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threeoaks

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Posts posted by threeoaks

  1. 8 minutes ago, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

    ...but it is desperately in need of a secondary financial tier, the chance for Thai female fighters to raise their level. That's behind our efforts in Queens of the North for instance, which we are still working on, a regular, lucrative monthly promotion raising an entire fight scene like that if Chiang Mai, which does not rely as heavily on side bets. 

    How is that going?  Is it an annual show?  Are there potential sponsors in Thailand?  What about abroad?  Any massive Western brands trying to get a foothold?  I am thinking about this for myself as well since I am throwing one ladies show but bleeding money; will need sponsor to do it again.

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    The other dramatic change would be to open the National Stadia to women. Fighters like Phetjee Jaa, Loma, Lommanee, Sawsing are absolutely capable of fighting at that level, and would dream of fighting there. Female Muay Thai in Thailand, for women, is decapitated in almost every way by this prohibition. Sylvie is also working to change this.

    There is almost no connection to the masters, though we have thought about doing something systematically, in Queens of the North can be put into action. 

    Can Masters apply leverage to stadia?  Systematization rather than blunt favors?  You must be making such a great (huge) cultural rupture by forging these connections through the library.

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  2. 8 hours ago, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

    The great 8.PNG

    The Loss of Greatness?

    As an addendum, there really is a kind of possible harbinger to the future of female Muay Thai in Thailand, it could be argued that of the 8 great female Muay Thai fighters in the list, only 2 of these are currently fighting top talent AND had become part of the "unfightable" through the sidebet process of producing the countries elite fighters. Stamp, for instance, was not one of the top fighters at her weight in the country before moving to Fairtex, and despite ONE's hype, even today is likely not near the best in Thailand. She would very likely lose in a full rules match to Loma, Lommanee, Phetjee Jaa and Amp, and Thanonchanok would be interesting. Of the rest only Sawsing and Thanonchanok are fairly regularly training, and facing somewhat stiff competition. Lommanee hasn't fought an elite opponent in full rules for maybe 5 years (that I know of). Loma has moved on from full rules Muay Thai, as has Amp. Chommanee hasn't trained regularly at a high level for several years, and is not at her peak. Phetjee Jaa has left full rules Muay Thai for boxing. The best female Muay Thai fighters of Thailand are not really fighting in Muay Thai.

    Further, aside from Stamp who wasn't part of the pattern of development, all these fighters were elite when they were 16 or 17, that was when they reached "unbeatable" in the sidebet sense, when they were fighting the most frequently and training most regularly. What is a little worrisome is that despite seemingly better opportunities for Thai female fighters in the country there does not seem to be a current crop of elite Thai female fighters now at 16 years of age. The only one I can think of is Nong Biew who came out of nowhere to take World Titles when she was 15. She became something of a star in the country. But almost everyone on this list is in their 20s. They are beyond their peak Muay Thai years, in terms of the regular Thai development. It could be that the process that developed the brilliance of Loma's clinch or of Chommanee's herky-jerk switching has been disrupted, and that Thailand is moving to an different era. I hope this is not the case, but who are the "unfightable" ones of Thailand now, the 16 to 17 year olds who cannot be beat? There is a very good young fighter that Dejrat gym was training who fought at the larger weight classes on Thai Fight, I've forgotten her name [I'd edit it in when Sylvie gets home]. But I can only think of her and Nong Biew. It means that the next generation of greatness, the next group of 20-24 year olds who then will be no longer at their peak may be greatly reduced. Where is the next Sawsing?

    I assume there is no comparable rise of young adult fighters in the bourgeois class...  Does everything depend on this early training?  I would answer the question ‘yes’ (I cannot bear watching swimmers who learned as adults, having started competing at 4).  But if change must happen, how do you see it occurring?  Just the death of the sport for women?  Watering down?  A big avenue for women’s improvement is clearly you guys recording the Masters & interacting with them such that a female fighter is modeled to be as serious, no, more serious than the young men (Sylvie).  This is having a global impact of course with people coming to the summit from all around and studying your archive.  What is the relation of young Thai female fighters to the Masters (male), and to global fighters coming in?  Do you see any future through this synthesis?

