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Posts posted by threeoaks
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On 6/6/2019 at 7:18 AM, Jeremy Stewart said:
Thank you. It's important not just for me but for others as well. I, like your friend, face the dread of paralysis in whatever I do. My injury was to my back. Just the feeling of being able to do something is so mentally important, I can't really describe how important. Everyone tends to focus on only the physical part. You get used to pain, you get used to discomfort, but it was my experience that the mental part is the hardest part. It took 18 months to learn how to walk properly again, then comes the frustration of not being able to do the things you used to do, this leads to depressive states of mind. It's hard to relate the emotional cycles. But I guess what I'm trying to say is, With perseverance and one bit of good advice you can still train. I may not be as proficient as I once was, but I have knowledge and wish to impart that knowledge as I am a firm believer, martial crafts are beneficial first of all physically and as a by product mentally.
Jeremy. The dread of paralysis, yet you train. Absolutely inspirational, as is training when you know you are not the same athlete as before. I experience this daily as a person who is no longer young, but was once an absolute grinder, more than anyone around me. Much less difficult (aging is after all a privilege since the alternative is death). But my competitiveness blurgh.. it requires constant simmering down. Thanks for your example.
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5 hours ago, Sylvie von Duuglas-Ittu said:
I'm not actually sure what you're asking, so I'm just throwing in observations and maybe they're meaningful for what you're pondering and maybe not.
In my personal experience, I've always been either the only woman at the gym, or one of very few women at the gym. The ratio of men to women creates a completely lopsided social arrangement, wherein what role or quality women offer to the gym is heavily obscured by that inequality. In a gym where there are 10-20 men, the competitiveness they have with each other is an entirely different thing than if there were 2 of them, which is the thing women face. I find myself immediately excited by the presence of another women; annoyed and simultaneously happy to almost always be ordered to work with her (annoyed because it's simply our shared gender, happy because we have a shared gender); and disgusted with myself for having an automatic sense of competitiveness. Not competitiveness in the sporting sense, like how men might get to enjoy having a spar to see who's slicker, but competitiveness in the "there are limited social resources here and I now have to protect my hard-earned position" kind of competitiveness. Which is shit. Which is why you get women throwing each other under the bus to be teacher's-pet, or creating cliques when there are only 3 of us, or not being supportive despite there only being fucking 2 of us. And yet, there's a simultaneous support. It's like "frenemy" once someone is there for longer than a few days. It's supportive, the excitement and mutual aid is real, but so is the feeling of a threat.
But I've never come across a feeling that men and women at the gym have markedly different motivations. The feelings of power, personal security, potency, achievement, attractiveness that come from fitness and sport activities feel good to both men and women alike. There's a difference in who feels entitled to those feelings early on, but it kind of evens out over time, I think. Like, men feel badass and claim that feeling way before they actually are, and women claim it way after they've already been labeled that way by others - generally speaking. So, why men and women "should" do martial arts is pretty similar down the gender line: because they like it and it feels good. How they handle when it doesn't feel good seems more divided. Men seem to disappear from the gym when it's difficult or their ego is hurt; women tend to just heap pressure on themselves and put themselves in corners - albeit still working - until someone tells them they're worthy of attention again. At least in Thai gyms, in both these examples the correct thing to do is apologize if there was an infraction, otherwise always just carry on as if nothing at all has ever happened, ever.
Sylvie thanks. I know you have so much writing in the subject and this is a very general question. One of the reasons I follow you and your fight career is your hyper-consciousness of yourself as a Western female in the Thai context. You are a voyager not only across cultural lines, but also really across gender lines and i just love how you open up the path for those following you, and credit those before you. So I feel silly asking you the general question but I appreciate your thoughts. Your comparison evokes what I believe - there is a sameness (in motivation), inflected by profound social difference (numbers of fighters and response to ego challenges). Very succinct and confirms what I observe in a broader general sense. Having had kids now, everyone expects me to finally sign on the biological gender differences and fine yeah, there are differences. But I hate biological arguments - they often break down (compare the level of testosterone in any elite female athlete's body with an ordinary woman's levels and you have what, a more male person? I don't accept this silly line of reasoning where a single hormone defines a gender). Attitude and durability (where the women, in your observation, continue working whereas the males often disappear under durress) are all. So I always appreciate, deeply, your conscious voyage. to you for it, all day long.
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7 minutes ago, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:
Does a Martial Craft become a Martial Art simply when it passes into the hands of the Rich?
And even more problematically, is this the case with all crafts and arts?
Jinx! Yes!
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1 minute ago, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:
Some of the most un-beautiful things, I find terribly beautiful. For me art or Art always has to be beautiful. It's up to the viewer to discover that beauty. It's just a hypostatized version of our relationship to the world.
