Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu
-
Posts
1,719 -
Joined
-
Days Won
420
Posts posted by Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu
-
-
There are many differences from a technique perspective, but one that sticks out is that your block has to be at a much more narrow angle in Thailand. Less experienced fighters tend to have more superfluous movement in their kick, so it tends not to be as direct. It seems this has caused fighters in the states to both use and instruct a wider and less condensed block.
Sylvie has been criticized by Thais for not opening her block up more, so this is a little ironic. But here is a short clip of Sifu Mcginnes, who happens to be a sometimes coach of Sylvie (he's a Karate guy), making fun of westerners for having such a wide block, something he attributes to westerners imagining that shin has to directly meet shin:
He and Dekkers take the conversation in a different direction, but it came to mind.
-
1
-
-
To your point about the balance>technique>power chain, I think you are spot on. Interestingly, BJJ in the US is taught more similarly to MT in Thailand in that the focus is always position over submission. Get good position first, then worry about your technique and finishing a submission (or striking on the ground if it's MMA). It is also one of the only martial arts where even the recreational students participate in live rounds regularly. The ratio of people actually "doing"Jiu Jitsu is much higher than the ratio of people actually "doing", rather than simply practicing, Muay Thai in the US. /tangent
This is just such an interesting point about BJJ. You are much closer to the world of MMA than I'll ever be, but it does seem to me that BJJ passion, and all the detailed "educated fan" knowledge was one of the things that really grounded the commercial expansion of MMA. While it was sold as brutal and ass-kicking, the BJJ fan made the whole thing science-y. You had to understand positions in order to really be a real fan. The attitudes toward BJJ seem to mirror the "real" love of Muay Thai. They are in some respects parallel. But because Thai Muay Thai is thought to be just "striking", it just devolved into kickboxing with a few "cool" techniques.
-
1
-
-
I've got nothin'! Even wrestling may be "ass back" prior to a shot, but employs a "hips in" strategy as a defense. Maybe there is a hip inflexibility piece to the puzzle? It's less comfortable to have the hip joint hyperextended as we westerners are notoriously tight and inflexible? Total shot in the dark.
Well, here is a theory I entertained a while ago. The squat toilet since childhood, and squatting in general as many Thais do/did to just relax and wait around, produces a lot of flexibility, and possibly a lot of technique that grew out of it. I wonder, as the western toilet spreads throughout Thailand if hip flexibility will just generally be reduced, and Thai technique may be changed. This has less to do with hips in, but your mention of the hips made me recall this chain of thought.
-
1
-
-
Here it seems like it's balance first, technique second, power last. Reverse that for the west.
That pretty much puts it in a nutshell.
-
In the west, there are many opponents with heavy punches but NOT many opponents who know how to knee effectively. There are even fewer who are clinch literate. Kicks may be fast but they aren't HEAVY, nor can you expect them to be without the hips properly engaged. It then becomes "more effective" to protect one's self from heavy punches rather than a skilled clinch and knee game *most* of the time.
This is an interesting point, and one I have to say that I haven't given enough weight. And from your description it sounds really accurate. The big bombs come more from above. But I remain convinced that there are real, substantive differences in how each culture views the body. Rabbit punches may win in the west, because anything to the head feels or looks damaging, in how the body is mapped. In Thailand it's the opposite. Sylvie has lost several fights to rapid rabbit knees, really quickly thrown knees in a row that might not even touch the body. They are almost symbolic strikes to the gut. Yes, they require some additional balance, and that is on display, but it's more than that. You'll see slow motion replays, for instance in a Channel 7 fight, of knees landing to the ribs. Not really something the west would select out from a round. I think the west sees the head as the center of the Self. It is not only its expressive self (the face), it holds the brain (what science tells us is our core self). Strikes are directed to the head, because the head is essentially us. In Thai body mapping - and this is my little theory - the essential Self is divided up. Yes, the symbolic self (face) is above, but the life force of the self is conceived to be more in the gut. Blows to the gut, or ribs, feel more directed to the opponent's life force. We still have this in our language, things like "gut check", or "gutting it out", or "that takes guts", but these are largely leftovers from a differing world view of the body and the Self. Ancient western cultures considered the spleen or liver as core centers of the life force of a person. I suspect that the big divide on how scoring is done, especially in how body kicks or knees are scored, has to do with this different sense of Self.
