Best Recovery Advice For Full Time Training in Thailand

[LengLeng]

I'm curious to hear about what people do to recover. I believe in regular training and definitely into the "there is no overtraining only under recovery"-approach. However due to not getting proper recovery, mainly not enough sleep, I've struggled with all kinds of illness, fatigue and muscle strains. But to go to the gym 6 days a week even if I'm tired and fatigued has its wins and helps me to learn. And to battle my own mind. 

Sleep seems to be number one parallel to nutrition. Enough protein seems to be key for me. And warm showers after sessions. I can't say a particular supplement other than BCAA has done any magic trick. 

But I also do a lot of massage and have done regular chiropractic treatments in the past. I'm a yogic and used to do do a lot of yoga. When I stopped (because muay thai took over my life) my body felt it, getting stiffer more prone to injuries etc. and instead I opt for weekly thai massage and sauna. I've received the expert advice that body work (massage and the likes) is great for getting the muscles in order, the way they move under the skin etc. 

But I'm also constantly being told by trainers and fellow students to not get a thai massage more than 2/monthly. Because of toxins being released and so on. But massage has really helped me with my muscle issues. And it "feels" right. 

Curious to hear other people's views. 

[Tyler Byers]

3 hours ago, LengLeng said:

But I'm also constantly being told by trainers and fellow students to not get a thai massage more than 2/monthly. Because of toxins being released and so on.

Hahaha what? My view is that this is stupid advice lol. That's just my opinion though. If you are drinking lots of water, moving constantly, and sweating a lot then all that stuff should get flushed right out of your system anyway. Not to mention if you are getting massage done regularly, you won't get a build up of toxins in the first place. I will say that I think more than once a week may provide marginal results for physical recovery, but if its relaxing and you can afford it then why not? My body is a complete trainwreck, regular massage is the only thing that keeps it all together. (Edit: After reading Sylvie's post, I thought I should mention that I usually get 1 hour of foot massage, and then I do an hour Thai massage after that if my body is really banged up. I never get oil massage for a few different reasons. Typically its just my legs that get tight from Muay Thai and running though, if I take care of my feet/legs then everything else stays more relaxed.)

I have mixed feelings on sauna being beneficial (dry sauna/steam room anyway, pools of water are different), but personally I like it. For me that helps release a bit of stress, and a little extra sweat never hurt anybody. I try and stretch in the steam room and then rub ice all over my body afterwards. Virgin Active has a pretty sweet ice room that I like to jump into between sauna sessions (I do hot for 10 min, then ice room for 5-10 min).

Edited July 4, 2019 by Tyler Byers

[Sylvie von Duuglas-Ittu]

2 hours ago, LengLeng said:

also constantly being told by trainers and fellow students to not get a thai massage more than 2/monthly. Because of toxins being released and so on. But massage has really helped me with my muscle issues. And it "feels" right. 

Curious to hear other people's views. 

I get oil massages regularly, sometimes opting for just foot/leg, and only occasionally get the Thai massages. But for the same reasons you get the Thai massage, which is that it "feels right" for me. A Thai massage makes me feel like I've been run over by a truck, but an oil massage (which I still prefer to be quite hard) can make me feel more loose the next day in my movements... or it can make me feel like I have the flu. So, I'm not sure if it's a frequency thing, a hormone thing, a release of toxins thing, or just chance on how I'll feel. I do them anyway. The sauna makes me exhausted the next day, but I also think it's really good for me.

I use meditation as part of my daily practice, but for me recovery is daily practice also, so I'll lump them together. Clearing out my mind absolutely makes huge differences in how my body feels. Or at least how I respond to how my body feels. 

Dieselnoi advised me to soak my feet in warm salt water before sleep, so when I remember to do that I will. I don't feel huge differences, but I do think my sleep is a little bit more sound when I do that. I use blue light blocking glasses after sunset, to get my melatonin production regulated, also to help with sleep. Napping is amazing, if that's a possibility. Some days there's no time. Some days I just can't get to sleep in the middle of the day.

