Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu
-
Posts
1,719 -
Joined
-
Days Won
420
Posts posted by Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu
-
-
I just wanted to relate to everyone part of a conversation we were having with Sifu McInnes in Pattaya when filming with him for the Library. I think the conversation will make the session cut, but I'm not sure. We were talking about the loss of the Golden Age techniques, something Sylvie and I talk about frequently. The part that she and I emphasize is that the great fighters of the Golden Age are no longer in the fight game. They find themselves outside of gyms, many of them no longer involved in Muay Thai at all. Not only are the techniques being lost, but the men of that age, their personalities, their knowledge depth, also are being lost. Sifu though had a different point. He has the perspective of someone who was super active in Lumpinee fighting in the Golden Age. He was close to Arjan Yodthong of Sityodtong, in fact Sifu says that he built his house next to the gym at the time, so close was their working relationship. He said for a decade he traveled the road to Lumpinee with Arjan Yodthong, week after week. His point though was not that the great fighters are no longer in Muay Thai, but that its the great coaches who made those fighters are no longer in Muay Thai. Of course Arjan Yodthong who made an incredible number of champions sadly passed away, but Sifu said that many others have died as well. In fact he challenged us to name a single legendary Muay Thai teacher who is still strongly connected to producing stadium fighters. We thought for a minute and could only come up with Arjan Surat of Dejrat Gym. But Sifu objected. Arjan Surat was a young man then, when the Golden Age was happening. That is not the generation he was referring to. It's the generation that was before. That was the generation which actually produced the legends of the Golden Age. And, as we both agreed, it is irrevocably lost because the entire system that made those great instructors, the Yodthongs of Thailand, is gone, the entire feeding system to Bangkok is heavily altered, radically changed. The quality of instruction, even at top Thai gyms, is no longer what it was in those days, Sifu claimed. He said that he would sit in Lumpinee with legendary coaches and they would just make money hand over fist following their bets. They could see which fighter was going, and in what round. He said that kind of knowledge, all the infinite perceptions are gone. It's a great session, so much in it technically, but that conversation will stay with me. With the Library we are trying to save the techniques, the Muay, and something of the men who fought so brilliantly in those decades, but Sifu reminded me that the ecological loss is even more than that. It's of the generation before them, the men of Muay Thai who were shapers of that greatness we all look back on.
Some stills from the session (you can follow my photography on Instagram)
-
3
-
-
That is very, very cool Pat. It must be amazing to connect with your heritage like that. And to do so much discovery and sleuthing. Do you know why he's depicted as Death, or a Ghost on horseback in that one cover? It's really stunning. Thanks for sharing the story here!
-
Silapathai was one of the great kicking fighters ever. You should watch his kick battle with Karuhat where he simply out kicks the wizard of style. We asked Karuhat "why did you just keep kicking with him?" and said "What else was I going to do?!"
He teaches at the old Jockygym (now Skarbowsky Gym) in Bangkok, which brought up Saenchai, Lerdzila, etc. He's amazing. I maybe would only suggest the gym if you plan of taking several privates with him, just to get the focus right. Here is a segment of Sylvie's Patreon session with him:
Kem's gym is more of an all-around technical gym. Not specializing in kicks, but certainly teaches beautiful styling, including kicking.
-
2
-
-
That is super cool. And pretty awesome that it flowed out of the shirts that Sylvie made of Karuhat. This is just the best stuff. Artistic creativity, respect paid, inspiration from others. Btw, it looks great.
-
1
-
-
As everyone returning to the forum will see we've done a complete redesign of the forum (as well as of 8limbs.us). 8limbs.us has become 8limbsus.com (which will give it more reach out there in the netherworld. And the changes made to the forum are of super-high quality. The forum is now equipped with the latest software, and is very supportive of conversation and community. That being said it's sure to have a few bugs as we go forward in the next month, so please do post any anomalies, confusions or deadends that you run into, just so we can make it better for others. I'll post a list of upgraded features, but one of the better ones is that if you go to your profile you can add your Facebook account which will allow Facebook Login, just signing in with click. That's pretty good, I'm already using it.
I have to say that this complete level-up could only be accomplished through the support of our patrons. If you are not yet a patron and appreciate this space and community you can easily become one here: Patreon - Sylvie. Even a $1 a month helps with the new costs of the forum, and gives you access to some incredible exclusive content the likes of which you cannot find anywhere else!
-
2
-
1
-
-
On 4/15/2018 at 7:40 PM, muaythai said:
Hello sylvie and everyone,i got another question:P
Lets say someone is coming at me with punches(in sparring for example) how should i react?
