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Fighting Consistently and Possibly Taking On Bad Matchups


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Hi guys! Ammy fighter here. I am currently 3-1. I have been actively fighting for 2 years however I find myself becoming frustrated with my lack of fighting consistency. I have had opportunities come my way that would allow me to fight on a regular basis however my coach has disagreed with some of the match ups I have been offered. In one instance he said she was more active than I was, in another he claimed my opponent was tall (she is 6ft, I'm 5'5'') so he wasn't so sure. As an amature I want to get as much experience as possible. I know coaches are their to protect their athletes but in some cases I feel as if I am being held back. I grew up being an athlete so I am use to having a regular season and competing multiple times within a few months. I'm not sure if I am being short sighted in wanting to fight more or not. My last fight was March 20th and I am hoping to fight again by June. I want to get in at least 4-6 fights this year if possible, but at this pace I don't see that happening. Any tips or suggestions on how to not be discouraged when I am constantly training but not allowed to take fight opportunities? Or any advice on how to bring this up to my coach without sounding disrespectful? 

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This was a huge problem for Sylvie. She's a 100 lb fighter and years ago as an amateur there were maybe 5 people in the whole country she could even fight around her weight, even giving up weight some. Also, a big problem, is that coaches like to manage their fighters, a lot of it coming from the example of boxing (which often has a much larger, more organized fighting pool). Coaches definitely try to massage the matchups to help you improve. They want you to win, or at least have a really good chance of winning, to improve your confidence which is important. They also, for commercial and brand reasons want to have winning fighters. Winning fighters bring more clients. For us it was a big no-go. Every time a coach would try to slow Sylvie down, or manage her, we'd distance ourselves. There was no path to become the fighter she wanted to be following any of those "managed" routes. And it has led to a spectacular career of over 260 fights, the most in history. But...it has lead to enormous social costs, a constant shifting, and facing a lot of opponents with huge advantages on her, which also has lead to big breaks of confidence at times. This is all to say that you are describing a huge thing, especially in female Muay Thai, and that we took a very radical path in response to it, paid big consequences, and even to this day we are fighting this battle of control over opponents. Ten years in it still happens.

For us, fighting is precious. Even bad matchups. There is a cost, but it is worth it. There is nothing that can teach you more than a fight, and fighting a lot gives you perspective. But...the social web of support is super important to a fighter, and coaches can be very sensitive to this stuff. In this case all you can do is give a double message. "Coach, I really want to fight, I'll take a mismatch" AND "Coach I respect your opinion" and see how it shakes out.

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It's difficult because your coach, it appears, is the gatekeeper on whether or not you get to fight the fight that's offered. Having an honest conversation with him about your motives and goals, that you're willing to take losses and disadvantages in order to have the long-term benefits of experience is a good place to stand. From his perspective, he's trying to protect you, not put you in unfair situations, and also surely protect his own reputation. It's all in how you sell it, honestly. I lost a good amount when I first came to Thailand and was fighting far more experienced opponents with weight advantages, but I was known as the little farang who would fight everyone and fight often. That glow isn't universal, the praise isn't unanimous, and the better I got and the more my name became recognizable, the more complicated the "face" of my gym and those who were supposed to be "in charge of me" became. So, it's complicated. But if you feel like you can talk to your coach, there's nothing lost by an honest conversation about wanting to fight a lot at this point in your development.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 4/30/2021 at 10:10 PM, Dess said:

Hi guys! Ammy fighter here. I am currently 3-1. I have been actively fighting for 2 years however I find myself becoming frustrated with my lack of fighting consistency. I have had opportunities come my way that would allow me to fight on a regular basis however my coach has disagreed with some of the match ups I have been offered. In one instance he said she was more active than I was, in another he claimed my opponent was tall (she is 6ft, I'm 5'5'') so he wasn't so sure. As an amature I want to get as much experience as possible. I know coaches are their to protect their athletes but in some cases I feel as if I am being held back. I grew up being an athlete so I am use to having a regular season and competing multiple times within a few months. I'm not sure if I am being short sighted in wanting to fight more or not. My last fight was March 20th and I am hoping to fight again by June. I want to get in at least 4-6 fights this year if possible, but at this pace I don't see that happening. Any tips or suggestions on how to not be discouraged when I am constantly training but not allowed to take fight opportunities? Or any advice on how to bring this up to my coach without sounding disrespectful? 

An overprotective coach is a much lesser problem compared with a coach whom doesnt care, whom isnt YOUR ally....  I believe Sylvie has written about this aspect too.   So while you should abandon and flee such an non caring coach and gym,  I do hope its "just" to talk it through honestly and openly with this overprotective coach...   Hopefully you will get a new balance.  If not, you may think on changing gym - hopefully with this coach blessings and advice whom to choose instead.