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  3. 6 minutes ago, Coach James Poidog said:

    This is the gear I use most at the moment. Didnt think Id like this style of glove but I really do. For shins I just love Top King. Havent found much else as good to me. 

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    Top King are super nice.  Closer to the shin than my poofy ones.  I’d love to try them but I wonder about my leg length; they look short & I’m long (plus I just dropped $ on the Yokkao’s so obviously cannot).   Can’t see the gloves too well.  “Danger”?  Gloves nice & banged up.  The best.  Shin guards are, sorry to be an artist about it, but they’re kind of beautiful.

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  4. 13 minutes ago, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

    It's actually a pretty crappy term. It immediately positions the problem, and more importantly its solution as academic, the discourse (hahahaha, yeah, "discourse") on it and its reality at a very rarefied level of class. And it isn't even rule by the father. It's really rule by all the sons of the father...perhaps filiiarchy.

    Yeah.  Plus not just ambiguous and ill-conceived (or conceived when inheritance was the defining factor), but practically speaking not the best political rhetoric because it’s so blamey-pants (which puts people on the defensive).

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  5. 5 hours ago, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

    a general tide, a fabric in the culture that reflects an experience of powerlessness for women, and powerfulness for men.

    I particularly like the phrase “general tide”.  I’m always a huge fan of elegant ways to describe prevailing terms.   I sometimes use the word “patriarchy” cause it’s accurate.  But It’s painful to use, actually physically hurts, and many people (including myself as a teen) simply go blank.  So a tide -  beautiful.

     

     

    5 hours ago, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

    And honestly, Sylvie just couldn't access any of those ridiculously blown out visions the guys found so easy to dream up. As a woman - and probably for other reasons too - all these super-visioned, jacked up thoughts were like a different language. 

    This is so interesting.  I do an annual “wild goals for the year” sheet and what you write about Sylvie is true for me too.  I write in the plainest terms, force myself to make elevated goals (and yes I meet them), but there is a feeling of looking around sort of furtively as I write.  Wtf.

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  6. 16 hours ago, Kaitlin Rose Young said:

    ...

    Ah Kaitlyn I’m not sure what happened to your fantastic comment but I am glad I caught it.  It’s extremely interesting that you observe a lot of progress comes from opposite sex coaches.  I only know one female coach in a different style of fighting around here, and because she is a dragon (very rough), it takes a very particular person to train with her and at a high level yeah - it’s young men, not women (and I train with her son)!  I wonder why this is.  Thank you for all your thoughts, very much.  Congratulations on your great fight btw.  Can’t wait til you fight again. (Maybe my mobile is just not showing it or you wanted to reconsider something which is all fine; just happy to read it).

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  7. 29 minutes ago, Coach James Poidog said:

    For me, its more that the persona I have when I train or fight is more the real one the one I cant let fully out in normal life. Ive had emotional issues as a kid from past abuse that left me with an unhealthy anger and no real way to deal with it...until I started training. Training let me use it and let it out to a degree that made it manageable in regular day life. If I have an alter its more the good and kind person I trained myself to become. The killer mentality has been there so long, its a part of me no matter what but it has so many detractors in regular dealings I had to learn to manage it and training helped me. Specifically in learning when and where to unleash it in training and fighting. Btw Kevin, this post is exactly why I posted earlier. I love to see how an idea expressed leads to other ideas and thoughts.  

    I am something more like this, except I had almost over-trained my functional self in years of sobriety, such that the “crazy” kept leaking out around the edges.  Fight training has been a godsend, restored me to sanity not least because I don’t have to pretend I’m something else.  Violence for fun was normal in my family.

