Leaderboard

I'm also 35, so I don't think that's too old at all. I plan on another 10 years or more, so long as I can keep doing what I'm doing with adjustments where they're needed. But I do think that as a caveat, you just have to consider what YOU think is enough. A guy at my gym the other day asked me whether I think someone could fight, training only one session per day. I said for sure, but you'd really have to put the work in during that one session. I think you could fight with NO training, but it's about what you want out of your fights and what you want out of your training. So, if you think you're to old, probably that's going to direct your mind a lot. If you think otherwise, you can go farther.

I might be the wrong person to answer this because I’m still a bit of a beginner, lol. But I’m 41 and started training last year and planning on fighting next year. I’ve done a sparring tournament but not full contact. It’s probably a bit more work as an older person but ask yourself if you would regret not giving it a shot. I’m guessing it would all depend too if you are talking about amateur vs professional, skill level, etc. But IMO, you are far from too old.

I’m 35 and I’m trying to retrain myself to fight but given my age and the amount of time I would need to properly prepare for a fight, I think my fighting days are over. I’m still going to train and spar but most Muay Thai fighters have long since retired by this age. I have the will to fight but are my fighting days over?

Pat, thanks for posting. This is such a great story. Speaks to me as a Thai-american, also with nak muay in the family (who also met an untimely death that isn't talked about at all). That image with the reaper is so amazing, would love to see it as a print or on a shirt or something. Sylvie, I remember you posting about another Thai-american fighter (Chanon Kuldraree?) who also found a relative in that book of greatest nak muay - maybe he or his family have some further knowledge of Sakpayak?

Hello, and thank you Sylvie for suggesting this. First I would like to say this is going to get a bit wordy cause a story like this just can't be told in just a few words. My name is Pat Cornett. I'm a Thai American that goes back and forth from USA to Thailand to visit family. I train Muay Thai at Sityodtong LA. When visiting family in Thailand, my family elders would sometimes mention the Legend of my grandmother's brother Sakchai who was a muay thai champ that was handsome and murdered. I didn't know how famous he was then. Family was very humble about it. On my last visit 2 years ago my auntie brought Sakchai up again. So I asked if we had any photos. Only one. And it was a big funeral one which had his real name and fight name written on it. I took a picture of it. Thai can be tricky but Sakchai Nakpayak can translate as winning with honor - phantom tiger or ghost tiger. Back home in the states I decided to Google his name exactly how I thought it would be translated. Only one result which lead me to an old muay thai forum which had a scan of my uncle. Little did I know this was a start of a big rabbit hole. One day I decided to message Sylvie and see if she's caught any word of my uncle since she's been around so many master's. I was chancing it. She took a picture of some of the pages my uncle was featured in that she owns. It has his record and a few details on his death. He beat almost all the top guys in the early 1950s including Sagat's grandfather Suk. It didn't stop there on my research. One day I decided to go back to that old forum to find any further info. One of the commentors who posted scans mentioned the authors name. Alex Tsui. And by golly he has a facebook! I've been talking back and forth with this author and he knows just about everything on Sakchai. He's actually a muay thai historian from China of all places. Alex has been sending me tons of photos and newspaper articles. And there are talks of a movie. I have dedicated a whole album to my uncle which is open to the public on facebook. I know this probably wouldn't mean much to a whole lot of people and by all rights there are still living master's and champs doing their thing fighting and teaching. But it's amazing to me. I was raised American by my dad. There was a time many years ago that I put my Thai culture aside and just wanted to fit in with the people around me. My parents divorced and finding another thai person was like finding a unicorn. Sakchai is from Chon Buri. Has a surviving sister. My family contacted her for me if we can find out his gym name. She doesn't remember. But author Alex believes it's called Rayong Blood. Sakchai had a brother who also trained muay thai but passed away. His brother had 3 kids which my family kind of lost touch with. We only know them by nickname. A son named Dtoi or Toy. A daughter who is about 60 years old named Dtauw. The other son's name my mother forgot. Their last names should be Prianprakdee. Anyway, this is my cool story. I hope you enjoyed it. I haven't come to the end of the rabbit hole and there is much more information out there. It's just not easy to come by Update: I made a video documentary

I've stopped thinking there's any such thing as being too old to do anything. Not out of my own experience obviously as I'm still only 28. But I keep seeing and hearing of people doing all kinds of incredible things at all kinds of ages. Here's Kru Rengrad (red short) one of my coach when I was at Lamnammoon's Muay Thai gym taking a fight in his 50s and smashing it (I don't remember exactly the date of that fight but it wasn't long ago): Also the oldest marathoner is, as far as we know, a man called Fauja Singh from East London who ran his last race at 101yo back in 2013 - and it appears that he didn't start young. (https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-21565970/oldest-marathon-runner-fauja-singh-s-final-race) I see no reason why you wouldn't shine.

