threeoaks
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Posts posted by threeoaks
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(This is in reply to the discussion up the thread; didn’t manage a quote because I could not choose which one). In visual art there is most certainly an expectation that the poorer artist will be more “hungry”, “primitive”, “raw talent” & other patronizing terms. Add in race and you have Basquiat as the paradigmatic “poor genius” (meanwhile he was terrifically sophisticated & strategic). The rich artist on the other hand, is the “Sunday Painter” (the expression is an insult referring to dilettantism. It’s not that he only paints on Sunday because he works, quite the contrary, it’s that she only paints on Sunday cause she’s yachting & shopping the rest of the week). Because of mfa programs in the US, which are now legion & terrific money-makers for universities, art is now evermore a playground for the rich & it’s pretty disgusting. Columbia, where I taught a decade, costs @140k without housing etc. so you’re either rich, or your permanently in debt for an art degree. There are many interesting parallels with martial arts. The comfort with violence as a working class phenomenon has a relation to the common expectation that the artist be rough, drug addicted & possibly disturbed (like me as a kid lol). It’s a limiting thing, much like expecting a Thai fighter from the North to express him or herself in a non-intellectual (non-femeu) way.
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I love sparring with my coach the best, and consider it an honor. There is an eerie feeling of course when someone is so far ahead of you (I am a basic student and Muay Thai nerd). But that eerie feeling is magic. I just love that there are levels, forever.
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Oh yes, yes I would. Have to get an art dealer crazy as mine though (don't have one in Britain right now). You never know though!
You wouldn't like to come and hold a similar event in the UK would you?!
Wishing you every bit of good fortune with this venture.
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I'm holding a WKA sanctioned fight night in NYC at the big industrial art gallery where I will show my photography this summer. Its amateur & for ladies only (I post it in general topics in case you have coaches reading this stuff, or friends of female fighters). I'm thinking to do same day weigh-ins and obviously I understand this sort of event will attract your more green fighters. I'm dead serious though, have got my promoter's license and am being guided and assisted by my own coach, JJ Russo of Stockade Muay Thai, and Brian Crenshaw American Pres of WKA. I love Muay Thai and want to provide that platform for more ladies to break in to fighting. I've also done related events at museums before (and have posted elsewhere about it; happy to give more info on my promotional experience generally via dm). If you have been training hard but not sure if you want to break into one of the other shows, try this ladies only safe & WKA sanctioned night. I'm especially looking for the higher weight classes. Thanks for reading and dm me with any questions. I can put your coach in touch with the matchmaker.
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THIS WAS SUCH A SATISFYING FIGHT. I want more Loma. Caitlyn if its you that made this happen - massive thank you.
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I don't know if Natalie ever told you, but --- if I remember correctly --- when she lost a close decision she felt she had won to Julie Kitchen the ref (was it Big John McCarthy, or am I inventing that part of the memory) told her afterwards, something to the order: "Because of your look, you can't expect a win." Sorry for totally screwing up the memory of what she told us a long while ago, but it is was something along those lines. Incredible. The way Natalie told it it was almost as if the guy was telling her this as a consolation.
Jesus. That pisses me off. I was talking with a straight fighter about that thing where "you" (he) watch a female fight and "cannot help but root for the more attractive fighter". What? WHAT?!! This is a person I adore and respect. I was truly shocked. You mean you really cannot see the fight? At all? wtf. I mean he didn't say he could not see the fight; I believe he could score it correctly were he a judge but silly me, I had no idea men watched women fight in that way. I'm so naive sometimes. I knew about tv and UFC and all that shit but the day to day, person to person reality of it always shocks me. I watched all Nat's fights with JK. BTW Natalie is a gorgeous lesbian superstar in my opinion. Just a full on rock star in the NYC 90's gay world. Its so weird that the "look" doesn't translate. I am a little steaming mad at the moment. Stupid. Gonna rewatch the fights for fun now though :) .
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I like what you say, Kevin but I also totally identify with the bummed out feeling Kaitlin describes. In my work career, I have been on both sides of this coin and I'll take people doubting my talent and thinking I got ahead on my looks any time over being ignored cause, fuck it. That little "glam" career push is a very very tight window though (even tighter in fighting, witness the gorgeous Felice Herrig crying at a press conference last year over the reality that at 33 she is "too old" for the UFC to promote. Such an ugly story and she is a champ for being open about it). I take heart in Amanda Nunes' point of view. She's just like "whatever, that's how it is"and goes about her business. I LOVE HER FOR THAT. Acceptance and refocus on what matters to her (to me too).