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  8. On 6/8/2019 at 5:41 PM, Coach James Poidog said:

    I was curious to hear how people train their killer mentality without actually taking it out on their training partners. I dont really subscribe to the barbarian/berserker mentality for my fighters as I feel it can make them sloppy and tend towards too much emotion in a fight. I do however put out the though of being more like what we imagine a serial killer to be like. Picture more Dexter vs Conan and youll get the idea. If you can get past the serial killer term, the idea is to be calm and collected while still maintaining that killer attitude. Why I think this works well is it becomes a dimmer switch in training, with my people being able to turn it up or down depending on what they are faced with. The hardest part is to figure how much or how little to apply in sparring. Even there though the attitude of being a serial killer still works and even allows for the person to scale it back. The part thats most important and the part even I still work on is the clinical detachment while maintaining the killer aspects. So how do you do it? 

    makoto_horimatsu_20190606205819.png

    I am interested to read you understand this as a trainable quality rather than something you have innately or not.  I would love to read your experience with bringing it out in people (though I know you are asking for others’ point of view).

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  9. 27 minutes ago, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

    Hmmm. If you are responding to my thought experiment it really shouldn't involve pushing people around anywhere. The whole idea is to develop a sense of domination, which is really just control over your environment, submissive people are also trying to control their environment as well, they do it hrough submission. In my example this is done without aggression, which means you aren't pushing against anything. A good example I can take from my bartender years. I used to bar tend during some shifts in NY in a very small service bar (making drinks for waiters) where customers would come and kind of corner me, and talk to me. Ha, I'm not the talkative bartender type at all. One night I just decided to see if I could move the person in front of me who was jabbering away - it really was only maybe 4 feet across, the little bar space, I tried to move them to the left and to the right. I would talk to them and look off center, slightly to their left to move them slowly across the bartop, and then slightly to the right, and like a cat with a laser they would move to be in front of my gaze. I felt trapped, it was my degree of freedom. I wasn't really pushing them. I'm not sure that classifies as aggression. Maybe? But, I think it's something far below aggression. It's just the natural desire to control the environment, and there are many ways to do it. Not just aggressively.

    When a fighter like Samart is just drifting backwards, teep juggling his opponent over and over, looking bored, leading them quietly around the ring like a dog on a leash, is this aggression? There are moments of aggression in his style to be sure, but the domination he exhibits is the same as me looking to the right, and to the left. I think the confusion is the idea that as a fighter you need to tap into some fundamental, probably repressed aggression, and then stay in this aggro state for long stretches, in order to fight. No, not really. Not in Thai style at least. You have to learn how to control the space, control your opponent, and control yourself. Yes, you can use aggression. Yes, you can tap into repressed energies, as a tool, but it isn't fundamentally that. I think there is a lot of misleading about aggression in fighting, it necessity, etc. Is there fighting with absolutely ZERO aggression, probably not. But if you watch some of Somrak's fights you seem almost none. Dieselnoi when asked about Somrak said: He's a tall person who refuses to fight you!!! And basically implied, he's a nightmare for that reason.

    This stuff goes way, way back for Thailand. The oldest recorded fight between a farang and a Thai is from the 18th century when a French Man challenged a royal champion. The Thai champion just retreated (and probably teeped and whatnot) the French boxer became totally enraged. It was so humiliating that the Frenchman's brother then apparently hopped into the ring to simultaneously attack the Thai. I wonder who was dominating whom?

    Yeah I guess I see passive aggression as aggression flat out.  My point of view comes from being annoyed at American white females for using the tool of victim behavior as a powerful weapon.  I love passive aggression in, like you say, the Samart backing up, the Thai Champion enraging the French boxer, and you as a bartender. I do it myself.  I just think on a meta level there is a habit of princessy victimhood in my own culture (and i don't exempt myself) that can be remedied by experience of harnessing direct aggression (hence my posing martial arts for women).  You can expand the phenomenon of aligning with the powerful, acting submissive to do it and throwing other to the winds (aka cultural passive aggression) in early U.S. voting rights (black women didn't get the vote - who did that?  White women), current states overturning abortion laws (all white women doing it, disproportionately affects women of color).  But I am going far afield from James' question.   Sorry James. My final thought is one has to be able to use all kinds of concealed and overt aggression in life and in fighting, and not rely on just one.

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  10. 36 minutes ago, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

    I'm not entirely sure how you mean. Do you mean differently than the two articles cited do? Like, just in terms of error production? Or, do you mean more generally, how these articles paint a picture of the brain as a tipping point complex system?

