Sylvie von Duuglas-Ittu

I would caution you against taking this to mean that the trainers are "setting the fighter up," as well as against interpreting this as no big deal. It's kind of in the middle. But as Tyler points out, not terribly uncommon (or at least not unheard of), but also gambling is so complex. I also second Kevin's notes that by and large fights are set up with the interest of the camp's own fighter having advantages. I train at two gyms and fight out of both. This is great for me in some ways and highly problematic in others. It deserves a blog post and I'll get there. But the point is that one of my gyms kind of shit-talks the other and my trainer there tries to "expose" the other gym by telling me that they bet against me. To be clear, there's no single bet from the gym - there are multiple bets at all times. So, not only are multiple players from one gym placing different bets, but a single player may place bets on both sides or on multiple outcomes. Just the simple statement "they bet against you," feels shitty. But I don't really care. I'd rather have someone on my side bet against me than try to get me to pretend to lose the first two rounds (I'm asked this a lot), or to try to make arrangements for the outcome of a fight with my opponent (this happened once up north and I refused to play along, telling my trainer I'd rather he just bet against me than try to "arrange" within a fight). And for this particular example that my one trainer was using to accuse my other gym, there was a big side-bet on my fight but my opponent suddenly refused to make weight. So there was still money on me, but money also went to other options because now the fight wasn't as it was supposed to be. They agreed to put x-Baht on the fight if we weighed in the same but maybe they don't believe I can win as easily when my opponent shows up heavier; so they have some money riding on me but also put money on the odds so that if I lose it's not so much of a deficit from the overall bet. I'm okay with that and I get it. Further, even if a person from my camp did just straight up bet against me, I'd consider it a bad bet - he can lose money and learn to bet on me that way. All that said, as long as your gym isn't setting up bad matches in order to bet against their fighters and make money, I'd say it's something you can dismiss as a difference in business. If they're feeding their fighters into bad matches, bet or no bet, it's a shitty practice.

This discussion is so awesome. I wish I could full quote so much of this, but then you'd all just be reading the thread again. Freddy and Darina, the "it's not about fitness, it's about heart and mentality," that's so much what I intuit. I find it so strange that these very tenuous studies come around every few years and everyone jumps on board because it's science, but very few actually look into it. Gavin makes a great point about the tendonitis in his elbow, how that is a fact in terms of physical pain and experience (I'm not claiming that people don't really feel the symptoms we collectively attribute to "overtraining"), but it can be interpreted as "under recovery," or even just "under conditioned." Taking a week off may not help as much as training around the injury and gently rehabilitating the elbow. I was thinking about "stress." It's the catalyst for a myriad physical and emotional symptoms that many of us experience. It can exacerbate heart disease, weight gain or loss, Depression, ulcers, insomnia, etc., etc. So the advice by doctors is "reduce stress." But the thing is, stress is a response to things that are, for you personally, stressors. Maybe my job stresses me out, but I have to keep working, so I just have to find ways to be less stressed by work - I can't quit. And, having worked stressful jobs, I can attest that while were all "working for the weekend" so to speak, very very few people come back to work on Monday saying, "wow, that weekend really invigorated me and I'm totally happy to be here now." Days off can be revitalizing, but they can also just be your escape from what you don't like doing in your job or the people you work with. I think "Overtraining" is like this. It's not the physical stress, it's the mental and emotional stress of how the physical is interpreted. The problem I have with the popularity of this overtraining concept is that it can hold people back. If you're happy training on days you feel good and resting on days you don't, do it. But if you're afraid of this overtraining Bogeyman, I'm just saying you know more about your own limits than Google does; and you don't have to accept them. There are hard limits - people who aren't as able-bodied as others have very real physical limitations, but you'd be amazed at how they can be worked around. I get upset when people tell each other they can't do things. It pisses me off, actually. I listened to this much recommended podcast while running a few months back and it really stuck with me. "How to Become Batman" by Invisibilia. Through "clicking," blind people can use a kind of echo-location (like bats) to locate themselves in their surroundings and move more freely, more independently. By all accounts of scientific studies of the folks who are adroit in this method, these blind people can actually see. Not metaphorically; they can see. There's a part in here that I think is directly applicable to the discussion of overtraining, and that's when they say that telling a blind kid that s/he can't do something is a huge detriment. Simply not being told, not even telling them that they can, but just not saying, "you can't," allows for greater possibilities. Like, for example, making sight possible. (podcast hyperlinked with the title.)

