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Thailand training blog: Manop gym


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Hey guys, this is where i'll be making my daily blogs with training in Manop's gym, might be interesting to some of you and also good for me so i can remember experience i had in depth. I'll cover how hard it was for me physically, emotinally and mentally, physical and mindset struggles along the way.

I came to Manop's gym in Dec 2nd 18:30 had a long 24+ hr day with flights and so on so didn't train that day, got introduced to the people here, seemed fun and good people to be around with. I noticed one thing tho and i had big concern about training. As a person who has asthma i had hard time breathing just doing nothing, walking around or even laying in the bed, i thought this might be the problem because if i'll train it will certainly get harder. I used some of the meds but they didn't help 2 much. About 8:30 we all went to the market and this was the first time i had a taste of thai food , was really good and prices compared to my country seemed small.  Around 22:00 came back to my room went to bed,  this was 1st day, no training. 

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Day 1 of training: wake up 6:50 have a quick snack(dragonfruit) before running. 

7:10 we go run for 1hour and comeback to do the training. As for person with asthma this wasn't easy for me, but i tried to control the pace and managed to finish the run.

In morning  training after run we did bag work, leg kicks on pads, and some physical training, we finish training around 10:20 or 10:30 and did some light stretching , went out to eat and got some sleep before our next training. 

16:00 some people go run 30min some stay in gym and skip rope, i did rope skipping until guys came back from running. After that wep went shadow boxing 15mins. After that we went on the pads with full legs,elbows, knees,hands,  full package for 5rounds. After that 4-5rounds on the bag and after that 30min clinch. On clinch all people were better than me, considering they weight 65-70 and im 83 that just shows how important the technique and timing is. One guy hit me with a strong knee and it hurt bad , i didn't show, but i thought ok  l, he's 65kg, if 80kg guy would do like this to me, i might not be able to fight. Iv'e done ab work, but never felt a knee to the body, good experience for awareness. At the end we finish with some physical training and stretching.  I was tired on the end , but what was killing me the most after clinching was my neck, couldn't even keep my head up decently for some time. After training i was talking with Manop about fighting as a beginner , i never knew it's always 5rounds for 3min  , seen Sylvie fight 3rounds for 3mins and i thought i might manage that, but 5rounto5rounds considering my asthma, i just doubt i'll have enough conditioning for that amount of time. I have thoughts If i try to flight and don't finish fight in 3, i'll be out of breath and have no chance of winning. Anyways after training we go eat, came back and  went to sleep.  I was thinking eating 2-3times a day might not be enough for me  considering im 83kg atm, 3meals might not be enough for me to keep my energy , but for now i'll go like this and see how it goes. P.S also bought electrolites ,noticed dehydratation even tho i was drinking, 6l water a day.

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43 minutes ago, Oliver said:

Are you living in the gym dude? How much do they charge to let you sleep there I was wondering 🙂

Good luck with the training & fight 🙂

The place is kinda cheap. 10k for training 6k for room. Thanks!

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Day 2 of training:  Wake up 6:50, quick fruit snack and go run for 50mins..running today was harder than yesterday, breathing seemed more heavy and i could hear my lungs making a squeeky sound i was breathing out. Pace wasnt fast but im glad i managed to finish the run.. After that 15min shadow boxing, leg kicks on pads, after that some bag work, sparring and finish up with some physical things and stretching. After workout felt kinda good  ,went to eat and tried to get some sleep. Around 15:50 alarm went off, i woke up and felt tired, had loads of pain , some stress rashes and just some blue places in my legs from all the training and sparring i had. I thought i was going to skip this training , but i forced myself to go.

16:00 Calf muscles were sore so running was hard, did 25min instead of 30. After that shadow boxing, pad work for 3rounds bag for 6rounds. Then guys went to clinch and i stayed to shadow box and learn the front leg teep from Manop.  Did 200reps in shadow and i don't even know how many on the bag. The more teeps i did the more natural it felt and the quality of the technique increased, ofc far from perfect but as a beginner i felt an improvement so was really happy about it . After that just finished up with some physical training and stretching, training finished aprox 7:30. Went to have some food, now came back , going to sleep soon , wake up next day and try to do the best that i can. I hope my asthma gets either better or doesn't get worse, wouldn't like to have asthma attack, they don't know i have it + i have no insurance so that also wouldn't help, either way, so far so good. Really hard considering i came after 1month of no training, was suppose to run 30mins a day for 3weeks before i came, but had bad asthma attack and cought virus, so couldn't run, focused on recovering so i can come fully healed to train in Thailand. 🙂 P.S only today i found out you block body kicks with leg,  thought hand protection is enough, didn't know that doesn't count and scores points. 