-just raise my guard up and wait till hes done punching and attack back?
-move my head back and kinda keep distance with long guard?
-keep moving around the ring so when he punches me ill avoid him?
-directly punch back?(but doesn't that leave me expose?)
I usually do a combination of all these but i haven't really got it how to react exactly..
Thanks
A good thing to work on, stylistically, is that when punches start coming: throw a spear knee, or throw a mid-kick under them. Eventually building awareness of where the "open side" is (where the belly button is pointing toward. It's common to think about trying to counter and defend up top when attacked up top, but knees (or if you like longer distances, kicks) are very high scoring in Muay Thai, and are natural counters to punching combinations. Punches extend and open the body.
-
3
-
-
Hey Lucy, we've had lots of experiences in changing gyms, or training at multiple gyms. This is the golden rule that we follow. Just take some time and make an experiment. You don't have to make a final or big decision all at once. Maybe tell yourself that you are going to take a month and try the new gym, with the new habits process and just see how it feels. How things feel (including all the elements you are talking about, including the drive) is maybe the most important thing in training. After a month in the new settings you'd be a much better situation to access your needs. Maybe the new gym situation isn't as great as it seems? The glow might wear off after a couple of weeks. Or, maybe the old gym will be missed, but you won't know it until you make the change for a bit. After a month think about it. You'll also know better what you'd like to say to your old gym if decide to make the change permanent.
Another option might be to blend gyms. Go to the close-by gym regularly, but take maybe 2 privates a month with your old kru. A private session might be worth the drive and money. It could be a way to maintain a good relationship.
-
3
-
-
Hi Silvie!
You recommend Sasakul, but you mean only if you're interested in focusing on boxing ??
How about the new location?
I will be by BKK in a few days, and I would like to know if it is possible to have private sessions with Karuhat.
I was thinking about maybe training a week in Sasakul ...
Regards
Sasakul gym is really a boxing gym (with several world champions). But the private lessons with Chatchai will improve your balance for Muay Thai, 100%. If you are going to be in BKK in the next 3 weeks you might be able to get privates with Karuhat, but I'm not sure. Send Sylvie a message on her FB page and maybe she can help arrange https://www.facebook.com/sylviemuaythai/
-
(Since there are already two topics about this gym, I don't know if I should open a new one. So I will just post my question here,. If that's not fine, feel free to delete/move the post :) )
Reading about gym reviews, here and at other forums/websites, I was wondering about what people think of training for a short period (one week) at such a gym. Last year, I went for a week with my trainer, and a couple of other people, at our "sister gym" in Bangkok. It was fun, and I definitely enjoyed it. This year, we are going again, but I am keen to go a week earlier to try something on my own. Kem's gym looks like a great place, and two of my favourites fighters train there! I would love to stick somewhere for more than a month, but my current job makes it difficult...
The only real risk with training at a hard training gym like Kem's for a shorter period of time is that of acclimation. It might take you a few days to settle in physically. But Sylvie who is always in fight shape trained there for only a day, and loved it. I would just say that you should try to get your running up, and be ready to be tired.
-
2
-
-
Lommanee Sor.Tehiran(Thai) vs Fani Peloumpi (Greece) 2017 -
Adding these photos for Tyler:
Map, looks like it's about 40 minutes from Rajadamnern
-
2
-
-
Fair enough Kevin. I was speaking more to the big name tourist gyms I have heard stories of than this gym particularly, though the review didn't sound like he had a great time or was especially well looked after. That's why I asked if he would go back. He also said the trainers changed out during the short time he was there, that leads me to believe they aren't taking great care of the trainers either or it's not being tightly managed. It's easy to set a repetitive schedule and have trainer's follow itnmindlessly day in and day out. Gym prices have jumped in the last few years, but I find 40,000+ baht to be incredibly high for a month of training and housing when many quality gyms can be found in BKK, Chiang Mai, or Hua Hin for half that price. I haven't been out there so I can't judge, I'm only going off a single persons experience. In all honesty it sounds like a gym I would really enjoy, but also sounds pretty rough for a first time stay in Thailand.
Edit: Also, you've gotta remember that if you show up with Sylvie and camera equipment it's quite possible you are going to receive different treatment than random Canadian guy. Not saying that's a factor, just that it's a possibility. Maybe I read this all wrong and he had a great time, but seemed like there were some bumps. As I mentioned though, that might also be due to a cultural misunderstanding between him and the gym or a perceived slight which caused them to treat him differently than other students/gym members.
