Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu

Muay Thai Rules The commercial generalization of a diverse art and sport into codified rules (legalization), is not entirely unlike AI generalizing living language into patterns...without actually understanding language. It moves from the specifically general, to the generally specific, via algorithm. This is to say that the specificity of a verdant expression, a concratized variety, then becomes refined as a specific generalization (a governing rule, laws), for the purposes of export, rules/laws not really involved in the generation of the concretized variety itself. Relevant graphic:

At times I think to myself "now, is a good time to dig into Sylvie's record". It's found here on Google Sheets, with links to every fight, estimated weights of opponents, details and notes. It's one of the most comprehensive and thorough public records of fighting in Thailand ever, if not the most. The reason why I occasionally find myself cycling back into it is that its a record like no other in the history of Muay Thai fighting in the world, especially among female fighters, so it is quite hard to assess. Comparison is how we like to values and in many ways Sylvie's record is without comparison. Also, if the work is not done, the story is not written, it will fall to forgetting, and sport survives through remembrance. One of the biggest issues of comparison is just its sheer size. She is coming on 300 fights fought. She likely holds the record for most documented fights fought by a female fighter (an amateur boxer, I'm sorry I don't have her name at hand) is very close to the same. She definitely is the female fighter with the most documented pro fights, regardless of combat sport, there isn't really a somewhat second place (that I know of). And, most of her opponents are opponents you would never hear of unless you are extremely knowledgeable about Thailand female Muay Thai (from 2012-present), about as niche a combat sport knowledge as there is. Far from international coverage there are 1,000s upon 1,000s of Muay Thai fights fought, not near the capital, as Thailand is the home of Muay Thai and fighting in the sport is culturally robust. Each region has local champions or elite fighters, many of which would not find their way to Bangkok (particularly before the recent rise of Entertainment Muay Thai and Soft Power initiatives); there is an entire network of side-bet (gambling) fighting throughout the provinces, in their cities, towns and wats. Some of these female fighters find their way to Bangkok, increasingly now they do, but in the years Sylvie was most active many did not. So, we are left with a relatively unknown reservoir of talent which does not register on the common Western fan's radar. So, what I did was take out all fighters in Sylvie's record who have not reached Western awareness (including only those that also would have, anachronistically). The list is of all fighters who have at one time, before or after Sylvie has fought them, been World Champions for International orgs (incl: WBC, WPMF, WMC, WMO, IFMA). These are fighters who at one point were regarded as the best in their weight class in the World. 39 times Sylvie has fought these one-time World Champions. Below records her opponents and her record against them. 18 fighters in all. Sylvie von Duuglas-Ittu vs World Champions *adding to this Sylvie's 3 World Titles (WBC, IPCC 2x) The second difficulty in assessing Sylvie's record is that unless any female fighter (likely in history) she has fought well out of her weight class, sometimes 3 or 4 weight classes up. In her voracious drive to fight as much as possible she took fights that just no other officially managed fighter would take. Because she grew within the sub-culture and its language she was able to operate like a free-agent, booking her own fights. Because she was not represented by a powerful gym, or a powerful promotion, she could take fights that would be far outside the possibility of opportunity for others. This makes comparison with other female fighters extremely difficult, simply because nobody else has done this. There was a bold (and beautiful) challenge of Smilla Sundell for her belt by the excellent Allycia Rodrigues, fighting up a weight class (it may have been closer to two weight classes, as Smilla is large for her class, and Allycia seems modestly sized in hers). So much admiration for her to go for it. It's extremely rare for strong female fighters to fight opponents 2 or 3 weight classes up, even among Thais. Sylvie has done this regularly, not only against the talent pool of Thailand at large, but against World Champion skill-level opponents. In the graphic above there is also recorded a rough estimate of how many weight classes Sylvie was reaching up. Most often in Thailand (in part because Westerners are large-bodied, in part because Western friendly gyms have a lot of power in the fight-game), Western fighters are fighting down. Size advantages are quite common place in Thailand for the Western fighter. Sometimes its only a few pounds, sometimes its quite significant. This makes Sylvie size-charging even more difficult to assess. If she was managed in an official way most of the fights above would never been arranged. Gyms like to flex and get advantages for their fighters, and weight is one of the most common advantages pressed for. So, leave aside for a moment all of Sylvie's other fights, and just look at these 42 (including her own 3 World Titles). Notably, these are not champions derived from a single organization or promotion (sometimes champions can be produced out of very small fighter pools), these are champions recognized by different selection processes and politics, a cross-section of the sport. This is an unparalleled collection of challenge, and if she had only fought these fights, especially given the weight differences, it would likely count as the most difficult female Muay Thai record in history, fighting a whose who of a generation of female Muay Thai fighters within 3 weight classes. Again and again Sylvie took the very steep climb, getting into the ring against fighters, many of which she would not be favored again. 42 fights in generations past would be considered a decent career total for a Western female fighter. No, Sylvie did not fight each of these fighters when they were World Champions, that is not even concievably possible, they were not champions at the same time, and fighters ebb and flow in skill quality, but this remains a meaningful cross-section of female fighters, each of which have reached the peak of at least one org's measure of elite. Sylvie vs Internationally Ranked and Local Stadium Champions The additional list below shows the same fights individually, but also includes fighters who have been recognized by International organizations, ranked at some time by the WBC, WPMF, WMC or WMO. This list also includes local stadium champions, most of these drawn from Chiang Mai. Chiang Mai at the time when Sylvie did most of her fighting up there was a haven for female fighting because there was a female Thai stadium scene that was quite organized, and not for the Western tourist. Kob Cassette who ran the Muay Siam Northern Chapter, and the Thaphae stadium fight scene, specifically steered the scene away from Thai vs farang matchups, limiting such fights to only one on a card. Thais mostly fought Thais for the stadium belt, because they were working to build a Thai