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Day 3 of training: Had a bad sleep , couldn't fully fall asleep so felt kinda tired in the morning calf muscles keep hurting from the days before, either way i have to run. I found a temple almost 5k away from the gym,  good destination if you ask me. Run 5k, get beautiful sight reward and run back. At 7:00 i go for a run, comeback at 08:00. Did shadow boxing,  6rounds on the bag, but once it came to the pads i felt tired and out of breath, asthma triggered decently for the 1st time, couldn't even finish the pad work, needed time to breathe and recover. After a round i quickly rushed to my room and took my asthma medication, it didn't help 2much, breathing was easier but i couldn't fully breath in. Went back to the training like this, managed to finish knees to the bag , physical workout in the end and stretching.  Decided that today i'll skip the second workout because felt really weak and out of breath. Went to the drug store to look for more serious meds for asthma, but seems like in this smaller drug store they didn't have it. I felt kinda shity that i had to skip afternoon training this early in the camp, but at the same time i understand that might have been a good thing. Tomorrow i'll try to get both workouts in in hopes that i feel a little better, also will have to look for a bigger drug store so i can get better asthma meds that might help relieve my sympthoms. 

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Day 4 training: wake up and feel wayy better, more relaxed , breathing easier. 

07:00 go for 1h run . 08:00 back to the gym, 15min shadow, 3 rounds on pads with kicks 6rounds on the bag, and after that 5more rounds on the bag while others were sparring. Finish up with knees to the bag and some physical work + stretching in the end.  Session felt better but my left calf is killing me, as a southpaw i always have to keep heel up and it hurts real bad, so far i can push thru. 

2nd training session 16:00. Couldn't call 2sleep in the day so when training started felt kinda sleepy. 30minute jog wasn't bad, but same problem as before, left calf pain. After runs 15min shadow, 3rounds 4min full combo's on the pads, 5rounds on the bag, some knees to the bag , finish up with clinching. Last time i did clinching it was really hard, was falling loads of times, this time i went down maybe only 3times,  did couple takedowns myself, ofc far away from these guys, but im happy to see improvement. Finish with light physical work and stretching.  After this training felt really tired and calf pain keeps geting worse, i hope i can finish my morning run tomorrow . Oh and also Manop said i might fight next week, felt kinda weird, been off training for a while, come train for like 1week + and have a fight? Don't really have that cofidence yet, but if i fight it will def be a great experience. 

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Day 5 training. 

07:00 08:00 usual run, after that run felt belly bloating, was diarrhea. Spent 1hr in toilet, puking etc. Had to skip morning training. Didn't eat anything neither before or past run,good thing i had protein shake. 

16:00 30min run,  15min shadow,  5rounds on bag, 3rounds on pads and 3rounds on bag again. After that others went to clinch and Manop told me to do knees to bag. Learning the technique seems to be hard, feel stiff, especially on my right side, my right hip is always making a sound and i have a little bit of pain there each time i use leg or knee on that side , if i had to guess i'd say It's hip impingement. My knee technique is poor for now, my skin comes of after i finish the knees and there is blood coming out under the skin, i don't think it's the bag, it's my technique that sucks, have a day to rest , i hope my knees heal a little, if not i should focus more on leg kicks and teeps, elbows until it does. Going to look for hip impingement solutions on the internet, that hip doesn't help, teeps hurt, knees hurt and kicks also seem to be less of a quality, can't seem to turn hips as i can on the left side. 

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Day 6: day without training , bought some food, walked around and found 2 beautiful temples. Next Sunday i'll probably go visit Chiang Rai's White Temple, Wat Rong Suea Ten Temple and just look around the city, here are some pics from today's walk around.  🙂

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1 hour ago, Matty said:

Thank you for these posts.

I will be going to Manop's gym Jan 3 - it helps a lot to know what to expect 🙂

Will you still be there in Jan?

I hope it helps, seems like a fun gym. There is one girl that comes to training each day, goes only once a day tho, all other people who train here are guys, they are kind, funny and helpful so no worries. I'll be leaving on December 26th. Going to stay in Ubon Ratchathani 27-30 and if Sylvie can get a hold of Sagat i'll go stay in Bangkok 30-31 for privates with him. If not i'll just prob stay in Ubon, flying back to my country straight after new year. On Jan 1st. Will you go train 2times a day or only once?

