Women fighting & training - how do you feel, similarities and differences with men.

[threeoaks]

I’d be curious to hear from the coaches in particular how they see differences in male & female athletes, and also what are the main similarities.  I ask this here rather than Sherdog or Reddit cause I’m not begging for an earful of sexism, more an open field of experience & opinion from both men & women & also non-binary people if you’re here.

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

Maybe Kaitlin will hop on, I think she is fighting today or tomorrow, but is a coach and has thought a lot about this I believe. What are your thoughts or intuitions?

[Jeremy Stewart]

In all of my years associated with the martial arts, there have always been women involved either as instructors or students. Each and everyone of them has/had the respect of the class. I don't know what it's like in other parts of the world, but I've always found martial training, be it Karate or Muay Thai to be a pretty even playing field where you earn your respect regardless of sex. At least that's been my experience. Bare in mind, I come from Queensland and in American terms we were and still are considered rednecks. Of course there has been the occasional knob head, both male and female but they have usually left of their own accord or have been asked to leave.

As a teacher,  I have one particular female student whom three months ago wasn't very confident in herself. She's a naturally big person. Anyway she could not kick higher than halfway up her own shin height. Now, she's kicking almost to head height,  she's 6'1". She feels more confident in herself and the secret to bringing her out of shell was something I learned from Sylvie. Try not try, let things just flow.

I do think in general, women are more eager to please and seem more attentive in regards to learning.

Edited June 5, 2019 by Jeremy Stewart
Forgot a line

[threeoaks]

5 hours ago, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

Maybe Kaitlin will hop on, I think she is fighting today or tomorrow, but is a coach and has thought a lot about this I believe. What are your thoughts or intuitions?

Would love it if Kaitlin will hop on and will be watching her fight!  My thoughts & intuitions are kind of a constant stream, actually.  I know its a general question but I am doing a show in NYC that includes a ladies MT fight night and this will result in people asking me why I think women ought to do martial arts in general, Muay Thai in particular.  These will be people hostile to the idea of violence generally.  For myself, I usually adore the women in my gyms, because there is less coquetry and more directness.  Twice though, I've had another woman try and throw me under the bus to be the "favorite student" with the male coach - that's fun lol.  So I am just searching for thoughts and impressions.  I actually hate generalizations and think the cloud of socialization is so powerful (habitus) in developing gender roles that its difficult to find what is real and what is just driven by social needs, but all, in the end are real so I am just trying to trace patterns.  Thanks.

[threeoaks]

2 hours ago, Jeremy Stewart said:

In all of my years associated with the martial arts, there have always been women involved either as instructors or students. Each and everyone of them has/had the respect of the class. I don't know what it's like in other parts of the world, but I've always found martial training, be it Karate or Muay Thai to be a pretty even playing field where you earn your respect regardless of sex. At least that's been my experience. Bare in mind, I come from Queensland and in American terms we were and still are considered rednecks. Of course there has been the occasional knob head, both male and female but they have usually left of their own accord or have been asked to leave.

As a teacher,  I have one particular female student whom three months ago wasn't very confident in herself. She's a naturally big person. Anyway she could not kick higher than halfway up her own shin height. Now, she's kicking almost to head height,  she's 6'1". She feels more confident in herself and the secret to bringing her out of shell was something I learned from Sylvie. Try not try, let things just flow.

I do think in general, women are more eager to please and seem more attentive in regards to learning.

Jeremy thank you.  I am interested to read that the schools are generally egalitarian in Queensland.  I am back East in the US, and grew up out West (which is probably culturally more like Queensland).  I love the story of your big woman.  OMG.  I am very tall too and its strange being a bigger woman - you are constantly challenged on your gender (as many muscley women of all sizes are; I reckon Sylvie has written about this).  Three months and a huge difference!  You must be a great coach.  

[Josephine (Jojo) Kim]

6 hours ago, Jeremy Stewart said:

In all of my years associated with the martial arts, there have always been women involved either as instructors or students. Each and everyone of them has/had the respect of the class. I don't know what it's like in other parts of the world, but I've always found martial training, be it Karate or Muay Thai to be a pretty even playing field where you earn your respect regardless of sex. At least that's been my experience. Bare in mind, I come from Queensland and in American terms we were and still are considered rednecks. Of course there has been the occasional knob head, both male and female but they have usually left of their own accord or have been asked to leave.