I guess it is natural on the internet to extrapolate from very little information. I just try to restrain from making broad negative judgements from afar. Like in the above, the idea that they aren't taking care of their trainers is kind of absurd, and based on basically nothing. Kru Dam and Bernueng there have been with the gym for ages, and are insanely skilled. It could be that they are having problems with their trainers, but in a fighting gym itinerant trainers are also pretty common, there is always a halo of cycling trainers outside core trainers. It's hard to say which it is. As to the idea that gyms somehow snap into their best behavior when Sylvie shows up this really isn't how it is. Most gyms know very little about Sylvie or what she is, if at all. Her own gym, Petchrungruang where she has been for 4 years, hardly has a real clue about how well-known she is, or whatever her website is - if you can believe that - and don't really care about it. Any "fighting" gym really doesn't think that much about these things. What they do respond to is that she trains like hell, is really knowledgeable, is skilled and speaks Thai, they definitely changes the dynamic, but we also watch how others are treated and what the training is like. I'm not sure where you got the idea that this was some kind of big tourist gym. That's not the feeling I had at all. It's a fighters gym as far as I can tell. Kem is a huge gambler, and loves the game. I can also say that the way the gym treated us when we walked into a festival fight with no corner, and stumbled upon their mat, was nothing short of memorable. They took Sylvie right in and treated her like their fighter at a moment's notice (festival situations can be very political). It said a lot to us how they absorbed her right away into their family of fighters.
I'll agree that it is probably a very steep learning curve for a first time in Thailand, but some people like that. Some people are adventurous. Price isn't everything. If you are on a shoestring budget this isn't the place for you. But this is a gorgeous gym in an incredible setting with a very tough training regime. You can't really compare this gym to a Chiang Mai or Hua Hin gym, which are actually tourist gyms, that is, the reason they exist is to serve tourists. This is a fighting gym, or at least it was when we were there. There are gyms that exist in order to serve tourists, and there are gyms that exist to develop Thais, and use tourist dollars to supplement their fighter development, that's the pleasure of the gym. The good ones, like this, then allow the tourists to integrate with the "real" gym. That's the feeling we had when we were there. It's not easy to integrate if you aren't the focus, and gyms go through bad periods, sometimes for a long time, but the chance to get to be close to the "real" business of Muay Thai is kind of irreplaceable. You aren't the boss because you are a customer. When you aren't the boss because you are a customer you can have a hard time finding your spot in the system. The only way in is through work and attitude. It can leave you with mixed feelings. You don't feel valued sometimes, or left out.
As a sidenote, and really, this is going off our short visits to the gym, the clinch focus at this gym was some of the best we'd encountered in Thailand. This not a small thing. Nobody knows how to clinch in the west, more or less. When you come to Thailand you want to clinch. So few "tourist" gyms focus on clinch in the Thai way. You need to work against Thais, you need lots of hours in the ring. It's the only way to learn the balance. It's not really imitate-able. Again, the gym might have changed, but this was one of the few gyms we've encountered which was very clinch focused in the real kaimuay sense.
Hey, it's up on a mountain. It's been running for a while. Things can get into a rut. I don't know. But I think it a big mistake to impune Kem with some pretty harsh assumptions, that he doesn't give a shit about westerners in his gym, or his trainers. Those are some kind of hardcore things to toss out there, even as "maybes" from very little information. I know you had a lot of time at Master Toddy's, at least from our experience there is no gym we've ever seen like Master Toddy's (though some of the dynamics we've seen). This isn't like Master Toddy's gym.
I'm not going to say that this is an easy gym to go to, but it has some elements that are very hard to find in Thailand and that are worth experiencing. This is one of the most interesting questions about coming to Thailand to train. How much do you need to be the focus (in a customer experience way), and how much do you need to submit to a "real" kaimuay dynamic (which means you aren't the focus, and really, that you aren't very important)? There are gyms that take advantage of this differential and just offer shit training, but it doesn't really sound by his description that this is what was happening. Honestly, I thought this was a great review of a mixed experience. It didn't sound like he was miserable, but more like there were things that bothered him a little.
Take this:
-Repetitive Training: Although the training is hard, it is a little repetitive at times if you ask me. We did the same exercises day-in and day-out with the only difference being the number of rounds for each one. The training is pretty much oriented on the basics and fundamentals as well. They will make sure you can do a proper jab, a proper kick, and so on.. One thing I didn't like too much as well was the fact for the clinching sessions they were just making you clinch and throwing you on the ground, they weren't really breaking down techniques much. Although this approach has its benefits, I believe taking like 5-10 minutes to properly show a technique would have been a good addition as well.