female Muay Thai legitimacy in the North. (In fact, Sylvie beat Faa Chiang Rai for the Northern 105 lb Muay Siam belt, but was stripped of it after she won it because it should only belong to a Thai). This is to say, these belts were seriously organized, primarily reflecting the best of the region among Thais. These were not the kinds of stadium belts that rotate among various fighters in tourism Muay Thai of other cities. The reason for including stadium champions though, aside from just respect for Thais in the Muay Thai of their own culture, is that these champions would in fact be ranked now, in today's leading procedures. The way that rankings of Thais work for orgs like the WBC is that knowledgeable Thai headhunters and promoters help inform the committee who is top in the country. This is extremely difficult and shifting knowledge in Thailand, and orgs that rank Thais in an updated fashion really need to be commended, but, this is to say, a Chiang Mai stadium champion of Sylvie's era in Chiang Mai would definitely be ranked by this process...now. So the list accurately captures a cross-section of fighter quality as it has been recognized by international orgs, or would be. These are all recognized fighters. There are some supremely good opponents in the rolls below, which could easily have been World Champion if given enough opportunity, fighters worthy of special mention like Gaewdaa (as sharp as any at 45 kg), Jomkwan (who in her prime when Sylvie fought her was as good as anyone she has faced), Muangsingjiew (Sawsing's cousin) so skilled, such a fighter, Thaksaporn (so tough). Adding up all lists these are, in total 149 fights. This total alone would be more documented fights than any Western fighter in Thailand, or more documented pro fights by a female Muay Thai fighter...in history. And all opponents recognized for their quality on an International standard. The entire collection of opponents, leaving aside the repeated weight disadvantages, is unheard of in female Muay Thai fighting. It's maybe 3 prolific female fighters records, combined in a single fighter, none of it of unknown fighters on a Western scale...and Sylvie has 125 more fights not on this list, made of fighters you might never have heard of, unless you were in those communities. But this doesn't mean that they also are unworthy. The interesting thing about Sylvie's record is that because she was not being booked by a powerful gym or being promoted by a promotion, almost all her fight matchups were created within the Muay Thai community, according to what seemed an equitable pairing. Nobody is punching down because nobody is exercising power on Sylvie's behalf. Each of these is a someone who has dedicated herself to her sport. This is the primary reason why Sylvie has fought up so often, and so much. It was regarded that notable weight disadvantages leveled the playing field. The community of Muay Thai regarded as these matchups as worth making, and Sylvie is almost always fighting up against these fighters. You never are going to get adequate one-for-one record comparisons within the sport of female Muay Thai. Female fighters follow different paths, and politics and opportunity combine to present distinct pools of fighters to face. And with the rise of Entertainment Muay Thai it is easy to think that the small pools of a single promotion's fighters may represent quality on the world scale (they might!), but fighter pools remain diverse and separated, generally speaking. Each prolific and great female fighter has told her own wonderful story in the pools she has been able to reach. Just because you may not have heard of a fighter doesn't mean that they lack quality. They might, but they also may be incredibly skilled...this happens all the time in Thailand, because the fighting is so widespread in the culture. Multiple times Sylvie, who has been about as aware of who the best female fighters in the world are as anyone, has been shocked by the skills of someone she faced who seemed to come out of nowhere. And, in Thailand, it is not completely uncommon to show up to a fight against an unknown fighter, only to find out that a World Champion (literally one of the best fighters in the world) has been subbed in, or is appearing under another name. No lights show, no fancy stadium, and you are facing one of the best in the world. Sylvie has fought so much, and so many opponents (now approaching 150 different Thai fighters), that she's learned that Entertainment shows, and org rankings are all drawing on the very same opponent pool that she is fighting. And often its Sylvie facing someone that puts them on the Entertainment radar. This is to say, let Sylvie's record be what it is...wonderful. A tremendous celebration of the female fighting of Thailand, especially of Thai female fighters...it is their sport, we are only privileged to be a part of it. As much as we Westerners would like to lay claim to achievement, what we have come to learn is that Thai female fighters are the best at muay of their country, the muay of their culture, the muay of their people. It's great to be exporting the sport, and building enthusiasm and passion for it around the world, but it all needs to start with respect for the Thai fighter, the fighter who knows it better than anyone else. You can find a spreadsheet of the above 149 fights of Sylvie's Record here. And the Complete Record of Sylvie's Fights is here (with links to video of - nearly - every single fight). We from the beginning have not only sought to be as transparent as possible about our experiences, we also have worked hard at documenting every single fight that we could, because the whole thing is a testament...not to Sylvie, but to all of Thailand's female Muay Thai. Sylvie video record captures the Muay Thai of more than a generation of female Muay Thai fighting in Thailand, including fighters of importance, passion and skill that may not yet or even been swept up in the Western media gaze, and so many who have been. It is an archive of female muay...that's why we record, that why we post and organize it all. You honor your opponents when you name them, and record their efforts in anyway, when you send their passion and commitment forward to the eyes of others. Also...and not less than this, Sylvie's commitment has been to the belief that the best way to love Muay Thai, and to know Muay Thai, is by fighting. She realized early on that generally belts meant very little compared to the actual experience of fighting itself. Fight everyone, fight often, that is the only way to come in contact, intimately, with the art and sport itself. Have those experiences. Each and every time you come out of a fight transformed, changed, grown. Take challenges, fight up! Each fight is precious, and this is the same feeling she has coming up on 300. If you think you are good at 50 fights, try 75, try 100, you'll be better, you'll know something more, something else. You'll love the art and sport more. The documentation of it all, is about that. This isn't to say that if you fight in other ways, under other standards of excellence, in different fighter pools, you are less great or wonderful. There are so many ways of fighting, of measuring, competing, becoming recognized, and fighters and their teams necessarily compare themselves. That's all good, its part of the passion. This is just to present this one wonderful example, hopefully to inspire this kind of fighting, if only a little bit.