As a teacher,  I have one particular female student whom three months ago wasn't very confident in herself. She's a naturally big person. Anyway she could not kick higher than halfway up her own shin height. Now, she's kicking almost to head height,  she's 6'1". She feels more confident in herself and the secret to bringing her out of shell was something I learned from Sylvie. Try not try, let things just flow.

I do think in general, women are more eager to please and seem more attentive in regards to learning.

I agree with Jeremy - in general women are more eager to please and seem more attentive to learning (this goes for the academic classroom as well). I would say this may be the case across most personalities in women, even with shy individuals who do not express themselves as loudly with their voice.

In Taiwan, I was and under-10yo children’s kickboxing and BJJ assistant coach. The girl:boy ratio was always 1:10, or something like that. Of course there are cultural differences, but in general, I still noticed the girls were very quiet and not as vocal as the boys. Yet, it was clear they wanted to learn (for example, they would try to correct their technique when I pointed something out). The main coach always had me work with the girls and the newcomers as the only female assistant coach. So, I got to see how they grew over time too. 

One girl was always down to spar bc she would willingly and literally walk up to challenge. She “became more aggressive,” or stood her ground when she was in the center of the ring to spar with everyone watching, but still no screaming or crazy sounds, like the boys. Another girl was always more hesitant, but would go up since I constantly yelled, “You can do it!” As time went on, the girls seemed to become more normalized to the procedure of getting over nerves and going on their own. I think the mad cheering helped them because they were receptive and eager to please.

The boys were objectively more talkative and “silly.” Even the “leader types” goofed off more than the girls. While they knew when to be serious and work hard, but they seemed to enjoy a flexibility of seriousness-playfulness as a child. I saw less of this behavioral breadth in the girls. This is just my general observation. There were some shy boys too, but the more extroverted personality traits were dominant amongst the males (also given the highly unbalanced gender ratio). 

At this age, there is not too much “sweetheart of the gym” present. Sometimes fitness-goal-centered gyms have this issue amongst adults. I can feel competition in the air to be “seen” by the male coaches or men in the room. But in serious gyms that train to fight, this dynamic is not as common. Women are usually THRILLED to have other women fighters step into the space and work with them. Occasionally, I would hear from female friends that this dynamic is going even in serious gyms. Even though, I am one to be sensitive to gender dynamics, I was surprised because I was unaware. So despite the gym space itself, perhaps the experience for women will still vary per individual. I can on, but I’ll stop here for now haha.

[threeoaks]

33 minutes ago, Josephine (Jojo) Kim said:

I agree with Jeremy - in general women are more eager to please and seem more attentive to learning (this goes for the academic classroom as well).

One girl was always down to spar bc she would willingly and literally walk up to challenge. She “became more aggressive,” or stood her ground when she was in the center of the ring to spar with everyone watching, but still no screaming or crazy sounds, like the boys. Another girl was always more hesitant, but would go up since I constantly yelled, “You can do it!” 

First, this is exactly what I am interested in - nice to know how it works beyond my little East Coast America frame.  So the Taiwan point of view is interesting and makes sense.  I love imagining you yelling "you can do it" OMG.  The best.

 

33 minutes ago, Josephine (Jojo) Kim said:

they seemed to enjoy a flexibility of seriousness-playfulness as a child. I saw less of this behavioral breadth in the girls. This is just my general observation.

Incredible and well put.

 

33 minutes ago, Josephine (Jojo) Kim said:

 

 

 

At this age, there is not too much “sweetheart of the gym” present. Sometimes fitness-goal-centered gyms have this issue amongst adults. I can feel competition in the air to be “seen” by the male coaches or men in the room. But in serious gyms that train to fight, this dynamic is not as common. Women are usually THRILLED to have other women fighters step into the space and work with them. 

Thanks that is a very helpful distinction in sorting out my own two minor but annoying experiences.  Both women were more fitness oriented people even though damn, they are adults (one is at my karate gym, the other was at Western boxing). Nobody does this at my Muay Thai gym.  NOBODY.  You are so right - no real fighters ever look the gift horse of being able to punch me in the mouth, in the mouth! Thanks again!