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Kevin I responded before I read the breadth of your research, and all your thoughts (so it was blithe and short). I can't respond in kind to the density of your thought, but its super fascinating. Of particular interest is the idea that female fighters are in chronic deficit of oxytocin, being structurally outside the male bond of the gym. I've taken to madly trying to build female fighter camaraderie at my small upstate gym. I'm not very outgoing, but I am just fascinated for all sorts of reasons. This helps me think through why. Thanks.
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Perhaps an additional, complicating factor could be histories of abuse or PTSD-type events which could alter one's Oxytocin regulation.
That is fucking crushing.
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Was researching - well, you know, Googling and reading, Googling and reading as you do - the hormone oxytocin, a chemical known to be connected with experiences of bonding, and ran into this very interesting piece of information. Oxytocin and Testosterone are antagonists. Originally I was thinking about how some of the social elements under the influence of oxytocin have been issues of stress in Sylvie's training. As many have pointed out women are often much more motivated by social cues (coach trust, fighting for the team, proving worth) than by powerful antagonisms. I've talked about this with fighter Kaitlin Young, and our discussions definitely came back to me as I was reading the below. What is really interesting, at least from a prospective place of investigation, is that it may be the case that many seriously committed female fighters have elevated testosterone. No expert in this, I'll just hazard that some may have just a higher baseline profile of testosterone than average on the bell curve, and some may have increased levels of testosterone as a matter of their regime and their training. Or a combination of both.
This is the really compelling part. If fighter training (and the selection of women who become fighters) will produce elevated testosterone, and the below is also true, being a fighter as a woman may result in oxytocin suppression. This could be related to the supposed need or difference in motivations reported by female fighters as opposed to male fighters (who have different hormonal profiles and balances).
The relevant part:
"...What you might not know is that most hormones work as antagonists to other hormones. In other words, they can balance each other out. When one is released, it tempers or suppresses the over-production of the other. But if you keep over producing one, it can begin to snuff out the other all together.
Now let's look at some examples. We'll start with my favorite, oxytocin, and its antagonist testosterone. You might think that the antagonist to testosterone would be estrogen, the feminine hormone, balancing the masculine. And to some degree you'd be right. But testosterone is more powerfully antagonistic to oxytocin, the cuddle hormone, the one that makes you go, "Oooo" when we see something cute. Oxytocin is released during the experience or even the witnessing of loving kindness and affectionate touch, even when you see it on TV. It's also called the love hormone, the bonding hormone, as well as acting as a stimulant to contractions during pregnancy/birthing. When oxytocin is released, we feel softer, more nurturing, more cuddly, more loving. It changes our visual and mental perceptions allowing us to see the oneness of all things, the interconnectedness of all of us. For a brief moment, it turns us into right-brained systems thinkers, rather than analytical critics. And if you release enough of it, it allows us to see God. Studies have shown that those with high average levels of oxytocin are more likely to believe in God. So can't we just give people oxytocin directly? Sure, but the half life is only about 3 minutes, meaning the effects fade very quickly.
This brings us back to it's antagonist, testosterone, the masculine and aggressiveness hormone. It's released when a breach of trust occurs, making you even more distrusting. And as it rises, it suppresses oxytocin. That's what makes it a chemical antagonist. And just like the antagonist in a good novel, you need a chemical antagonist to keep things in balance in the body. Testosterone makes you more logical, linear, rational, and more goal oriented. In societies, it's testosterone that keeps an eye out for threats, dangers and free loaders, those who would take up resources while returning nothing to the community.
So oxytocin and testosterone. They are both required in a healthy person and a healthy society or culture. The reason we need the protectiveness of testosterone is that not everyone has a healthy regulation of oxytocin. Both biological diversity and abuse results in some people who have little to no oxytocin (or poor regulation). This misregulation of oxytocin has been linked to conditions as diverse as autism and sociopathy. Needless to say, if your oxytocin never gets released it becomes harder to see the point of being loving. There may be rational reason to get along, but there is no compelling biology that would require it of those with poor oxytocin regulation. And without the biological imperative of oxytocin to be loving, we are decidedly self-centered, short sighted and egotistical. Without oxytocin, our testosterone would cause us to be more fear-based in our decisions, or at best, coldly analytical.