Sylvie's Elitely Difficult Fight Record Just organizing Sylvie's record a little bit this morning, and noting this. It may very well be that no female Muay Thai fighter has fought a tougher collection of opponents than Sylvie has in the 39 fights. These are all her opponents who have been World Champion at one point in their career, and Sylvie's record against them. What is unparalleled, I believe, isn't the sheer number of World Champion quality of fighters, but also how many times she went up in weight to face them, including jumps of multiple weight classes. Weight is the single most determining factor of fight match up fairness, whereas Sylvie has consistently fought much higher than her weight even against elite level fighters. I can't think of a fighter who has done this.

How to Judge a Long Term Muay Thai Gym in Thailand A perspective of Muay Thai gyms in Thailand, from someone who has seen a few (usually with an eye towards: would this be a good place to train for Sylvie?) I've already written at length on the Authenticity of Muay Thai gyms, this is something else. This is something else. It's just a basic conception we've relied on in judging gyms. I see them something like production lines in a factory, maybe like a cupcake factory. This is not to say that the workings of a Muay Thai gym in Thailand are mechanistic, but rather that the dynamics of the gym may be occluded from view. You have all these gears and mechanisms, many of them you might not even understand or appreciate. Ways of training, reputation, social hierarchies & politics in the gym, the personality of the owner, fight promotion alliances, its a whole living thing in Thailand. But, what you want to look at...what I look at, is "what does it produce?" What cupcakes come down the conveyor belt? That's what the whole process is doing. Now, this is a little complicated in Thailand because in terms of Thais bigger name gyms actually buy their cupcakes already made. They buy them baked. They might put them through an additional process, develop them some, but mostly they were made elsewhere, by other processes. Their core skill sets, sense of timing, eyes, defensive prowess have already been "made". If its an Entertainment Muay Thai oriented gym they may now be training combos much more (added on top of their core skills), or hitting the gym for strength. If in trad shows the fighters may just be more tuning up and staying in shape and sharp. As someone coming long term to Thailand you probably, on the other hand, really want to get into the deeper processes themselves, which may not be where big name fighters are. There could be very good training around big name fighters, but it isn't likely developmental training, the thing that makes the cupcakes. For that you need to see Thai kids and teens. On another level though, many gyms have long term Westerners (and others). Pay less attention to the supposed training and trying to judge that from afar, and more paying attention to the way farang fight that have gone through that process over time. See what foreign cupcakes are coming down the conveyor belt. What do they fight like in the ring? What skills or styles do they show? Look for the kinds of cupcakes being made that you want to be like. Long-term farang usually settle into a training culture of their own in a gym, and may be even more important than the training prescription itself when it comes down to what the gym is going to make of you, because one is always taking cues from those to the left and right of you. It's one of the beautiful things about Thailand. Things like: how fast do you wrap your hands, how much do you chit-chat, do you do full rounds on the pads, do you do shadowboxing, or finish the run will be shaped by your co-fighters (students). I remember in our first year of Lanna 30 minute hand wrapping in the morning was kind of a thing, a thing Sylvie had to consciously fight against, because its was the gym tempo. Gyms might have reputations, good or bad, but look at what they actually make. That way you can align your desires to commitment. I want to undergo that. And...if the kinds of fighters coming out of a gym, made by that gym, both Thai and farang, aren't the kind of things you like, perhaps move away from that gym, because if you undergo those processes you too will look like that, those cupcakes. This isn't to criticize gyms, there are all kinds of cupcakes. This is actually one of our ways of thinking about gyms, for Sylvie (and sometimes others). To see the value of the forces that are at play, see what they do, and think: do I want some of that? Now for Sylvie who is intensely experienced (and pretty much fluent in Thai), and who has unusual requirements in Thailand (her size, her desire to be near Thai culture & training ethics, some freedom from Thai politics), things are a bit more complex. We think about this in layers. We look at gyms and see what cupcakes they make, and take from that a certain education about what the processes will do to you. Sometimes the cupcakes that are coming out of a gym might not be all that awesome, in terms of what you want to be, but you can still learn valuably from what is produced. Sometimes you can be: I want to train at this gym for this reason, or that (but I have to be careful because I don't want to be turned into that kind of fighter, the kind that this gym's processes tend to produce). With this you can ward off, or look for those things that make that kind of fighter, or...take precautions to look for these things in oneself. A great deal of training in a gym is unconscious. You become shaped by people training beside you, for better or worse. That's why the cupcake example is important. You don't necessarily have to identity what is producing quality x or y...you just have to be aware that this is what tends to happen. Sometimes its as simple as: This gym produces lazy fighters, this gym produces very tough fighters. Even broadbrush things like this come out of the culture of a gym and its practices. The way that authority and values are exercised, the aesthetics of its muay. This alone might be a reason to train at a gym, or avoid one. The vibe is contagious, and shaping, even if you are experienced. For Sylvie she build-a-bear's her training, from different gyms, and private training, because its hard to find a gym that has "everything" so to speak. You look at certain things different gyms do well, and try to weave them. This though, is incredibly difficult in Thailand politically, and isn't advised. I mention it only to expand on the cupcake factory idea, that gyms can tend to produce qualities, qualities that draw your eye. To return to more regular examples, if you are drawn to technical training don't just think about whether there is correction in training. Look at how long term farang fighters fight, coming out of that gym. If you are looking for Muay Khao training, do the long term farang from that gym fight as strong Muay Khao and clinch fighters? Look at Instagram and Facebook pages and watch some fights, if you are researching seriously. Off the top of my head if you want an example from female fighting I'd take a look at Alycia and Barbara at Phuket Fight Club, something I've thought about. I haven't a clue what their training is like, and I really don't care that they are on big name promotions. If you look at the two fighters you can see what they train. They are both intensely driven, have sound principles, fight within themselves (what they know they do well), have a core, effective forward style, are tough minded with a technical dimension and are open to clinch. There are many important things that could probably be said in much more detail by people in the ground, but you can see what the gym has made, its processes. Jalill Barnes who also trains there, much of the same qualities. I'm not even recommending the gym (I don't know much about it), I'm just using the example to show how you can see the process in fighters. I don't mean to single it out, but I needed an example to keep the whole thing from being too abstract. It's not that everyone fights the same, or even that a gym has a style (some might). It's that certain qualities get disseminated through the process of training, and a gym's support or allowance of those qualities. Sometimes this is expressed in style, sometimes in other things. But, largely when positive qualities show themselves, things you are looking for, this is a good thing. It means that there is a consistent way.