I can see that combo - it loops right back into itself.

The WMC gym that Micc mentions is one I've heard great things about as well, especially from the women I know who have trained there. But gyms go through phases and can change a lot over time, so you'd want to talk to someone who has been there very recently or is currently there now. Micc and Emma's advice to be close to a holiday area is a great idea. I've heard good things about Diamond Muay Thai on Koh Pan Ngam but I don't know much about their match ups or fight options on the island. A few things that will have a big influence on your goals of fighting are: 1) your weight; if you're 60+ kg (for you) and 70+ (your BF) the options for opponents is less likely to be an "even match" in terms of how we see them in the west. You'd either get a smaller opponent who is more experienced, or you'll be matched against another westerner and perhaps not have a lot of opportunities to fight. 2) gambling on fights. If you fight someone bigger than yourself, you're more likely to get an opponent who thinks they can beat you and will take the fight seriously. A smaller opponent will be less inclined to "go 80%" if there's money on the fight, which can be in the form of a side-bet, which is each side putting in an equal amount and the winner takes all. 3) the third factor, and you should do this anyway, is to tell your trainers you want hard fights and difficult opponents. There might be an assumption that westerners want easy fights or that winning is "good for business," but if you let them know you want a challenge they'll probably give it to you. And then when you do well, they'll be more happy to bet on you. But it's hard to know what "fighting frequently" means because the possibilities are different depending on your location, your size, opportunities at any given gym or season, and opponents. More "tourist" areas will actually have more fights because stadium fighting is, in fact, part of the tourist industry as the selling of tickets is how money is made. So going to the boondocks for training means fewer fights close by. There are festival fights and all gyms that are remote will travel to cities for fights in the stadium, but probably not "frequently."