The testosterone that gets released when we argue makes us less trusting, more closed minded. The oxytocin that gets released when we reach out to lovingly understand and forgive makes us more trusting and allows us to see world views we didn't know existed..."
source: Quora
IF there is a causal connection between the increase of testosterone and female fighter training (or selection by population) and there is a bonded antagonism between testosterone and oxytocin, then it would be really important to make sure that there is care taken to keep oxytocin levels in check. Yeah, I know, it sounds stupid. More hugs, more "Great job!'s", more "You're a part of our team!"s, but it may very well be the case that there is a chemical deficit is that is created through training and the ambition of fighting. A coach or a team designing training of female fighters would need to purposively attend to this chemical reality.
Further, female athletes themselves, aside from just generally putting themselves in the "best" or most positive training environments, should probably attend to this hormonal balance in concrete, specific ways. Acknowledge that yes, you are in a regime ostensibly designed to increase testosterone, but this may very well put you in an oxytocin deficit. This means taking active measures to stimulate oxytocin, either outside the gym, or in training itself. Don't be passive to your own states. Your training contexts might not be feeding you the right mix, but you can actively work to caretake. Small things like systematically giving compliments to others, helping instruct others (when it is desired), building team chemistry between partners, could effect your own oxytocin levels.
This is the really profound thing. A lot of the time we can address issues like this at the emotional layer of our "character". If we are not motivated, it's our character that has to change. If we are not feeling positive its our character we have to change. The benefit of changing the layer at which we think of these problems to the hormonal level is that we can think of something like oxytocin suppression much in the way we think of dehydration. To stay motivated and positively focused oxytocin levels needs to be in a certain range, just as we need water to be in a certain range. Really strenuous, aggressive training will dehydrate you. It may also leave you in oxytocin deficit.
As to men, I really don't know. I think studies in these areas are pretty sporadic. I do know that hyper-aggressive training contexts like military bootcamp and wartime engagement are also structurally linked to socializing bonds that end up cementing relationships between men in a very deep way. This goes for team sports as well. So in men there may very well also be an important testosterone/oxytocin balance that is culturally addressed in the very nature of male bonding and training. Men get very aggressive, but then can be glued together through rites, practices and mores. Culture finds a way to set the hormones right in traditional forms, that's how traditions last and are propagated. But what is particular to female fighters is that they are in nearly all instances, almost by definition, "outside" of the masculine coded space, they are almost structurally determined to find themselves in oxytocin deficit, in a generalized way. The rise in testosterone may make oxytocin more difficult to regulate. They cannot as easily avail themselves of powerful forms of bonding, at least not as readily as men may be able to. They may find themselves on a testosterone train without balance. This may in fact account for the powerful romantic (and near romantic) attachments women sometimes form with the instructors who train them (not to say that they are un-real, but romance does provide an oxytocin spike in environments where it may be suppressed). And, it may account for the very significant successes some gym have when women are specifically nurtured, and team is really emphasized.
I wrote about this from a very different angle in my guest post:
The Female Fighter and the Chain of Shame
I hadn't thought about it at the time, but perhaps oxytocin (and testosterone) have a role in that theoretical construct.
Super fascinating. Suggests the "old coaches tale" regarding not having sex, for male fighters, the night before a fight.. You've heard the other story on the street about the Stock Market dipping on the day the last strip club on Wall St closed? Yeah. Speaks to rings girls. All of this of course fascinates me (and if you train hard enough you don't menstruate which affects estrogen, but is there also an effect on Oxytocin I wonder)?
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Three Oaks - How do you feel training with younger women? Do you feel much of a strength difference? I think age is much more of an issue in the men's division than it is in ours, so I tend to agree with you that you don't need to be separated. I trained an amateur MMA fighter in her mid-40s for a while and she had no problem with 20-year-olds. She had a both wins and losses, but none of them could be attributed to age.