Sylvie Prolific Fighting counted it up just now, Sylvie is 4 opponents away from having faced 150 Thais in the ring. Unheard of fighting in Thailand.

Fighting Big It's crazy, just looking at Smilla's record, a very fine fighter and possibly this gen's best fighter (?). Of the 17 documented fights, Sylvie has fought TWO of Smilla's opponents (Pornpan & Nongbiew, 1-1), and also 2 high profile opponents of her opponents (Dongkongfah - who beat Alycia Rodrigues for the Thailand belt & Hongthong who beat Diandra Martin on RWS). Smilla is a 125 lb fighter, Sylvie a 100 lb fighter. One of these was a ways a back, so Smilla, who I love as a fighter, wasn't as big probably....but it goes to show that Sylvie has fought pretty much more than a full generation of Thai female fighters, across all weight classes. And Sylvie is 4-3 against them.

This was good on Reddit a few years ago: The Game Logic of the Danced Off 5th Round in Thailand's Muay Thai I was having a great conversation with Sylvie about the nature of Thailand's Muay Thai this morning, and why when you have the lead in the fight, traditionally, you begin to retreat and defend that lead, instead of marching forward and adding more pressure. You ostensibly "perform your lead" by taking defensive tactics, which to many parts of the world looks like the opposite of "fighting". In a comment on Reddit I was trying to explain this phenomena through how someone like Usain Bolt will ease up and coast into the last 15 meters, in a kind of dominance while everyone else is burning hard, because of a kind of excess, "I don't even have to punch it to beat you". This is a big part of the Muay Thai aesethetic. You can read that comment here: https://www.reddit.com/r/MuayThai/comments/pxtv2x/i_think_people_do_not_understand_how_thailands/hesx7fs/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3 The reason for this is that Thailand's Muay Thai is about dominance, not aggression. Aggression can be a tool toward dominance, but it's only one tool in the tool box. A lot of this stems from the fact that Thailand's Muay Thai evolved to express a Buddhistic culture (and a reason why I'd argue that turning MT promotions into hyper-aggressive shows can contain a hidden cultural betrayal), but as you can see from the Usain Bolt analogy, in the West we can understand this kind of "ease into the tape" signature of superiority. Even in Western boxing we can admire the artful boxer who just toys with his opponent's aggression with an artful jab, evasiveness or movement (think Ali or Mayweather), its not all that far from parts of our own sports values. It's enough to say this led to a really interesting analogy Sylvie gave me regarding the much derided 5th round dance off in Thailand's Muay Thai. Let's say right off there are admittedly big problems with the 5th round dance off. It's safe to say that it is an aspect of Muay Thai that has become distorted and exaggerated, and not only produces unexciting ends to fights, its become the signature of big name gambling's powerful influence in the sport. This post is really about the underlying logic of the dance off, and besides its current flaws, what positive values it is expressing, helping explain how it is also viewed. Why do two fighters dance off the 5th round at times? Why does a fighter who is behind not keep trying, keep fighting?! When one fighter is signaling an insurmountable lead, why isn't the other fighter "heroically" relentless in pursuit? Chess Gives A Clue Sylvie's analogy comes from Chess. In Thailand's Muay Thai there is a definite "Gentleman's Sport" ethic that works to compliment it's absolute violence, so Chess is an interesting parallel. She said to me: In chess once you've gotten to the place in the game where you know by sheer logic you are going to lose you tip your own King over and resign. Masters will resign in positions that casual viewers might not even understand. There are a lot of pieces on the board! What a player is doing when they resign is showing their IQ for the game. If you continue fighting to win from unwinnable positions you can be signaling your inability to even see the board. Yes, your opponent may make an unexpected blunder. Yes, there might be buried in the position of some improbable ability to leverage a draw, but largely what is happening is that you are placing yourself ABOVE this particular game. If you struggled forward, not really realizing your fate, your would be signaling to your audience and your opponent you lack understanding. You can't see. This keys into deeper Thai cultural views that regard sheer aggression as low IQ and somewhat animalistic (non-human). You don't understand Chess. Now, there are all kinds of Chess players, and some of them may become famous for fighting out of bad positions and stealing draws. This isn't to describe what one should do, it's to explain the logic of why a losing fighter would choose to dance off. They acknowledge the board position, they are above this particular match/game. Thai fighters fight a LOT of fights. The tournament of a career is composed of many games. Now, once you get the logic you can also see where the problems are. If there are TOO many sprinters coasting into the tape. If there are TOO many fighters touching gloves in the 5th round, the "board" of the game is being influenced by something (or the match making is very poor). In these cases its explained that the chess board of the fight, the position that fighters