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The explanation sounds a lot like the Golden Kick, although the execution looks a bit different to me. That might go down to experience. The "up the side of the body and then twist to turn it over" is very much a Golden Kick. It would be interesting to me to learn where this pedagogy originated, for it to be so widespread in the UK. I don't think we have a "standard" way of teaching the kick in the US and a lot of the kicks I do see are more "roundhouse", akin to Karate. I reckon that would be from the backgrounds of the teachers in all these different schools, a lot of whom come from Tae Kwon Do or Karate and then turned to Muay Thai after many many years in those other arts. So it's hard to change what your body knows already. Did the UK not have a Tae Kwon Do and Karate phase the way the US did?

(This is in reply to the discussion up the thread; didn’t manage a quote because I could not choose which one). In visual art there is most certainly an expectation that the poorer artist will be more “hungry”, “primitive”, “raw talent” & other patronizing terms. Add in race and you have Basquiat as the paradigmatic “poor genius” (meanwhile he was terrifically sophisticated & strategic). The rich artist on the other hand, is the “Sunday Painter” (the expression is an insult referring to dilettantism. It’s not that he only paints on Sunday because he works, quite the contrary, it’s that she only paints on Sunday cause she’s yachting & shopping the rest of the week). Because of mfa programs in the US, which are now legion & terrific money-makers for universities, art is now evermore a playground for the rich & it’s pretty disgusting. Columbia, where I taught a decade, costs @140k without housing etc. so you’re either rich, or your permanently in debt for an art degree. There are many interesting parallels with martial arts. The comfort with violence as a working class phenomenon has a relation to the common expectation that the artist be rough, drug addicted & possibly disturbed (like me as a kid lol). It’s a limiting thing, much like expecting a Thai fighter from the North to express him or herself in a non-intellectual (non-femeu) way.

Kali (Pekiti Tirsia to be more specific) is the only other martial art I have practiced for a significant time (about 8 years or so). It's a Filipino art that is not very "sportified" and is based on the use of blades and impact weapons (empty hands training is done, too though but its based on the same patterns and concepts as the blades). I found it really interesting how similarities between different arts pop up, especially with the more traditional styles. There is so much that sounded very much familiar to me in the Muay Lertrit sessions. Things that are either very much the same as I learned in Kali or at least follow the same principle. There is this thing about "let them try to strike you but make them pay every time" that we also did a lot. Directly counterattacking instead of blocking is a central concept there. Stuff like parrying a punch with a move that, if done well, is supposed to strike the opponent in the same move as it parries their punch. Or making someone who uses a leg kick on you pay by not only blocking with your own shin but dropping your knee on their ankle while doing so, very similarly to what the general demonstrates in that one session. Also I've watched the session with Gen Hongthonglek a few times and only the last time it suddenly occurred to me that the way he uses fakes, delayed timing and counters is actually very similar to how I used to do sparring with the stick in Kali when I was more experienced. I'd typically move back to keep range (I'm a very tall guy with long arms) and would constantly weave my stick in front of me or throw my opponent off with some weird position kind of like Gen does with his feet before he lands his big kicks. This kinda stuff is really fascinating to me. Sure there are differences between arts but often there are also overlaps or concepts that can be applied to other arts as well. Did you have similar experiences? PS: Of course there are differences, too: For example Kali teaches you to give not getting hit (at all if possible) top priority because an opponent could always carry a weapon even if you don't see it right away so every hit might be very dangerous. Thats something I have to practice to overcome a bit in Muay Thai where the opponent is guaranteed to not have a weapon and getting hit is not actually a mistake in principle.

Evolution is what it's about, in my opinion. There's so much freedom in muay thai. To me, you can express yourself better in muay thai language than other martial art languages. You can take what you're given and truly make it your own. Your own dialect of a particular language so to speak. It's so adaptable and enjoyable and flows so freely between things.

That's the same drill I use with my younger students!