This is actually REAL Thai training. You are experiencing exactly how Thais learn. Lots, and lots and lots of repetition with lots and lots of focus on the basics. You do innumerable rounds on the bag or pads. To be honest about it, this is not that far from some "wax on, wax off" Kung Fu shit. Something deeper is being instructed than you realize. And yes, exactly that, in clinch you get dumped on the ground endlessly. This is how Thais build fighters. It takes a really long time, but this is it. Learning clinch for instance, and looking for technique breakdowns (I understand how someone would want this, but it isn't how it is done) would be like trying to learn "surfing breakdowns" and not wanting to fall off the board. For Thais you just get on the board and try to keep on it, again and again. It can be very frustrating, and feel like you are being abused, but once you give into it (stop being the customer) and start relying on yourself to solve the problem, you start to grow in a deep way. You haven't "learned" a trick, externally, you develop it. You watch others, you experiment. You solve. This is how it is done. For a long time Sylvie was clinching with Bank, her own gym's owner's son, who had an incredible lock. He would just very painfully lock her. He wouldn't even knee really. He would just crush her. It didn't feel nice at all. Eventually she just had to solve it. She learned that she couldn't really get out of the lock so she had to learn how to defeat the move before it locked in. It took a long time, maybe months, but she learned. It would have been a very different experience if she was just shown the "counter" and drilled it over and over in a class like situation against a westerner. It's a very different kind of knowledge that she has now. This is how technique is taught in kaimuay situations. High repetition, lots of problem solving. The point is that something that disappointed the reviewer (and I get it, you want to be shown) is actually coming in contact with "real" Muay Thai. And, there is something very valuable in that. The problem is, this kind of process takes a long time. And, it feels a little uncaring. It's a form of immersion. It would be like learning a language by just having people talk at you. You learn nothing at all for a while, but then as you get your feet, you learn much more deeply. By letting westerners into this training approach the gym is actually generous. It's not distorting it's culture of what Muay Thai is to accommodate you. You are able to get in touch with real Muay Thai. Now, whether this is of value to you in a 1 month or 3 month trip is a different story. Sure, you can pop on down to Hua Hin, hang on the beach a little, learn 3 counter moves and 2 trips, practice them all the time, and come home to your home gym and kick people's ass who don't know those moves. Totally. But that isn't really Muay Thai, in the Thai process. People come to Thailand hoping to get the "hack", the short cut to real techniques. It's the home of techniques, but the nature of how Muay Thai is traditionally taught is the opposite. It's slow. That's why you kind of have to decide in a real sense how much you need to be the focus, and how much you want to feel real Muay Thai processes, and find a gym that is on the spectrum in the right place for you. This is one of the most important questions to answer when coming to train in the country.
-
2
-
-
I know I've asked before about gym, but my situation has changed and I will be going to Thailand for a month next summer alone.
After reading Sylvie's list my two choices would probably be Sitmonchai Gym or Kem Muay Thai Gym.
I have two main considerations:
My size, 6'4" 240 lbs, I need a gym with foreigners even here in Canada I have difficulty finding sparring partners of my size so I can't imagine in Thailand.
and Clinch. I want to learn a lot of clinch because in north america we don't, I least in the 3 gyms I've trained we did not do much.
Because of the first criteria I am leaning towards Simonchai but Sylvie said they do not clinch much so I am hesitating.
And Kem's gym seems awesome, they clinch a lot but I am afraid of lacking people with my size.
Any advices or suggestions? I don't really care where it is or how much. It's just for a month and all I want to do is train.
thank you
No doubt, you are a big guy! But, it is probably better to learn how to clinch against smaller Thais that really know what they are doing in the clinch, with long clinch sessions, and it is to go against big westerners who don't really have the expertise, less frequently. You really want to be exposed to technique. Of course this operates on a scale, and it's hard to assess from afar.
Kru San (re: Tyler's comment) who is a pretty big guy at Sitmonchai, but I don't know if he clinches. I'll tell you though he's impressive with his strikes. You can watch a private session with Kru San on Sylvie's Patreon. He's kind of incredible. He's recently begun fighting again, after several years of retirement.
-
Sounds like you got an "authentic" experience lol. Awesome review, I considered going here but the price just couldn't be justified. It's ludicrously high in my opinion. So many gyms trying to make money off the name of a couple resident fighters, seems like they might have added themselves to that list or are getting dangerously close to that territory. I'd imagine this is a pretty advanced gym to attend from a cultural standpoint, likely difficult for anyone who hasn't spent some time in Thailand.