Had to look up hypostatized. I suppose it’s true you can extend the idea of beauty to be “the thing one likes”. I often have this argument with studio driven artists (who are more craft-driven) and conceptual or “post-studio” artists, for whom obviously the idea is the beautiful thing, and they signal that by making extremely plodding, minimal or otherwise unattractive objects if any object at all. Neither artist understands or respects the other.
5 minutes ago, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:As to art and craft, that is a super interesting one. Muay Thai in Thailand is much, much closer to a craft than an art, in most of the gyms producing fighters. I like that term, Martial Craft, rather than Martial Art. I think we are getting somewhere!
Interesting re; martial craft. I love that. I view craft as on equal footing with art, & usually find it’s an extremely specious, class, race & gender driven distinction. “Reading in Detail” by Naomi Schor is a good book for breaking down the history of value & the words used to signal it in visual art.
btw I love un-beautiful things too. Cut faces, busted pots - wabi-sabi!
5 minutes ago, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:- 2
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34 minutes ago, Jeremy Stewart said:
My dream (which I'm attempting to make come to fruition), is to have a school where being the norm is not the norm, so that people (especially those that have trained before, but not limited to) have a place to come and find or rediscover their sense of self worth, especially those like myself that have life changing injuries that they may feel excludes them from training at a regular school.
May your dream come to fruition . I have a friend and coach who has broken his neck (pro rugby) such that if he takes a blow to the head he’s looking at paralysis. He mainly does BJJ now (which actually seems more injury prone AND injury friendly, oddly). I can’t imagine there aren’t risks but you do what you love. Glad you survived your injury.
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8 hours ago, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:
The question is, is a completely useless Martial Art, still a Martial Art?
Or, even more interestingly, how far must a Martial Art go in the direction of utility, when it ceases to be a Martial "Art", and simply becomes martial.
It would be disappointing to me though to learn (if anything like that were argued), that they are perfectly useless.
Utility is a good dividing line in martial arts (love how you frame the question in both directions), but in contemporary art there is not an inarguable line between art and craft, nor is beauty in any form a requirement (debatable what beauty is of course).
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45 minutes ago, Coach James Poidog said:
I genuinely believe it. How else can smaller people beat bigger stronger people? Its the real connector and cross over to traditional martial arts. Sport makes it about all things being even so size is a factor, you cant dismiss it...but you can deal with it. One of my fighters doesnt cut weight so hes always fighting bigger opponents. His last fight he actually cut weight and the dude he fought was still 10lbs over lol. Ended up 15 lbs heavier than my guy fight day. My guy beat him with technique and made dude quit in the third round (knees to the body after two rounds of making sure he kicked him in the body). Size is a factor not a determiner.
Love that story. Body body body and good bye!
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2 minutes ago, Coach James Poidog said:
I think the weirdness, as far as adults goes, might come from sexuality and "sexual tension" between men and women. Thats just not something that happens with me but I have witnessed it between students when I pair them up to train. I try hard to make sure people understand that in the art we are equal. I tend to emphasize it due to how I teach the art which is less about power in general and more about technique which transcends physical power. Im not big on my students and fighters relying on power to win and more about being able to beat power with other aspects all people have.
Yes that makes sense regarding the sexuality business. And I love what you say about technique over power.
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3 minutes ago, Coach James Poidog said:
No Im not suggesting that at all. Im saying what I said, what I notice in my experience. If I were to think of it, I didnt ever notice anything like that. If anything it could just be a hyper competitiveness to be better than or equal to the men. I just know in general they worked harder. I say in general because I had male students just as dedicated but I also had male students that were lackadaisical in there training, where as almost none of the female students were like this.
Got ya.
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3 hours ago, Coach James Poidog said:
Recent example is a youth students who just started 2months ago and is already the equal of males in her class that have been training twice as long. Honestly shes a joy to have in my class and because of it definitely geta extra attention from me (as any student like her, male or female, would).
Are you suggesting sometimes female students, because they work harder, might get more focused attention from coaches leading to the weirdness I mentioned above ("Daddy look at ME" type of competitiveness)? Perhaps it is not a behavior that you notice, or maybe its as Jojo says and only the fitness types that do this.
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2 hours ago, Coach James Poidog said:
Ive tended to have maybe a little more male students than female in general. The only real difference Ive seen is that as a whole the female students are harder workers, put more attention into their training than men. Personally I love my female students because of this. Recent example is a youth students who just started 2months ago and is already the equal of males in her class that have been training twice as long. Honestly shes a joy to have in my class and because of it definitely geta extra attention from me (as any student like her, male or female, would). Some of my best students and fighters have been female.
So great. My coach tells me a similar thing - its just so rewarding to be listened to, and the female ego seems to be different. That said I think it takes a strong male ego to be coachable at all, so it speaks well of you that you have many male fighters. Thanks James.
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33 minutes ago, Josephine (Jojo) Kim said:
I agree with Jeremy - in general women are more eager to please and seem more attentive to learning (this goes for the academic classroom as well).