 

This problem reminds me about another but similiar problem.  Its usually guys telling about sparring with females they dont know well.  Ie, they often do  avoid to sparr women, or take it supereasy on them.  They dont wish to hurt the girls, nor get negative reactions from the girls nor their pals.

There are several different aspects to see this.  Some are entirely legitimate!

As I see it, its because, in the clubs in west, its common many of the women training in Muay clubs, arent wanna be fighters, many are really into fitness. (Or beginners)

So they fitness fighters are often technically decently knowleable, and thus able to do some good sparring, but only as long as its friendly and easy on them...  But they dont wish to risk pains nor hurts...

So a female Muay, whom IS a wanna be fighter, and thus, doesnt mind some rough sparr - yes even WISHES hard tough sparring - must tell about this.  Or even herself challenge these guys or the more advanced female fighters present...

 

To be honest, its not only a guy - female thing, this being overprotective,  even if its the frequently described.   I have seen female fighters, whom by the same reasons avoid to sparr against other women:  the ouches and scared crys begins immediately the beating begins...

 

I think the long term solution is to have some system of labels; essentially:   Im a wanna be fighter; Im OK with serious sparring, even if it hurts some.  Or;  Im a fitness fighter.  Im able to do technically advanced sparring, but it must be on a light and friendly niveu. 

And perhaps equvalents for beginners.

 

The short term solution is, exactly as above, to try and talk with each other.  Talk by mouth, body language, behavior in the gym...

 