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Day 7 training. 

07:00-08:00 morning run, 15min shadow boxing, 5rounds on the bag 3rounds on pads, 5rounds on bag again, knees in shadow, kicks in shadow. Finish with light physical work and stretching. 

16:00 30min run,  15min shadow, 5rounds bag ,  4rounds on the pads, 5rounds on bag again, finish up 30min learning elbows on bag, light physical workout and stretching.  I noticed i don't have sparring most of the time even tho i bought expensive thick shin guards and i don't get to clinch often. Both most important parts of training if you're training for a fight and im not geting it. Had spar only once and clinch twice in this time while other guys always do it. Losing confidence as the times goes and fight gets closer,  training hard is good, but if you get no spar and no clinch you're not doing the most important part of the training. 

19:30 we finish training and leave, going to Chiang Mai Stadium watching one guy from the Manop's gym having a fight. First time in stadium like this, was nice experience.  Beautiful fight, he managed to get 2round k.o with leg kicks. 🙂

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18 hours ago, RB Coop said:

I hope it helps, seems like a fun gym. There is one girl that comes to training each day, goes only once a day tho, all other people who train here are guys, they are kind, funny and helpful so no worries. I'll be leaving on December 26th. Going to stay in Ubon Ratchathani 27-30 and if Sylvie can get a hold of Sagat i'll go stay in Bangkok 30-31 for privates with him. If not i'll just prob stay in Ubon, flying back to my country straight after new year. On Jan 1st. Will you go train 2times a day or only once?

Ah, I will have miss you by days.

And thanks for the heads up about the gym being all guys. Mental preparation is nice for this kind of thing 🙂

Sounds awesome to get to travel around for different gyms. I haven't start my trip yet and already wish I had more time... What gym will you train at in Ubon? If I remember correctly, Lamnamoon's gym there as well.

I plan to train 2 times a day and hoping to fight at least once. (I really was hoping to fight 2 times, but I'm afraid I don't have enough time) 😞

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5 hours ago, Matty said:

Ah, I will have miss you by days.

And thanks for the heads up about the gym being all guys. Mental preparation is nice for this kind of thing 🙂

Sounds awesome to get to travel around for different gyms. I haven't start my trip yet and already wish I had more time... What gym will you train at in Ubon? If I remember correctly, Lamnamoon's gym there as well.

I plan to train 2 times a day and hoping to fight at least once. (I really was hoping to fight 2 times, but I'm afraid I don't have enough time) 😞

Yeah, i'll prob visit Lamnamoon's gym in Ubon. How long are you staying in Manop's gym? 

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19 hours ago, RB Coop said:

.  I noticet of the time even tho i bought expensive thick shin guards and i don't get to clinch often. Both most important parts of training if you're training for a fight and im not geting it. Had spar only once and clinch twice in this time while other guys always do it. Losing confidence as the times goes and fight gets closer,  training hard is good, but if you get no spar and no clinch you're not doing the most important part of the training. 

 

I'm a female fighter and after 1.5 years of training with the last nine months being in a traditional thai gym with mainly very skilled male fighters I learnt you have to ask for it. It's awkward and hard. As a woman I had to force myself to get in the ring while the others were clinching and more than once guys who've been paired up with me have refused to clinch. I was also told to get out of the ring to kick pads while the guys did hard sparring. I insisted and for a while I was forced to wear a helmet (which felt humiliating) until slowly I was accepted and then fully included. 

I am not trying to hijack your diary (I really appreciate your posts btw) just to to tell you to not give up. If you pay for training you deserve to get what you paid for. 

 

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9 minutes ago, LengLeng said:

I'm a female fighter and after 1.5 years of training with the last nine months being in a traditional thai gym with mainly very skilled male fighters I learnt you have to ask for it. It's awkward and hard. As a woman I had to force myself to get in the ring while the others were clinching and more than once guys who've been paired up with me have refused to clinch. I was also told to get out of the ring to kick pads while the guys did hard sparring. I insisted and for a while I was forced to wear a helmet (which felt humiliating) until slowly I was accepted and then fully included. 

I am not trying to hijack your diary (I really appreciate your posts btw) just to to tell you to not give up. If you pay for training you deserve to get what you paid for. 

 

Im def not giving up, but this is kinda frustraiting. They say im kinda heavy as other guys are 10-15kg lighter than me and have fights coming up, but so do i. I guess as they are staying here longer and representing their gym he wants to be careful with his fighters but i have upcoming fight 2, seems unfair that they don't let me do what other ppl who train there are doing, especially considering i'll have a fight. If you're not going to let me spar why sell expensive shin pads that im not even using. 