[Coach James Poidog]

Ive tended to have maybe a little more male students than female in general. The only real difference Ive seen is that as a whole the female students are harder workers, put more attention into their training than men. Personally I love my female students because of this. Recent example is a youth students who just started 2months ago and is already the equal of males in her class that have been training twice as long. Honestly shes a joy to have in my class and because of it definitely geta extra attention from me (as any student like her, male or female, would). Some of my best students and fighters have been female. 

[threeoaks]

2 hours ago, Coach James Poidog said:

Ive tended to have maybe a little more male students than female in general. The only real difference Ive seen is that as a whole the female students are harder workers, put more attention into their training than men. Personally I love my female students because of this. Recent example is a youth students who just started 2months ago and is already the equal of males in her class that have been training twice as long. Honestly shes a joy to have in my class and because of it definitely geta extra attention from me (as any student like her, male or female, would). Some of my best students and fighters have been female. 

So great.  My coach tells me a similar thing - its just so rewarding to be listened to, and the female ego seems to be different.  That said I think it takes a strong male ego to be coachable at all, so it speaks well of you that you have many male fighters.  Thanks James.

 

[threeoaks]

3 hours ago, Coach James Poidog said:

Recent example is a youth students who just started 2months ago and is already the equal of males in her class that have been training twice as long. Honestly shes a joy to have in my class and because of it definitely geta extra attention from me (as any student like her, male or female, would). 

Are you suggesting sometimes female students, because they work harder, might get more focused attention from coaches leading to the weirdness I mentioned above ("Daddy look at ME" type of competitiveness)?  Perhaps it is not a behavior that you notice, or maybe its as Jojo says and only the fitness types that do this.  

Edited June 5, 2019 by threeoaks

[Coach James Poidog]

40 minutes ago, threeoaks said:

Are you suggesting sometimes female students, because they work harder, might get more focused attention from coaches leading to the weirdness I mentioned above ("Daddy look at ME" type of competitiveness)?  Perhaps it is not a behavior that you notice, or maybe its as Jojo says and only the fitness types that do this.  

No Im not suggesting that at all. Im saying what I said, what I notice in my experience. If I were to think of it, I didnt ever notice anything like that. If anything it could just be a hyper competitiveness to be better than or equal to the men. I just know in general they worked harder. I say in general because I had male students just as dedicated but I also had male students that were lackadaisical in there training, where as almost none of the female students were like this.  

[threeoaks]

3 minutes ago, Coach James Poidog said:

No Im not suggesting that at all. Im saying what I said, what I notice in my experience. If I were to think of it, I didnt ever notice anything like that. If anything it could just be a hyper competitiveness to be better than or equal to the men. I just know in general they worked harder. I say in general because I had male students just as dedicated but I also had male students that were lackadaisical in there training, where as almost none of the female students were like this.  

Got ya.

[Coach James Poidog]

45 minutes ago, threeoaks said:

Are you suggesting sometimes female students, because they work harder, might get more focused attention from coaches leading to the weirdness I mentioned above ("Daddy look at ME" type of competitiveness)?  Perhaps it is not a behavior that you notice, or maybe its as Jojo says and only the fitness types that do this.  

I think the weirdness, as far as adults goes, might come from sexuality and "sexual tension" between men and women. Thats just not something that happens with me but I have witnessed it between students when I pair them up to train. I try hard to make sure people understand that in the art we are equal. I tend to emphasize it due to how I teach the art which is less about power in general and more about technique which transcends physical power. Im not big on my students and fighters relying on power to win and more about being able to beat power with other aspects all people have. 

[threeoaks]

2 minutes ago, Coach James Poidog said:

I think the weirdness, as far as adults goes, might come from sexuality and "sexual tension" between men and women. Thats just not something that happens with me but I have witnessed it between students when I pair them up to train. I try hard to make sure people understand that in the art we are equal. I tend to emphasize it due to how I teach the art which is less about power in general and more about technique which transcends physical power. Im not big on my students and fighters relying on power to win and more about being able to beat power with other aspects all people have. 

Yes that makes sense regarding the sexuality business.  And I love what you say about technique over power.

[Coach James Poidog]

2 hours ago, threeoaks said:

 And I love what you say about technique over power.