The taxi/shuttle scenario seems pretty messed up, doesn't seem like they care a lot. No offense, but I'm wondering if the personal issues you had with them played into that in anyway? It's easy to make a misstep in culture here, especially your first time in Thailand. It's quite possible they just didn't give a shit though and would do this with any foreigner who is done training there. Seems like once you stop paying they stop caring which isn't what I want out of a gym.
I guess the biggest question I have is... would you go back?
wow, a lot of negative assumptions there Tyler. "trying to make money off a couple of big names", "don't give a shit", etc. Hmmm. Tough to be saying these things from afar, never having met these people. The price for instance, last I checked, was pretty commensurate with Sangtennoi's gym, which is a grade A gym as well, also in a rural setting (if I remember the pricing correctly). Kem isn't just a "big name", he actively runs the training with a very close eye. He was extremely present the few times we've trained there, bringing exactness and toughness to the sessions. Yodwicha isn't just a "big name", he was incredibly generous clinching with Sylvie (huge size difference) patiently teaching his techniques to her. I've never seen a superstar be more generous, more patient. I understand we all can make broad judgements about Thais, from afar, based on our past experiences with others, but we always found Kem and his team to be authentic as persons. If I had to pick one gym that Sylvie would train at for an upcoming fight for a month, Kem's would probably be one of 3 I can think of in all of Thailand. This isn't to say that the gym might not have it's ups and downs, all gyms do, but they've been pretty awesome with us.
-
2/26
Arg. Long time not writing about my love of training and Muay Thai. Smh. This has been the problem. I'm a consistency guy. I like to do the same thing, the same way, over and over and over. Same time. Same situation or mental framework. I can power through almost anything this way. But...Muay Thai isn't really set up like that for me. There are lots of interruptions of schedule. When Sylvie fights we travel for days at a time. Sometimes when she's in an off mood I stay away from the gym. And sometimes it's just events that come up. Sylvie got sick. Sylvie's family came and visited. 100 things. I'd call them excuses, but really they are something else for me. Reminders that as yet Muay Thai is not a commitment for me. Not a full, hardcore commitment that I want it to be. I want to be 100% uninterrupted, and it hasn't been happening, at all. That's on me, but it's also a part of just how I'm wading into to this. I'm trying to get to the place where I can just dive in and not come up for a year or two. That's my Happy Place. That being said, after several months of serious interruptions, I've come back to regular training with Pi Nu, and am absolutely loving it. He's just a crazy good instructor, always pulling me forward to higher tolerances. More rhythm. More beauty. More forcefulness. And yes, better condition.
Speaking of conditioning, something that really overshadowed my Muay Thai was a deeper realization. A more fucked up realization. If I stay at this weight I'm going to die. There are very, very few old fat people. Certainly not old people my size. The arrow really hit home when we went to the hospital to get my eyes checked. I had been experiencing some blurred vision that I feared might be degeneration of some kind, or possibly something related to pre-diabetes. Turns out my eyes are fucking healthy, as far as the examination went, but the nurse's eyes bugged out when she took my blood pressure. It was way, WAY up. Something like 160/110 maybe? Took a lot of Googling to figure out just how bad that is, but it looks like my sedentary life of just doing digital work, and nothing else, and eating a storm of salt and sugars, has absolutely wrecked my body. Or is fast on the pace of wrecking my body. This is serious stuff. I'm not going to be around to see Sylvie do her incredible things if I'm not going to be around. We set an appointment to see a doctor about it in Pattaya, I got prescribed high blood pressure medicine, and long story short I got full-on serious about my weight and my health. Big Time. First thing I did was take control of my diet. Salt out. Sugar out. Potassium in. But, the biggest thing I did - and please, no health or diet advice, I've Googled the hell out of this and I've made my decision - is that I've returned to the one thing that got me to successfully lose weight previously in my life when I got a little big (not this big at all, but still big). I've started to alternate day fast, and honestly I love it. It changes my relationship to food which is really what needed to happen. Fasting does all kinds of wonderful things to mice and such, and you can read up on it all yourself, but this is something I believe in. And that, more than anything, is what this is about. I feel much, much better, know that I'm heading in the right direction, and I just hope that I haven't done too much damage in the last 4 years of living in a very unhealthy way. I'm due to go to the doctor next week for blood work, and probably a re-up on the hypertension medication, but what this is really about is that you have to realize what is precious and what it takes to keep it in your life. And Sylvie is precious. Not having a life pretty much ends all questions of value.
So, my return to consistent Muay Thai (it's going to be interrupted again next week by travel, but that's ok) is much more to be seen in the context of my alternate day fasting, and my transformation of my diet. My body is definitely changing, and I suspect that I should be in the healthy zone of weight in about 8 months. Here's to hoping that my insides improve as much as my appearance.
