Questions about Muay Thai "Authenticity" in the West
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By Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu · Posted
At times I think to myself "now, is a good time to dig into Sylvie's record". It's found here on Google Sheets, with links to every fight, estimated weights of opponents, details and notes. It's one of the most comprehensive and thorough public records of fighting in Thailand ever, if not the most. The reason why I occasionally find myself cycling back into it is that its a record like no other in the history of Muay Thai fighting in the world, especially among female fighters, so it is quite hard to assess. Comparison is how we like to values and in many ways Sylvie's record is without comparison. Also, if the work is not done, the story is not written, it will fall to forgetting, and sport survives through remembrance. One of the biggest issues of comparison is just its sheer size. She is coming on 300 fights fought. She likely holds the record for most documented fights fought by a female fighter (an amateur boxer, I'm sorry I don't have her name at hand) is very close to the same. She definitely is the female fighter with the most documented pro fights, regardless of combat sport, there isn't really a somewhat second place (that I know of). And, most of her opponents are opponents you would never hear of unless you are extremely knowledgeable about Thailand female Muay Thai (from 2012-present), about as niche a combat sport knowledge as there is. Far from international coverage there are 1,000s upon 1,000s of Muay Thai fights fought, not near the capital, as Thailand is the home of Muay Thai and fighting in the sport is culturally robust. Each region has local champions or elite fighters, many of which would not find their way to Bangkok (particularly before the recent rise of Entertainment Muay Thai and Soft Power initiatives); there is an entire network of side-bet (gambling) fighting throughout the provinces, in their cities, towns and wats. Some of these female fighters find their way to Bangkok, increasingly now they do, but in the years Sylvie was most active many did not. So, we are left with a relatively unknown reservoir of talent which does not register on the common Western fan's radar. So, what I did was take out all fighters in Sylvie's record who have not reached Western awareness (including only those that also would have, anachronistically). The list is of all fighters who have at one time, before or after Sylvie has fought them, been World Champions for International orgs (incl: WBC, WPMF, WMC, WMO, IFMA). These are fighters who at one point were regarded as the best in their weight class in the World. 39 times Sylvie has fought these one-time World Champions. Below records her opponents and her record against them. 18 fighters in all. Sylvie von Duuglas-Ittu vs World Champions *adding to this Sylvie's 3 World Titles (WBC, IPCC 2x) The second difficulty in assessing Sylvie's record is that unless any female fighter (likely in history) she has fought well out of her weight class, sometimes 3 or 4 weight classes up. In her voracious drive to fight as much as possible she took fights that just no other officially managed fighter would take. Because she grew within the sub-culture and its language she was able to operate like a free-agent, booking her own fights. Because she was not represented by a powerful gym, or a powerful promotion, she could take fights that would be far outside the possibility of opportunity for others. This makes comparison with other female fighters extremely difficult, simply because nobody else has done this. There was a bold (and beautiful) challenge of Smilla Sundell for her belt by the excellent Allycia Rodrigues, fighting up a weight class (it may have been closer to two weight classes, as Smilla is large for her class, and Allycia seems modestly sized in hers). So much admiration for her to go for it. It's extremely rare for strong female fighters to fight opponents 2 or 3 weight classes up, even among Thais. Sylvie has done this regularly, not only against the talent pool of Thailand at large, but against World Champion skill-level opponents. In the graphic above there is also recorded a rough estimate of how many weight classes Sylvie was reaching up. Most often in Thailand (in part because Westerners are large-bodied, in part because Western friendly gyms have a lot of power in the fight-game), Western fighters are fighting down. Size advantages are quite common place in Thailand for the Western fighter. Sometimes its only a few pounds, sometimes its quite significant. This makes Sylvie size-charging even more difficult to assess. If she was managed in an official way most of the fights above would never been arranged. Gyms like to flex and get advantages for their fighters, and weight is one of the most common advantages pressed for. So, leave aside for a moment all of Sylvie's other fights, and just look at these 42 (including her own 3 World Titles). Notably, these are not champions derived from a single organization or promotion (sometimes champions can be produced out of very small fighter pools), these are champions recognized by different selection processes and politics, a cross-section of the sport. This is an unparalleled collection of challenge, and if she had only fought these fights, especially given the weight differences, it would likely count as the most difficult female Muay Thai record in history, fighting a whose who of a generation of female Muay Thai fighters within 3 weight classes. Again and again Sylvie took the very steep climb, getting into the ring against fighters, many of which she would not be favored again. 