I genuinely believe it. How else can smaller people beat bigger stronger people? Its the real connector and cross over to traditional martial arts. Sport makes it about all things being even so size is a factor, you cant dismiss it...but you can deal with it. One of my fighters doesnt cut weight so hes always fighting bigger opponents. His last fight he actually cut weight and the dude he fought was still 10lbs over lol. Ended up 15 lbs heavier than my guy fight day. My guy beat him with technique and made dude quit in the third round (knees to the body after two rounds of making sure he kicked him in the body). Size is a factor not a determiner.

[threeoaks]

45 minutes ago, Coach James Poidog said:

I genuinely believe it. How else can smaller people beat bigger stronger people? Its the real connector and cross over to traditional martial arts. Sport makes it about all things being even so size is a factor, you cant dismiss it...but you can deal with it. One of my fighters doesnt cut weight so hes always fighting bigger opponents. His last fight he actually cut weight and the dude he fought was still 10lbs over lol. Ended up 15 lbs heavier than my guy fight day. My guy beat him with technique and made dude quit in the third round (knees to the body after two rounds of making sure he kicked him in the body). Size is a factor not a determiner.

Love that story.  Body body body and good bye!

[Jeremy Stewart]

22 hours ago, threeoaks said:

Jeremy thank you.  I am interested to read that the schools are generally egalitarian in Queensland.  I am back East in the US, and grew up out West (which is probably culturally more like Queensland).  I love the story of your big woman.  OMG.  I am very tall too and its strange being a bigger woman - you are constantly challenged on your gender (as many muscley women of all sizes are; I reckon Sylvie has written about this).  Three months and a huge difference!  You must be a great coach.  

Thank you, Three Oaks. I don't consider myself to be great,  but I do consider myself to be understanding and above all I love teaching people, especially those that don't  fit the norm. Queenslanders are generally laid back and pretty accepting unless of course you're a dickhead, then we let rip. My dream (which I'm attempting to make come to fruition), is to have a school where being the norm is not the norm, so that people (especially those that have trained before, but not limited to) have a place to come and find or rediscover their sense of self worth, especially those like myself that have life changing injuries that they may feel excludes them from training at a regular school. I still train at my original muay thai school, that's my choice and I'm willing to put my body on the line because it makes me feel alive. However, not all people have that same mind set. Thank you again for the compliment 

[threeoaks]

34 minutes ago, Jeremy Stewart said:

My dream (which I'm attempting to make come to fruition), is to have a school where being the norm is not the norm, so that people (especially those that have trained before, but not limited to) have a place to come and find or rediscover their sense of self worth, especially those like myself that have life changing injuries that they may feel excludes them from training at a regular school. 

May your dream come to fruition .  I have a friend and coach who has broken his neck (pro rugby) such that if he takes a blow to the head he’s looking at paralysis.  He mainly does BJJ now (which actually seems more injury prone AND injury friendly, oddly).  I can’t imagine there aren’t risks but you do what you love.  Glad you survived your injury.

[Jeremy Stewart]

45 minutes ago, threeoaks said:

May your dream come to fruition .  I have a friend and coach who has broken his neck (pro rugby) such that if he takes a blow to the head he’s looking at paralysis.  He mainly does BJJ now (which actually seems more injury prone AND injury friendly, oddly).  I can’t imagine there aren’t risks but you do what you love.  Glad you survived your injury.

Thank you. It's important not just for me but for others as well. I, like your friend, face the dread of paralysis in whatever I do. My injury was to my back. Just the feeling of being able to do something is so mentally important,  I can't really describe how important. Everyone tends to focus on only the physical part. You get used to pain, you get used to discomfort, but it was my experience that the mental part is the hardest part. It took 18 months to learn how to walk properly again, then comes the frustration of not being able to do the things you used to do, this leads to depressive states of mind.  It's hard to relate the emotional cycles. But I guess what I'm trying to say is, With perseverance and one bit of good advice you can still train. I may not be as proficient as I once was, but I have knowledge and wish to impart that knowledge as I am a firm believer, martial crafts are beneficial first of all physically and as a by product mentally.

Edited June 6, 2019 by Jeremy Stewart
Change art for craft

[Sylvie von Duuglas-Ittu]

I'm not actually sure what you're asking, so I'm just throwing in observations and maybe they're meaningful for what you're pondering and maybe not.