I am thinking about the strength/age differential for men & women - that is very interesting that your experience says its men that are affected more. I wonder if it has to do with increasing estrogen and declining testosterone for them, and the reverse for women?
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Three Oaks - How do you feel training with younger women? Do you feel much of a strength difference? I think age is much more of an issue in the men's division than it is in ours, so I tend to agree with you that you don't need to be separated. I trained an amateur MMA fighter in her mid-40s for a while and she had no problem with 20-year-olds. She had a both wins and losses, but none of them could be attributed to age.
I don't feel a strength difference at all. I have old farm lady/mom strength in most situations (not with New Thai though; she's a beast lol). Definitely there is a reaction time difference though. I am slower; I notice that mostly in the pace of my learning. I have to work harder and longer than younger people but that's ok. I assume in fight situations that lag will play out too. Some of that is being a novice but some of it has got to be age. Don't care though.
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I'm gonna be in Minnesota Thanksgiving weekend. Dana Hoey, 150, 1 smoker boxing only. Senior (51). Everyone prefers I fight someone my age though I am less concerned about it at this level. No weight-cutting though (5 lbs max). Thank you Kaitlin; we are so lucky you are posting and commenting here!
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:( so sorry. I HATE injuries. Watch a lot of fights!!
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When your training partner takes a fight yay! Things are going to get ugly fun!
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This is so great thank you.
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Hey Dana, honestly I'm not even aware of their attacks on Sylvie - or, if I was at some point aware I certainly have forgotten. I don't follow them, and I hardly follow people that follow them. But I guess it doesn't surprise me that they were part of that crew. So this isn't really clapping back. If it was I certainly would have published this as a guest post on Sylvie's blog, instead of keeping it here in my little corner of the internet read by 5 or 6 people. There's a lot one could say in that direction, but I really choose not to get involved. What is involved here are ideas. These things are really important to me, and I think about these things a great deal.
I do have to say that the notion that my critique comes from that of being a "purist", I can't really identity with. Purists tend to be removed from their source, romanticizing the distance, preserving something they themselves are detached from. It isn't really "purist" to say: Hey, that Thai word you are using, that isn't a Thai word. In fact, it's not even close. Really, my issue wasn't even with the short film, which you can see here. If I had watched only this I would have perhaps chuckled a little to myself. It was really the quoted description itself that triggered me: OSU is based upon Kevin’s study of the Muay Thai philosophy of ‘osu’ (pronounced ‘oossss’) – the training mantra by which a student steels themselves against any hardship, physical or mental << Here you not only have misstatement of fact, its a misstatement in the tone of trying to educate someone (here is how this esoteric word is pronounced), and not only that, but that the film's deep character apparently came out of Kevin's "study" of this concept/principle, a study which may not even have involved knowing where it came from. I'm sorry, this does more than make me shake my head. It makes me say WTF? Now maybe none of this came form Kevin Ross, or even the film makers. Maybe it's this MMA writer's creation, but come on now. If you are going to take up an authoritative tone, and look like you are passing on some knowledge of Muay Thai and it's culture, please have some grasp of reality?
re: "But I've found in the end that nothing matters when it comes to public attention; all that matters is the work."
I have to say that I disagree with this at the cultural end. Yes, as an artist (which you are), yes!, all that matters is the work. But the artist exchanges something with society when she/he purchases such expressive freedom. Yeah, you can say or do whatever you feel provokes or inspires meaning. But everything you say or do gets placed under critique and criticism. And no, if they had painted Kevin Ross's eyes to be slanted so he looked more "Asian" that would be problem...or at least problematic, not to mention humorous in the wrong way. And yeah, if you are going to create some kind of pan-Asian homage to Muay Thai, that too is going to be subject to an Orientalism charge. It's not a light thing. Yes, we may think it is a light thing because as white folks from the west it doesn't affect us (directly), but it isn't cool. No, not all Asians look alike. No, not all Asian fighting arts are the same art (as much as MMA tries to turn them into one). You don't have to be a purist to say: Hey, wait a minute.
Just because it is hard to put words properly, effectively to martial art subjects, doesn't mean that it doesn't matter how we do so. In fact the very difficulty suggests to me the opposite. It means that we should be more careful, more exact, more informative. We don't just free associate, and bring in every sort of unconscious ideological baggage...that is, unless we don't really care about serious critique.