This is more hypothesis than fact - but it's quite hard to find a Muay Thai Gym in the UK that isn't aware of every other Muay Thai Gym in the country. Because England in particular is so small (for comparisons sake it's a little bit bigger than Florida geographically) you can't really get too far away without finding the next gym along. Every coach seems to know each other and a lot of the gyms have coaches that were taught by coaches from other gyms. That and in London there are quite a few Thai coaches who are teaching. My coach Thoethai fought from about 1972/1973 on wards so he had a lot of the very old technique. Double K Gym has Rittijak Kaewsamrit on the their coaching team, Jompop Khiatphontip etc. I am not sure how it compares to America's development but Muay Thai hit the UK in the 70s, it's always been a niche thing, but I think something in the time that the martial art started taking off over here had something to do with it. The UK did have a karate boom and Sken's influence over the scene may have something to do with it, as like Toddy he wasn't a muay thai fighter - so his TKD background could have had some influence too! Out of interest, what is it in application of this kick that looks different to you? I can almost see it, but I can't quite put my finger on it.

I am coming to Thailand with 4 of my students who are kids. Two are around 83 pounds and two are 125 pounds and over. I am looking for recommendations for gyms who have a variety of kids for technical training, sparring, clinching, padwork and 3 of them want to fight. I am looking at Rambaas Gym and Keatkhamtorn. Any other recommendations?

I think Rambaa (Baan Rambaa) in Pattaya one of the best gyms for kids, as he has something like 30 kids training at all times. They're pretty small and aged 6-15, with a few late-teen and adult fighters, so matching to the size of your fighters is a good bet but not guaranteed. Because of the sheer number, chances of clinching and sparring are really good. But his structure is pretty strict, in terms of how they train at the gym, and could be a bit intense in a very short visit, but something you'd get accustomed to and work yourself into on a longer visit. My gym, also in Pattaya, Petchrungruang is also good for kids because we have so much experience training young Thai boys from a young age to become stadium fighters and champions. We have a group of 4 that come a bit late, after they've gotten out from school and they train a bit after everyone else. They're about 8 years old and quite small, like 24 kg (52 lbs). We also have some very regular young fighters, 99 lbs is the smallest of those and he's about 15 years old. If you don't get an exact match in size, there's always adjustments to be made in training - my training partners are usually bigger than I am and often the western guys who come to the gym who are less experienced go with our boys who are significantly smaller (like, 20 lbs smaller) and still have a good challenge due to skill and strength of our fighters. The reason I think Petchrungruang is the best gym for kids is that our system, well, Kru Nu's system, is a really good balance of technique, hard work, and also fun. In the afternoons you come, get your shadow and padwork and then it's time for clinching and sparring. You have to submit to the program and it's best if they don't come with their own coach, which usually keeps them peripheral to the process. Or, if the coach is there he's not also coaching them. You just put them in the water, so to speak, with the other fish and let it work. I've seen kids develop crazy fast in this system, even just a week and they're significantly more confident, balanced and improved. They boys at the gym all know each other and are friendly to people coming in and leaving - they totally understand that we're all there to help each other, and they've been helped by those ahead of them, etc.

Great video explanation on what I was taught as well. My coach at the time used a wall to help keep the leg from swinging out in an arc. Ive used walls, cage walls, etc to help teach it.

The Role of the Rich in martial arts. Reading a fascinating book on the real history of Taekwando. If you want to understand the fate of Muay Thai, you have to understand the fates of other martial arts and sports. Super interesting is that Karate was basically a rich kid art, when it was brought over from Okinawa, taught in clubs around Universities by only a couple of Okinawans in the 1920s, and then 30s. A few of these affluent youth were also Koreans (Korea was a colony), so they brought back what they learned in those clubs and basically invented Taekwando over the years. Two huge waves of martial art influence, Japanese Karate and Korean Taekwando (which was basically Korean Karate) fell out of that little university scene of rich kids probably affirming a deep and long for sense of manliness through study. Okinawan Karate (I don't know much about it) was probably born across the people of that island culture, but it was the role of the rich, or at least affluent, that created the bridge for its transmission. This tension between the rich who engage in dreamy, ideological theaters of transformation, and the poor who do all the fighting, and through fights/wars, actually develop the techniques, is in Muay Thai as well. It's interesting and important to not undervalue the transmitive-imaginative role of the rich. You see it all the time. Even in the huge influence of The Fighter's Mind by Sheridan, which essentially was a rich kid seeking to find manliness, but in a way that just resonates across the culture. Ultimately, its the affluent, or some mode of affluence, which will end up transmitting a culture and it's arts to other places in the world. The responsibility placed upon them is subtle and important.