Now, if we say this is correct, then it makes sense that the Thais would also become more proficient at designing techniques to attack (and protect) that core Self, and a martial art meant to do so. The west is filled with head-hunting because the head is seen as the essential life force of a person culturally.
...I do find your notes really interesting though. How though would you explain the difficulty westerners have in putting their hips in during clinch? Sylvie's been doing this full time for a long time now, and even though she's gotten to a place of very balanced hips in clinch, driving the hips in is still very difficult for her to do, even though she knows that is an essential "safe" place in clinching. There has to be something going on there. Of course it's not just Sylvie, we've seen it over and over again, with trained and untrained westerners alike.
-
3
-
-
Ass-back is a huge western vs Thai difference that I think goes beyond any particular technique. The west has at least a few fighting styles that favor ass-back (or head forward) positions. The wrestler's hunch, and some styles of western boxing. This is a big difference, and it really plays out heavily in clinch where head-forward results in very easy throws or knees. I also feel like there are extra-circular reasons behind this. Culturally it is somewhat in the body image to pull the groin away in times of attack (for what seem like obvious reasons), but also that there is an element of modesty when in proximity. But hips-forward is a really important part or position in Muay Thai stances and Thai clinch, and there seems like there is a kind of "shyness" involved with the western body image/behavior that makes this much harder to access for western fighters.
-
3
-
-
175!
And how experienced are you? Asking just so I could look around and see how realistic fights might be for you.
-
1
-
-
I've taken a strong admiration for Muay Thai since I started my training summer of last year. I would love to continue and eventually fight; however, my military schedule just isn't working for me and my personal goals, so I'm getting out the end of this year. At first, I was considering taking my savings and rushing off to Thailand to find a camp and fight --- but I'm a 6'0 female and I doubt many Thai women would be my size anyway lol. Is there any advice on this? I really don't know where to start, but I have a strong compulsion to leave everything behind and start anew, start with doing something I enjoy for the rest of my life. So, is Thailand the best place for me to try and live and train, or are there other locations that would work and give me more options to fight?
What is your walk around weight, if you don't mind me asking?
-
Royal Thai Residence is I think 800 a night, and has a nice pool. They are a sponsor of the Thai boys at our gym Petchrungruang, so there is that connection (there is a Muay Thai discount). But we've known several people who have stayed there happily.
Our apartment building rents out daily rooms at 600 a night, I think.
Sorry this isn't super complete, just what I know. At least a place to start.
-
2
-
-
More on the "inherently deceptive" Thais:
Sumaree Sriuam, 29, who sells chicken noodles, was riding her motorbike near Bali Hai Pier, when she found a wallet on the ground.
The wallet contained three THB400,000 checks, THB29,822 cash, and credit cards belonging to a man named Wutthikorn Hanwutthisut.
Sumaree decided to bring the lost property to Muang Pattaya Police to help look for the owner.
“I just feel sorry for the owner,” Sumaree told Siamchon News. “I don’t want other people’s property, and I know they’d want it back.”
-
Maybe some have become a little too used to being the favored group in their own culture and can't handle *gasp* no longer being the majority.