Yeah, I don't think Karuhat considers himself a teacher, even though he definitely takes pride in his students. I think his approach is very much like being a senior in a gym, who can raise the younger fighters up but doesn't necessarily assume a formal role. This might be a part of how modern gyms are different from back in his day though. You'd have a single superstar come out of a gym, like Karuhat, Sakmongkol, Santiennoi, etc. These guys weren't from gyms with tons of champions. But then there were a few gyms with lots of them, like Sityodthong, Nongkeepahuyut, Hapalang, just to name a few. Nowdays you have gyms that buy up ALL the stars and they all train together, pulling them out of their smaller gyms where they could be raising others up. But they do carve each other, in these "show horse stables," I guess.

If true that would really be something. We had heard that Suk had fought into his 50s. It's hard to guess what stories might have passed down, or even if Sagat is close to that side of the family, but we can try!

Kevin, I think Sagat's grandfather's last fight was with my grand uncle. I could be wrong.

We will ask Sagat what he may have heard. As Suk's grandson/grandnephew he may have stories in the family.

Prin. I spoke to the guy via Instagram. His dad just turned 60. Doesn't think his dad would have known sakchai as he is too young. But will ask if he's ever heard of Sakchai. Which is cool, but would be more beneficial to find someone who actually knew my uncle.

If I may add to the resources NeverGiveUp listed, it's almost entirely in Japanese, but there is also this site on Muay Boran: https://mayugonforupload.wixsite.com/muayboran555 It has videos of the site-owner's kru, Atsuko Okada, for most techniques and movements. If anyone wants part translating, I'll see what I can do.

found the posts - his father was also a stadium champ circa 1970s, so maybe his father knew of your uncle or has more info. hopefully you can connect!

My uncle fought some big names in his time. I'm really putting energry into the universe hoping there is some rare filming of my uncle. I just wanna see him in action or get a sense of his style. There has to be!

You are completely right! His teaching style is almost entirely through sparring, and correction in sparring. He described to Sylvie how when he was in the gym as a fighter he would always be working on moves or deceptions that would catch his sparring partners off guard. He thought to himself that if he could fool someone who knew him well he could easily fool or mistime an opponent. It led to him developing one of the most unique fighting styles of the Golden Age. When he is teaching sylvie in all those sessions he is still doing this. We see him regularly invent throws, for instance, that we've never seen before, ever. And as he's showing the throw if you pay attention you'll see that he's working on it, inventing it right there before your eyes, just as he would do as a fighter. Now, this is the really interesting thing as to the topic. We have to admit that the entire ecosystem that produced these coaches, and all these fighters, it's gone, like the Amazon rain forest might one day be gone, but new ways of teaching and creating techniques are growing now. Fighters are communication their experiences. Rambaa just the other day was literally teaching Sylvie Karuhat's switching style, impersonating Karuhat, asking her if she knew who Karuhat was (???!), something he had stolen and made his own from videos. And...he's teaching this stuff to the Thai boys who are dreaming of becoming stadium fighters! So there is creativity!