I heard this woman on a podcast and have just bought her book, you can check that out here: https://www.runnersworld.com/news/a26146682/good-to-go-science-behind-recovery/

[LengLeng]

9 hours ago, Tyler Byers said:

Not to mention if you are getting massage done regularly, you won't get a build up of toxins in the first place. 

THIS definitely makes a lot of sense. Thanks!

[LengLeng]

9 hours ago, Sylvie von Duuglas-Ittu said:

I use meditation as part of my daily practice, but for me recovery is daily practice also, so I'll lump them together. Clearing out my mind absolutely makes huge differences in how my body feels. Or at least how I respond to how my body feels. 

 

Oh yes of course meditation. Most simplest thing to do, hardest to stick to. 

 

9 hours ago, Sylvie von Duuglas-Ittu said:

Dieselnoi advised me to soak my feet in warm salt water before sleep, so when I remember to do that I will. I don't feel huge differences, but I do think my sleep is a little bit more sound when I do that. I use blue light blocking glasses after sunset, to get my melatonin production regulated, also to help with sleep. Napping is amazing, if that's a possibility. Some days there's no time. Some days I just can't get to sleep in the middle of the day.

I heard this woman on a podcast and have just bought her book, you can check that out here: https://www.runnersworld.com/news/a26146682/good-to-go-science-behind-recovery/

I have used epsom salt soaks a lot in the past due to sleep issues and trying to learn some wim hoff techniques. Where do you get epsom salt in Thailand? Or you just use regular salt? I wear glasses in the evening and bluelight glasses do not work with that but I use filters on my phone, but I am pretty sure I get way too much bluelight. For melatonin regulation Dr Jack Kruse (bit of an asshole on social media but also a genius) has interesting ideas on letting sunlight hit the retina in morning https://jackkruse.com/time-10-can-you-supplement-sunlight/

Thanks so much for the link, very interesting and I might go for her book as well. 

[Tyler Byers]

1 hour ago, LengLeng said:

For melatonin regulation Dr Jack Kruse (bit of an asshole on social media but also a genius) has interesting ideas on letting sunlight hit the retina in morning

The VA uses this to treat melatonin regulation and also depression so there probably has been some clinical research done on this. They make special lamps for indoor use too in case you don't have access to regular sunlight. I used to have one but couldn't really tell you if I noticed a difference or not. I was also taking 10,000 IBU of Vitamin D a day and handfuls of SSRIs/Antipsychotics so my brain was pretty much soup at that point lol.

I like the Wim Hoff techniques. Anecdotal but I feel like they help make you stronger mentally if you are using them in conjunction with freezing cold water. Forcing yourself to overcome uncomfortable situations can mentally take you a long way.

[LengLeng]

8 hours ago, Tyler Byers said:

The VA uses this to treat melatonin regulation and also depression so there probably has been some clinical research done on this. They make special lamps for indoor use too in case you don't have access to regular sunlight. 

Yes for sure, sunlight and correction of circadian rhythms and treatment of depression and what have you not is well researched. Jack Kruse takes it one step further though . Interesting stuff. 

[Tyler Byers]

3 hours ago, LengLeng said:

Jack Kruse takes it one step further though . Interesting stuff. 

I didn't have a chance to read through it earlier, but I'll try and give it a shot if I have some time this weekend. I can always use more info on anything regarding sleep or depression. My sleep has gotten a lot better over the last decade, but I still only make it about 60-75 min at a time without waking up. Lol I've mostly given up at this point, but it would be nice to see what true recovery sleep would feel like. 

[Sylvie von Duuglas-Ittu]

On 7/5/2019 at 9:36 AM, LengLeng said:

I have used epsom salt soaks a lot in the past due to sleep issues and trying to learn some wim hoff techniques. Where do you get epsom salt in Thailand?

There's a pharmacy in Pattaya that sells it, but it's CRAZY expensive. I think they intend it to be consumed for a laxative or something, given how tiny the portions are that they're selling. So I buy mine online. You can just google and find Lazada or iHerb or various other sources. Not too expensive, but definitely not the drug-store prices I'm used to in the States.