Below is a photo from today at 113.5 kg (250 lbs), starting many months ago at 126 kg (278 lbs). It's not all come off from Muay Thai, but it is definitely pitching in.
About the Muay Thai itself, it's just insanely satisfying. I clinched for the very first time in my life with a giant of a person (no really, much bigger than me which was cool) and got my neck wrenched big time - about 5 days of pretty terrific neck pain - but I was proud of myself trying all sorts of defensive maneuvers in my very first clinch. It was honestly the only thing I could do as he was just so big I couldn't even lock on him, and very strong. But face smush with walk forward, a little drag back, a shoulder roll to break the hand position. Small things, but so cool to be able to try and do them.
A few things I loved discovering in pad work with Pi Nu. I was kicking ok, but I found that when I started adopting the Pinsinchai Reach (the way Pinsinchai fighters extend their arm defensively instead of swinging it back) that my power, relaxation and accuracy went up. I didn't expect that at all. I really like that reach and am going to keep up with it because it dovetails perfectly with the cross reach on knees (cross-grabbing the shoulder cap of the pad holder, using your own shoulder to defend and shield). They are the same basic motion, and it feels like they could mask each other. There also seem like there can be other things thrown off this reach. Elbows, feints. I also have been having huge problems with my lead teep. Pi Nu really likes to call a lot of this, and is adamant that it to be done, both defensively and offensively. I just can't get my leg up and have all the parts and pieces come together. It feels out of body uncoordinated. But, I tried the Pinsinchai reach on the teep (you aren't really supposed to do this) and it improved my teep pretty quickly. So I'm just going to play around with that. Extending the arm could intimate a jab or just be a high distraction. It seems like fun. I'm not there yet, but I inched forward.
I also get in the ring with Sylvie and let her beat me around the space, so she can work on just staying close against a big figure, and so I can, well, get beat on. It feels really good to see the rhythms right there in front of me, and to feel the results of impact. Like it might feel good to feel the water splash in your eyes if you were trying to become a swimmer. If I ever fight - who knows - this kind of beat around and catching of strikes (I just wear my gloves) is putting the Muay Thai right in me. And again, it feels good.
That's all for now. For any that are following this drivel of an account, good things happening. Next week is a travel week, but maybe I'll do some shadow boxing every day, or something more to get the Muay Thai bug biting.
-
5
-
-
It's looking like the date is going to be somewhere around April 5th. As to the cost we are still figuring out it. Because we are trying to really limit the number of people to maybe 12 people only, so it will feel as close to possible to personal training. The difficulty with this is that it will probably be pretty expensive. We want to make sure the legends get their respectful due. Adding to the cost is that out of nowhere another legend has said he wants to be a part of it too! We should know by the middle of February if not sooner most of the details, and will be posting a Facebook Event to keep everything coordinated.
-
3
-
-
Watch this video of a very tiny Thai girl fighting an incredible round against a Thai boy.
Let's leave aside any personal feelings you may have about child fighting, child safety, etc. And Let's leave out the arguments about gender. There is something unreal in this video, something kind of incredible. This little girl, who probably has had very few fights, and very few sparring sessions, as an acute sense of distance. In her miniature approximations you see essential Thai, as in Thailand, Muay Thai fighting characteristics. The retreat is just out of range, but not only just out of range, it's done with emotional equanimity, not out of fear, just a little step back. And, then her snapbacks with punches, closing the distance again. The counter rhythm is repeated over and over again. This is core femeu control of space, something even western fighters literally with decades of experience cannot, or do not care to manage. The retreating, scoring fighter. Where does this come from? How does this get communicated in such a basic, beautiful way to a little girl? What is the method of transference?
This Sense of (Defensive) Space, I suspect, is buried deeply in Thai culture, perhaps in it's Buddhist roots. One of the earliest accounts of Muay Thai, and the first account of a Farang vs Thai match up (Thai Fight 1788!), resulted in the westerner becoming infuriated at the retreat of the King's champion, Mun Phlan, selected to face a Frenchmen who challenged the court:
Now of course there are forward fighting styles in Thailand's Muay Thai, many of them, and renowned fighters who owned them. But there a thin golden thread that seems to stretch from the late 18th century all the way to this little girl who preternaturally has absorbed the art of space.
-
4
-
-
In Chiang Mai Thapae Stadium is probably the best. Chiang Mai Boxing Stadium also has fights (Facebook: Chiangmai Boxing Stadium), as well as the new Kalare Night Market Stadium (Facebook: Chiangmai Nightbazaar Boxing Stadium).