Not to go too far into this, but there is another layer from my own experience and perceptions, if the thoughts are worthy to put out there. It seems that many of the western men who come to Thailand long term come because they already feel like outcasts, or unacknowledged to the degree that they hoped to be, in their OWN cultures. There is a wide spectrum on this, all kinds of reasons they did not sit well where they were in their own culture, but when they come to Thailand the seduction is the incredible sense of freedom they can feel here, at least in the beginning. They can more or less reinvent themselves (nobody knows them), their $$ go further, they are much richer than they were, and they can at times more easily access women of a beauty standard that they may not have at home (this can also apply to western women who can have their own syndrome of this, but that's another story), and the seeming non-judgmental nature of Thais (Thais do form very strong judgements but they just won't let you know about it) all speaks to a kind of wonderland of self-esteem and self-creating. This applies to older sex-pats, but also to fighters who find themselves doing hyper masculine things, like beating people up for a living...or being beat up. The thing of it is, if you come from your own culture where you already feel you aren't respected like you should be, and then find yourself in a kind of playland, it can be pretty jarring when you run up against the "you are farang" wall, and realize that you aren't embraced the way you thought or hoped. A lot of these more vocal older ex-pats already feel embittered along the line of acceptance. They can often come here to feel special in some way and resent it when it doesn't work out that way.
For us we never imagine that we could or would be taken as a "Thai". Why would we? We aren't Thai. Thais, to be very broad about it, seem to be very clannish (family-like extended groups) and sensitive to shifting alliances, and there are so many difficulties to be found within Thai social hierarchies, and within clans and friendships, things we don't see. This isn't "deceptive" in the sinful western sense, but it is...maybe cloistered is the best word. There are circles of trust, within circles of trust, to use a line from Meet the Parents. But a lot of the "Thais are so blah, blah, blah..." talk really seems to come from a combination of putting yourself in poor situations, and unrealistic ideas about how you should be appreciated or embraced.
-
4
-
-
Great - thank you for all this information. How about Santai vs. Hongthong for my primary Chiang Mai gym?
Maybe someone who has trained at Santai can hop on. My personal sense from afar is that the gym is VERY well liked by loyal, return fighters, but that it is something of a farang camp. And it has a reputation of teaching only a single style of Muay Thai (which some might prefer), changing people's kicks and techniques to suit that style. That isn't something I'd recommend given the richness and variety of technique available in Thailand. This would be perhaps in contrast with what we experienced at Hongthong when Sylvie did a private with Joe. Joe thought hard about how Sylvie fights (in advance, he had seen her fight) and how he could show her things that could really compliment and expand her already existing style. The private was more or less amazing (you can see the full hour of it on Patreon). But that degree of freedom or looseness of approach might not be for everyone. Also, if you are going to divide time between Kem (which is isolated), Hongthong makes more sense because Santai is pretty isolated too, there's a bit of a trek if you want reach Chiang Mai. This being said Hongthong is reportedly ready to move to a brand new location (they are keeping this under wraps) which sounds like it's going to be an enormous upgrade in terms of facilities. I'm not quite sure where that location will be (in/around Chiang Mai). They will probably have moved by the time you arrive, so maybe watch their Facebook page?
-
1
-
-
Thank you so much for this answer - it seems like a good way to have my cake and eat it too; fighting frequently while getting exposure to both city and rural environments, and more authentic hardcore training without putting myself out of my depth at the beginning. And it confirms what I suspected: that Chiang Mai is the place for me to be, for the frequency that I want to fight at.
And thank you for the Sangtiennoi suggestion, I'd read Sylvie's post but somehow it hadn't registered as an option...
Personally, the Kem/Hongthong split strikes me as the perfect contrast. Kem's gym is just spectacularly beautiful. There's a gorgeous valley vista right outside the practice ring, it's like an oasis up on a mountain, and the technique/training seems both rigorous and precise. But it is up in the middle of nowhere. Having been in both gyms they seem somehow complimentary. They do maybe frame a "best of both worlds" kind thing. The good thing about taking this kind of approach is that you get a real perspective for comparison, and maybe learn to appreciate each for what the other doesn't have. And, you may just decide after one cycle that you really like one more than the other. They are so much different worlds there won't be any political issues of changing or moving gyms, I would think, at least the first few times through.