This is a really interesting post. I will say that as an admin here the forum isn't the place for politically minded arguments (including politics in the Muay Thai world), we are trying to build a non-argumentative, informing space that celebrates Muay Thai, broadly. But your post does raise interesting larger questions, and the photographs are very cool. The most important and perhaps relevant question is What is Authentic Muay Thai? Yes, there were TKD roots to the introduction of Muay Thai into England, but this was literally multiple decades ago. TKD was an international sensation at the time, and many Thais were drawn to the art. But...there is no denying that both Master Woody and Master Toddy have dedicated their lives to Muay Thai, not only as businessmen, but as ambassadors, translators of the sport and art, and as teachers. Neither was a fighter as far as I know, but many, many worthy instructors and teachers were not fighters, or were only fighters of meager careers. Muay Thai, as it has washed over the shores of other countries relied on the promulgation of these kinds of men, capturing, celebrating, forwarding the art and sport, appealing to the trends in fighting sports as they were in the countries Muay Thai landed in. There was a time when I took umbrage at just who was calling themselves "Master", but I've come to realize that Master is a kind of term of Muay Thai business when Muay Thai entered in the west, encountering a context of Traditional Martial arts. I think there can be no doubt though that both of these men have been powerful forces in the internationalization of Muay Thai. And yes, this is Muay Thai. I know much less about Master Woody's career and business, but Master Toddy has been perhaps the most influential figure in the forwarding of female Muay Thai in the west (and concordantly, through influence, in Thailand as well). Just the sweep of each of their careers cement them as pillars in the modern Muay Thai story. Now, is their part "real" Muay Thai? I think it is wrong to suggest that because they had TKD in their background they do not, or have not represented and furthered Muay Thai. I can say, just in terms of legitimacy, when you enter a gym in Thailand, it's the quality of the pad holders that pretty much determines the substance of the Muay Thai that emerges from that gym, and both of these men (I presume, I've been in Master Toddy's gym multiple times) carry pad men who handle students more than capably. Real, fight-oriented Muay Thai. There are interesting issues of authenticity of taught style. Master Toddy, having literally decades of instructing westerners, has developed a philosophy on how westerners can beat Thai style fighting. He has developed teaching methods that are unique and principles that emphasize certain skills and traits. Everything that I've seen from him (a few visits) was not only very interesting, but it was well within the cannon of Muay Thai proper, as far as I could tell. I think people make the mistake of imagining that Muay Thai is a narrow fighting sport, when in fact it is filled with technique and teaching variety, and it has been absorbing influences from different martial arts since its modern inception when it was taught to cadets beside Judo at Suan Kulap College in the early 1900s. Since that time there is no "pure" Muay Thai, in fact it has long negotiated its nature under the early influence of Judo and then western boxing. Just the other day we were with Rambaa Somdet, and he was teaching Sylvie a Karate/TKD style side kick, and a Judo influenced throw. All that mattered was "this will work". The more we expose ourselves to the great teachers of Thailand the more we are struck by how much variety of technique and influence there is in the art. And I will definitely say that I'd love to film with Master Toddy to archive his influence, his philosophy, his teaching method. It has been born from decades of ushering westerners toward fighting in Thailand. How could this not be Muay Thai. You also make a very discuss-able point about the Muay Boran outfits that are popularized over the last few years. I think people have to come to realize that "Muay Boran" has been a construction ever since it's beginning. Here's a summation of the origin of the Boran styles: This act of ordination basically made up Muay Boran by classifying it. It was part of a larger political move that involved taking Muay Thai (Boran) out of the transmission hands of the diverse temples were it was taught, and formalizing it into centers of teaching. From its very beginning it was a constructed (made up, to some degree) thing. And from that time very, very little of what was known, taught and fought with (from those schools of lineage) survives at all. You may have Kru Lek who has been teaching Muay Chaiya in Bangkok, devoting his life to that style, or General Tunwakom, who has devoted himself to Muay Lertrit, but these are very thin connections to the actual knowledge and styles of those days. The entire memory of Muay Boran is fragmented. So, does this mean that it should just be forgotten? No. Instead it has in the recent years been formalized. There have been efforts to catelogue and archive what is still known. And it has been commercialized to some degree. The fabrication of the uniforms is based on traditional dress as far as I can tell, as it has survived in elements. This is a call back to a distant past. The combination of an evoked past and commerce is very Thai. You have a huge resergence of Ayutthya recollection (and dress wear) in Thailand now. In many respects the past is always ideologically (and commercially) reconstructed. This is no different. The interest from westerners in these vast invocations of Muay Thai history helps preserve that history, or that sense of respect that gives Muay Thai an individuality. Is it immune from criticism? But what is really going on here is a recollection and celebration that at least in some ways might help preserve the remaining fragments of a heritage that is otherwise threatened. The bottom line really is that there is no simple "center point" of authenticity from which to critique all other forms of Muay Thai. The entire thing is constructed and shot through with financial interests. It's wrong to remove Master Toddy and Master Woody from the Pantheon of major figures who have forwarded the art. In the end we are all carrying with us our little ember from the fire that only we can hold, helping it toward the future. Note: If this post is part of an organized, and persistent character attack on any of the men mentioned in the OP, and not the beginning of a discussion, the post will be deleted. I'm hoping that instead deeper ideas can be discussed. Note 2: The original post above has been significantly edited, as if in response to what I had written, to now include Master Sken, and other descriptions. It is now locked.