Hey Sylvie + Kevine, Is there a way to view all the videos by trainer? Specifically, I've seen a few of your Karuhat videos (awesome BTW) and was watching the "Karuhat - Serpentine Knees and Flow" video most recently and saw you remarked that there's over 30 hours from the 1 month intensive you did. Was wondering if there's anyway to easily view all videos by Karuhat from the intensive. Thanks! Eric

So a little bit of background - most UK in the Muay Thai is informed by the few influential coaches who trained out in Thailand and brought Muay Thai back with them (usually after fighting them in kickboxing) and Master Sken, who like Master Toddy was a TKD guy who sort of knew muay thai a little bit then packaged it as Thaikwondo and begun to teach it in the UK some 40 years ago. I was taught by Thoethai Srikrotriam - a Thai stadium fighter from the 70s/80s and he taught me via watching me train and occasionally correcting things he didn't like until I got to where I am today. The way we are usually shown to kick by the English coaches (several of whom have been taught by my teacher) is very similar to how it's taught in this video. To my eyes that looks pretty much the same as the Golden Kick, but not quite as slick as the sort you'd see from Karuhat, Sagat etc. Wondered if anyone else would like to have a look and see how it measures up to what they understand of the golden age kick!

There almost seems a dialectic (geez, I usually hate that word and concept) between the perceived but yearned for "rawness" or "reality" of the poor (visual artist, fighter?), as nearly a fantasy of the affluent, and the transcendence of social strata (or even human strata), from the disadvantaged artist/fighter, in response. The raw "talent" is taken up by the urban elite, polished (in a gym, in a gallery), and brought into the marketplace when suitable for it. On the other hand, of course, in writing, in music, and in many other aspects of the arts, you don't always have this high/low dichotomy.

Totally agree

I may be over simplifying things here, but it's all the suffix do. Do or way is seen to be a way of cultivating oneself or for want of a better way to describe it, the way to self improvement. So Karate-do, is a method of spiritual self improvement without a focus on the martial context of the techniques. Whereas if one practices Karate-Jutsu the emphasis is placed on the physical application of the techniques and there viability in actual confrontation. Spiritual edification coming second to the primary purpose in other words. Having said that, I don't see how you can have one without the other.

It's very interesting for you to expand the subject to the level of arts in general. I did not expect that! In combat arts there is an added dimension, which is that fighting itself - and by that I mean "real" fighting as a capacity - tends to favor those who are raised in rough lives. Having to scrap, or be physically competent is something you learn at a young age, generally, and these qualities and their relationship to violence, really seem to help performance in combat sports. The rich or affluent are widely seen as "soft", which is why many of them may be drawn to fighting arts/sports, as a way to prove or improve themselves. In Thailand we are seeing a huge trend of this from the Chinese middle class males who are now coming to toughen/prove their manhood, now that their country is in full economic bloom. This is repeating much of what has happened from the last in previous decades. You saw it in the huge success of the book A Fighter's Heart, by Sam Sheridan, which was basically a rich Uni boy traveling around looking for tough adventure. So in fighting there is a kind of contrast, it seems. Over generalizing, you have the "real fighters" who come from rougher backgrounds, and then the meeting them on the other side, you have the affluent who are drawn to the arts because of their affluence. I'm not sure it's the same in the arts, maybe you would disagree. Yes, we have the image of the starving artist, there isn't the same feeling that he is a better artist because he's disadvantaged. One might imagine that an affluent person might make a very good painter, or writer. But, I'm not entirely sure of the argument there. What is "real" art? In the story of martial sports and arts there is a very interesting example in Karate, as it was disseminated to Japan in the 1920s and 1930s in a very abstract way, to the affluent, and that even sparring was removed from the equation. Funakoshi, was the man most responsible for bringing Karate to Japan from Okinawa, someone who prided himself on never injuring a single person:

There is! The Karuhat Intensive was it's own project. It was made possible by Patreon support, but it is not part of the Muay Thai Library. Instead, because we wanted to find a way to raise money in direct support of legends themselves we created the Sylvie Study On Demand Page on Vimeo. 100% of the net profits flow to the legends in the project. The 30+ hours of commentary work with Karuhat is all there. You can purchase or rent access to individual videos, or you can subscribe to the entire series by the month, and have access to all of them. It's kind of incredible. Karuhat had one of the most subtle and almost undefineable styles as a fighter, and the entire style philosophy and its techniques are laid out in these videos. No fighter's style has ever been so well documented, ever. Not only that, there are 6 hours of Yodkhunpon The Elbow Hunter also included in the same series. As a patron you get a discount on these series videos (see at bottom here). We also put up an entire website as home to more intensive projects and Muay Thai study, you can see that here: Sylvie Study. I'm not sure if you've already watched all the Karuhat videos in the Patreon Muay Thai Library itself, which you can see as a patron. Karuhat is the most archived legend in the Library. You can find all of the archive videos here in the Table of Contents. A control F page search can help you find content on that page. But for convenience here are the Karuhat Library entries: Bonus Session 1: Karuhat Sor. Supawan | Advanced Switching Footwork | 60 min - watch it here This is a beautiful session in which Karuhat expands on his switching style, having moved me from standard to southpaw in a previous session. #7 Karuhat Sor. Supawan - Be Like Sand (62 min) watch it here 2x Golden Age Lumpinee Champion (112 lb and 122 lbs), Karuhat is considered elite among the elites. Mixing an explosive style with constant off-balances, angling, and melting aways, he was nicknamed the Ultimate Wizard. I can only describe the things he's teaching here as: Be like sand. This is very subtle, advanced stuff, far above combo techniques or specific defenses. It may take a few viewings to absorb what he is teaching. Everytime I watch this I learn something new. #11 Karuhat Sor. Supawan Session 2 - Float and Shock (82 min) watch it here In this session one of the greatest fighters who ever lived really digs into what must lie beneath techniques, a general state of relaxation and rhythm, the thing that made him one of the most dynamic fighters Lumpinee has ever seen. #20 Karuhat Sor Supawan - Switching To Southpaw (144 min) watch it here 2x Lumpinee Champion Karuhat Sor. Supawan in this epic video posts installs a limited Southpaw core which leads to developing high level ideas found in his switching style: tracking and attacking the open side, watching for and dictating weight transfer. This is the blueprint of a legend's acclaimed fighting style. #27 Karuhat Sor. Supawan - Tension & Kicking Dynamics (104 min) watch it here Karuhat, a fighter with perhaps the slickest style of any Golden Age great, shows the importance of tension, and patiently goes through correcting the kick, making it quicker and much harder to read. #50 Karuhat Sor. Supawan - Serpentine Knees & Flow (62 min) watch it here The legendary Karuhat teaches his winding, advancing style, a culmination of many, many hours of our training together. You get a glimpse into his advanced movements, and his philosophy on reading opponents. #109 The Karuhat Rosetta Stone - The Secrets of the Matador (83 min) This session is somethign of a rosetta stone for all the other sessions. A few years past since we filmed with him, Sylvie still training with him periodically, so we took this session as an opportunity to cover the past techniques, using Sylvie's years long study of them as a way to open them up, and make them more undestandable. Bonus Session 7: Karuhat Sor. Supawan - Forward Check | 39 min - watch it here In this session Karuhat teaches his beautiful and unique Forward Check, and the system of attacks that flow out of it in his fighting style. You can read my detailed post in the Forward Check here. This check, aggressively from Southpaw, versus Orthodox fighters eats up space closes distance, effectively deal with one of the primary weaknesses of Southpaw attack. That makes 40 hours of Karuhat instruction available between both the Muay Thai Library and the Sylvie Study project. Insane. You can find the promocodes for the Karuhat Intensive down below: Patreon Promocodes: As a patron, depending on your tier you can be eligible for discounts on these purchases. $5 patrons get 15% (link: https://www.patreon.com/posts/17837199 ) of these purchases, and $15 patrons get 50% (link: https://www.patreon.com/posts/17837342 ) of of these purchases. The intensive series is supported by patrons.

