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fighting/going to thailand as a trans person


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No need for me to beat around the bush here I guess: I'm trans, female-to-male. I've been on testosterone for three-ish years now and have had top surgery. I pass completely as male, I even got blessed with good genetics for relatively big muscles. I just have scarring on my chest so being shirtless is a little suspicious. I've been training Muay Thai for about a year now (not 100% consecutively) and I love it. I can't even imagine my life without it, honestly, and I have watched so many documentaries on Muay Thai in Thailand and Thai culture.

I've been thinking about trying to take on an amateur fight for awhile now (I'm in the US), but I'm a little terrified of a few things. Some of it is just being scared of brain damage, while I'm also scared of having to do a pee test and... well... it wouldn't go so well for me. And, whether I fight or not, I want to train Muay Thai in Thailand for at least a few weeks of my life. I tried to research trans rights over there but I could only find anything on mtf individuals. I don't know if I'd be able to bring over my testosterone, or if people would judge me for my chest scars, or if I'm expected to change in front of training buddies, or what.

Just gimme your guys opinions. I'm not asking anything specific, just your general thoughts on all this stuff above. :)

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"The term “kathoey,” which is often used to refer to transgender women in Thailand, has been used for centuries. Additionally, traditional Thai culture has a concept of a “third gender” known as “sak-sra,” which includes people who identify as transgender, as well as gay and bisexual people."

You won't be the only trans-person in Thailand, that's for sure. If you look like a male, and you want people to perceive you as a male, then just don't tell them otherwise, unless you want to. You will be interacting with strangers just the same as you do at home, so it's up to you to disclose or not. In my opinion, 99% of people will not care, and will leave you be like anyone else. 

The only question I would have is regarding fighting rules, and if trans individuals are allowed to compete against formerly opposing, but now same genders. I don't have any knowledge about this. Researching 'Ladyboy Muay Thai Fighters' might be a starting point.

The only other thing I can comment on from your post is regarding scars; everyone in every gym has scars... wear yours proudly. And if someone asks, joke with them and say you took a double elbow combo to your breasts in a heated round-4 exchange with a former Lumpinee Champion. 

Good luck 🙂

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I thought of you just now when I came across This Article from two years ago. I will also post the article text below.

Yokkao Founder Philip Villa Supports Transgender Fighter Nong Rose in Fight for Inclusivity - February 21, 2021

Thai trans woman Muay Thai fighter, Nong Rose Baan Charoensuk is on a mission to strive for transgender rights in Thailand and around the world. She now has the popular Muay Thai brand, Yokkao behind her campaign as the brand’s founder, Philip Villa is supporting her with a 3-year sponsorship contract.

Nong Rose made the headlines in 2017 when she became the first transgender fighter to enter the ring of Rajadamnern Stadium. Recognized the world over as one of, if not the most prestigious Muay Thai arena, Rajadamnern Stadium had for many decades imposed a dress code that prohibited sports bras and long hair. The archaic rule essentially barred women and transgender fighters from entering the ring. 

Famous Muay Thai promoter, Songchai Rattanasuban overturned the legacy dress code when he featured Nong Rose in the main event. Sporting a ponytail, heavy make-up and her signature pink sports bra, the trans woman fighter did not let her promoter or fans down, winning the historic bout via the judges’ decision.

Nong Rose is not the first transgender Muay Thai fighter to get into the media spotlight. During the late 90s, Parinya Charoenphol caught the attention of the whole of Thailand and subsequently the world. Parinya, now more commonly known as Nong Toom, ignited national interest when she fought with make-up (with short hair and bare chested) at Lumpinee Stadium. She was fighting to save up for sex reassignment surgery, which she eventually underwent in 1999. Her story was retold in the award-winning international film, Beautiful Boxer.

Although Thailand is generally seen as being an open-minded country towards LGBT visitors, there is still a persistent stigma towards her own transgender community. Thai transgenders often face discrimination at work and in the case of Nong Rose, she had been insulted many times by her opponents. 

Despite the name calling and prejudice, there is no quit in Nong Rose. On the contrary, it spurred her to train and fight even harder. The 24-year-old now has over 300 fights (all against men) on her record along with several championship titles to her name.

Inspired by her story and fighting spirit, Yokkao founder, Philip Villa is joining her fight for inclusivity. Villa has been a passionate proponent in promoting Muay Thai to a wider global audience, supporting Muay Thai gyms and athletes in achieving their professional goals. On signing Nong Rose as a sponsored athlete, Philip Villa explains 

“Transgender people should be given the same rights and respect as everyone else and I do believe that in the Muay Thai world when even females are not considered given the respect they so deserve, this will be the beginning of many changes within Muay Thai. For there to be a change, actions are required and this is my contribution to social equality.”

Now with Philip Villa and Yokkao on board her journey, Nong Rose’ inspiring fight for inclusivity is more optimistic than ever before.

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While I can't give any Muay-Thai-specific info on this, there are some resources and communities in Thailand that might be useful for you.