Hi! Depending on how it's translated, Nakpayak is either Phantom Tiger or Ghost Tiger. So maybe why the poster has a reaper riding a horse? The book that Sylvie has and now I, it says shadow of tiger. This is confusing. As I know it, he came in and pretty much cleaned out the competition during that time. He was also the very first middle weight champion at rajadamnern stadium. 154 pounds fighting the 160ers. Also has never been knocked out.

We were practising kicks the other day and my trainer said something among the lines: "If you step outside/pivot on your standing foot enough there's no need to lower/straighten the kicking leg arm, it's better to keep your guard up when kicking than risking a counterhit". What is your kicking leg hand/arm position in kicks? Does it changes with different kicks? Have you noticed different outcomes with different positions?

After coming to Master Toddy's I was taught to straighten the arm in front of me when I kick to 'blind' my opponent and protect myself, as dropping the arm down leaves you open. He HATES the arm swinging, but that's just his style. He just has to be different, haha. It took a long time for me to get used to it and to be able to get any power that way, but now it's second nature. This way, I focus on getting my power from turning my hips over as quickly as possible, which puts my of my body weight into the kick, and I find that swinging the arm in the opposite direction kind of works against that for me.

So, I have been training Muay Thai for about a year, and finally had my first fight Nov 6. I wanted to share my experience and maybe get some feedback from the more experienced fighters on the forums about what my training priorities should be for my next fight. Obviously, my trainer has some strong opinions, but I like to get different perspectives The fight was sanctioned under ISKF rules in Florida, which means no elbows and very limited clinch. This is going to be a long post, so please feel free to skip to the end, where there is a link to the youtube video. I am 5'8", and walk around at 140lbs. I had planned to fight at 135lbs, but about 2 weeks out from the fight, the promoter told me I needed to be at 130lbs if I wanted a match. I was very unenthusiastic about cutting weight, but desperate to fight (I had been waiting several months for a match) so I followed the advice in this blog post: http://fourhourworkweek.com/2008/01/18/how-to-cut-weight/ and managed to come in 128lbs. My opponent was 5'2", weighed 129lbs, and had a record of 2 wins and 1 draw. I felt like shit the last week of training because of the lack of carbs. But it was 'day before' weigh-ins, so I had time to rehydrate and refuel. I had some pre-fight anxiety, which I wrote about thusly: "So I am less than a week away from my first fight. I keep thinking to myself "I must be crazy. Why did I agree to do this?" I'll be sitting calmly at work, and suddenly get a shot of adrenaline as I think of my opponent, as I picture entering the ring. I keep thinking of the worst things that could happen. I'm not really afraid of being knocked out, although that would be bad. It's more like the nightmares I used to have, where I'm so angry and I want to hurt someone but all my movements are in slow motion and nothing seems to land. And I'm scared of gassing out: of being so exhausted that my arms and legs feel so heavy and dead. Those are the things I fear: being helpless and tired and dumb. Everyone warns me about the adrenaline dump, and tells me that once I'm in the ring I won't be able to think and I'll just throw whatever my body remembers best. I've written a list of 8 techniques that I'm going to carry in my pocket until the day of the fight. Four of the techniques are "reaction techniques", and four are "initiation techniques". I think that should be enough." (For those that are curious, my list was "1. Jab 2. Teep 3. Parry to punch 4. Parry to Knee 5. Leg kick 6. Hook to kick 7. Jab, cross, switch kick and 8. Superman punch". In retrospect, kind of silly. But I found it very comforting.) Writing down my fears really helped me to process them. I realized the things I was actually afraid of (being totally helpless, getting totally gassed) would be nearly impossible considering I had been training Muay Thai for 3 hours a day, 6 days a week, for over a year. Yes I could lose the fight, but I had done everything my trainer told me to do to prepare, and I wasn't going to embarrass myself or the gym. Reading Sylvie's blog posts also helped me to keep perspective. The day of the fight came, and I was almost last on the card (I think I was the 20th fight?). We got there at 4pm, and I didn't fight until after midnight. I managed to take a nap in the 'locker' room, and stayed bizarrely calm the whole time. I'm generally a pretty anxious person, so I expected to be a bundle of nerves, but it just wasn't the case. Several fighters from our gym fought back-to-back, so I didn't really get much of a warm up, and didn't get a thai oil massage. My trainer is very traditional, and was clearly unhappy and superstitious about it, but I kind of just shrugged it off. In a way, the fight felt pre-determined to me. Either I had internalized the techniques, or I hadn't. I kept thinking of a quote from Muhammad Ali "The fight is won or lost far away from witnesses - behind the lines, in the gym, and out there on the road, long before I dance under those lights." I had a huge physical advantage with my height, and while there are absolutely people who train harder, I felt fairly well conditioned. Then the fight happened. I kept expecting a shot of adrenaline, but it never came. I don't know if that's good or bad. I kept thinking "Surely as I warm up, I'll start getting excited". Nope. "Surely as I stand on deck, I'll get pumped". Nope. "Surely when I walk into the ring and see my opponent, my heart will start racing". Nope. "When the bell rings, THEN I will go into Beast Mode". NOPE. It was very weird. I just felt calm and detached, and totally in control of the fight. Watching the video afterwards was hard though. I did some things 'right', but so much I did wrong. I controlled the pace and the distance and landed some good knees. But everything looks so SLOW and I looked so LAZY. My guard is terrible: I keep leaning back and wildly swinging my arms when I should be keeping them tight and leaning into her punches. I could hear my corner screaming at me to "Go forward! Engage!" and I straight up ignore them because I was out of breath, felt like I was winning, and wanted to play it safe. After the fight, my trainer was clearly very frustrated with me, but didn't lay into me too hard because I had won. But he felt that I probably could have KOed or TKOed her if I had just followed up more after rocking her. I have mixed feelings about this. Obviously, it's preferable to end the fight decisively without letting it go to the judges. On the other hand, I felt very dominant, and it seems strategically advantageous to keep something in 'reserve' for my next fight. I don't know. Or maybe ultimately I'm just lazy and like to do the bare minimum, haha. Here's the fight. I am the very tall one with purple shorts: Comments and criticisms welcome!