Good luck!    🙂

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    • Translation:  (Continued from the previous edition (page?) … However, before being matched against Phadejsuk in the Royal Boxing program for His Majesty [Rama IX], The two had faced each other once before [in 1979]. At that time, a foreign boxer had already been booked to face Narongnoi, and the fight would happen regardless of who wins the fight between Narongnoi and Phadejsuk. … That foreign boxer was Toshio Fujiwara, a Japanese boxer who became a Muay Thai champion, the first foreign champion. He took the title from Monsawan Lukchiangmai in Tokyo, then he came to Thailand to defend the title against Sripae Kiatsompop and lost in a way that many Thai viewers saw that he shouldn’t have lost(?). Fujiwara therefore tried to prove himself again with any famous Nak Muay available. Mr. Montree Mongkolsawat, a promoter at Rajadamnern Stadium, decided to have Narongnoi Kiatbandit defeat the reckless Fujiwara on February 6, the following month. It was good then that Narongnoi had lost to Phadejsuk as it made him closer in form to the Japanese boxer. If he had beaten Phadejsuk, it would have been a lopsided matchup. The news of the clash between Narongnoi and Toshio Fujiawara, the great Samurai from Japan had been spread heavily through the media without any embellishments. The fight was naturally popular as the hit/punch(?) of that spirited Samurai made the hearts of Thai people itch(?). Is the first foreign Champion as skilled as they say? It was still up to debate as Fujiwara had defeated “The Golden Leg” Pudpadnoi Worawut by points beautifully at Lumpinee Stadium in 1978, and before that, he had already defeated Prayut Sittibunlert and knocked out Sripae Kaitsompop in Japan, so he became a hero that Japanese people admired, receiving compliments from fans one after another(?). Thus the fight became more than just about skills. It was (advertised as?) a battle between nations by the organizing team, consisting of promoter Montree Mongkolsawat, Somchai Sriwattanachai representing the “Daily Times(?),” Mahapet of “Muay Thai” magazine, and Palad of “Boxing” magazine were also present, and they named the show in a very cool(?) way, “The Battle of the Fierce Samurai.” Even “The Smiling Tiger of Ayothaya” Narongnoi who was never afraid or shaken was affected by the advertising, confessing to the media that he felt a little scared, unlike usual when he faced other Thai boxers like himself. “Why are you scared?” “Maybe because the opponent is a foreigner. There’s news that he is very talented.”  “So you’re afraid that if you lose to him in our own home, it will give us a bad name and be very shameful for you.” “Yes! But my heart knows that I can’t lose because I am fighting in my own country. And in any case, he probably won’t/wouldn’t be better than our boxers. “But he has defeated many of our famous boxers such as Pudpadnoi-Prayut-Sripae. To tell the truth, he must be considered a top boxer in our country.” “Yes, I know” Narongnoi admitted, “but Pudpadnoi could not be considered to be in fresh form as he had been declining for many years and could only defeat Wangprai Rotchanasongkram the fight before(?). [Fujiwara] fought Prayut and Sripae in Japan. Once they stepped on stage there, they were already at a huge disadvantage. I trained especially well for this fight, so if I lose to Fujiwara, my name will be gone(?) as well.” “The Battle of the Fierce Samurai” was postponed from February 6 to February 12, but Thai boxing fans were still very excited about this matchup, wanting to see with their own eyes how good the spirited Japanese boxer was, and wanted to see Narongnoi declare the dignity(?) of Thai boxers decisively with a neck kick, or fold the Japanese fighter with a knee. Win in a way that will make Thai people feel satisfied.   [Photo description] Narongnoi Kiatbandit used his strength to attack Fujiwara, a fake Muay Thai fighter until Fujiwara lost on points.   Fujiwara flew to Bangkok 2-3 days before the fight. The organizers of the show had prepared an open workout for him at Rajadamnern Stadium for advertising purposes. Many press reporters and boxing fans crowded together to see Fujiwara. Their annoyance increased as all he did for three rounds was punch the air [shadowboxing], jump rope, and warm up with physical exercises. After finishing the first three rounds, he was asked to put on gloves and do two rounds of sparring with a person who was already dressed and waiting. However, Fujiwara’s doctor told him that it was unnecessary. This time he had come to defeat a Thai boxer, not to perform for the show. Photographers shook their heads and carried their empty cameras back to their printing houses, one after another. In addition to measuring the prestige of the two nations, the fight between Narongnoi and Fujiwara was also wagered on, with a budget of 1 million baht. Narongnoi was at 3-2 in odds, and someone had prepared money to bet on the Japanese underdog, almost a million baht. Only “Hia Lao” Klaew Thanikul, who had just entered the boxing world, would bet 500,000 baht alone, and the Japanese side would only bet a few hundred thousand. The only person who truly bet on Narongnoi’s side was Chu Chiap Te-Chabanjerd or Kwang Joker, the leader of the “Joker” group, supported by Sgt. Chai Phongsupa. The others could not bet because the Japanese side ran out of money to bet on. Narongnoi’s disadvantage would be that it would be the first time that he will fight at 134 lbs. However, he would have youth and strength on his side, as well as having trained Muay Thai in Thailand(?). Narongnoi was only 22 years old, while Fujiwara was already 33. His 33 years did not seem to be a concern in terms of strength as he had trained very well and never knew the word “exhaustion.” Fujiwara had an abundance of endurance, to the extent that the Japanese could trust him completely on this issue. Yes [krap], when the day came, Rajadamnern Stadium was packed with boxing fans of all ages. The entrance fee was set at 100-200 and 400 baht per person, and the total raised was over 900,000 baht, less than ten thousand baht short of reaching the million baht mark. This means that the number of viewers was more than double that of the special events (200-400 baht per person) nowadays. Even though it was more exciting than any other fight in the past, Narongnoi Kiatbandit, the 130 lbs champion, was able to completely extinguish Toshio Fujiwara by throwing his left leg to the ribs every now and then. This made “the Samurai” unable to turn the odds(?) in time because Narongnoi would always stifle him. Fujiwara could only rely on his physical fitness and endurance to stand and receive various strikes until his back and shoulders were red with kick marks. After 5 rounds, he lost by a landslide, with no chance to fight back at all. Most of the audience was pleased, but there were some who complained that Narongnoi should have won by knockout, which was not easy as Fujiwara had already established that he was the best in Tokyo. If it were any other Japanese boxer, it would be certain that he would not have survived. “Am BangOr” wrote in the “Circle of Thoughts" column(?) of the boxing newspaper at that time: “Then the truth came out to show that Toshio Fujiwara was not really that good at Muay Thai. He was beaten by Narongnoi Kiatbandit who only used his left leg. Fujiwara was frozen, bouncing back and forth with the force of his leg, and he lost by a landslide... The only thing worth admiring about this Sun Warrior is his endurance and excellent durability. For someone at the age of 33 like him to be able to stand and take Narongnoi's kicks like that, he must be considered quite strong. Why, then, did other Thai boxers lose to him? Monsawan-Sriprae-Pudpadnoi-Worawut have all helped strengthen this Japanese boxer. The answer is that their readiness was not enough(?). This victory of Narongnoi is considered to be the erasing of the old beliefs that were stuck in the hearts of Thais who were afraid that Japan would become the master of Thai boxing. It will probably be a long time and it will be difficult as long as Thai boxers can maintain our identity. But we cannot be complacent. If we are arrogant and think that the Japanese will not give up, we Thais may be hurt again because they will not give up. If we make a mistake today, he will have to find a way to make up for it tomorrow."
    • Sylvie wrote a really cool article about why sparring escalates, even when people are trying to go light. A gem from 10 years ago. https://8limbsus.com/blog/brain-science-sparring-gets-control-neurology-muay-thai
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