are responding to, involves the heavy thumb of powerful gamblers. You touch gloves not only because of the "position" of how the fight was fought, but also understanding the powers that shape the fight as well. You can see that the lead in front of you is of a type that you would look stupid if you fought against it. You would look like you didn't understand the game and how it is won. How the 5th round is fought has changed over the decades, to be sure. It has stretched too far into a direction, but the logic of the danced round remains the same, that of the Chess match. Taking Ideology Into Context Too I also think that there are cultural elements that make this hard to read from a Western perspective. In the West we have a big celebration of the Little Guy. In the mythology of the West we have the story of the insignificant man who through "hard work" overcomes all odds against him. There is not only great romance over this ideological story, fighting itself has been an entertainment form that expresses this romance. We see this in the entire Rocky Balboa Working Man franchise. For us a lot of fighting is about this. I do think these stories resonate with Thai storytelling. Great fighters of the past who became champions out of rural provinces, fighters like Samson Isaan (who literally took the name of Isaan), do represent a kind of working class, provincial victory against all odds, but this is in the context of a much less socially mobile society, than say America. The much older cultural stories of Thailand are ones of hierarchy, and layered, group-bound peoples. Part of the "checkmate in waiting" acceptance is probably best understood in this wider lack of mobility, a lack of a more highly Individualistic Self-Destiny mythology (which contains its own social ills). In "seeing the mate" in advance you to some degree transcend your situation by demonstrating that you understand it, you see the position on the board from above, you have that IQ...but you are also trapped by it, you accept THIS loss, in the name of having perhaps a better chance to win the next time. This isn't to say that dancing off the 5th round is the right thing to do, in any particular fight, or even to say that the practice of the 5th round in today's Muay Thai doesn't need to substantively change, it does. But it's to explain the logic of it. Today's Muay Thai in Thailand is trying to take the big name Gambler's thumb off the scale, not an easy task because gambling itself is woven into the seriousness of matches, a fighter's identity, and the passion for Muay Thai itself. It's instead to try and explain the nature of some of the thinking that is beneath a 5th round performance. It is not just fighters taking a break "because they fight so much". It's locating yourself, positioning yourself socially in the game, a game you are ultimately trying to win. If interested in my thoughts on what I believe underlies Thailand's Muay Thai can see my article on the "6 Core Aspects" https://8limbsus.com/muay-thai-thailand/essence-muay-thai-6-core-aspects-makes

Clinch Devolving Channel 7. Muay Thai has gotten into a very bad habit of when there is a lead the ref just breaks clinch the moment it gets to the rope. This leads to just a fighter chasing to the rope, and then break, over and over and over and over. If refs would just let these positions on the rope cook for a bit, they'd start to degrade, and the fighter with the lead would have to do more than just wait for the ref. Main event today. An early count just led to endless ref breaks. Let clinch breathe. It builds skills, narrative.

This caption (below) says "Honestly, this fight was more exciting than ONE", from Remina's page https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=3793175460900201&rdid=anii3llwrR2LSV4j

Fake, Real & Spectacle in Thailand I say unreal, but in another sense there is a reality to spectacle, almost an alternate enjoyment enjoyment that includes all sorts of values, but...it does not count. It is not added to that register of counting and measurement. This, I suspect, also helps explain thrown fights in even Bangkok stadium Muay Thai. When a fight is thrown, even though many will be upset, there is an additional sense of "I see what happened there, this wasn't real". The fight then slips into spectacle. This "counts" vs "spectacle" in Thailand doesn't quite match up with Western concepts of sport, where things are just real or fake, with strong judicial codification. This is one of the complexities in trying to produce "Entertainment" (Spectacle) versions of the sport/art, that are regarded as the "most real".

A Big KO Win for Sylvie's Past Opponent Hongthong Geez, that was completely unexpected. Thought Diandra Martin would kind of walk through Hongthong tonight on RWS, but instead a very sharp KO on a 1-2 from Hongtong. Hongtong looked at a size disadvantage even, and Martin had beaten Amber Kitchen on ONE (looking it up). Our interest in this fight was Sylvie has fought Hongthong 4 times herself giving up huge weight (about 22 lbs), and we almost always are pulling for her ex-opponents (nothing against Diandra, we just don't know her). We know Hongthong and her gym, her gymmates, and her coach well. This is a huge win for Hongthong who has been fighting Muay Thai for long time. I also suspect that Diandra wasn't well served by fighting a patient, "Thai Style" fight. When Hongthong can reset, reset, reset she's on much more comfortable ground.