It just so happened that my (in)famous Overtraining post was automatically retweeted and conversation in comments started. I've always thought that it would be best if a conversation could be had over my article and about Overtraining in general, as it seems that what I've written has both inspired people, but also made others feel bad or criticized (which was not my intention). If we can all talk about our experiences, and also some of the evidence and ways of describing things, then at the very least we are getting somewhere. For those who have not read it, this is my original article: The Myth of Overtraining: Endurance, Physical and Mental for Muay Thai And these are all the articles I've written on the subject: Archive of Articles: Overtraining This is the comment thread from today: Gabriel: "My takeaway is that running and MT are not the same. Through running I have overtrained, resulting in injury, decreased immunity, and disrupted sleep patterns. CNS overtraining is also a thing. I run barefoot for long distanCes up and down terrain, often off road. I am also a big guy. Sylvie is small so endurance events won’t be as hard on her body. This whole piece seems rife with braggadacio. Just a log essay on how much tougher you are than the men who come through your gym." My Response: "Hi Gabriel, It’s unfortunate that you feel that a 12,000 word essay full of illustrative examples, some research into the history of Overtraining diagnosis, citations of extraordinary achievement by others and fight specific application is nothing more than me bragging on “toughness”. I really don’t think it’s about toughness at all, but rather that many very well intentioned, and probably quite “tough” people have a framework when thinking about their body and limitations that undermines them. They are taught to expect failure (the failure of their bodies) and when they experience failure they become very easily convinced that they have hit the wall that they have heard about, and maybe even experienced many times. They are stopped. This article has been controversial, especially among those like you who feel convinced that they have experienced overtraining, so this reply goes beyond your comment and speaks to some larger issues too. As I’ve repeatedly said, this discussion isn’t about the experiences, it’s about the diagnosis, including diagnoses that speak to injury. Personally I am injured less, even as a very active fighter, when I train at my upper limits. It doesn’t mean I don’t get hurt, banged, dinged and am not regularly in pain, in fact I do and am. But I am never incapacitated, despite fighting 100 times in 3 years and training at an intense rate. It is my belief that my training (and my fighting) has hardened me, made me more resilient not only mentally but physically as well. Injury discussion is an interesting and important one though – one probably looked at on a case by case basis. But in so far as you have agreed that it is very likely that Muay Thai and long distance running are quite different, then perhaps you’ve taken more from my article than a laundry list of my toughness, because this was one of my points. Even if Overtraining is a real diagnosis, the application of its invention/discovery in ultrarunning to Muay Thai and other fighting arts is simply unfounded and unproven – weightlifting is another category of application that could be wrongly connected. And yes, as a small bodied person indeed I may be less affected than large bodied people, very true. I’ve also been told that it might be genetics, or even many other factors, but this does not mean that my own experiences of my mental limits, and resistance to the repeated admonition that I’m overtaining by various experts (both Thai and Western) are not of value to others seeking to overcome where they are at when they encounter similar barriers. My references to so many (men, but also women) who have come through my gyms have been really about detailing the kinds of thinking that will undermine you, even though you are very serious. It’s best to talk about specific examples not only because I need to qualify my position through what I have experienced and witnessed, but also so that people may recognize themselves in them. I really wrote this article, and others, for particular people. It’s for people who want to do MORE. If you are someone who wants to do more, I’m telling you you can. It might be a little more, it might be plateaus and plateaus beyond what you can even imagine. I’m frankly tired of people who make it their business to regularly tell people they can’t, they shouldn’t, they won’t. We have enough of those in the world. I believe in the Dan Gable adage, “More is More”. Gabriel: I agree many people undertrain but overtraining is a thing regularly experienced by lots of athletes who often train many days a week. You are small and slight which I believe lessens your chance of overtraining. Running 10k for you is not the same experience as someone who weighs 80 kilos. For the latter much more tissue is damaged. As for CNS overtraining in my experie ce the effects are a accute and occur after sprints, agility training, and plyometric type movements. If you go train wind sprints every day, at 100 percent effort, you will be overtrained. Try it. I’m talking maximal effort here. But I running in general is more strenuous than MT, I believe. The nature of gravity deems it so. The stress of landing on runs, particularly off road and without padded shoes, causes more tissue damage than hitting a heavy bag and sparring. Thai fighters are incredible in their ability to fight so many times but in the higher weight classes that ability is diminished. Again, your experiences as a small light fighter are very different from the experiences of a heavier person. So different that I doubt your ability to extrapolate. I include Gabriel's comments here because they no doubt reflect what a lot of people think and feel. I realize that this is a very charged topic. They are hopefully a launch point. Not only do people have very real, and sometimes traumatic experiences of breaking down, and others feel very attached to some of the terminology and science-like renditions of what is supposedly happening to the body. I'm no expert, though I have read pretty deeply into the literature and arguments on both sides, some of which I put into the article. At the very least we can say that there is no definitive position of "truth" in this, and as athletes we are forced with finding a way forward in the context of the debate. All that I am doing here is sharing with you my own perspective, arrived at through some reading, but mostly which I have raised by pushing myself past real barriers to find out what was on the other side. I've also observed incredible feats by athletes whose bodies are very different from mine in countless ways, but are similarly pushed beyond what is deemed "impossible." I'd like to know from you all what your experiences and thoughts are about Overtraining. Remember, keep it civil; an athlete's experience of their body is a highly personal thing, and anything we say that challenges that risks attacking the person themselves, which is not the point nor the gain. Also, to keep on track of what I'm trying to say here it may be worth reading my followup article: Endurance is a Skill: The Practice of Belief and Fatigue in Overtraining

I was able to perform my Ram Muay for a handful of fights in the US before the promotion basically said that only pro's could perform one due to time constraints. And nobody else on the shows performed one,including pro's, so it wasn't really saving so much time as just omitting the tradition all together. In Thailand they'll sometimes tell you to hurry it up if the event is televised. I can see how in the west, if there's no context given to the performance, it can be tedious or misunderstood. But informing the audience rather than simply omitting it feels better. I do laugh and sympathize with Kelly's comment as well though, that a 6 min Ram Muay for a 3 round fight in full gear feels a bit silly, but only because so much of Muay Thai is already missing from the modified, amateur rules. That said, you shouldn't have to be pro to pay respect to the traditions. There should be some kind of compromise.

I don't believe that interim belts are kept - barely any belts are actually given here, you almost always have to have a copy made. But I don't reckon they're ever defended... it's interim.