Yeah it definitely happened a lot here (my coach had to fight kb even though the promotion called it muay Thai because of the laws of the time). So much so that there are/were a ton of coaches that taught kb and called it muay Thai because they honestly thought thats what they were teaching. I had a few coaches that were really kickboxers and taught that while calling it muay Thai. It wasnt until I had a coach who was truly trained in muay Thai that I saw the difference.

The role of the rich in the arts in general! In the context of History, I’m learning that with wealth comes the birth of the opinionated man. Preferences and taste are socialized by the richness of exposure and education. This is a fascinating topic because art is one of the intersection points of the rich and the poor. (I’m thinking of the rich art collector and the “poor artist” cultural motifs). Also, art has the potential to be an equalizer of class, like death, because of the arguably more inherent nature of human creativity. As for martial arts, I see money all over the gym and fight scene both locally and internationally (travel, equipment, nutrition science, etc). But, I would like to see...how much of its survival is fueled by human fight philosophy or technology, than pure monied privilege?

In fact there was a counter point to the wealthy/Gracies and the people who couldnt afford to train with them that still found ways to learn, the vale tudo crowd and the lutas. Better people than me can really explain it, but essentially it created a "gang" like atmosphere with the wealthy being one faction and the poor being another championed by these two groups. Towards the forum topic though, it was the Gracies ability to move to another country and blow up their family's name and sport that led to where we are no with the art.

Bjj is another prime example with mostly the wealthy being taught by the Gracies in Brazil. Its part of why and how it ended up here in the states, specifically Torrance, CA.

Excellent point. The thing I notice about fighters that have really great defense but stay with it too long is either it eventually fails and they get tagged or the fight drags on because the person is too focused on defense and has no offense to speak of. That would be catastrophic in a battlefield or street situation where new opponents and weapons come in to play. So many traditional styles I think suffered from a lack of defense when they got challenged by sport fighting, and I think it was because of this. They are so focused on offense as defense and doing it immediately that they had no sense of defensive timing, things that give you time to size up your opponent and find the holes in their game, something youd never want to do in the battlefield or street. One self defense instructor I love teaches a style that works in all situations amd youll see a cross over to clinching too: Tony Blauer and his spear system (basically a defense that doubles as an entry to a clinch style close fighting system that doesnt give the opponent much time to do anything). If ypu watch some of his stuff youll see cross over mainly because he uses what works from other styles and combines them in a way he feels works best together. It becomes an unweaving and reweaving of styles which I believe is where evolution happens.

100 percent this. Ive seen a lot of cross over in the different styles Ive trained in. Just training in greco roman wrestling you see some cross over to Thai clinching. I think the shared origins, the whys of an art starting, makes it so we will definitely have so.e cross over some where. I also think this is where innovation to you style can come from. Bjj is a relatively new art in comparison, but its evolution in the short time its been around is incredible and its all because no one limits themselves in how they create with it. I see a lot of that ability to evolve quickly available for muay Thai, especially clinch fighting. Just in the different ways of fighting muay Thai you see how imaginations evolved.

You see this in Muay Boran styles like Muay Chaiya, at least as it is taught in Bangkok by Kru Lek. You get a real sense of "defense first", but defense itself has an offensive structure, or the difference between offense and defense is really blurred. This always struck me as the sign of a style's proximity to actual warfare. The very first rule of warfare fighting would be "Do not get killed", and then "Do not become disabled". When you see styles that are founded on rock solid defense (and in my book "evasion" is not rock solid because you can evade, evade, evade, and once you fail, you are dead - or, when a second attacker arrived) it just feels like it's the warfare logic. Those Chaiya, Lertrit styles, where defense becomes wounding, and you are always only a move or two from finishing the fight. That feels very realistic to battlefield demands.