The Enjoyment of Festival Fights https://www.facebook.com/watch/live/?ref=watch_permalink&v=942850751079497 So enjoying this Udon festival fight stream, found via Egokind (https://x.com/Egokind1) This is the real of Muay Thai. Hell, the last fight with kids was pulling 6K viewers in the stream, while RWS was pulling 2K. There was a Japanese fighter earlier (guessing from appearances), maybe big-for-his-age 12, or maybe 14, who gave it his all as the Thai illegal tripped him endlessly, such a very real experience for him. Just hearing the crowd of gamblers and community shout on every strike, even the local commercials, this is just beautiful stuff. Hard to explain how satisfying it is when it its not just a "show" for tourists. I say this, as two...maybe "influencers"?? (who don't have much Muay Thai, or once had Muay Thai, but now seem to have have quite a bit of animosity), go hard at each other in the ring, right now. There is a difference between a "show" that is a commercial product, and what I would call Thai spectacle. Spectacle is understood as unreal (thus, "does not count", un-significant). Thailand's Muay Thai, in its cultural fabric, can weave the spectacle and the real, together...which is why Entertainment Muay Thai, as a tv phenomena in Thailand, was so hard to read. It was completely unreal...spectacle (Thai Fight & MAX in those days)...but then it started making claims of the real, even the "most real". In festival fights like these you can get an entire spectrum of Muay Thai, in all its shades and colors, from spectacle to the very real. Kids on the come up, Old Men, rising stars, big side-bet fights. It's like a fair of Muay Thai. The most wonderful is that you get the full ruleset in the provinces, including repeated and continuous clinch fighting, and very strong aesthetic sense of narrative in scoring. Everyone understands stories are being told, and they are being told at all distances, in a full range of skills, even among the less skilled. It is the spoken story of bodies.

"Progressive" Training in Thailand Just heard about a name Thai gym's training style described as progressive. Westerners are the worst Muay Thai fighters in the world...let's train like them. smh. On a deeper level, this may be the future of the sport, because the deep-learning training of Thailand's Muay Thai, how it got such excellence out of its fighters, came out of its culture, its sub-culture...which is changing/eroding. More and more those training conditions will not be available, and the lure of modernity (which doesn't actually produce fluent fighters), will always be there to fill in the increasing gap. Unfortunately, this also ties into the very old place Western (and globalizing) culture - its "civilizing progress" ideology - has had in Thai consciousness. If it has blinking lights, its good.

Muay Thai is not a commodity, it is a way of Life.

"Establishment of the original military school The original Dai Nippon Butoku Kai facility was created as a private organization in 1895 in Kyoto.[3] in 1919, Mr Hiromichi Mishikubo (Vice-president of DBNK) made the term change from Bujutsu to Budo. In the eyes of Mishikubo the term bujutsu seemed heavily concerned with physical technique and insisted in using Budo as a mental discipline and as it was representative if the term Bushido. All -jutsu termed Arts transitioned to become -Do and thus became standard terms at the Butokukai. In 1921, the DBNK executive committee decided to make kendo, Judo and Kyudo the main Budo disciplines. Kendo and Judo grading system was established in 1895 and kyudo in 1923. By the 1930s a systematic appropriation of martial arts by the state was underway, fueled in the successful wake of the Russo-Japanese War, sped up even more in 1942–1945 during the apex of Japan's "militarisation" (sengika). This led to a number of "unprecedented policies aimed at making martial arts education combat effective and ideologically aligned with ultra-nationalistic government policy" [3] were set into motion. This strove to corral any and all budo organizations under state control to which the proposal of the "National Physical Strength Deliberation Council" sponsored by the Ministry of Health and Welfare recommended that an "all-encompassing extra-governmental organization" formed between the five ministries of Kōseishō (Health and Welfare), Mombushō (Education), Rikugunshō (Army), Kaigunshō (Navy) and the Naimushō (Home) which promoted budō in schools, community organizations and groups. This was an effective way to expand the reach and breadth of the propaganda being issued by the ultra nationalistic government into the community, plus allowing a clear path to community indoctrination through budō programs; especially notable was the efforts targeting children and schools that is apparent by the amount of funding it received, allocated by a national budget at the time." from Dai Nippon Butoku Kai wikipedia

You asked simple, so the answer is simple, but can be very effective. Just kick under it to the open side. You can even be late on this kick. There are probably a few reasons why there isn't a lot of jabbing in Thailand's Muay Thai, but this is one of them. A kick to the open side is a very significant score, one of the few strikes that doesn't even have to have effect. The jab is almost a non-score. So trading these is pure win. But, in same stance this would require you learning a quick, lead-side kick. It's a very good kick to have, so no loss there. Key though is to not rely on point-fighting. If you can develop this to have some pace (preferably with no "step" in the kick) it can become a serious deterrent, not only to the jab, but also to the straight. And, because you are tall, if you turned this also into a long knee, this could be a significant problem for opponents. These are very simple, high scoring, maybe a bit difficult to develop power in, (but you can do it), answers.