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1 hour ago, RB Coop said:

Im def not giving up, but this is kinda frustraiting. They say im kinda heavy as other guys are 10-15kg lighter than me and have fights coming up, but so do i. I guess as they are staying here longer and representing their gym he wants to be careful with his fighters but i have upcoming fight 2, seems unfair that they don't let me do what other ppl who train there are doing, especially considering i'll have a fight. If you're not going to let me spar why sell expensive shin pads that im not even using. 

That seems like an odd excuse, weight differences are common and I often see thai trainers sparring with less experienced heavier guys. Usually the head trainer knows how to control these differences. Are those fighters foreigners or thais? Is your fight confirmed? Sometimes it can sound like things are determined when they are really not...

It can be hard to understand communication in Thailand. Some times things that are not necessarily true are said to save face or to avoid discomfort. 

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1 hour ago, LengLeng said:

That seems like an odd excuse, weight differences are common and I often see thai trainers sparring with less experienced heavier guys. Usually the head trainer knows how to control these differences. Are those fighters foreigners or thais? Is your fight confirmed? Sometimes it can sound like things are determined when they are really not...

It can be hard to understand communication in Thailand. Some times things that are not necessarily true are said to save face or to avoid discomfort. 

Foreigners, 3of them. 1had fight yest, other has fight on friday and 3rd one has fight on 15th in bangkok. Well as far as i know i'll fight, but i've seen how they treat foreigners in stadium.. As long as they know you don't know Thai lang they can mess with you. The guy thay fought yesterday, they wanted to mess with him again, they once put him in a ring with a guy 10kg above hi's weight, but this time he knew some Thai lang so they didn't go with it, he informed Manop and it went smooth. He got different fighter, but it wasn't 10kg above, might have been again if he wouldn't know the language. As far as i see manager of this gym and promoter seems like he doesn't break hi's word. From experiences iv'e seen and these guys told me. 🙂

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Day 8 of training: 

07:00-08:00 morning run, after 5rounds of sprints with tire, 15min shadow , 5rounds on bag, 4rounds leg kicks on pads. Finish with knees to bag,physical and stretching. 

16:00 30min run, 15min shadow, 3rounds on pads with full body,punches, elbows, knees, kicks etc. 6rounds on bag. 3rounds extra on bag to practice correct kicking technique. Finally got 30min clinch today, he's a beginner but so was i, so wasn't 2bad, i need to learn to use trips and angles because now seems i only use power without any trips. The guys that have fights coming up already finished training so clinch or spar with them was no option. Tomorrow or friday the one that had fight returns to training, so should be good for clinch and spar. 

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Day 9training : 07:00-07:40 run, 2much knee pain, started to feel more and more after 15k runs each day, had ACL tear a while back, probs the reason ant. ended up walking the rest 20 minutes to finish 1hour. 15min shadow 5rounds on bag, 3rounds on pads, 5rounds on bag again. After training we had a talk, they said at my weight there are 0fights right now, they said I'll need to drop 7kg by the time that fight comes,  i said no chance. Best i could prob do healthy would be 2-3kg. Anything more is really hard on the body, also considering i had 0fights and these guys are going to be 20-30plus fights, if also lose 7kg, im not only in experience  disadvantage but also cuting 7kg drains power and stamina, especially on such short period of time as 1 week. I hope someone comes up in like 79-80kg. Im 82'4 atm. 

 

16:00 30min run, 15min shadow, 3rounds on pads,5rounds on bags, teeps on bag for 300reps.  Also today learned a little more about how to throw the roundhouse kick correctly , was working on it for 30min. Elbows on the bag, light physical work and some stretching. 

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Only 1st half of Day 10 of training.  07:00-08:00 run. After that sprint for 5laps with tire and a brick. 15min shadow, 6rounds on the bag, 1round extra just for low kicks and hands. After that 300knees, 500teeps, some ab work and stretching. I was the only one working out today, because one guy fighting today, other guy fighting pakorn on sunday in Bangkok. As i finished workout Manop came out and said someone told him i have asthma and now he's afraid i'll have asthma attack in the fight,  so he said he's going to give me even more hard training from monday to see if i don't gass out or have asthma attack. That's kinda not fair  , one guy was training here for 2months, he gassed in 2nd round and ref stoped the fight. I have no problem going out the same way, but i think i could do better. But to withdraw me like that without giving a chance feels really unfair, especially considering he let that guy fight who gassed in 2, but is afraid to let me in. That's the reason i didn't want them to know about asthma, shouldn't told the gym friends, even tho i said don't tell Manop, seems like someone leaked. I hope in the end i get to have the experience regardless of the fight outcome. 