Sangtiennoi's gym is different than Kem's. Kem's is really new, and built on beautiful grounds, anchored by the two stars Kem and Yodwicha. Sangtiennoi's gym is kind of an old fashioned kaimuay, attached to the family home, it feels old and worn (in a good way), and it is anchored by the Golden Age legend Santiennoi. It's the kind of gym that feels like it has had westerners in it for a long time, more than a decade, but it remains unchanged by that. It has it's Thai boys, a few star fighters or long term westerners, and just goes on the same clock, year after year. With Kem you have incredible surroundings and really sharp, drill Sargent instruction. Sangtiennoi's gym seems to be on the old, Thai clock of a traditional camp. I'm not sure which gym would be better for women, though I do know female fighters who repeatedly returned to each gym. What it may come down to is that one is run by a 30+ year old former star, and one a 50+ year old former star. Both have really great padmen.
-
1
-
-
There really is no place in Thailand, in fact all the world, for women who want to fight and fight frequently, like Chiang Mai. If this is priority, it really has to be this.
But because you really are looking to move longer term how about shuttling between the two? I don't think not knowing Thai would be a problem at Kems. What might be cool is to spend a month at Kems, then go back over to Hongthong, taking with you all the training habits, and techniques you pick up over there and putting them to use in what may perhaps be a more casual environment. As a less experienced fighter the more "material" you give Joe Hongthong, the more he can work with it. You can train up and treat Kems something like a fight camp, and then come down to Hongthong and try to fight a couple of times, and then back up to Kems (if you liked it)? After a month at Kem's you might be ready to be back in the city a little too.
Just an idea.
An alternative to Kem's (which seems awesome in its own right) might also be Sangtiennoi's gym, another more hardcore, traditional gym, but with a nice inclusive feel.
-
2
-
-
Since it's right near two years later, wondered if anyone has noticed a change in their style and how they approach opponents/partners? Has time made you stronger or more confident in a certain style or has it changed for you? Just curious.
The two year mark is really interesting for Sylvie. About two years ago, if not a little more, Sylvie went into a very deep clinch game, Muay Khao style. This meant striking a lot less, fortifying herself against attacks when closing distance, and snuffing strikes, developing ways of entering clinch. But in the last few months she's started to really concentrate on relaxation which has opened up other modes of fighting for her, modes that are only starting to show themselves. This really came to a head a week ago when Karuhat, a legendary fighter who has cornered for her a few times, and who we film with, out of nowhere decided to turn Sylvie completely southpaw, because this would eliminate some fundamental technique flaws she's shown against some problematic opponents. This southpaw switch somehow really connected up with what she's been quietly working on, Nongki energy, more Karuhat like suddenness, and is creating a whole different series of style movements. I'm not sure what is going to come of this, but it is as if Sylvie's fortress style was a long and necessary phase she had to pass through before she could get to more relaxation, and a different part of her character. And only really the excellence of her opponents (certain elite fighters who can stay with Sylvie in clinch), and the increasing size of her opponents, which has pushed her to go beyond her very defined "style". It's pretty exciting times.
-
4
-
-
While I can understand that the nak muay life in Thailand is not as glamorous as it may initially seem, I agree that he goes too far in his generalisations. I guess he has a lot of built up frustration and is using his experiences to make sense of what happened to Jordan.
Also in his next post he compares himself, or rather declares himself a "migrant"/"immigrant" worker as a fighter:
I myself am an immigrant, a migrant worker who plies the trade of controlled violence.https://muaythaiadventurer.wordpress.com/2017/04/16/untitled-1/
To do this in the country of Thailand which has a serious immigrant worker issue, in particular how immigrant Burmese are treated and thought of is more or less insane in my book, and shows how detached from reality he is. No, fighting as a sponsored fighter in a resort/gym in Phuket, in the sunshine is not IN ANY meaningful WAY like the immigrant workers of Thailand. It's not that he "goes too far", it's that he lives, or at least writes, in a very disconnected way.
-
3
-
-
May want to use this hip stretch to mime the movement. Also making sure you step "outside" of the pad/pad, at an angle can improve kicks very quickly.
-
5
-
-
I found this article to be a little out of control. I guess he's had some run-in with less than awesome Thais, and I've never lived the Phuket Muay Thai lifestyle, but the generalizations about "Thais" really border on out-right racism.