There's a Facebook page for trans men in Thailand that you might want to reach out to, TRAns Man Peers - TRAMP เพื่อนทรานส์แมน. The content is mostly in Thai, but I'm sure they'd be happy to help if you sent them some questions in English. I'd also recommend contacting Young Pride Club, either on Facebook or IG. It's run by student activists who have been putting on lots of community events in Thailand. There's also the TEAK - Trans Empowerment page. ILGAAsia is also a good resource for information on trans rights here.

I hope this helps!

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  • 2 weeks later...

From my experience, you'd never be expected to change in front of anybody. Lots of folks arrive in their training outfit and leave in it, but there are almost always bathroom where you can change in private and shower, etc., that aren't group spaces. I would imagen that  you'd be asked about the scars on your chest, just because both Thais and other nationalities training in the space tend to be forward in asking questions about and pointing out each other's bodies. Not necessarily in a mean way, but not always in a way that feels very good, either.

If you have some kind of document from your doctor, I imagine you could keep that on your person for any issues at customs, regarding bringing your testosterone with you. It is, afterall, a medication. I don't believe it's a heavily regulated medicine in Thailand (in Pattaya there are bodybuilders who do their HGH and steroid cycles here, although the market for that is technically not legal but definitely not heavily enforced).

Regarding your worries about fighting, those don't seem pretty common. You just have to decide whether it's meaningful for you to do it or not. If you do choose to fight in Thailand, I highly recommend you do not disclose being Trans, simply because it will severely complicate the task of finding an opponent. You'd be entering into a low-level, low-profile kind of fight situation and, since you pass, matching you with another inexperienced man would be the thing to do. If you disclose being Trans, they might be obligated to match you against a cis woman, which would require you to more or less "perform" being a woman for the fight (you'd likely have to wear a sports bra, for example, and you'd be referred to as a woman by the announcer, etc.) That said, many people come and train in Thailand without fighting and have wonderful and fulfilling experiences. But it's also a much more straight forward opportunity for you to get to fight than if you try to do so in the West.