42 fights in generations past would be considered a decent career total for a Western female fighter. No, Sylvie did not fight each of these fighters when they were World Champions, that is not even concievably possible, they were not champions at the same time, and fighters ebb and flow in skill quality, but this remains a meaningful cross-section of female fighters, each of which have reached the peak of at least one org's measure of elite. Sylvie vs Internationally Ranked and Local Stadium Champions The additional list below shows the same fights individually, but also includes fighters who have been recognized by International organizations, ranked at some time by the WBC, WPMF, WMC or WMO. This list also includes local stadium champions, most of these drawn from Chiang Mai. Chiang Mai at the time when Sylvie did most of her fighting up there was a haven for female fighting because there was a female Thai stadium scene that was quite organized, and not for the Western tourist. Kob Cassette who ran the Muay Siam Northern Chapter, and the Thaphae stadium fight scene, specifically steered the scene away from Thai vs farang matchups, limiting such fights to only one on a card. Thais mostly fought Thais for the stadium belt, because they were working to build a Thai female Muay Thai legitimacy in the North. (In fact, Sylvie beat Faa Chiang Rai for the Northern 105 lb Muay Siam belt, but was stripped of it after she won it because it should only belong to a Thai). This is to say, these belts were seriously organized, primarily reflecting the best of the region among Thais. These were not the kinds of stadium belts that rotate among various fighters in tourism Muay Thai of other cities. The reason for including stadium champions though, aside from just respect for Thais in the Muay Thai of their own culture, is that these champions would in fact be ranked now, in today's leading procedures. The way that rankings of Thais work for orgs like the WBC is that knowledgeable Thai headhunters and promoters help inform the committee who is top in the country. This is extremely difficult and shifting knowledge in Thailand, and orgs that rank Thais in an updated fashion really need to be commended, but, this is to say, a Chiang Mai stadium champion of Sylvie's era in Chiang Mai would definitely be ranked by this process...now. So the list accurately captures a cross-section of fighter quality as it has been recognized by international orgs, or would be. These are all recognized fighters. There are some supremely good opponents in the rolls below, which could easily have been World Champion if given enough opportunity, fighters worthy of special mention like Gaewdaa (as sharp as any at 45 kg), Jomkwan (who in her prime when Sylvie fought her was as good as anyone she has faced), Muangsingjiew (Sawsing's cousin) so skilled, such a fighter, Thaksaporn (so tough). Adding up all lists these are, in total 149 fights. This total alone would be more documented fights than any Western fighter in Thailand, or more documented pro fights by a female Muay Thai fighter...in history. And all opponents recognized for their quality on an International standard. The entire collection of opponents, leaving aside the repeated weight disadvantages, is unheard of in female Muay Thai fighting. It's maybe 3 prolific female fighters records, combined in a single fighter, none of it of unknown fighters on a Western scale...and Sylvie has 125 more fights not on this list, made of fighters you might never have heard of, unless you were in those communities. But this doesn't mean that they also are unworthy. The interesting thing about Sylvie's record is that because she was not being booked by a powerful gym or being promoted by a promotion, almost all her fight matchups were created within the Muay Thai community, according to what seemed an equitable pairing. Nobody is punching down because nobody is exercising power on Sylvie's behalf. Each of these is a someone who has dedicated herself to her sport. This is the primary reason why Sylvie has fought up so often, and so much. It was regarded that notable weight disadvantages leveled the playing field. The community of Muay Thai regarded as these matchups as worth making, and Sylvie is almost always fighting up against these fighters. You never are going to get adequate