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5 hours ago, RB Coop said:

Only 1st half of Day 10 of training.  07:00-08:00 run. After that sprint for 5laps with tire and a brick. 15min shadow, 6rounds on the bag, 1round extra just for low kicks and hands. After that 300knees, 500teeps, some ab work and stretching. I was the only one working out today, because one guy fighting today, other guy fighting pakorn on sunday in Bangkok. As i finished workout Manop came out and said someone told him i have asthma and now he's afraid i'll have asthma attack in the fight,  so he said he's going to give me even more hard training from monday to see if i don't gass out or have asthma attack. That's kinda not fair  , one guy was training here for 2months, he gassed in 2nd round and ref stoped the fight. I have no problem going out the same way, but i think i could do better. But to withdraw me like that without giving a chance feels really unfair, especially considering he let that guy fight who gassed in 2, but is afraid to let me in. That's the reason i didn't want them to know about asthma, shouldn't told the gym friends, even tho i said don't tell Manop, seems like someone leaked. I hope in the end i get to have the experience regardless of the fight outcome. 

Oh no I'm so sorry. Hoping it will work out! 

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7 hours ago, LengLeng said:

Oh no I'm so sorry. Hoping it will work out! 

Yeah, so far so good, today when we went to watch fight in a stadium Manop introduced me to some people and we went to check my weight. I should have a fight before i leave, fingers crossed. Also fighter from my gym today lost by k.o sadly, he was just after sickness, was hard for him ,  but i enjoyed hi's fight, takes courage to go in, especially when you were sick. 