One girl was always down to spar bc she would willingly and literally walk up to challenge. She “became more aggressive,” or stood her ground when she was in the center of the ring to spar with everyone watching, but still no screaming or crazy sounds, like the boys. Another girl was always more hesitant, but would go up since I constantly yelled, “You can do it!”
First, this is exactly what I am interested in - nice to know how it works beyond my little East Coast America frame. So the Taiwan point of view is interesting and makes sense. I love imagining you yelling "you can do it" OMG. The best.
33 minutes ago, Josephine (Jojo) Kim said:they seemed to enjoy a flexibility of seriousness-playfulness as a child. I saw less of this behavioral breadth in the girls. This is just my general observation.
Incredible and well put.
33 minutes ago, Josephine (Jojo) Kim said:At this age, there is not too much “sweetheart of the gym” present. Sometimes fitness-goal-centered gyms have this issue amongst adults. I can feel competition in the air to be “seen” by the male coaches or men in the room. But in serious gyms that train to fight, this dynamic is not as common. Women are usually THRILLED to have other women fighters step into the space and work with them.
Thanks that is a very helpful distinction in sorting out my own two minor but annoying experiences. Both women were more fitness oriented people even though damn, they are adults (one is at my karate gym, the other was at Western boxing). Nobody does this at my Muay Thai gym. NOBODY. You are so right - no real fighters ever look the gift horse of being able to punch me in the mouth, in the mouth! Thanks again!
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2 hours ago, Jeremy Stewart said:
In all of my years associated with the martial arts, there have always been women involved either as instructors or students. Each and everyone of them has/had the respect of the class. I don't know what it's like in other parts of the world, but I've always found martial training, be it Karate or Muay Thai to be a pretty even playing field where you earn your respect regardless of sex. At least that's been my experience. Bare in mind, I come from Queensland and in American terms we were and still are considered rednecks. Of course there has been the occasional knob head, both male and female but they have usually left of their own accord or have been asked to leave.
As a teacher, I have one particular female student whom three months ago wasn't very confident in herself. She's a naturally big person. Anyway she could not kick higher than halfway up her own shin height. Now, she's kicking almost to head height, she's 6'1". She feels more confident in herself and the secret to bringing her out of shell was something I learned from Sylvie. Try not try, let things just flow.
I do think in general, women are more eager to please and seem more attentive in regards to learning.
Jeremy thank you. I am interested to read that the schools are generally egalitarian in Queensland. I am back East in the US, and grew up out West (which is probably culturally more like Queensland). I love the story of your big woman. OMG. I am very tall too and its strange being a bigger woman - you are constantly challenged on your gender (as many muscley women of all sizes are; I reckon Sylvie has written about this). Three months and a huge difference! You must be a great coach.
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5 hours ago, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:
Maybe Kaitlin will hop on, I think she is fighting today or tomorrow, but is a coach and has thought a lot about this I believe. What are your thoughts or intuitions?
Would love it if Kaitlin will hop on and will be watching her fight! My thoughts & intuitions are kind of a constant stream, actually. I know its a general question but I am doing a show in NYC that includes a ladies MT fight night and this will result in people asking me why I think women ought to do martial arts in general, Muay Thai in particular. These will be people hostile to the idea of violence generally. For myself, I usually adore the women in my gyms, because there is less coquetry and more directness. Twice though, I've had another woman try and throw me under the bus to be the "favorite student" with the male coach - that's fun lol. So I am just searching for thoughts and impressions. I actually hate generalizations and think the cloud of socialization is so powerful (habitus) in developing gender roles that its difficult to find what is real and what is just driven by social needs, but all, in the end are real so I am just trying to trace patterns. Thanks.
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I’d be curious to hear from the coaches in particular how they see differences in male & female athletes, and also what are the main similarities. I ask this here rather than Sherdog or Reddit cause I’m not begging for an earful of sexism, more an open field of experience & opinion from both men & women & also non-binary people if you’re here.
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Just now, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:
I put up extensive screenshots of one of the best chapters (to me), it will give you a sense whether this author has the right tone and level of detail. Not all the book is this good, but I really liked parts of it:
Yes I have seen you posting about it and bought it. Expensive! But nerdtastic. Thank you for putting up screenshots.
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I 100% agree. Ah shit I did that wrong. I was replying to Oliver about Rogan v Cruz.
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4 minutes ago, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:
You may find the Taekwando book I recently read interesting.
I'll get it. btw I hear a decent amount of shit talk of Tae Kwon do to the effect that its too unreal from the Tang soo do people lol. EVERYONE DOES IT.
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11 minutes ago, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:
But, I like to think of Karate as kind of compressed file, that likely contains a ton of wisdom and knowledge from eras that are not our own.