This is awesome Gavin. I went to Sitmonchai Gym today to meet Kelly Creegan ("It's Pandamonium") in person, interview her, and in the process have a training session at her gym. It's always a little awkward to work with different padholders, the first time around, because you're getting used to each other. But it's also really cool because they don't know you and so they can't help but suss out your weaknesses, strengths, and push you toward their own leanings. So I got to learn a new hook today. Worked on left body hook to right leg kick. Right cross to the body, left hook to the head. Stepping forward on hooking punches rather than to the side (that as hard, but so much power!) Maybe when you're feeling like you need a little support you can let us know and we can all pledge to do "Gavin's workout" for the day, albeit even if we are doing it on different days of the week due to schedules. Kind of take part in your hours with you, so to speak. It would be meaningful to me, personally, to be with you in this goal.

I still get this all the time with myself. I've reasoned for myself that it's all about relaxation. You can learn and execute on a bag or with no pressure and it's no problem, but under pressure it's much harder to access those things that you have learned. Doesn't mean you don't know them, just means you can't get to them under pressure... yet. It's like learning a new language. You can sit in your room and practice, you can repeat after tapes, you can watch movies. But actually talking with people in the real world, on the fly, when there's already a misunderstanding and you're trying to make yourself clear - all of that pressure makes your access to the language limited. Then you get away from the pressure and think, "why didn't I just say this." Same with techniques. Micc's approach to breathing and visualizing for relaxation is great. I need to do that more. And Arrow is dead on from what I've experienced, too, in that when you're tired you just do what you know best, which is muscle memory. Even if it's not what you want to do. What I do - and keep in mind I'm crazy, but I think it's a great way to do it - is to get myself really tired on purpose and then try to access the techniques or responses I want in that mode. You'll fail a lot. But that's okay. You're teaching yourself how to access that stuff when you're tired, making it what you know in those pressure moments. I also fight a lot because I want to be able to calm down and relax in fights. Other people get a lot of sparring practice and so they learn it that way, rather than in fights, necessarily. But you have to consciously practice it. The first step to that is changing your mindset from "what's wrong with me?" to "this is exactly where I want to be to strengthen these skills and grow these techniques." Being tired is great! It just doesn't feel great, so you have to get your mind right to keep it fertile when nothing is going to feel good. It'll feel good afterwards.

How did you cut your foot?! Good advice, it is like a tattoo. What's the reason for avoiding fatty and oily food? Is it to keep your skin dry or is it for your immune system?

Duct tape really does do everything. At what stage of healing do you start doing this and for how many nights/week, how long do you keep doing it, etc?

Yeah, I've read some "soaking in horse urine" stuff (knuckles, not the face) that I'm not a) willing nor b) able to try. Horse urine is harder to come by off the farm.

You approached this and executed your arguments very fairly, Emma. You always have a very even way of presenting things, so I wasn't surprised, but just really enjoyed your exploration of the problems while still allowing us as readers to believe we can get to something or somewhere better. It seems that the "world title" doesn't mean much, other than when those two words are put together people who might not know (or care) anything about the sport will have an image of importance. But there's no reason the reality shouldn't carry the weight that the connotation suggestions. In the end it's a money-maker for the hosts and an exciting adventure and perceived accomplishment for those who participate. Like everyone getting a medal for completing the Disney Marathon - you ran the race, so there is something to it. But giving half the participants "world records" as titles for their time doesn't mean what it could, or maybe should. Or at least it should be recognized more readily and widely for what it already is. Which stands for all titles. The growing number of sanctioning bodies means a growing number of titles and a diluting of codified meaning between them. And even the big, long-established groups like the WPMF and WMC do some dodgy business with vacating titles and creating weird weight classes or interim titles. It's very difficult because I don't believe fighters are ever coming at it from a disingenuous place, but there's so little understanding within and across organizations that it's hard to support the objective meaning of the accomplishment while still wanting to support the subjective feeling that participants have in the accomplishment.

Kevin is pretty unbelievable. I hear from women whose husbands or partners aren't really supportive so much as tolerant, and then sometimes not even that and it breaks my heart. It breaks their hearts, too, really. That reality helps me to not only understand but appreciate why so many women are married to their coaches or managers or trainers, someone whose job as both partner and their actual job is to advocate for their wife. It's very cool to see this guy be so in awe of his wife and her commitment, and to be taking on the caregiver role to support her!