    Well I think I was trying to cheat and just read your post since I am trying to get the kids off to school, do chores, chase chickens etc.  I'll read it later if there are clear terms.

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  11. I am interested to read this.  I always thought of the killer instinct as more of a buried quality that is either there or not (perhaps dependent on trauma or some combination of genetics and nurture).   Then the instinct should be trained for self-control, but there are examples of people who don't like fighting but who must for economic reasons (in Western boxing; I'm not familiar with how people talk about it in Thailand.  You can distinguish domination from aggression and that is elegant but it still takes a certain amount of aggression to want to push people around.  You typical submissive person does not try that).  I've definitely seen fighters at the gym quit fighting cause eh, they are not really fighters?  Too sweet?  Have you had athletes you could not bring this out in?  Is this why you ask the question, James?  

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  12. Quite interesting and makes intuitive sense, especially your points about the industrial age.  A cascade of sand is such a nice way of thinking about physical and mental, even emotional epiphanies, as well as waking up.  Its always good for my horribly perfectionistic brain to find another way to think about errors as productive as well.  I am wondering if you would be so kind as to define the brain in "criticality" under these terms a bit more.

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  13. 7 minutes ago, Coach James Poidog said:

    Right? Honestly, size difference is a real thing but it can be overcome. But it is funny when "they" say its no big deal but then go on to allow other similar limiters as serious problems. Many times I think the reason some of these limiters work is because people dont account for them in training. Ive been to many gyms that during sparring only have people of the same weight class match up. Coming from a traditional background, we never trained within weight classes, we just matched up with whoever, so we got to experience when techniques needed to be altered to account for your opponents size. A lot of techniques work on the surface, all things being equal, but fall short when used against a bigger opponent. Few then explore why. One of the things Ive always loved about the women that trained in the gyms I was at was their willingness and complete acceptance of training with consistently bigger/stronger partners. Funny thing is, it always made them better. Not just in general but specifically when they ended up with someone their own size and strength. It was kind of like weight training in that they adapted to the bigger/stronger and became something stronger themselves. I point out the women specifically because of the topic but also because there was never a complaint about it, it just was the way it was. 

    I know you are responding to Kevin but I would add that as a student I’m super happy sparring with people bigger & heavier than me; My favorite person is 6’4” about 260.  He’s a pro and he schools me but it’s just, for me, delightful seeing the many ways he gets ahead of me.  I also trust him, not just because of skill but because I know 99% of the time he has to really cut down in his power to get any work (holding pads for him is like a metal concert, tooth-rattling; I love it).

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  14. 2 hours ago, LengLeng said:

    Apologies this might be slightly off topic. Not a coach, but a woman in a male space, and I reacted to this by Sylvie:

    and disgusted with myself for having an automatic sense of competitiveness. Not competitiveness in the sporting sense, like how men might get to enjoy having a spar to see who's slicker, but competitiveness in the "there are limited social resources here and I now have to protect my hard-earned position" kind of competitiveness.Which is shit. Which is why you get women throwing each other under the bus to be teacher's-pet, or creating cliques when there are only 3 of us, or not being supportive despite there only being fucking 2 of us.

    I completely understand where this is coming from, usually spots for women are limited and we all have to compete for that one spot above the glass ceiling. But I also find it unfair. I'm sorry to say, but not all women in a muay thai gyms are cool. There are various types, the hard worker, the one who flirts to get some teaching from the male trainer (no judgement it's an effective strategy), the super hard tough girl who talks to no one and will kick the shit out of your shins (understanding her too) or the "know it all" etc etc. The point is, usually guys have the luxury of having ten other guys as training partners to relate to and train with. Finding their favorite or the asshole they cannot stand. But as a woman you're expected to instantly connect with that other woman who shows up and if she's not cool, you're not being a good "sister". And that sucks. And it's simply the result from having too few other women to train with. And to me that's the most limiting factor being a woman training muay thai. The longing for a female partner to compete with and learn from and then handling the disappointment when she turns out to be not so cool. And that whole pressure of having to get along with a fellow muay ying and to not appear like that woman who likes to be the only woman in a male space.  