In my personal experience, I've always been either the only woman at the gym, or one of very few women at the gym. The ratio of men to women creates a completely lopsided social arrangement, wherein what role or quality women offer to the gym is heavily obscured by that inequality. In a gym where there are 10-20 men, the competitiveness they have with each other is an entirely different thing than if there were 2 of them, which is the thing women face. I find myself immediately excited by the presence of another women; annoyed and simultaneously happy to almost always be ordered to work with her (annoyed because it's simply our shared gender, happy because we have a shared gender); and disgusted with myself for having an automatic sense of competitiveness. Not competitiveness in the sporting sense, like how men might get to enjoy having a spar to see who's slicker, but competitiveness in the "there are limited social resources here and I now have to protect my hard-earned position" kind of competitiveness. Which is shit. Which is why you get women throwing each other under the bus to be teacher's-pet, or creating cliques when there are only 3 of us, or not being supportive despite there only being fucking 2 of us. And yet, there's a simultaneous support. It's like "frenemy" once someone is there for longer than a few days. It's supportive, the excitement and mutual aid is real, but so is the feeling of a threat.

But I've never come across a feeling that men and women at the gym have markedly different motivations. The feelings of power, personal security, potency, achievement, attractiveness that come from fitness and sport activities feel good to both men and women alike. There's a difference in who feels entitled to those feelings early on, but it kind of evens out over time, I think. Like, men feel badass and claim that feeling way before they actually are, and women claim it way after they've already been labeled that way by others - generally speaking. So, why men and women "should" do martial arts is pretty similar down the gender line: because they like it and it feels good. How they handle when it doesn't feel good seems more divided. Men seem to disappear from the gym when it's difficult or their ego is hurt; women tend to just heap pressure on themselves and put themselves in corners - albeit still working - until someone tells them they're worthy of attention again. At least in Thai gyms, in both these examples the correct thing to do is apologize if there was an infraction, otherwise always just carry on as if nothing at all has ever happened, ever.

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

On 6/6/2019 at 6:29 AM, Coach James Poidog said:

Size is a factor not a determiner.

One of the things that makes Muay Thai beautiful, and perhaps especially made for women. Thais are small, and in the conception of the art is the thought that it is made for the defeat of larger people. Which is kind of how it made me laugh when someone like Kenshin does breakdowns of Muay Thai fighters beating absolutel6 huge opponents, but then imagine that there are fundamental physical inequalities that categorically bar them from being able to handle Male opponents. Yeah, 70 pound differences can be overcome...but "bone density"...hmmm

[Jeremy Stewart]

One of the most stylistically appealing fighters that I have had the pleasure of training with and observing is a young woman about Sylvie's size. When you watch her and then compare her grace and ease to your own efforts, it's like comparing a butterfly to an elephant having a mud bath.

[threeoaks]

5 hours ago, Sylvie von Duuglas-Ittu said:

I'm not actually sure what you're asking, so I'm just throwing in observations and maybe they're meaningful for what you're pondering and maybe not.

In my personal experience, I've always been either the only woman at the gym, or one of very few women at the gym. The ratio of men to women creates a completely lopsided social arrangement, wherein what role or quality women offer to the gym is heavily obscured by that inequality. In a gym where there are 10-20 men, the competitiveness they have with each other is an entirely different thing than if there were 2 of them, which is the thing women face. I find myself immediately excited by the presence of another women; annoyed and simultaneously happy to almost always be ordered to work with her (annoyed because it's simply our shared gender, happy because we have a shared gender); and disgusted with myself for having an automatic sense of competitiveness. Not competitiveness in the sporting sense, like how men might get to enjoy having a spar to see who's slicker, but competitiveness in the "there are limited social resources here and I now have to protect my hard-earned position" kind of competitiveness. Which is shit. Which is why you get women throwing each other under the bus to be teacher's-pet, or creating cliques when there are only 3 of us, or not being supportive despite there only being fucking 2 of us. And yet, there's a simultaneous support. It's like "frenemy" once someone is there for longer than a few days. It's supportive, the excitement and mutual aid is real, but so is the feeling of a threat.