I love when the boys borrow my Mongkol, because it feels like a by-proxy acceptance. Lotus' father once pointed to the takrut amulet that's scrolled inside the "tail" and nodded his approval, saying "good!" This might feel especially meaningful to me because I've been present with men who won't let women touch the Mongkol.. not my gym, not to me, but right there in front of me. Phetjee Jaa put my Mongkol on for a fight once. It was amazing. Maybe similar to the goodness of women doing these ceremonial things for each other. Lately the guys taking care of me for fights have been hiring young women to do my massage and cornerwork. I think the massage is just because it's improper for men to do it and they get all nervous over it, but for the cornering I quite like having them there - I just feel badly for how cumbersome it is for them to crawl under the bottom rope in their nice jeans :( And yes, Germans have the best words. One you might like is Morgenmuffel, which is someone who is grumpy in the morning, but a much funnier pronunciation than the actual explanation. Fremdschämen is also great, in that it finally gives a word to when you feel ashamed for other people... I know that feeling, thank you, Germany!

So, I cut pretty easily and as a result have received a large number of stitches in my head over my (now) 116 fight career. I'm okay with that, it's part of my experience of being a fighter and it's a consequence of my style. But the scar tissue from cuts, unlike a broken bone that heals back stronger, is actually more prone to break again. Not "yay". I'm wondering if anyone has any personal experience, old wives tales, stuff their crazy farmer grandfather did, etc. regarding sutures, cuts, scars, etc. In terms of healing and reducing visible scars: aloe vera is awesome, vitamin E works, and silicon treatments (usually patches or you paint them on) seem to be good for keloid tissue, as is the product Hirudoid. Number one trick for reducing visibility: keep your scar out of sunlight and use SPF 50 any time you venture out. What about skin toughening? In Thailand they put hot water on fighting chicken's faces to make the skin harder to scratch open. Old school boxers apparently washed their faces with vinegar and I have no idea if this did anything other than feel real manly and smell pretty unpleasant. Anyone know about these or others? And sutures: if you get them, try to keep them dry as much as possible. If you can't stay away from training, you can put Vaseline over the lot of them while you train so the sweat and dirt stays out, then wash carefully afterward. In parts of your face that don't move much, like your hairline, 5 days is pretty solid before you can take them out. If it's on an eyebrow, or some part of your face that moves, leave them for a little longer. Attitude in Thailand is that you shouldn't fight for around 21 days (3 weeks) after the stitches come out to allow the wound to get strong. This "rule" is broken all the time though. My gyms never let me clinch with the stitches still in, but pads, bagwork, shadow, and a little sparring (with care and obviously not impacting the sutures) is all permitted. Anyone? Doctors? Esthetitians? Dermatologists? Coaches? Moms? Folks who have had stitches?

Not at all! This is great news. I'd love to put the forum on more solid footing, and that members want to help put it there is exciting. In the next few days I should know more about what is possible. I'd love for this forum to be the best it can be.

Okay, first time seeing the word "gagglepuke" and I am stealing it, so hard. Tiger tried to open a gym up in Mae Rim and that fiasco was hilarious to me because I'm a jerk. But it's probably a matter of time; and it will certainly transform Chaing Mai in much the same way :(

I am wary, mostly because there were a lot of harsh things said about me - which is ongoing - for even asking for support. The internet can be an abusive place. But then, that's part of what led me to want to create this place. I just want to be careful about how I frame community support and want the whole community to feel good about it, given the wide spectrum of views on the issue.