...however my experiences with them have shown them as inherently deceptive.How would that sound? Blacks as inherently deceptive, Mexicans as inherently deceptive, Jews as inherently deceptive? Come on dude.
-
1
-
-
I'd love to see Amy and Loma fight. Clinch vs clinch with fighters who both use sweeps, trips and dumps.
Imo, Amy might win for other reasons (size advantage, crisp confident striking), but in the clinch it would be Loma. These kinds of trips Amy used work against people less familiar with clinch, those not raised with 1000s of hours of clinch where fundamental balance is established, whereas Loma's attack throws pretty much work against anyone. We'll see though, if Loma can throw Phetjee Jaa when they finally face, whenever that is, a fighter with a very firm base, that will be the proof of her throwing greatness.
-
1
-
-
There is a Google Map link in this post, it may have an address
http://8limbs.us/muay-thai-thailand/sangtiennoi-gym-tough-traditional-muay-thai-legend
-
I dunno man, Gilbert and Sullivan pulled it off:
When I wrote that I actually had in mind Mickey Rooney's character in Breakfast at Tiffany's, which is cut from the same cloth of Time:
Hey, I don't know how closely Mickey Rooney's character and the use of the term Osu are connected, but there do seem to be similarities. One could say that this too is "broadly exotic"...one in the mode of comedy, one in the mode of respect.
-
1
-
-
Amy Pirnie vs Dakota Ditcheva - Yokkao | March 25th, 2017
The Yokkao broadcast version of this fight will be up eventually, but until then, this edit of their stream. And below a cut up of Amy's dominant trips and sweeps from the fight:
I can't emphasize enough how impressed I am with Amy. Everything here is very advanced. Her control of space is like fighting on another plane, and her clinch has so much solid technique, it isn't even a fair fight at that distance. Props to Dakota who is making her way and on her own path as a fighter, but Amy has put the work in over the years and it really shows.
-
2
-
-
Duly schooled and corrected. I figured when I wrote my paragraph, you might have an excellent response and you did. Also I should say that it may not have been Kevin who was a pill about crowd-sourcing; by all accounts he is a generous guy and of course an exciting fighter. I just remember some douchey remark his coach made (in the context of many douchey remarks). Little protective here. Thank you.
Ha. No need to school you, you are school unto yourself, and I'm always glad to hear your perspective. I'm sorry I'm a little passionate about this stuff.
-
2
-
-
3-25b
...I should add. One of the most amazing things about Muay Thai that you discover when you spend a long time in Thailand is how mundane it is. It is not some exotic, delicate flower. It's living in 1000s of dusty, tiny gyms. In the minds of 1000s of two-bit fighters turned trainers. There isn't anything purist about it. It would be like being a purist about western boxing in the US in the 1950s. There is no "Muay Thai", there are just thousands and thousands of Muay Thai expressions. This doesn't mean that Muay Thai doesn't have definable characteristics, or that it isn't intimately "Thai", come right from the soil of Thai culture and belief. But there is nothing really to be purist about. It's an incredible every-day thing. It's like being a purist about how a newpaper is read in New York. Okay, there is the whole subway fold. There is the cafe lean back and flap of the pages. But it really is just rather mundane. Or, at least it strikes me that way. One really only becomes a purist of newspaper reading when people no longer read newspapers, seeking to preserve a lost thing, or it's a thing you are cut off from by time or distance. You can imagine former German exchange students arguing about real NYC newspaper reading back in Berlin. Muay Thai isn't really there, at least in Thailand.
In Thailand though of course there are ideological battles that surround Muay Thai, and how it portrays or demonstrates Thai history, and National character. These are different kinds of questions, questions important to Thais.
-
2
-
Leaving military, onto Thailand?
in Muay Thai Technique, Training and Fighting Questions
Posted
We asked Teresa Wintermyr who is at AKA in Phuket and she said that there is a girl there now who is 6'0" and about 80 kg so at least there is one woman your size. She doesn't fight much I think due to opportunity, but at least they have experience with her, which could help.