As to Arjan and Kru in the west, I just find it silly in most instances, the Fist Foot Way kind of way. Part of the fantasy. Not worth fighting about in my daily go-about. Okay, so you call yourself Arjan. Hmm. No big deal. But it too is worthy of critique.
Duly schooled and corrected. I figured when I wrote my paragraph, you might have an excellent response and you did. Also I should say that it may not have been Kevin who was a pill about crowd-sourcing; by all accounts he is a generous guy and of course an exciting fighter. I just remember some douchey remark his coach made (in the context of many douchey remarks). Little protective here. But he was probably just being protective of someone, as I have been here. Its an endless cycle and one that I, as mainly a fan, ought not to participate in. Thank you.
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Was just reading this, a summary of a Kevin Ross Muay Thai Journey art film called "Oss". The title of the film is explained this way:
OSU is based upon Kevin’s study of the Muay Thai philosophy of ‘osu’ (pronounced ‘oossss’) – the training mantra by which a student steels themselves against any hardship, physical or mental...more here
I don't mean to rag on Kevin Ross - who is an American Muay Thai trailblazer, fighting when the sport was very undeveloped in the country and even to this day, practically becoming synonymous with the words "Muay Thai" for many less familiar with the Thai realities of the sport - or on the filmmakers who are admittedly artists and poets...for instance maybe they liked "Oss" because it is typographically like "Ross". But is it wrong to just say: Hey. This is not a Muay Thai philosophy, and that it is pretty stark that one would name a film centered on Muay Thai, Oss? Of all the Thai words available to you, you choose Oss? The problems with this are layered. The first of which is that Muay Thai doesn't really have "a philosophy", at least not one you study. It would take a pretty big stretch to frame one, if you wanted to, in fact what defines Muay Thai in so many ways is that it isn't esoteric, isn't "idea" driven (which is different than saying it has no ideas). Secondly of course, Oss is a Japanese term, one with very ambiguous origins. Read This. And its uses/meanings in Japanese are quite different than how they are used in gyms in the west. Yes, I understand that this term has really proliferated in western contexts, and maybe that is how it somehow got attached to a film about a journey in Muay Thai, but choosing a Japanese term to indicate a supposedly Thai concept is pretty far out there. Why? Well, for one the Japanese more or less tried to steal/appropriate Muay Thai through the invention of "Kickboxing" in the late 1960s and 1970s. Naming a Muay Thai related documentary 'Oss' really comes full circle on this, twisting the cultural knife in a little. To this day there are still tensions/ambitions across this cultural divide.
There are additional difficulties, for instance how we in the west tend to treat all things from Asia as the same, ignoring important differences that the peoples of cultures find vital. To flip the script: no, hockey is not the National Sport of the United States, no Ramon Dekkers was not a French Kickboxer. Or one can think about how a lot of how Muay Thai, or other Asia martial arts, are taught in the west involves a sometimes very orientalizing tendency of imitation (for instance, this seems to have been involved in the indiscriminate spread of the term "Oss" itself). Imitation, but without understanding. On one level, none of this really seems to matter. These are very well-meaning creative people doing things that are often quite worthy, and meaningful to themselves and others, helping spread the art/s - and in this particular case exploring the relationship between addiction and authenticity. But hey, on another level preserving the differences between arts is pretty damn important to preserving the arts themselves. You can't just make up the idea that a certain way of thinking is Thai, when in fact it's Japanese, and not lose something. I really have no clue at what level this kind of cross-wiring is occurring. My issue isn't really with this particular confusion, but maybe with the way that Muay Thai is being digested in the west, especially in the all-consuming maw of the UFC which swallows every fighting art it can. And it may very well be that in some American gyms "Oss" pretty much functions as a "Thai" term, said along with a wai, or what not. But at a certain point don't we have to make a correction? Put people on the right track of the culture they believe they are studying when they devote themselves to an art form? Oss is not Thai. In fact, in someways arguably it's very un-Thai.