-
I want to change my avatar from the standard anonymous octopus to a little animation. Can I do this, and if so, what format? I've made is as an MP4 but the website doesn't like it. SHould it be a gif, or can't I have a moving avatar? Thanks!
I think it just has to be a photo. But I'm not sure, I haven't tried putting in a GIF. The GIF though, if it would work, would have to be hosted somewhere else.
-
What a great, detailed review. Sylvie hasn't been training full time in many gyms, but the lack of clinch instruction, technically, is pretty common I believe. This is how the Thais learn. You get thrown, and thrown, and thrown, and locked and locked and locked, and you figure out it. It's a very difficult way to learn in the short term, but it's how they all learn. Also, the repetitive training on basics is also very Thai. Even very advanced fighters train heavily in the basics. Again, how they all learn.
-
5
-
-
There are some how look to Taekwondo's inclusion in the Olympics (for roughly 12 years as a demonstration sport, and then as a medal sport in 2000) as a model for the kind of leap Muay Thai might be able to make. And yes, Taekwondo has received plenty of criticism for how things unfolded. But, it's worth looking at how Muay Thai fairs against TKD in the world and in the US:
-
1
-
-
A year later, just checking the trends. "Muay Thai" (as a sport) in October hit was at the lowest, World Wide, that it's been since 2004, in terms of search percentage interest:
In the United States it also hit the lowest point since 2004:
If you want a point of comparison with another sport/art that got a big boost from MMA and the UFC, in the United States you can see the difference between Muay Thai and BJJ:
If you are thinking seriously about the future Muay Thai, in the world, this is data that should be discussed. The trends continue.
-
1
-
-
I like what you say, Kevin but I also totally identify with the bummed out feeling Kaitlin describes. In my work career, I have been on both sides of this coin and I'll take people doubting my talent and thinking I got ahead on my looks any time over being ignored cause, fuck it. That little "glam" career push is a very very tight window though (even tighter in fighting, witness the gorgeous Felice Herrig crying at a press conference last year over the reality that at 33 she is "too old" for the UFC to promote. Such an ugly story and she is a champ for being open about it). I take heart in Amanda Nunes' point of view. She's just like "whatever, that's how it is"and goes about her business. I LOVE HER FOR THAT. Acceptance and refocus on what matters to her (to me too).
I don't know if Natalie ever told you, but --- if I remember correctly --- when she lost a close decision she felt she had won to Julie Kitchen the ref (was it Big John McCarthy, or am I inventing that part of the memory) told her afterwards, something to the order: "Because of your look, you can't expect a win." Sorry for totally screwing up the memory of what she told us a long while ago, but it is was something along those lines. Incredible. The way Natalie told it it was almost as if the guy was telling her this as a consolation.
-
1
-
-
While there are some promotions that encourage individual self-expression among athletes and don't penalize them for it (Invicta is one of these), the landscape for an athlete who chooses to use her sexuality versus one who chooses not to is quite different. This is something I noticed as a fighter, but seeing the extent of it from the other side now has lead to a bit of disillusionment on my part.
Perhaps the answer to this impassible union between marketing and sexuality is to embrace that there are so many sexualities that can be expressed by fighting women, that the "sexy" isn't just a glossy Swimsuit sexuality, but that there are gritty, or ardent, or geeky, or "x" sexualities, that can intensify marketability. Yeah, it would be awesome if it was just a question of "skills", but in the marketing of fighting there may always be a dimension of "sex" that is never left behind. You see this in men too, in a way. There was even a kind of Boss Hog aura of attractiveness being pushed in someone like Big Country. Perhaps this is the thin line which could create more inclusion.
-
3
-
Master Toddy, Woody and Kevin Llyod Were Not At Origin Muaythai fighters
in Open Topics - men and women - General Muay Thai Discussion and News
Posted
This is a really interesting post. I will say that as an admin here the forum isn't the place for politically minded arguments (including politics in the Muay Thai world), we are trying to build a non-argumentative, informing space that celebrates Muay Thai, broadly. But your post does raise interesting larger questions, and the photographs are very cool.