I know you are talking about energy and fitness levels here, but I see it in your fight style too. One of the more interesting questions facing a fighter in development is: how much to I go with what I feel is my "nature" and how much to I work very hard to change it? This can be really complicated when trainers have a vision with how you "should" fight based on either what has been successful for them, or on your body type (Sylvie had long struggles with this). Some things are worth changing through hard work, some things that really are you should be embraced, because ultimately fighting is an expression of you. It's the fighter's path to figure out which is which. In watching the fight I really could see your "slow and steady" nature, though it wasn't that slow at all, you had a nice pace. It was more that you had a uniformity to your striking, in terms of tempo and power. Something that might be very interesting for you is to really work on your teep with your length. Teep to the high torso, the low torso, the thighs. If you got good lean back on this it would make you very hard to deal with, and it would compliment your nice round kicks. But mostly why I recommend it is because a good stiff teep could compliment your "slow but steady" comfort level. It works like a great jab in boxing. It would allow your medium tempo, strike, strike, strike comfort, but because it is read as a defensive strike, it would make your more aggressive round kicks and combinations feel more explosive, in contrast. Anyone can have suggestions of course, but it is something I thought about during your rounds. Throwing it out there. :)

Long slow endurance runs, besides the definite mental capacity it takes to do those sort of runs, also help with your body's utilization of the aerobic systems. I know usually when you're in a fight it's a ton of explosive anaerobic work, that's what all the sprints and HIIT helps with. That sort of power. The aerobic part comes in between combos or between rounds. Essentially the stronger aerobic system you have, the faster you'll be able to recover from the explosive work. My cardio absolutely sucks, so I'm actually working on trying to build up to longer runs and work on the mental training to do them, since I get horribly bored and want to quit as soon as possible.

I agree with both 515 and Sylvie. Both endurance and high intensity training have their places and respective benefits, neither one is better than the other, so I find it best to do both. Most people seem to run before training, but I prefer to do it afterwards. That way, I can use it to go over what I did during the session in my head. I tag sprints onto the end, either before or after the big run, depending on how I feel that day. Some days, I'll do one and not the other and occasionally, I won't do any running at all, but as long as you incorporate both kinds into your general routine, you're good.

Hill repeats, stairs and sprints are all great to work into training. I've only ever seen it applied here in Thailand in the lead up to a "big fight," rather than part of maintenance training. I've read the articles and arguments and all that on how HIIT is better than distance for explosive blah blah blah. But I don't think that the 10 km runs that NakMuay are pounding out twice per day are necessarily only meant for cardio. It's mental training as well.