Those guys (Ross and his coach) should have never taken shots at Sylvie's fund-raising; I love how you two consistently clap back. These seem like very legitimate objections given your superior immersion in Thai fighting, and I abhor sloppy cultural appropriation as well. At the same time, I fear purists because over time, very little seems original to its place. Mixing in the long run is healthy. As a visual artist, I've had my work appropriated and people make money off my ideas and vision (early on). I do understand the pain of some being elevated due to their pr skills and general fame-friendliness (not Kevin per se but Western "kickboxers" for example, who are tied to a bigger global press machine). But I've found in the end that nothing matters when it comes to public attention; all that matters is the work. I am speaking on an individual level of course, rather than cultural but I think there is some analogy. You seem to allude to a greater acceptance of this natural mixing in saying you've become relaxed about Western teachers using the term "Ajarn" and "Kru". Other thing I would add is that in my efforts to bring martial arts into the museum setting DAMN its been hard not to have any description of fighting forms not sound stupid and corny and just.. wrong. Once you use the words "martial arts philosophy" (which the most recent museum press dept did despite my efforts), its all downhill lol. I have to relax and let people communicate to the uninterested though, which I reckon is what these filmmakers have to do in conveying their piece in one short paragraph. Anyhow I look forward to this film although also, I am not a fan of addiction narratives in film or otherwise. Meh. Don't like romanticizing that stuff but we'll see how they handle it.
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My 2017 goals are:
1. Continue to enjoy learning the art of Muay Thai.
2. Continue mental training, especially this effective practice: http://www.lionsroar.com/how-to-practice-feeding-your-demons/?utm_content=bufferae389&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer
3. Rest and recover well (avoid injury if possible this way).
4. Have at least two fights. First one is scheduled March 31.
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If the timing works surgery can be good. I had an ACL graft which has an appalling long recovery period but my knee is far better than ever before. If the timing doesn't work all these suggestions sound great. Good luck!
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I enjoyed last year's goal thread quite a bit, and am happy to report my goals were accomplished. The best one I set was to be patient and not to be embarrassed to be a beginner. Why just yesterday I fell on my ass and ran into a wall practicing flying knees and roundhouses lol; I was not really embarrassed at all. Totally fun. From one point of view I am no longer a beginner, from a fight point of view I am. I did accomplish my goal of having my first smoker which at age friggin-old is pretty fantastic and I am happy about that. The only goal I can articulate right now is no more apologizing (unless truly warranted) - thanks New Thai. Otherwise I have to get a shoulder mri next week then I can set my 2017 goals. Look forward to reading everyone's.
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Threeoaks and myself finally got to trade strikes today. Man, is she tall!
Man is New Thai a brick shithouse - so powerful and SO FUN.
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Kevin, I was just watching a documentary called 'Miss Representation' and something that Caroline Heldman said during it reminded me of this post:
"..We also see this new incarnation..where women appear to be empowered. They're carrying the story, they're the action hero, but when you peel back a layer or two, you discover that it's not really about their agency. I call this archetype 'the fighting fuck toy' because even though she is doing things supposedly on her own terms, she is very much objectified and exists for the male viewer."
She talks about this more in this post on her website:
"Fighting fuck toys are hyper-sexualized female protagonists who are able to “kick ass” (and kill) with the best of them. The FFT appears empowered, but her very existence serves the pleasure of the heterosexual male viewer. In short, the FFT takes female agency, weds it to normalized male violence, and appropriates it for the male gaze."
OMG FFT is my new favorite acronym. So good thanks Emma.
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To spin or not to spin | Training Spinning Techniques
in Muay Thai Technique, Training and Fighting Questions
Posted
I saw the Raymond Daniels KO. I’m not a fan of how people mock spinning things (Kevin your more nuanced take of when to use them, offensive v defensive or at least singularly makes sense). But within other traditional martial arts it’s a well developed art form. The Daniels KO was hilarious cause he did two full rotations (and he’s a huge dude), landed, saw the opening & just punched his opponent’s lights out. Evidently he stuffed himself and had no room to throw the leg. Apart from the easy mockery of all the flowery effort, you have to accept that his opponent was dumb-founded & took a hard one to the jaw as a result lol. Diversion is not meaningless. As for Gaston Bolanos, I’ve seen him fight several times and his elbows can seem calculated for the television audience (his movie star looks don’t hurt), but I believe he is an earnest & serious fighter, perhaps not from the Thai perspective but he’s a lifelong martial artist, starting with his boyhood in Peru.