A very large difference between Japanese Ultranationalism and mid-century Thai dictatorship is that Japan's theorists placed supreme importance on the Emperor, who embodied The State, while Phibun's dictatorship, at least upon its rise, minimized the King of Thailand (who was very young). Thailand's Fascism was much more paternalistic, and perhaps (?) volkish, and perhaps lacked the same anchorage in religion that Shinto and ancestor worship did in Japan. Thailand seemed also to be positioning itself between world powers, especially in the decline of colonial influence on neighboring territory (and their claim), while all the same passing political mandates that aligned Thailand with "civilized" Western culture. Japanese Ultranationalism on the other hand was in answer and defiance of Western Culture and its seen-as morally corrosive Capitalist values. I don't know enough about Thailand's years of dictatorship to see if there were areas of overlap in theory and discussion, or if wholesale they were distinct in these ways. Or, if the growing Chinese Bangkok population (China an enemy of imperialist Japan) also steered Thailand away from closer alliance. Phibun, apparently, even explained his dress-code mandates in terms of insulating Thailand from too much Japanese influence of not outright cultural hegemony. This is to say that at the same time, roughly, Thailand and Japan were going through Fascist movement, but they were likely understood somewhat differently. Yet, the role of martial prowess, and even the fighting arts like Muay Thai &/or Karate, as a symbol of National strength, or volkish strength, may have had correspondence. As I've mentioned elsewhere, the rise of fighters like the convicted murderer, fearsome Suk in Thailand has been read as a volkish, anti-royal, or at least anti-urban, cultured elite, change in the sport early to mid-century.

This may seem out of place in a forum that is largely focused on Muay Thai, History and Philosophy, but there are two aspects that cause it to be posted here. The first is that I've long been a student of Spinoza, and intuitively felt that his Philosophy had something to say about Thailand's Muay Thai. I've also written on Spinoza and the Totalitarian State: Spinoza and State Torture and Other Unfeeling Things and Spinoza’s Logic of Affects and an Ontology of Torture, a line of thought I've never seen anyone explore. Spinoza is hailed as instead one of the earliest advocates for the democratic state, and even in some ways Liberal Democracy, and very often is depicted in terms of the immanence within his thought, a sort of liberal or radical becoming. The above Uesugi line of thought does not take my imitatio Dei argument, at least not directly. Instead he builds out of the very distinct dimension of Spinoza's thought, its denial of Free Will, putting that denial in the service of authoritarianism. This is an important aspect of Spinoza's metaphysics and I've never seen it argued from before. (There are corollaries to be made between Spinoza read as a proto-Cybernetic thinker, and Totalitarianism, of course. You can read on Spinoza as a Cybernetist here: Is Spinoza a Cyberneticist, or a Chaoplexicist?) Secondly though, I came to this study of Japanese Ultranationalism because Japanese Kickboxing in the 1970s, as it interfaced with Thailand's Muay Thai, was under strong Ultranationalist influence. Noguchi, a father of Japanese Kickboxing, was son to an Ultranationalist terrorist, (the famed boxer) Susumu Noguchi. The Yakuza who likely funded the rise of Japanese Kickboxing, had historical ties with Ultranationalism, enough to hypothesize that some of that era's ethos, behind Japanese fighting prowess was furthering this political view. And, Thailand itself had decades of totalitarian dictatorship, during which it aligned itself with Japanese Fascism, and the Fascism of Germany and Italy, not only becoming an Axis ally in WW2, but aligning itself culturally. Even Rajadamnern Stadium's architect was Italian around WW2, and it expresses some of that Neo-Classical European aesthetic. Thailand's Muay Thai, in its turn toward a volkish heroism in the 1940s-1950s, could be understood in this movement. It is enough to say that these interests and stretches of history, in Japan and Thailand, along with Spinoza, provide an interesting setting for speculative interpretation.

For now this is a placeholder for what could be a fascinating discussion of the more than ideosyncratic way that the metaphysics of Spinoza provided the metaphysical groundwork for Uesugi's Ultranationalist vision for Japan. For now just a brief sketch, and an attached PDF of the full chapter on Uesugi's political thought, from the excellent Japan's Holy War - The Radical Ideology of Japan Shinto Ultranationalism, by Walter Skya. As Skya worked to position Uesugi's thought in terms of Europe's political thought, drawing lines of direct and indirect influence, he finds no correspondence for several elements which to my eye are significantly Spinozist (the Spinoza of the Ethics). He does mark out anarchist Peter Kropotkin's influence on Uesugi, and Kropotkin had Spinoza influence (likely in just the area's Skya cites), but the areas where Spinoza's metaphysics speaks the loudest are not really addressed. This post just lines them up: They are: 1. The spatio-temperal matrix through which Uesugi views sociability. This is VERY Spinozist. 2. The way in which ancestors are said to currently exist, this is could be conceivably argued with Spinoza's sub specie aeternitatis concept of existence, a unique way of using Spinoza's metaphysics to support Shinto ancestor worship. 3. Perhaps most importantly, as it lines up two of the most distinguishing features of both thinkers, the manor in which Free Will is eclipsed both metaphysically in Spinoza, and socio-politically in Uesugi. A non-coercive authority of sheer power to which one aligns....for Spinoza it is the Universe, for Uesugi is the State as an expression of the Emperor. There are other arguable foundational aspects of thought, for instance the way that Spinoza treats women and animals as outside of the normative "us" of men, arguments of sameness which could be homologous to Uesugi's treatment of race or Nationality, and general concepts of the State or a People as a single thing, and organism (a fixed ratio of movement and rest). In any case, putting these thoughts here, and the chapter. Uesugi Shinkichi - The Emperor and the Masses.pdf <<< pdf download

Muay As Hieroglyphics The relationship is to the muay, not to any particular opponent, or achievement, belt. Those things help you create and nurture the relationship to the muay, and that means ultimately to yourself. In the muay you see yourself sculpted out against Time, in the spirit of emotion, with your body, like a stylus that has been writing in hieroglyphics your whole life.