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In a manner different than much of Western symbology, Samart is signaling his dominance through rope work, interception and evasion. watch this study of Samart's defense along the ropes in his Golden Age rematch vs Namphon   In a general way, just at the level of style, watch this highlight compilation of the switching footwork of possibly the most artful fighter of Thailand's Golden Age, the great Karuhat Sor Supawan (below). You will see his deft switching in both attack and defense at the ropes featured here, but when in the lead and he performs his best magic, his back is to the rope. Back to the rope signals dominance. watch Muay Thai Scholar's study of the legend Karuhat's switching footwork   Dipping into Thai History and the Games of Go and Chess Thailand's Muay Thai is a fighting art and combat sport of extraordinary uniqueness. Fashioned as it has been from at least 100+ years of continuous provincial fighting deep in its countryside custom - something that may stretch back multiple centuries - fortified and shaped by Royal and State warfare, itself composed of worldwide mercenary influences, from Japanese & Javanese merchant pirates to Persian & Portuguese regimented manpower, it stands as both a cosmopolitan fighting art, and still one which has been richly woven together as wholly Buddhistic Siamese and then Thai continuity. Channeled and informed by British Boxing's colonialist, pressuring example in its modernizing period (1920-1950s), what remains most valuable in Muay Thai are the ways it is like no other fighting art. It's a purity of difference. Both lab-tested in 100,000s of full-contact ring fights multiplied by generations, and expressive of wool-dyed Buddhistic principles, this is a synergy of provincial and the Capital fight knowledge, both martial and sport, like no other in the world. They just fight differently...and have arguably been the best ring fighters in the world. The at-top diagram juxtaposing two combat inspired board games, Chess and the game of Go, aims to draw out some of the deeper philosophical and conceptual differences between Thailand's Southeast Asian fighting art and many of Western conceptions of combat, especially at the dominant image of thought level. Chess is a game of some disputed origin approximately 1,500 years ago. It was not a Western game. It's largely believed to have come from India by way of Persia. The Western Chess vocabulary is etymologically Persian, and the Persian version of the game is closest to the one adopted in Europe. Interestingly enough, the birth of Chess and its dissemination throughout the world across tradewinds corresponds roughly to the period, 3rd-6th century AD, during which Southeast Asia underwent Indianization. Indian culture became powerfully adopted throughout mainland Southeast Asia, and importantly in the history of Siam significantly informed Khmer Empire (today's Cambodia) royalty warfare and statecraft, much of which would be adopted by Siamese kings to the West. Royal, court and State culture was Indianized, bearing qualities (language, social forms, knowledges) which were not shared by the common populace. The Indianization of Southeast Asia has been culturally compared to the Roman Empire's Romanization in of Europe. And to this day Thai Royalty, its Brahmin customs and practices, the common worship of Hindu gods within a Buddhist context reflects this 1,500 years of influence of Indian culture. This is to say, when comparing Thailand's Muay Thai to the West via the game of Chess, we are speaking of a game that was of Indian and Persian origin, something quite closely braided within Siamese history. For instance, King Narai of Ayutthaya in 17th century had 200 Persian warriors as his personal guard. The influence of India and Persia is profound. What I want you to see is that Muay Thai's historical past is likely quite imbricated. There are layers upon layers of historical segmentation. Within this history the Royal form in particular had a distinctly Indianized history, and Thailand's Muay Thai has had a robust Royal history surrounding the raising of armies, large scale wars at times with armies (perhaps fancifully) rumored to approach 1,000,000 men. This Statecraft heritage is likely something we can see reflected in the game of Chess itself, the game of Kings, castles and queens. And, the history that we have of Thailand's Muay Thai is almost entirely composed of this Royal-State story, as royal record and foreign visitors to Siam's kingdoms comprises our written history. The possible story of Muay Thai that involves provincial, rural, village, regional martial and sport practices has vanished seemingly just as much as houses of wood or bamboo will not be preserved. Yet, in the nature of Southeast Asian and Siamese fighting arts we very well may see the martial contrastive martial logic of the Siamese people, especially when compared to the visions of the West. Chess, Go, Striated and Smooth Spaces In this we turn to the 4,000 year old Chinese and then Japanese game of Go (the game of surrounding). wikipedia: Japanese word igo (囲碁; いご), which derives from earlier wigo (ゐご), in turn from Middle Chinese ɦʉi gi (圍棋, Mandarin: wéiqí, lit. 'encirclement board game' or 'board game of surrounding'). I have written about the historical origins of Thailand's Muay Thai that particularly bring out its logic of surrounding and capture, a martial logic that is quite embodied in the game of Go (The Historical Foundations of Thailand's Retreating Style, or How They Became the Best Defensive Fighters In the World). In short, historians of Southeast Asia point out that unlike in Europe where land was scarce (and therefore the anchor of wealth), and manpower plentiful, conquering land and killing occupying enemies formed a basic martial logic in warfare. In Southeast Asia where fecund land was everywhere, but population sparse (especially in Siam which had been one of the least populated regions of Southasia), warfare was focused on capture and enslavement. Enemy land capture was at a minimum, and even in the case of the famed and ruinous sackings of the Siamese Capital of Ayutthaya by the Burmese, the captured territory was not held. These are just very different spatial and aim-oriented logics, in fact opposite logics. I'm using the game of Go, which expresses a fluid rationality of edge control and reversible enemy capture (captured stones add to your wealth, and don't only subtract from one's