The most important and perhaps relevant question is What is Authentic Muay Thai? Yes, there were TKD roots to the introduction of Muay Thai into England, but this was literally multiple decades ago. TKD was an international sensation at the time, and many Thais were drawn to the art. But...there is no denying that both Master Woody and Master Toddy have dedicated their lives to Muay Thai, not only as businessmen, but as ambassadors, translators of the sport and art, and as teachers. Neither was a fighter as far as I know, but many, many worthy instructors and teachers were not fighters, or were only fighters of meager careers. Muay Thai, as it has washed over the shores of other countries relied on the promulgation of these kinds of men, capturing, celebrating, forwarding the art and sport, appealing to the trends in fighting sports as they were in the countries Muay Thai landed in. There was a time when I took umbrage at just who was calling themselves "Master", but I've come to realize that Master is a kind of term of Muay Thai business when Muay Thai entered in the west, encountering a context of Traditional Martial arts. I think there can be no doubt though that both of these men have been powerful forces in the internationalization of Muay Thai. And yes, this is Muay Thai. I know much less about Master Woody's career and business, but Master Toddy has been perhaps the most influential figure in the forwarding of female Muay Thai in the west (and concordantly, through influence, in Thailand as well). Just the sweep of each of their careers cement them as pillars in the modern Muay Thai story.
Now, is their part "real" Muay Thai? I think it is wrong to suggest that because they had TKD in their background they do not, or have not represented and furthered Muay Thai. I can say, just in terms of legitimacy, when you enter a gym in Thailand, it's the quality of the pad holders that pretty much determines the substance of the Muay Thai that emerges from that gym, and both of these men (I presume, I've been in Master Toddy's gym multiple times) carry pad men who handle students more than capably. Real, fight-oriented Muay Thai.
There are interesting issues of authenticity of taught style. Master Toddy, having literally decades of instructing westerners, has developed a philosophy on how westerners can beat Thai style fighting. He has developed teaching methods that are unique and principles that emphasize certain skills and traits. Everything that I've seen from him (a few visits) was not only very interesting, but it was well within the cannon of Muay Thai proper, as far as I could tell. I think people make the mistake of imagining that Muay Thai is a narrow fighting sport, when in fact it is filled with technique and teaching variety, and it has been absorbing influences from different martial arts since its modern inception when it was taught to cadets beside Judo at Suan Kulap College in the early 1900s. Since that time there is no "pure" Muay Thai, in fact it has long negotiated its nature under the early influence of Judo and then western boxing. Just the other day we were with Rambaa Somdet, and he was teaching Sylvie a Karate/TKD style side kick, and a Judo influenced throw. All that mattered was "this will work". The more we expose ourselves to the great teachers of Thailand the more we are struck by how much variety of technique and influence there is in the art. And I will definitely say that I'd love to film with Master Toddy to archive his influence, his philosophy, his teaching method. It has been born from decades of ushering westerners toward fighting in Thailand. How could this not be Muay Thai.
You also make a very discuss-able point about the Muay Boran outfits that are popularized over the last few years. I think people have to come to realize that "Muay Boran" has been a construction ever since it's beginning. Here's a summation of the origin of the Boran styles:
This act of ordination basically made up Muay Boran by classifying it. It was part of a larger political move that involved taking Muay Thai (Boran) out of the transmission hands of the diverse temples were it was taught, and formalizing it into centers of teaching. From its very beginning it was a constructed (made up, to some degree) thing. And from that time very, very little of what was known, taught and fought with (from those schools of lineage) survives at all. You may have Kru Lek who has been teaching Muay Chaiya in Bangkok, devoting his life to that style, or General Tunwakom, who has devoted himself to Muay Lertrit, but these are very thin connections to the actual knowledge and styles of those days. The entire memory of Muay Boran is fragmented. So, does this mean that it should just be forgotten? No. Instead it has in the recent years been formalized. There have been efforts to catelogue and archive what is still known. And it has been commercialized to some degree. The fabrication of the uniforms is based on traditional dress as far as I can tell, as it has survived in elements. This is a call back to a distant past. The combination of an evoked past and commerce is very Thai. You have a huge resergence of Ayutthya recollection (and dress wear) in Thailand now. In many respects the past is always ideologically (and commercially) reconstructed. This is no different. The interest from westerners in these vast invocations of Muay Thai history helps preserve that history, or that sense of respect that gives Muay Thai an individuality. Is it immune from criticism? But what is really going on here is a recollection and celebration that at least in some ways might help preserve the remaining fragments of a heritage that is otherwise threatened.
The bottom line really is that there is no simple "center point" of authenticity from which to critique all other forms of Muay Thai. The entire thing is constructed and shot through with financial interests. It's wrong to remove Master Toddy and Master Woody from the Pantheon of major figures who have forwarded the art. In the end we are all carrying with us our little ember from the fire that only we can hold, helping it toward the future.
Note: If this post is part of an organized, and persistent character attack on any of the men mentioned in the OP, and not the beginning of a discussion, the post will be deleted. I'm hoping that instead deeper ideas can be discussed.
Note 2: The original post above has been significantly edited, as if in response to what I had written, to now include Master Sken, and other descriptions. It is now locked.