So sorry I've been off-line and couldn't get to this sooner. I arrived in Chiang Mai with serious pain and have been crashed for the last 18 hours. But I'm back! First of all, I am so happy that you all are vibing on this forum and I absolutely dream of it being a place where users feel it is theirs. Crowdsourcing support is a great way to do this, but it's somewhat complicated (and yes, a somewhat sensitive issue). A number of problems immediately present are these: 1) I need to confirm with my design guy that a change in server will actually improve upload time, significantly. 2) I'm very happy to set something up where members can support the site (financially) if they like, and as an "opt in" selection. The options available for member-supported service will have to be explored further; those you mentioned and what Lawrence uses look pretty good. 3) This is probably the biggest concern, which is that, once moved to an upgraded server, it then becomes an expensive site, and we become dependent on donations to maintain it. As Darina pointed out, situations and personal circumstances change over time. The solution of having multiple members offering support is a good safety-net, but for this reason we can't move the site until the support is there. Otherwise the forum could be at risk in the future, as there is the real possibility that I personally cannot afford to keep it up on an advanced server. As it stands, I can maintain it, but an upgrade requires the support of more people - which is being offered, which is great, but we have to proceed on secure footing. In any case, a quick fix isn't possible. I have to have my design guy clear a date on his calendar, as so far he's been donating a lot of the time put in for his technical support. I understand that it's frustrating to have the site be slow and, most likely, the more people on the site the slower it might be. But I do have to confirm with him that moving to an advanced server will, in fact, be a solution to the problem. I'll look into these different member-support options and talk with Deep and we'll move forward when the answers are clearer. Thank you all again for your willingness to support and for wanting to make the site better.

Gemma has a great blog on her experiences of over a year training and fighting on Phuket. She was at Sinbi and recently changed gyms to AKA. Phuket is an island and so it's no surprise you run into your old gym a lot, both on purpose and by accident. Here's Gemma's blog post on both the expected and unexpected of those circumstances, something many of us experience to varying degrees given the "small world" of Muay Thai both in Thailand and in the west: Moving on Without Moving "There is something to be said about changing gyms within a small province. In my imagination, at the very least, if you were to change gyms somewhere bigger, say in Bangkok, the pressures that come with the move might not be as noticeable – but again – I could be totally wrong having never lived in […]"

When I was living in the US, my gyms were an hour away in each direction and my work schedule was at a bar, so long hours but late at night which gave me time to train during the day. It was exhausting, for sure, but I loved training and didn't see or feel it as something I had to do but was instead my escape from the things I did have to do. I lived in the woods and wasn't social at all; I socialized at work but never stayed or spent time with people outside of working hours, so I wasn't having to juggle that part of it. But it was hard to find opportunities to train with other people. I only got sparring when I was able to make the scheduled classes of the gym I was invited to train with and I tried to keep my work schedule in line with making that time. But I'd find other people that I could meet up with in an empty gym and we'd just work together for an hour or so. If you can arrange to use the space with the owner or your coach and then find someone who can come work with you, it's an invaluable opportunity. Can your friends join you for runs or quick meals?

Good to see you here, Tyler! It's a semi-limited example because women are going under the rope publicly, whereas men are being asked to behave a certain way in the privacy of a bathroom stall. (There are still urinals, so I guess the issue of sitting to pee is only if you're using a toilet stall.) It would feel quite different for men (who feel that sitting to pee is a loaded issue) to have to carry this out publicly. But it also carries over to how women in this country have to self-police these behaviors, just as men in a bathroom stall would have to self-police the behavior of sitting. I never went in the men's ring at Lanna, even when I was the only one at the gym and nobody would know if I touched the ring or not. If I were alone at a temple where women weren't allowed in one section, I wouldn't sneak into that section, for example. Even though I think it's bogus.

Yeah, their ropes are really low at that gym, too! I lived in Berlin for maybe 8 months during my study abroad, Junior year of university. (I lived in Spandau.) Sitzpinkler isn't a thing outside of Germany that I know of, but the example came to mind as something that one culture simply doesn't think about (westerners who don't consider high/low in the Thai sense probably don't care that much about going under the rope, just as German men who don't have standing to pee being a signifier of manliness don't really care about sitting down to use the toilet), but in the context of the culture that gives meaning of that act, it's quite different. I put my hand on my husband's head, affectionately, while he was seated and I was standing at a fight once. The look of shock and the laughs and pointing that came from the men who witnessed it - a woman with her head above her husband's and her hand on his head to boot, was a real shock to them. Not offensive, but definitely a gaffe.

I've definitely seen those onigiri balls in the various anime I watch; they look awesome! I totally agree with not making too big a deal about it. I thought carb loading seemed so silly for 6-15 min of fighting but reckon if there was a weight cut it makes some sense... or, you know, just eat carbs again without "loading".