    This is super NOT off topic.  It’s definitely a social condition of gym life.  I’ve been lucky to meet a free great, generous & skilled women, and I’ve met two who had it out for any women perceived to take coach attention from them. Sometimes it’s sexual,  sometimes it’s Daddy issues (both?).  But either way like you & Sylvie pointed out, it’s a side effect of scarcity.  I like your Realpolitik attitude (“more power to the sexy girl garnering attention, or the rough girl destroying shins).  🙏🏽 

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  15. 1 minute ago, AndyMaBobs said:

    Should you ever find yourself in London, you'd be more than welcome to come over and train. 🙂 

    I think that regardless of athleticism or male or female egos that affect how someone trains and fights, fighting is a human thing. We all do it - so it doesn't come as a surprise to me that men and women are just as scrappy

    Thank you!!

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  16. 4 minutes ago, LengLeng said:

    ...and in terms of difference between men and women from a student perspective I feel the biggest difference is how women and men are treated not the way they act. I might be wrong, but there are all these kind of student types and in my experience both women and men display these types. 

    The hardest sparring I always get from women (or uncontrolled newbie guys) probably as a consequence from women sparring mainly (bigger) men and used to go hard. 

    I've been told though by western guys, they feel women have it easier in Thailand because we get taught more tricks (perhaps because of flirting or we're not seen as threats) whereas guys are supposed to figure themselves out on their own. Even among western fighter guy friends secrets are not shared. Which was a surprise to me and threw me out off this "it's so unfair because I'm a woman"-loop a bit (although it definitely still sucks being read as a woman in many ways). 

    Oh that's interesting.  I always love being underestimated ("not seen as threat") cause it gets you in the door so many places in life, insulting as it can be.  I wonder if the lack of sharing and competitiveness for Western men in Thailand is because of being a threat, or general non-compliant or unknowingly disrespectful behavior.  Anyway huge cheers to the advantages of going in slick (poor little female), getting the tricks!

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  17. 7 minutes ago, AndyMaBobs said:

    I am speaking purely from my anecdotal evidence of training and training with men and women. One of my students is a friend of mine, who is a FTM transman who is currently in his first steps of hormone therapy (but he's at the very beginning of his training, so I haven't much to say), I've coached several men and several women. I also say this with the preface that I am not a veteran coach or fighter.

    Talking athletically there's not much I can say that any other person won't say - but in terms of actually coaching and interacting, here are my observations: 

    I tend to find that women are more comfortable kicking to the body and head straight out of the gate regardless of experience. I think that is because of the popularity of dancing, which is so popular among little girls here - I do not tend to find that flexibility ever leaves you. I've always found men have more speed and power but also more ego. Ego's not a bad thing either, and I should stress that nearly every man I've trained has been a lovely well adjusted person, but I've found men are more likely to argue with what I'm teaching them, and men are more likely to get frustrated with themselves if they make a mistake or are unable to complete exercises. 

    I've never had a woman argue with me about whether or not a technique is right or wrong and while I'm sure women will be frustrated by the training or by me, I've not known them to outwardly show it. I also find that women tend to be shy and it usually takes a while to build up their confidence on the pads as they're getting to know you. Men just start smashing the pads as hard as they can regardless of form. I usually have to tell guys to calm down, and tell girls to hit harder. 

    With beginners I particularly notice that men are more likely to stand quite wide, and swing from far away as though they're imitating a boxer. Women I find often do what I call a 'cat paw' where they hit with their hand coming palm first from their stance. I do not know why this is.

    Obviously this isn't the be all and end all, everybody is different but these are the observations I've had. 

    The women I've trained, trained for fitness and to learn a martial art and self defence for fun - and when you ask them if they want to fight the answer you get will really vary. Every guy I've ever coached (many of whom are teenager) wants to fight but those that actually DO fight are few. 

    At my gym the fight team coach is a woman (I don't want to name drop her here for privacy reasons, but she is well known for defeating Julie Kitchen + Joanna Jedrzejczyk)  - and many of our more notable fighters have been women (Claire Haigh, Geraldine O'Callaghan, Chalih Bassanah etc.) most of whom were there before I joined, and also tough as nails. The main thing between men and women that I think is the same is the actual fight in them - and I don't mean wanting to compete, but when they're training to push through and in competition their grit when it comes to throw down. I've seen men and women give up, and I've seen men and women giving it their absolute all. That's is what is in my view most important! 
     