The process is: Learn to fight with your feet.

Muay Thai is like Ancient Greek, Boxing like Latin. ... a related language.

Naked Hooks To The Body Another sign of the devolving art, spurred by Western example. Lead hook to the body (liver) from orthodox (or even southpaw) is becoming more common in stadium Muay Thai. This is just something that you couldn't do back in the day because you'd be walking right into someone's power. You'd eat a straight or an elbow (or even a head kick) that might end a fight, because they had eyes to see it. Now, even commonly from out of the pocket, defending yourself with distance, you'll see walk-into lead hooks to the body, unset-up, total disregard for the power they're walking into...because you can. This came from Western combo fighters in the sport. More and more things "work" that go against sound principles, because defensive prowess and eyes are eroding. Counters will not come on time, and will not be accurate. Nothing wrong with setting up a body shot, but just walking into it naked, multiple times, is because defense is leaving the sport. And the more "entertainment" influence the sport gets, the faster defensive capacities will drain away.

Sylvie asking Chatchai about this fight above vs Boonlai at Rajadamnern. He says it was a rematching having beaten Boonlai previously, but lost this fight after he got a toe in the eye in the 5th round (if the translation is right). Their first fight may have been in Saraburi.

Top Thais Losing Motivation to Hit Weight on Entertainment Muay Thai In Entertainment Muay Thai Thais losing the motivation to be on weight, from this thread discussion Rodtang missing weight. There isn't a concept of fighter "professionalism", something that is an individualistic economic Western concept: As Thais are cut away from their social obligations and traditional sub-culture, treated like free agents, motivations change. He is making a public apology (which in Thailand is an important move), and in doing so he takes the public face-losing heat off of those, like the head of Jitmuangnon, his family, particular people, who suffer from him missing weight. But, its not just him. Superlek blew past the agreed upon weight vs Rodtang, for the very same reason. The strings of control, all the traditional social, shame-driven dynamics that make fighters adhere to strict expectations, were being, or had been cut for Superlek. There was no reason at all to be on weight really, other than a modest amount of embarrassment. There's no "Be a professional!" shame for a fighter in Thailand. Instead, Superlek got a significant weight advantage in a big showdown fight (weight advantages in trad Muay Thai are often power play signatures), and beat Rodtang. After losing to Superlek who was what 5 or 6 lbs over (I forget what it was), why in the world would Rodtang kill himself to get on weight again? There are no guardrails. All the social constrictures are gone, and I imagine the purse penalty doesn't matter at all, he already has more financial success than he dreamed of.... ...I am only guessing from very basic ideas about Thai relations I have learned in the last decade, as they surround the Muay Thai subculture. My intuition told me that Sor Ae lost face by being forced to continue with the Superlek fight, after an almost absurd miss of weight. In trad Muay Thai if a fighter missed weight like that the opposing gym would just walk away from the fight, insulted (and the fighter's gym would have been VERY shamed by showing no control over their own fighter)..but Chartri or some other factor forced the matchup anyways. Rodtang did the cut, this was really a violation of trad norms. Being forced to be the lighter fighter contains social stigma. Powerful gyms force other gyms to take the disadvantage...so that, including the loss, probably was a big loss of face. I don't know what followed, but maybe Rodtang's easy matchup schedule, which everyone complains about, was to make up for the loss of face?...which doesn't really make up for it. One would think that Sor Ae would just be like: Fuck this! on some level, there's no trad respect. It could very well be that she is on the same page with Rodtang missing weight, or at least being pretty big, realizing that Entertainment Muay Thai is kind of non-professional in the sense that trad Muay Thai is about being exactly ON weight, perhaps in the sense that the promotion didn't treat them well in the Superlek matchup? When you are a powerful gym you tell opponents to give up pounds, not them telling you. There is also probably the sense that the promotion weight bullies Thais all the time, with Western fighters showing up huge, obvious in the ring, being able to cheat the hydration test. Thais have caught onto this. Tawanchai seems to have responded by just getting as big as possible, so he can't be weight bullied. Rodtang may have handled the possible weight bullying issue by remaining in a lower weight class and just missing weight, winning his fights, retaining his belt, taking a 20% haircut. So maybe all of this is just factored in. Rodtang doesn't want to go up and get weight bullied by massive Westerners, and the guardrails that force him to make weight, in the traditional sense, aren't really there. These are just wild speculations, including possible face-saving or status motivations. Rodtang already is extremely famous (this is a big deal and its own reward) and already is wealthy beyond his expectations. What motivation does he have? I do suspect though that the Superlek fight changed attitudes about weight cutting. Again, I have no particular insight or expertise, this is just me thinking about what might be going on. But...the idea that a sense of "professionalism" is going to somehow correct all this seems very, very unlikely. It's not in a Thai fighter's concept space of obligation.