[LengLeng]

6 hours ago, Sylvie von Duuglas-Ittu said:

There's a pharmacy in Pattaya that sells it, but it's CRAZY expensive. I think they intend it to be consumed for a laxative or something, given how tiny the portions are that they're selling. So I buy mine online. You can just google and find Lazada or iHerb or various other sources. Not too expensive, but definitely not the drug-store prices I'm used to in the States.

In Germany it's the same, it's called Bittersalz for laxative or similar and it's 5 euro for 250g. I'll check out Lazaada.

[LengLeng]

On 7/5/2019 at 10:50 PM, Tyler Byers said:

I didn't have a chance to read through it earlier, but I'll try and give it a shot if I have some time this weekend. I can always use more info on anything regarding sleep or depression. My sleep has gotten a lot better over the last decade, but I still only make it about 60-75 min at a time without waking up. Lol I've mostly given up at this point, but it would be nice to see what true recovery sleep would feel like. 

Hey. No sleep I hear ya. It's hard to give advice to insomniacs because usually they tried everything (being one of them I know). I had people asking me: oh bad sleep did you try black out curtains and earplugs? And I'm like dude: you tried being up 40 hours feeling your brain fall apart and then crash only to find yourself wide awake after 4 hours? Obviously I tried everything.

But here's one of those questions. Weighted blanket tried those? I have one, it's a budget version filled with pellets. But it helped me a bit so I'm considering investing in a gravity blanket. 

[Tyler Byers]

57 minutes ago, LengLeng said:

But here's one of those questions. Weighted blanket tried those?

I actually have not tried these before, I only heard about them recently. I get super hot when I sleep so I'm afraid that will just make it worse. I might give it a shot though if I can find one for a decent price. I can probably buy one off Lazada. Hahaha you are definitely right though, I've tried pretty much everything. Insomnia is a serious pain in the ass.

[LengLeng]

43 minutes ago, Tyler Byers said:

I actually have not tried these before, I only heard about them recently. I get super hot when I sleep so I'm afraid that will just make it worse. I might give it a shot though if I can find one for a decent price. I can probably buy one off Lazada. Hahaha you are definitely right though, I've tried pretty much everything. Insomnia is a serious pain in the ass.

It doesn't make you hotter in my experience. Obviously feels warmer than just a sheet, but no different from a regular blanket. It can also be used while chilling and not sleeping. It calms me down somewhat, makes me feel grounded. 

[Tyler Byers]

Oh great! I'll try and find one tomorrow, thanks!

 

[Jeremy Stewart]

21 hours ago, Tyler Byers said:

I actually have not tried these before, I only heard about them recently. I get super hot when I sleep so I'm afraid that will just make it worse. I might give it a shot though if I can find one for a decent price. I can probably buy one off Lazada. Hahaha you are definitely right though, I've tried pretty much everything. Insomnia is a serious pain in the ass.

I'm like you, Tyler. I read your description of your sleep. I'd be lucky if my sleep totalled 4 hours. I sleepmpretty hot too, it's winter here, if you can call Queensland's winter a winter, but I still manage to sweat the bed out every night.

[LengLeng]

3 hours ago, Jeremy Stewart said:

I'm like you, Tyler. I read your description of your sleep. I'd be lucky if my sleep totalled 4 hours. I sleepmpretty hot too, it's winter here, if you can call Queensland's winter a winter, but I still manage to sweat the bed out every night.

Ever considered the chili pad? A mattress thing you can use to either cool bed down or make it warmer. Obviously expensive but might be worth the investment. Available on Amazon. 

I've been lucky to have worked with some great European sleep scientists and you might be familiar already, but only things that are scientifically proven (or where's there supporting evidence) to work longterm is either sleep reduction therapy (ideally combined with group CBT) and/or SSRIs. You need a proper health insurance for this though. And of course, best case scenario: sleep lab first to rule out any physical reasons for bad sleep like sleep apnea, restless legs syndrome etc. But sleep reduction therapy can be done alone without doc. It's about correcting circadian rhythms and increase sleep pressure and make sure time spent in bed is spent sleeping. Nothing needed but pen and paper and a lot of discipline. Hoping I'm not telling you things you already know now. Happy to provide links if needed. 

 

[Jeremy Stewart]

19 hours ago, LengLeng said:

Ever considered the chili pad? A mattress thing you can use to either cool bed down or make it warmer. Obviously expensive but might be worth the investment. Available on Amazon. 