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    • Translation:  (Continued from the previous edition (page?) … However, before being matched against Phadejsuk in the Royal Boxing program for His Majesty [Rama IX], The two had faced each other once before [in 1979]. At that time, a foreign boxer had already been booked to face Narongnoi, and the fight would happen regardless of who wins the fight between Narongnoi and Phadejsuk. … That foreign boxer was Toshio Fujiwara, a Japanese boxer who became a Muay Thai champion, the first foreign champion. He took the title from Monsawan Lukchiangmai in Tokyo, then he came to Thailand to defend the title against Sripae Kiatsompop and lost in a way that many Thai viewers saw that he shouldn’t have lost(?). Fujiwara therefore tried to prove himself again with any famous Nak Muay available. Mr. Montree Mongkolsawat, a promoter at Rajadamnern Stadium, decided to have Narongnoi Kiatbandit defeat the reckless Fujiwara on February 6, the following month. It was good then that Narongnoi had lost to Phadejsuk as it made him closer in form to the Japanese boxer. If he had beaten Phadejsuk, it would have been a lopsided matchup. The news of the clash between Narongnoi and Toshio Fujiawara, the great Samurai from Japan had been spread heavily through the media without any embellishments. The fight was naturally popular as the hit/punch(?) of that spirited Samurai made the hearts of Thai people itch(?). Is the first foreign Champion as skilled as they say? It was still up to debate as Fujiwara had defeated “The Golden Leg” Pudpadnoi Worawut by points beautifully at Lumpinee Stadium in 1978, and before that, he had already defeated Prayut Sittibunlert and knocked out Sripae Kaitsompop in Japan, so he became a hero that Japanese people admired, receiving compliments from fans one after another(?). Thus the fight became more than just about skills. It was (advertised as?) a battle between nations by the organizing team, consisting of promoter Montree Mongkolsawat, Somchai Sriwattanachai representing the “Daily Times(?),” Mahapet of “Muay Thai” magazine, and Palad of “Boxing” magazine were also present, and they named the show in a very cool(?) way, “The Battle of the Fierce Samurai.” Even “The Smiling Tiger of Ayothaya” Narongnoi who was never afraid or shaken was affected by the advertising, confessing to the media that he felt a little scared, unlike usual when he faced other Thai boxers like himself. “Why are you scared?” “Maybe because the opponent is a foreigner. There’s news that he is very talented.”  “So you’re afraid that if you lose to him in our own home, it will give us a bad name and be very shameful for you.” “Yes! But my heart knows that I can’t lose because I am fighting in my own country. And in any case, he probably won’t/wouldn’t be better than our boxers. “But he has defeated many of our famous boxers such as Pudpadnoi-Prayut-Sripae. To tell the truth, he must be considered a top boxer in our country.” “Yes, I know” Narongnoi admitted, “but Pudpadnoi could not be considered to be in fresh form as he had been declining for many years and could only defeat Wangprai Rotchanasongkram the fight before(?). [Fujiwara] fought Prayut and Sripae in Japan. Once they stepped on stage there, they were already at a huge disadvantage. I trained especially well for this fight, so if I lose to Fujiwara, my name will be gone(?) as well.” “The Battle of the Fierce Samurai” was postponed from February 6 to February 12, but Thai boxing fans were still very excited about this matchup, wanting to see with their own eyes how good the spirited Japanese boxer was, and wanted to see Narongnoi declare the dignity(?) of Thai boxers decisively with a neck kick, or fold the Japanese fighter with a knee. Win in a way that will make Thai people feel satisfied.   [Photo description] Narongnoi Kiatbandit used his strength to attack Fujiwara, a fake Muay Thai fighter until Fujiwara lost on points.   Fujiwara flew to Bangkok 2-3 days before the fight. The organizers of the show had prepared an open workout for him at Rajadamnern Stadium for advertising purposes. Many press reporters and boxing fans crowded together to see Fujiwara. Their annoyance increased as all he did for three rounds was punch the air [shadowboxing], jump rope, and warm up with physical exercises. After finishing the first three rounds, he was asked to put on gloves and do two rounds of sparring with a person who was already dressed and waiting. However, Fujiwara’s doctor told him that it was unnecessary. This time he had come to defeat a Thai boxer, not to perform for the show. Photographers shook their heads and carried their empty cameras back to their printing houses, one after another. In addition to measuring the prestige of the two nations, the fight between Narongnoi and Fujiwara was also wagered on, with a budget of 1 million baht. Narongnoi was at 3-2 in odds, and someone had prepared money to bet on the Japanese underdog, almost a million baht. Only “Hia Lao” Klaew Thanikul, who had just entered the boxing world, would bet 500,000 baht alone, and the Japanese side would only bet a few hundred thousand. The only person who truly bet on Narongnoi’s side was Chu Chiap Te-Chabanjerd or Kwang Joker, the leader of the “Joker” group, supported by Sgt. Chai Phongsupa. The others could not bet because the Japanese side ran out of money to bet on. Narongnoi’s disadvantage would be that it would be the first time that he will fight at 134 lbs. However, he would have youth and strength on his side, as well as having trained Muay Thai in Thailand(?). Narongnoi was only 22 years old, while Fujiwara was already 33. His 33 years did not seem to be a concern in terms of strength as he had trained very well and never knew the word “exhaustion.” Fujiwara had an abundance of endurance, to the extent that the Japanese could trust him completely on this issue. Yes [krap], when the day came, Rajadamnern Stadium was packed with boxing fans of all ages. The entrance fee was set at 100-200 and 400 baht per person, and the total raised was over 900,000 baht, less than ten thousand baht short of reaching the million baht mark. This means that the number of viewers was more than double that of the special events (200-400 baht per person) nowadays. Even though it was more exciting than any other fight in the past, Narongnoi Kiatbandit, the 130 lbs champion, was able to completely extinguish Toshio Fujiwara by throwing his left leg to the ribs every now and then. This made “the Samurai” unable to turn the odds(?) in time because Narongnoi would always stifle him. Fujiwara could only rely on his physical fitness and endurance to stand and receive various strikes until his back and shoulders were red with kick marks. After 5 rounds, he lost by a landslide, with no chance to fight back at all. Most of the audience was pleased, but there were some who complained that Narongnoi should have won by knockout, which was not easy as Fujiwara had already established that he was the best in Tokyo. If it were any other Japanese boxer, it would be certain that he would not have survived. “Am BangOr” wrote in the “Circle of Thoughts" column(?) of the boxing newspaper at that time: “Then the truth came out to show that Toshio Fujiwara was not really that good at Muay Thai. He was beaten by Narongnoi Kiatbandit who only used his left leg. Fujiwara was frozen, bouncing back and forth with the force of his leg, and he lost by a landslide... The only thing worth admiring about this Sun Warrior is his endurance and excellent durability. For someone at the age of 33 like him to be able to stand and take Narongnoi's kicks like that, he must be considered quite strong. Why, then, did other Thai boxers lose to him? Monsawan-Sriprae-Pudpadnoi-Worawut have all helped strengthen this Japanese boxer. The answer is that their readiness was not enough(?). This victory of Narongnoi is considered to be the erasing of the old beliefs that were stuck in the hearts of Thais who were afraid that Japan would become the master of Thai boxing. It will probably be a long time and it will be difficult as long as Thai boxers can maintain our identity. But we cannot be complacent. If we are arrogant and think that the Japanese will not give up, we Thais may be hurt again because they will not give up. If we make a mistake today, he will have to find a way to make up for it tomorrow."
    • Sylvie wrote a really cool article about why sparring escalates, even when people are trying to go light. A gem from 10 years ago. https://8limbsus.com/blog/brain-science-sparring-gets-control-neurology-muay-thai
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