    Andy this is gold.  So interesting about the wide stance for men, and I know the "cat paw" well lol.  Funny that it is universal.  I appreciate you getting so concrete about how men and women actually work in a gym.  Your gym sounds like a great place and I like what you say about the actual "fight in them".  That must be something you can only see under duress, and its beautiful that it has NOTHING to do with gender.  Love it.

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  18. 10 minutes ago, Oliver said:

    Again, hard to pay attention to it when really tired and doing something difficult, but one noticeable thing from those days was the weight issue. Say a real tall girl with the build of a South American tennis player needs a partner, she tends to prefer (and prob improve more) partnering with the guy who's like 72 or 76kg. If there's another girl there who is way way lighter, the trainer partners them up together, and some of them don't like that.

    Yes the size issue really plays into it.  I love getting partnered with people my size although in the end my favorite training partner is 11 inches shorter than me, 30 lbs lighter.  She may not like dealing with me but she's the best (Michelle Duff).  Thanks again for your thoughts.

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  19. On 5/7/2019 at 10:07 AM, Pat Cornett said:

    Hello, and thank you Sylvie for suggesting this. 

    First I would like to say this is going to get a bit wordy cause a story like this just can't be told in just a few words. 

    My name is Pat Cornett. I'm a Thai American that goes back and forth from USA to Thailand to visit family. I train Muay Thai at Sityodtong LA. When visiting family in Thailand, my family elders would sometimes mention the Legend of my grandmother's brother Sakchai who was a muay thai champ that was handsome and murdered. I didn't know how famous he was then. Family was very humble about it. 

    On my last visit 2 years ago my auntie brought Sakchai up again. So I asked if we had any photos. Only one. And it was a big funeral one which had his real name and fight name written on it. I took a picture of it. Thai can be tricky but Sakchai Nakpayak can translate as winning with honor - phantom tiger or ghost tiger.

    Back home in the states I decided to Google his name exactly how I thought it would be translated. Only one result which lead me to an old muay thai forum which had a scan of my uncle. Little did I know this was a start of a big rabbit hole. 

    One day I decided to message Sylvie and see if she's caught any word of my uncle since she's been around so many master's. I was chancing it. She took a picture of some of the pages my uncle was featured in that she owns. It has his record and a few details on his death. He beat almost all the top guys in the early 1950s including Sagat's grandfather Suk. It didn't stop there on my research.

    One day I decided to go back to that old forum to find any further info. One of the commentors who posted scans mentioned the authors name. Alex Tsui. And by golly he has a facebook! I've been talking back and forth with this author and he knows just about everything on Sakchai. He's actually a muay thai historian from China of all places.

    Alex has been sending me tons of photos and newspaper articles. And there are talks of a movie. I have dedicated a whole album to my uncle which is open to the public on facebook. I know this probably wouldn't mean much to a whole lot of people and by all rights there are still living master's and champs doing their thing fighting and teaching. But it's amazing to me. I was raised American by my dad. There was a time many years ago that I put my Thai culture aside and just wanted to fit in with the people around me. My parents divorced and finding another thai person was like finding a unicorn.

    Sakchai is from Chon Buri. Has a surviving sister. My family contacted her for me if we can find out his gym name. She doesn't remember. But author Alex believes it's called Rayong Blood. Sakchai had a brother who also trained muay thai but passed away. His brother had 3 kids which my family kind of lost touch with. We only know them by nickname. A son named Dtoi or Toy. A daughter who is about 60 years old named Dtauw. The other son's name my mother forgot. Their last names should be Prianprakdee. 

    Anyway, this is my cool story. I hope you enjoyed it. I haven't come to the end of the rabbit hole and there is much more information out there. It's just not easy to come by

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    Thank you for this beautiful story, Pat.  Quite a magnificent relative (so handsome too).  Look forward to seeing what else you find out.

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