, what didn't help was that the 2008 Beijing Olympics were marred by the accusation of TKD match fixing, adding to the already problematic image of TKD as "not real fighting". I personally suspect that this "not real fighting" brand is perhaps the largest factor in TKD decline, because combat sports the world over have grown pretty much with branding in the opposite direction. TKD has a limited brand reach that goes against existing trends, it's going to experience value loss. Olympic inclusion kind of complicates that picture, promoting it but also confirming a difficulty. In the US it's a slightly different picture than the one above: Same Olympic bumps, but I don't know if it is concidental, but in 2004 and 2008 Muay Thai seemed to get a bump during Olympics as well, suggesting a possible wave to tap into. I think it would be crazy to think that Olympic inclusion would not create a surge in class sign-ups in Muay Thai. There would be. The huge question would be whether there is enough infrastructure in place to absorb it, and be fueled by that surge. That is what the (perhaps) deeper value of what you are doing, it's putting in place the structures and relationships that they could absorb the influxes that will happen with Olympic inclusion. There is of course another component of Olympic inclusion, which must be thought about under TKD, which is that Olympic inclusion provides a tremendous influx of money into the sport. The stories of corruption at the organizational level are well publicized. You don't get sweeping corruption charges without sweeping money. What it seems is that the influx of attention and money into the sport simply was not transferred to broad scale growth in terms of world attention. But kids all over the United States, for instance, found themselves in TKD classes. All that energy was absorbed, but not translated into productivity. These are the things that concern me when thinking about the TKD model. The truth is that I don't know enough about the Taekwando development history. It feels like a really important thing to understand. Because I care about Muay Thai I think this is something I'll be starting to read up on, I've already got a book downloaded on Kindle!

Personally I started training Muay Thai at 35 (I'm 36 now) and very out of shape. Used to practice Fillippino Pekiti Tirsia Kali for some 8 years before but that was years ago, too. Had to take a bit of a break from seriously training for a while because we moved and whatnot but I will get back into it soon. Don't know yet if I want to actually fight or if sparring is enough for me but I don't really feel like my age would not permit that. When I started I was like: "I'm 35 now and look, Saenchai is 38 so I still have time" :P

This sounds very much like what Rambaa worked with me on at the end of our Patreon session (up now). It's basically a long guard (the arm doesn't cross over, so not Dracula) and the Spike Guard (as I call it, where you block with your elbow). Two ranges, but you block EVERYTHING with just that. Your selections and practice sounds really good, especially with counters and lower body attacks within it.

I'm also a beginner with no fight experience but your question is important for me as well as a lot of the people I did sparring with so far were quite punch-focused (and I am not). 2 Things that seem to put a break on a punchers advance (at least on those that are not leaps and bounds ahead of my skill anyways of course) for me are: 1. Long guard and keeping a hand towards their face to interfere, disrupt, annoy. The better one's tend to get around it sooner or later but I guess with more experience it can at least help. I am quite tall though so if you are a smaller build this might not work as well for you. 2. Quick inside leg kicks as they step forward to punch. This proved quite effective as far as my skills will allow. It unbalances them and makes them more vary to step in again. Also the pain starts racking up over time if you can sneak it in more often. Good footwork can of course only make it better. I've also seen this approach used to sweep people clean off their feet as they try to advance with punches (look at Karuhat for a technically godlike example) Teeps seem to work, too but I'm not yet good enough with them to stay out of trouble while using them. Need to improve my timing and power I guess.

This is the guard referred to! https://youtu.be/EwdcTseZFl8

I’m a beginner/intermediate level with no fight experience, but for me in sparring I use a tight “samson issan” guard with forearm infront. After a couple of punches, i get a rough feel of the punching power/rhythm and try to break the opponents rhythm by pulsing forward and push to create space. As the opponent tries to reset, teep/kick/knee or jab/knee combo. I also integrate long guard/ dracula guard to keep a constant range check and get myself composed again. Whether or not it is as applicable in a proper fight, not sure. I love watching and re-watching the muay thai library, it definitely helps me in trying out all sorts of answers to such questions!

For me it really depends on the my goal for the night. Wjat do I want out of this session? If its to minimize damage (say the person is a little outve control), id use a guard and footwork to clear space to keep the pressure off and look for openings to counter and shut the agression down. If my goal is to feel pressure and learn to deal with it, then I might shell up and accept their attack to feel it. I believe its important to counter asap regardless to keep from being run over. Most of the time my goal is to preemptively keep them from over whelming me with outside footwork at range. I usually keep moving so as to not make a tempting target and not let them get a bead on me. Their swings wiff air so I can counter.

A good thing to work on, stylistically, is that when punches start coming: throw a spear knee, or throw a mid-kick under them. Eventually building awareness of where the "open side" is (where the belly button is pointing toward. It's common to think about trying to counter and defend up top when attacked up top, but knees (or if you like longer distances, kicks) are very high scoring in Muay Thai, and are natural counters to punching combinations. Punches extend and open the body.

All of the above seems right. There's no single response that's "correct," it's about adapting. Everyone has patterns. Everyone. So if you put your guard up and wait out the first punch or two, you'll have an opening. If you lean back, make sure you then counter. Play with it.

You should go to the opposite side of the punch arm!