enemy), opposed to the more centric, land-control logic of Chess. A Chess of Indian-Persian statecraft which resonated with European political and warfare realities. This juxtaposition between games is not mine, though I'm probably the first to use it to illuminate combat sport perceptions in today's ring fighting. It comes from the sociologically oriented philosophers Deleuze and Guattari in their book A Thousand Plateaus: Capitalism and Schizophrenia. A notoriously difficult work due to its heavy reliance on invented vocabularies, and its opaque, keyed-in references to specific philosophical traditions, psychoanalysis and their theoretical problems, it still provides rich analysis of buried trends in Western social organization, and a metaphysics for thinking about the history of the world as a whole. What Deleuze and Guattari want to do in contrasting Go with Chess is to think about the different ways that Space is organized and traversed by political powers and regimes of meaning. They propose that Chess is a striated (divided, segmented, hierarchical) Space, And Go more of a smooth space. This blogged description is a good summary of the two kinds of Space: The much older game of Go is a strategy of surround and capture, wherein you turn an enemy's wealth - by our analogy labor-power - into your own. This is mirrored in Siamese warfare as reported in 1688 by an Iranian vistor, "...the struggle is wholly confined to trickery and deception. They have no intention of killing each other or of inflicting any great slaughter because if a general gained a real conquest, he would be shedding his own blood so to speak" (context, Ibrahim), full quote here. We have at surface a strong homology between foreign reports and the structural nature of the game of Go. More can be understood of my position and the role of evasion, surround-and-capture principles in this extended thread here. Diving down into the more philosophical ramifications I provide the extended Deleuze & Guattari quotation comparing the game of Chess vs the game of Go: Rather, he is like a pure and immeasurable multiplicity, the pack, an irruption of the ephemeral and the power of metamorphosis. He unties the bond just as he betrays the pact. He brings a furor to bear against sovereignty, a celerity against gravity, secrecy against the public, a power (puissance) against sovereignty, a machine against the apparatus. He bears witness to another kind of justice, one of incomprehensible cruelty at times, but at others of unequaled pity as well (because he unties bonds.. .). He bears witness, above all, to other relations with women, with animals, because he sees all things in relations of becoming, rather than implementing binary distributions between "states": a veritable becoming-animal of the warrior, a becoming-woman, which lies outside. Let us take a limited example and compare the war machine and the State apparatus in the context of the theory of games. Let us take chess and Go, from the standpoint of the game pieces, the relations between the pieces and the space involved. Chess is a game of State, or of the court: the emperor of China played it. Chess pieces are coded; they have an internal nature and intrinsic properties from which their movements, situations, and confrontations derive. They have qualities; a knight remains a knight, a pawn a pawn, a bishop a bishop. Each is like a subject of the statement endowed with a relative power, and these relative powers combine in a subject of enunciation, that is, the chess player or the game's form of interiority. Go pieces, in contrast, are pellets, disks, simple arithmetic units, and have only an anonymous, collective, or third-person function: Thus the relations are very different in the two cases. Within their milieu of interiority, chess pieces entertain biunivocal relations with one another, and with the adversary's pieces: their functioning is structural. On the other hand, a Go piece has only a milieu of exteriority, or extrinsic relations with nebulas or constellations, according to which it fulfills functions of insertion or situation, such as bordering, encircling, shattering. All by itself, a Go piece can destroy an entire constellation synchronically; a chess piece cannot (or can do so diachronically only). Chess is indeed a war, but an institutionalized, regulated, coded war, with a front, a rear, battles. But what is proper to Go is war without battle lines, with neither confrontation nor retreat, without battles even: pure strategy, whereas chess is a semiology. Finally, the space is not at all the same: in chess, it is a question of arranging a closed space for oneself, thus of going from one point to another, of occupying the maximum number of squares with the minimum number of pieces. In Go, it is a question of arraying oneself in an open space, of holding space, of maintaining the possibility of springing up at any point: the movement is not from one point to another, but becomes perpetual, without aim or destination, with out departure or arrival. The "smooth" space of Go, as against the "striated" space of chess. The nomos of Go against the State of chess, nomos against polis. The difference is that chess codes and decodes space, whereas Go proceeds altogether differently, territorializing or deterritorializing it (make the outside a territory in space; consolidate that territory by the construction of a second, adjacent territory; deterritorialize the enemy by shattering his territory from within; deterritorialize oneself by renouncing, by going elsewhere . ..). Another justice, another movement, another space-time. Deleuze & Guattari, "1227: TREATISE ON NOMADOLOGY—THE WAR MACHINE", A Thousand Plateaus: Capitalism & Schizophrenia   Becoming and A Warfare of Capture What Deleuze and Guattari are invoking is a conception of warfare which is much more fully potentiated. Not locked into rigid hierarchies and roles of figures of power, it is a much more metaphysical battle that reflects aspects of what I have argued is the spiritual foundation of Thailand's Muay Thai, an animism of powers within the history of the culture that predates the arrival of Buddhism (Toward a Theory of the Spirituality of Thailand's Muay Thai). This logic of an animism of powers contains an essential aspect of captured power, the incorporated power of a captured enemy, founded on what historians of Southeast Asia have called "Soul Stuff", roughly equivalent of Hindu shakti (strength). This can be manifested in captured slave labor, or perhaps even in the prehistoric rites of cannibalism through which one consumed the soul stuff of an enemy. You can find a logic of Soul Stuff here, this graphic below helps represent the animism of contest. A primary source on soul stuff and a fusion of military and spiritual prowess can be found with historian O.W. Walters here. Thus, within the cultural origins of Siamese culture, even that which pre-dates the Indianization of the region, we have essential aspects of a smooth, tactical space in a Deleuze & Guattari sense, which potentially maps quite well into the game of Go, especially as it is contrasted to Chess.   