I've been lucky to have worked with some great European sleep scientists and you might be familiar already, but only things that are scientifically proven (or where's there supporting evidence) to work longterm is either sleep reduction therapy (ideally combined with group CBT) and/or SSRIs. You need a proper health insurance for this though. And of course, best case scenario: sleep lab first to rule out any physical reasons for bad sleep like sleep apnea, restless legs syndrome etc. But sleep reduction therapy can be done alone without doc. It's about correcting circadian rhythms and increase sleep pressure and make sure time spent in bed is spent sleeping. Nothing needed but pen and paper and a lot of discipline. Hoping I'm not telling you things you already know now. Happy to provide links if needed. 

 

Thank you. I haven't done much research. I think a reset of my circadian rhythms would help. Years of  night shift really threw my sleep out of wack. Chronic back pain etc doesn't help. Through into the mix interstate truck driving and you've got a recipe for bad sleep. I truly don't believe there's much that could be done to improve my sleep unless the aches and pains lessen.

[Tyler Byers]

4 hours ago, Jeremy Stewart said:

I truly don't believe there's much that could be done to improve my sleep unless the aches and pains lessen.

I actually think this is kind of my main issue as well. I've got all sort of stuff wrong with two different sections of my back and then also my neck. Staying in shape definitely helps though. If I haven't worked out in a while (which is where I am at right now), it seems to be worse and harder to sleep for any real length of time.

[StefanZ]

Lotsa antioxidants of different types must be useful during heavy continuous training...

[LengLeng]

8 hours ago, StefanZ said:

Lotsa antioxidants of different types must be useful during heavy continuous training...

Actually a lot of people will tell you the opposite. That muscle repair requires some oxidation, especially if you try to build muscles. I take buffered vit C in the morning though. 

[Jeremy Stewart]

17 hours ago, Tyler Byers said:

I actually think this is kind of my main issue as well. I've got all sort of stuff wrong with two different sections of my back and then also my neck. Staying in shape definitely helps though. If I haven't worked out in a while (which is where I am at right now), it seems to be worse and harder to sleep for any real length of time.

Absolutely mate, if I don't train I am in way worse pain than if I do. I'd do just about anything for a decent nights sleep.

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

20 hours ago, Tyler Byers said:

I've got all sort of stuff wrong with two different sections of my back and then also my neck.

I know you've tried a million things, so just another one to throw out there. This is for shoulder injury, and has really worked for Sylvie, but if its theory is correct it might help across all neck and back issues (the idea is that we are built to hang and swing): Hanging Theory.

The good thing about it is that it is only a couple of minutes a day and is pretty basic (no learning curve).

Other things we've tried is blue light filter glasses on sundown (it's a bitch to remember to do this) to get the sleep cycle started, and Sylvie's got some very good sleep mask thing that kept being advertised on Facebook, locking out light. Sorry if these were discussed above, just popping into the discussion.

[Tyler Byers]

1 hour ago, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

I know you've tried a million things, so just another one to throw out there. This is for shoulder injury, and has really worked for Sylvie, but if its theory is correct it might help across all neck and back issues (the idea is that we are built to hang and swing): Hanging Theory.

The good thing about it is that it is only a couple of minutes a day and is pretty basic (no learning curve).

Other things we've tried is blue light filter glasses on sundown (it's a bitch to remember to do this) to get the sleep cycle started, and Sylvie's got some very good sleep mask thing that kept being advertised on Facebook, locking out light. Sorry if these were discussed above, just popping into the discussion.

This is actually one of the few things I have done that does really help. I do it every time I go to Virgin Active for as long as my grip strength allows it. I try to do it at home too in kind of a modified position (I'll use the sides of a door frame and kind of sit my hips down). The decompression in general really helps. I'd like to get something for my neck too, but this definitely helps both my shoulders and mid back a lot. Great resource!

Edit: Forgot to add something else that I have found really helps is using a pole or broom stick to do rotations around my torso and also from back to front. This guys has a pretty good video here: 

 

Edited July 10, 2019 by Tyler Byers