one-for-one record comparisons within the sport of female Muay Thai. Female fighters follow different paths, and politics and opportunity combine to present distinct pools of fighters to face. And with the rise of Entertainment Muay Thai it is easy to think that the small pools of a single promotion's fighters may represent quality on the world scale (they might!), but fighter pools remain diverse and separated, generally speaking. Each prolific and great female fighter has told her own wonderful story in the pools she has been able to reach. Just because you may not have heard of a fighter doesn't mean that they lack quality. They might, but they also may be incredibly skilled...this happens all the time in Thailand, because the fighting is so widespread in the culture. Multiple times Sylvie, who has been about as aware of who the best female fighters in the world are as anyone, has been shocked by the skills of someone she faced who seemed to come out of nowhere. And, in Thailand, it is not completely uncommon to show up to a fight against an unknown fighter, only to find out that a World Champion (literally one of the best fighters in the world) has been subbed in, or is appearing under another name. No lights show, no fancy stadium, and you are facing one of the best in the world. Sylvie has fought so much, and so many opponents (now approaching 150 different Thai fighters), that she's learned that Entertainment shows, and org rankings are all drawing on the very same opponent pool that she is fighting. And often its Sylvie facing someone that puts them on the Entertainment radar. This is to say, let Sylvie's record be what it is...wonderful. A tremendous celebration of the female fighting of Thailand, especially of Thai female fighters...it is their sport, we are only privileged to be a part of it. As much as we Westerners would like to lay claim to achievement, what we have come to learn is that Thai female fighters are the best at muay of their country, the muay of their culture, the muay of their people. It's great to be exporting the sport, and building enthusiasm and passion for it around the world, but it all needs to start with respect for the Thai fighter, the fighter who knows it better than anyone else. You can find a spreadsheet of the above 149 fights of Sylvie's Record here. And the Complete Record of Sylvie's Fights is here (with links to video of - nearly - every single fight). We from the beginning have not only sought to be as transparent as possible about our experiences, we also have worked hard at documenting every single fight that we could, because the whole thing is a testament...not to Sylvie, but to all of Thailand's female Muay Thai. Sylvie video record captures the Muay Thai of more than a generation of female Muay Thai fighting in Thailand, including fighters of importance, passion and skill that may not yet or even been swept up in the Western media gaze, and so many who have been. It is an archive of female muay...that's why we record, that why we post and organize it all. You honor your opponents when you name them, and record their efforts in anyway, when you send their passion and commitment forward to the eyes of others. Also...and not less than this, Sylvie's commitment has been to the belief that the best way to love Muay Thai, and to know Muay Thai, is by fighting. She realized early on that generally belts meant very little compared to the actual experience of fighting itself. Fight everyone, fight often, that is the only way to come in contact, intimately, with the art and sport itself. Have those experiences. Each and every time you come out of a fight transformed, changed, grown. Take challenges, fight up! Each fight is precious, and this is the same feeling she has coming up on 300. If you think you are good at 50 fights, try 75, try 100, you'll be better, you'll know something more, something else. You'll love the art and sport more. The documentation of it all, is about that. This isn't to say that if you fight in other ways, under other standards of excellence, in different fighter pools, you are less great or wonderful. There are so many ways of fighting, of measuring, competing, becoming recognized, and fighters and their teams necessarily compare themselves. That's all good, its part of the passion. This is just to present this one wonderful example, hopefully to inspire this kind of fighting, if only a little bit. -
By Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu · Posted
Sylvie's Elitely Difficult Fight Record Just organizing Sylvie's record a little bit this morning, and noting this. It may very well be that no female Muay Thai fighter has fought a tougher collection of opponents than Sylvie has in the 39 fights. These are all her opponents who have been World Champion at one point in their career, and Sylvie's record against them. What is unparalleled, I believe, isn't the sheer number of World Champion quality of fighters, but also how many times she went up in weight to face them, including jumps of multiple weight classes. Weight is the single most determining factor of fight match up fairness, whereas Sylvie has consistently fought much higher than her weight even against elite level fighters. I can't think of a fighter who has done this. -
By Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu · Posted
How to Judge a Long Term Muay Thai Gym in Thailand A perspective of Muay Thai gyms in Thailand, from someone who has seen a few (usually with an eye towards: would this be a good place to train for Sylvie?) I've already written at length on the Authenticity of Muay Thai gyms, this is something else. This is something else. It's just a basic conception we've relied on in judging gyms. I see them something like production lines in a factory, maybe like a cupcake factory. This is not to say that the workings of a Muay Thai gym in Thailand are mechanistic, but rather that the dynamics of the gym may be occluded from view. You have all these gears and mechanisms, many of them you might not even understand or appreciate. Ways of training, reputation, social hierarchies & politics in the gym, the personality of the owner, fight promotion alliances, its a whole living thing in Thailand. But, what you want to look at...what I look at, is "what does it produce?" What cupcakes come down the conveyor belt? That's what the whole process is doing. Now, this is a little complicated in Thailand because in terms of Thais bigger name gyms actually buy their cupcakes already made. They buy them baked. They might put them through an additional process, develop them some, but mostly they were made elsewhere, by other processes. As someone coming long term to Thailand you really want to get into the deeper processes themselves, which may not be where big name fighters are. There could be very good training around big name fighters, but it isn't likely developmental training, the thing that makes the cupcakes. For that you need to see Thai kids and teens. On another level though, many gyms have long term Westerners (and others). Pay less attention to the supposed training and trying to judge that from afar, and more paying attention to the way farang fight that have gone through that process over time. See what foreign cupcakes are coming down the conveyor belt. What do they fight like in the ring? What skills or styles do they show? Look for the kinds of cupcakes being made that you want to be like. Long-term farang usually settle into a training culture of their own in a gym, and may be even more important than the training prescription itself when it comes down to what the gym is going to make of you, because one is always taking cues from those to the left and right of you. It's one of the beautiful things about Thailand. Things like: how fast do you wrap your hands, how much do you chit-chat, do you do full rounds on the pads, do you do shadowboxing, or finish the run will be shaped by your co-fighters (students). I remember in our first year of Lanna 30 minute hand wrapping in the morning was kind of a thing, a thing Sylvie had to consciously fight against, because its was the gym tempo. Gyms might have reputations, good or bad, but look at what they actually make. That way you can align your desires to commitment. I want to undergo that. And...if the kinds of fighters coming out of a gym, made by that gym, both Thai and farang, aren't the kind of things you like, perhaps move away from that gym, because if you undergo those processes you too will look like that, those cupcakes. This isn't to criticize gyms, there are all kinds of cupcakes. This is actually one of our ways of thinking about gyms, for Sylvie (and sometimes others). To see the value of the forces that are at play, see what they do, and think: do I want some of that? Now for Sylvie who is intensely experienced (and pretty much fluent in Thai), and who has unusual requirements in Thailand (her size, her desire to be near Thai culture & training ethics, some freedom from Thai politics), things are a bit more complex. We think about this in layers. We look at gyms and see what cupcakes they make, and take from that a certain education about what the processes will do to you. Sometimes the cupcakes that are coming out of a gym might not be all that awesome, in terms of what you want to be, but you can still learn valuably from what is produced. Sometimes you can be: I want to train at this gym for this reason, or that (but I have to be careful because I don't want to be turned into that kind of fighter, the kind that this gym's processes tend to produce). With this you can ward off, or look for those things that make that kind of fighter, or...take precautions to look for these things in oneself. A great deal of training in a gym is unconscious. You become shaped by people training beside you, for better or worse. That's why the cupcake example is important. You don't necessarily have to identity what is producing quality x or y...you just have to be aware that this is what tends to happen. Sometimes its as simple as: This gym produces lazy fighters, this gym produces very tough fighters. Even broadbrush things like this come out of the culture of a gym and its practices. The way that authority and values are exercised, the aesthetics of its muay. This alone might be a reason to train at a gym, or avoid one. The vibe is contagious, and shaping, even if you are experienced. For Sylvie she build-a-bear's her training, from different gyms, and private training, because its hard to find a gym that has "everything" so to speak. You look at certain things different gyms do well, and try to weave them. This though, is incredibly difficult in Thailand politically, and isn't advised. I mention it only to expand on the cupcake factory idea, that gyms can tend to produce qualities, qualities that draw your eye. To return to more regular examples, if you are drawn to technical training don't just think about whether there is correction in training. Look at how long term farang fighters fight, coming out of that gym. If you are looking for Muay Khao training, do the long term farang from that gym fight as strong Muay Khao and clinch fighters? Look at Instagram and Facebook pages and watch some fights, if you are researching seriously. Off the top of my head if you want an example from female fighting I'd take a look at Alycia and Barbara at Phuket Fight Club, something I've thought about. I haven't a clue what their training is like, and I really don't care that they are on big name promotions. If you look at the two fighters you can see what they train. They are both intensely driven, have sound principles, fight within themselves (what they know they do well), have a core, effective forward style, are tough minded with a technical dimension and are open to clinch. There are many important things that could probably be said in much more detail by people in the ground, but you can see what the gym has made, its processes. Jalill Barnes who also trains there, much of the same qualities. I'm not even recommending the gym (I don't know much about it), I'm just using the example to show how you can see the process in fighters. I don't mean to single it out, but I needed an example to keep the whole thing from being too abstract. It's not that everyone fights the same, or even that a gym has a style (some might). It's that certain qualities get disseminated through the process of training, and a gym's support or allowance of those qualities. Sometimes this is expressed in style, sometimes in other things. But, largely when positive qualities show themselves, things you are looking for, this is a good thing. It means that there is a consistent way.
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In my experience, 1 pair of gloves is fine (14oz in my case, so I can spar safely), just air them out between training (bag gloves definitely not necessary). Shinguards are a good idea, though gyms will always have them and lend them out- just more hygienic to have your own. 2 pairs of wraps, 2 shorts (I like the lightweight Raja ones for the heat), 1 pair of good road running trainers. Good gumshield and groin-protector, naturally. Every time I finish training, I bring everything into the shower (not gloves or shinnies, obviously) with me to clean off the (bucketsfull in my case) of sweat, but things dry off quickly here outside of the monsoon season. One thing I have found I like is smallish, cotton briefs for training (less cloth, therefore sweaty wetness than boxers, etc.- bring underwear from home- decent, cotton stuff is strangely expensive here). Don't weigh yourself down too much. You might want to buy shorts or vests from the gym(s) as (useful) souvenirs. I recommend Action Zone and Keelapan, next door, in Bangkok (good selection and prices): https://www.google.com/maps/place/Action+Zone/@13.7474264,100.5206774,17z/data=!4m14!1m7!3m6!1s0x30e29931ee397e41:0x4c8f06926c37408b!2sAction+Zone!8m2!3d13.7474212!4d100.5232523!16s%2Fg%2F1hm3_f5d2!3m5!1s0x30e29931ee397e41:0x4c8f06926c37408b!8m2!3d13.7474212!4d100.5232523!16s%2Fg%2F1hm3_f5d2?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTAyOS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D -
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Hi all, I am fortunate enough to have the opportunity to be traveling to Thailand soon for just over a month of traveling and training. I am a complete beginner and do not own any training gear. One of the first stops on my trip will be to explore Bangkok and purchase equipment. What should be on my list? Clearly, gloves, wraps, shorts and mouthguard are required. I would be grateful for some more insight e.g. should I buy bag gloves and sparring gloves, whether shin pads are worthwhile for a beginner, etc. I'm partiularly conscious of the heat and humidity, it would make sense to pack two pairs of running shoes, two sets of gloves, several handwraps and lots of shorts. Any nuggets of wisdom are most welcome. Thanks in advance for your contributions! -
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