Further in concordance with Deleuze & Guattari's philosophical concept of liberty is the way in which Thailand's Muay Thai can be understood as revolutionary in their terms. Deleuze & Guattari write of becoming-animal, becoming-child, becoming-woman, deterritorializing flights inimitable to human freedom. Thailand's Muay Thai (& broader Thai agonism) de-privileges these categories, along a continuous spectrum of thymotic struggle, which runs thru the social hierarchies of low to high, sewing them together. One could say a smooth thymotic space of trajectories. Thailand known for its (ethically criticized) child fighting, women have fought for 100+ yrs, and beetle fighting embodies much of the Muay Thai gambled form. In many important ways Thailand's Muay Thai avoids the stacked arboreal structure of Western Man (& its contrastive Others), favoring a continuity agonistic spectrum within its (Indianized) hierarchies. It has strongly weighted traditional hierarchies, but within this a thymotic line-of-becoming that runs between divinity and animality. see Beetle Fighting, Muay Thai and the Health of the Culture of Thailand - The Ecology of Fighting more on the division of divinity and animality by wicha here: Muay Thai Seen as a Rite: Sacrifice, Combat Sports, Loser as Sacred Victim Knowing-as-doing, the wicha of technical knowledge of how to do, runs between the axes of divinity and animality in a way that supports a mutuality of any figure's becoming, from the insect up to the heightened champion fighter, in a line of flight shared by others. Most Deleuzian becoming-animal, -child, -woman examples come from the arts (sometimes the bedroom), but instead in Thai, gambled agonism we have the becoming of actual animals, children, women & the projective affects of an equally agonistic audience undergoing its own becoming-as. When I say revolutionary, I say "Thailand's Muay Thai has something to teach the world about the nature of violence and its meaning." Learning From Chess in How to See Thailand's Muay Thai Keep in mind, this isn't an direct one-for-one comparison of the contemporary game of Chess (and Chess Theory) and the ring sport of Muay Thai. It compares the dominant image of thought in the conceptual trend. Some have pointed out that my gross picture of Chess leaves out its post-1920s modern Chess Theory development, which often eschews central forward advancement. What is important in the Chess example isn't how Chess was played in 1960s, say, but rather that Chess over the sweep of its history allows us to see how it expressed the martial logic from which it came, ie, how some battles were fought in the field, with advancing lines, and a central capture of territory focus. Chess I would argue contains a martial logic fingerprint in its organizational structure, just as the real life political powers of Kings, Queens, knights and bishops made their impact on its rules & formation, the increased power of the Queen on the board said to be a fine example of this (see: A Queen in Any Other Language). Even in the Hypermodernism of Chess one might say that the center still holds importance, as there are just other ways of controlling or managing it.  Hypermodernism for instance may have reflected the increased use of cannon & then WW1 artillery. Between the two games of Chess and Go are differing Martial Logics. It doesn't mean that there is zero fighting for the center in Muay Thai (or in Southeast Asian warfare...siege warfare is prominent in Ayutthaya history for instance, though with influence from the Portuguese, etc), or that there is zero edge or flank control in Western European warfare or Chess (flank maneuvers are numerous in European warfare). The contrast is really meant to exposed how we perceive conflict spatially, and that these are things we've culturally inherited. You see these inherited concepts, for instance the centrality of territory capture in common Western scoring criteria like "ring control". Centralized conflict is part of our past and informs how we judge fighting styles, just as edge conflict is part of Southeast Asia's past. And importantly this also informs our ideas of violence, with a European tendency toward "kill" (to control land, ie the center) and a SEA tendency toward "capture"(to control labor, ie the edge).  
    • Hey so im an ammateur fighting in europe mostly at DIY events. The thing is even though every fight I improve I am never able to win and its starting to get to me.  I have 5 fights in total 2 k1 and 3 muay thai and iv never won a muay thai, won 1 k1 cos my cardio was better than the other girl and I just out brawld her.  People say wow your technique is so much better than the fight I saw you in last year etc but it still feels bitter to constantly lose. I know i am improving but feel that I always just get tougher and tougher matches, the last 3 fights I lost have all been very close fights. One I lost cos my opponent got injured and broke her ankle when I bloked with a knee but she was able to hide it, another one I lost cos she was using more clean techniques and I was brawling (this one I agree with 100% cos I was landing but it was sloppy.)  The last one I lost cos my cardio was bad which is also fine. I am fine with losing, its just starting to get to me that I never win. It also kinda annoys me that the only fight I ever won was one that I just outbrawled the other girl. Feels like my improvements havnt really helped me cos I just get matched with tougher and tougher opponents each time.  Im wondering if I should give up on decision fights for a while and just do non decisions to get my condifence back up or whether I will eventually break through and be able to win. I am also kinda old at 32 so even though my technique is improving my strength, reflexes and reactions will begin to fade soon. 
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