I love that idea of a compressed files and I don't disagree that much of karate has taken a turn towards the unreal. Part of it is I don't really like the word "karate". Seems important to be precise. I also don't think being original (Okinawan) necessarily makes things right. I am not always looking for the oldest thing although that is also of interest, just not definitive. I tell you what Kevin, I was in tears when it became clear that for family reasons I was going to have to add in Korean Tang soo do (a precursor to Tae Kwon do, heavier roundhouses, many other differences but still a 20th century hybrid like so many). I just absolutely hated it but I have to do it (my mentally ill daughter is trying to get back to her practice and she needs to see a beginner, me, for courage). I am learning some brutal things (so many approaches to yanking off the testicles lol), and because my teacher knows I prefer Muay Thai, he is at pains to explain the real purpose in different movements. The single blow thing, for example, is obviously ridiculous so Tang soo do also teaches nasty little hand and wrist locks as a sort of backup in case your opening salvo fails on the street. But this is not a defense of karate. Go ahead. Chop at it. I love that video! Two smart guys making solid arguments for the necessity of "kata" or forms. Makes sense. I didn't know Okinawan was so grappling based. Style I hate is Shotokan. So still, so low. Seems just fucking pretentious. That is probably similar to peoples' reactions to flying shit. I have shot thousands of frames of different styles of karate at tournaments so I'm somewhat aware of the variety. But my heart and soul are with Muay Thai, as much as they can be from this country.
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1 hour ago, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:
What's Karate shit talk? I'm not entirely sure. Putting Karate down, or Karate people putting other fight styles down?
Both I guess :). Everybody does it. Substantive analysis like you do is valid. But shit talk generally, knee jerk stuff is something I try to be careful with, just for myself. I try to maintain 100% curiosity all the time, though critique is part of that. Doesn’t apply to anyone else so I’m gonna drop it.
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On 6/3/2019 at 6:17 AM, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:
I made this for you 3 Oaks. I saw it randomly in the fight and thought "Hey, 3 Oaks would like this!":
What a stud. But haha I’m not the spinning aficionado. I just don’t like all the karate shit talk but of course I understand spectacular showy stuff breeds greedy awkward noobs. I also would like to slap Joe Rogan (cause that’s more humiliating than a spinning kick). Thank you I’m touched!!
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Teep all day.
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9 hours ago, Coach James Poidog said:
Lol more humorous, but frustrating if they cant buckle down on the fundamentals. Basics win fights as a great coach once told me. Id want a lot of time put into those before Id explore the more fancy tricks that make highlight videos.
From a coach perspective, makes all the sense. From a student & fan perspective I wish just once in a while people (ok online people) could just stop & appreciate the athleticism it takes to do what Daniels does (mind you, I did enjoy watching his damn long karate leg get chopped before he learned to defend the low kick mua haha Muay Thai).. I don’t know why it gets to me but it’s like an mma attitude of (bear voice) “it’s not REAL fighting”. In a sense that’s true since many spinning techniques, tornado kicks & what have you come from point sparring, but when it works (atop rock solid fundamentals as you say), can’t we bow down for once? It’s a futile, silly effort of mine I know (change online culture Bwa haha). And of course, as you are a coach, I understand the meme. Then there is this, at 59 seconds. Cause like ya say, when you have the basics & way more, why the f*ck not?!
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5 minutes ago, Coach James Poidog said:
I think both Daniels and Gaston (love him) are perfect examples of people that train it to make it integral to their arsenal who also have their fundamentals down solidly. In those cases Im a fan. I have a guy who has a nasty spinning hook kick hes used successfully in competition. He trains it diligently. Raymond is another guy that has made it part of his tried and true from years of training. I cant find any fault with that. What Im not a fan of, and the coach who made this meme is also trying to say, is focusing on techniques that for most are low percentage working techniques over the tried and true fundamentals of fighting. Ive encountered some people that couldnt throw a round kick with out losing balance want to just learn a spinning elbow. If theyre a hobbyist and we're doing a private, Ill just sigh and take em through it, but for my students that compete its a bugger frustration. Nothing wrong with spinning stuff as long as you have everything else coming along nicely.
That makes sense. Must be annoying!
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Women fighting & training - how do you feel, similarities and differences with men.
in Open Topics - men and women - General Muay Thai Discussion and News
Posted
hahahahahah
I accept that there is difference of course. I just don't focus on it, and try and screw them (bio arguments) up every chance I get cause they irritate me
Oliver. I believe this. Its too funny. One has to ask, 'what is a girl', in that case, if a girl is rejecting too many "girls". Is it the less serious people? Or just the loss of the higher level of power/technique/aggressiveness? Some of us prefer to be around men cause its less complicated. No generalization is really possible. Thanks for your experience! Sometimes I wish I could, like you, just not think about it. But it's my life's work as a visual artist so I try to stay loose but remain conscious.