Muay Lertrit is a very interesting example, it's like no other branch of Muay Thai or Muay Boran because it actually has root influences from other traditional martial arts. As the General explained, it's inventor was a Navy man who traveled regularly, and very likely picked up aspects of traditional martial arts along the way, and wove them into the Muay Khorat style he was raised in. Add in that it was developed as a martial (meaning warefare) Art, and you get a very unique expression of Muay Thai in it. วิสิทธิ์_เลิศฤทธิ์ Ajarn Wisit Lertrit This is not very different than the kinds of inventive cross-sections between martial arts that were happening in the 1920-1950s. East and South East Asia seemed to be experiencing unique cross-pollination (Karate itself only coming to Japan in 1922). There is a story that all traditional martial art fighting systems flowed from Shaolin, in some form or others. But there is another sense in which many of them were in contact with each other in the early 20th century. There is no "pure" form. Arjan Wisit may have even come in contact with Filipino martial arts.

Some of the sessions referenced in the OP: #54 The Late Sirimongkol and Lertrit Master General Tunwakom (81 min) watch it here #36 General Tunwakom - Lertrit Military Muay (46 min) watch it here #40 Gen Hongthonglek - Muay Femeu Tactics & Mindset (70 min) watch it here clip of General Tunwakom:

I believe one thing we lose sight of is, all martial arts were borne of the need for either war or self defense, so it kind of makes sense that similarities in concepts and physical applications would be apparent across the spectrum of styles.

I love sparring with my coach the best, and consider it an honor. There is an eerie feeling of course when someone is so far ahead of you (I am a basic student and Muay Thai nerd). But that eerie feeling is magic. I just love that there are levels, forever.

I love sparring with my coach. It's my favorite. But I think that a lot of folks who have apprehensions about it do so because they fear having to "perform" with the coach far more than they do with another student at the gym. Like, wanting to please your coach at the same time as wanting to respect them and not be a dick is pretty complicated. Kru Nu is significantly bigger than I am, but he's got a bad knee and I worry about hurting him, even though I totally shouldn't. So, I don't kick him the same way I would kick a teammate, which just means I'm thinking way more about that than I am with someone else. But then, the reason I love sparring with Kru Nu more than anyone else is that I don't think I "should" win with him, whereas with a teammate it's way more competitive. Plus, he's got way more control than anyone else I spar, so the trust adds to the fun. Karuhat, too. I could spar him all day, every day.

Yes, just book a room nearby so that you can get to the gym for a day of training to see how you like it, then decide whether you want to stay. For Banchamek, if you go there, just book one day and night at a time or whatever and decide whether to book a few weeks after that. If you expect to be training WITH Buakaw and Yodsanklai, you will be disappointed. If you're lucky you'll see them walking around, but they're not at these gyms all the time. Yodwicha is at Buakaw's gym now and if he has a fight coming up might be training, but fighters like these aren't training all the time (or even often). You're more likely to see Yodsanklai at Terminal 21 mall across the street from Fairtex than you are in the actual gym... my husband and I see him there when we are eating dinner, hahaha. This is not to dishearten you, you can train anywhere you want. But be realistic about your expectations and be flexible in your plans so that you don't get stuck. If you land, check out the gym and like it, then that's awesome and you will be happy where you are.

Here is Kru Kimyu in Bank's corner. He also made itnover there at the same time Dieselnoi was screaming in Bank's corner about 2 months ago - 2 incredible men with VERY different energies in the same tiny area.

One of my coaches and I were just talking about this exact thing today. Older people who are just starting haven’t experienced the injuries and overuse issues. My body, after manufacturing and birthing 4 children in 7 years, needs a LOT of conditioning to get up to speed. But otherwise, I’m starting fairly fresh. There are lots of advantages of having a more mature perspective too.

I dont think the instructor was intentionally trying to hurt you. I do think hes out of touch with what it feels like to hold for a heavy kicker or what it was like when he started. Do you need to adapt to the process? Yes, but you also need time to do it and not feel destroyed during the process. Sometimes coaches are more fighter oriented, meaning they orient towards the harder aspects of the sport and training. Those ones tend to forget that a lot of people train in the arts for stress release and fitness. Some of them are really disconnected to the hobbyist. Suggestion: if you go back, pick a partner whos kicks you can handle. Maybe speak to the instructor and make your goals known. If none of that works and you get the same vibe, then I highly suggest finding another spot that caters to your wants and needs. Just my two cents.