But I've never come across a feeling that men and women at the gym have markedly different motivations. The feelings of power, personal security, potency, achievement, attractiveness that come from fitness and sport activities feel good to both men and women alike. There's a difference in who feels entitled to those feelings early on, but it kind of evens out over time, I think. Like, men feel badass and claim that feeling way before they actually are, and women claim it way after they've already been labeled that way by others - generally speaking. So, why men and women "should" do martial arts is pretty similar down the gender line: because they like it and it feels good. How they handle when it doesn't feel good seems more divided. Men seem to disappear from the gym when it's difficult or their ego is hurt; women tend to just heap pressure on themselves and put themselves in corners - albeit still working - until someone tells them they're worthy of attention again. At least in Thai gyms, in both these examples the correct thing to do is apologize if there was an infraction, otherwise always just carry on as if nothing at all has ever happened, ever.

Sylvie thanks.  I know you have so much writing in the subject and this is a very general question.  One of the reasons I follow you and your fight career is your hyper-consciousness of yourself as a Western female in the Thai context.  You are a voyager not only across cultural lines, but also really across gender lines and i just love how you open up the path for those following you, and credit those before you.  So I feel silly asking you the general question but I appreciate your thoughts.  Your  comparison evokes what I believe - there is a sameness (in motivation), inflected by profound social difference (numbers of fighters and response to ego challenges).  Very succinct and confirms what I observe in a broader general sense.  Having had kids now, everyone expects me to finally sign on the biological gender differences and fine yeah, there are differences.  But I hate biological arguments  - they often break down (compare the level of testosterone in any elite female athlete's body with an ordinary woman's levels and you have what, a more male person?  I don't accept this silly line of reasoning where a single hormone defines a gender).  Attitude and durability (where the women, in your observation, continue working whereas the males often disappear under durress) are all.  So I always appreciate, deeply, your conscious voyage.   to you for it, all day long.

[threeoaks]

On 6/6/2019 at 7:18 AM, Jeremy Stewart said:

Thank you. It's important not just for me but for others as well. I, like your friend, face the dread of paralysis in whatever I do. My injury was to my back. Just the feeling of being able to do something is so mentally important,  I can't really describe how important. Everyone tends to focus on only the physical part. You get used to pain, you get used to discomfort, but it was my experience that the mental part is the hardest part. It took 18 months to learn how to walk properly again, then comes the frustration of not being able to do the things you used to do, this leads to depressive states of mind.  It's hard to relate the emotional cycles. But I guess what I'm trying to say is, With perseverance and one bit of good advice you can still train. I may not be as proficient as I once was, but I have knowledge and wish to impart that knowledge as I am a firm believer, martial crafts are beneficial first of all physically and as a by product mentally.

Jeremy.  The dread of paralysis, yet you train.  Absolutely inspirational, as is training when you know you are not the same athlete as before.  I experience this daily as a person who is no longer young, but was once an absolute grinder, more than anyone around me.  Much less difficult (aging is after all a privilege since the alternative is death).  But my competitiveness blurgh.. it requires constant simmering down.  Thanks for your example.

[Oliver]

Very tough to know. Don't really like thinking too much when going to training or reading books etc. Only time seeing it from the other side is in yoga class, only time enough to do once a week and not because it's fun. Highly unpleasant but find it necessary. Have bad flexibility and bad overall body strength, and never found any kind of weight training helps. This does. 

People might not like biological arguments but in that room there's no escaping it, the advantage everybody else has in terms of natural hip and leg flexibility.... I mean it's clear as day. If you're a dude, it's basically you and an old guy recovering from an operation, and that's it. First day is like, damn... gonna be humiliating...gonna be treated like we shouldn't be here....look all clunky and rigid. So we just hide in the back and try keep up. 

The truth? Absolutely nobody cares, or even notices us. Over time, just realised it's better not to think about it. You get treated well, given the easier guy-friendly variations of the asanas by the teacher, and have no complaints, and soon forget you're the only 2 guys there. Unless we're told to feel the universe and breath into our bra straps.

Totally different from the Thai gyms back home when starting out. Not only did the overall membership have more girls but half the fight team were girls. And the 2 most experienced girls used to chat about the gym going downhill, saying "Because now the gym has too many girls". For real, that's a quote.

O