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Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu

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Everything posted by Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu

  1. This caption (below) says "Honestly, this fight was more exciting than ONE", from Remina's page https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=3793175460900201&rdid=anii3llwrR2LSV4j
  2. Fake, Real & Spectacle in Thailand I say unreal, but in another sense there is a reality to spectacle, almost an alternate enjoyment enjoyment that includes all sorts of values, but...it does not count. It is not added to that register of counting and measurement. This, I suspect, also helps explain thrown fights in even Bangkok stadium Muay Thai. When a fight is thrown, even though many will be upset, there is an additional sense of "I see what happened there, this wasn't real". The fight then slips into spectacle. This "counts" vs "spectacle" in Thailand doesn't quite match up with Western concepts of sport, where things are just real or fake, with strong judicial codification. This is one of the complexities in trying to produce "Entertainment" (Spectacle) versions of the sport/art, that are regarded as the "most real".
  3. A Big KO Win for Sylvie's Past Opponent Hongthong Geez, that was completely unexpected. Thought Diandra Martin would kind of walk through Hongthong tonight on RWS, but instead a very sharp KO on a 1-2 from Hongtong. Hongtong looked at a size disadvantage even, and Martin had beaten Amber Kitchen on ONE (looking it up). Our interest in this fight was Sylvie has fought Hongthong 4 times herself giving up huge weight (about 22 lbs), and we almost always are pulling for her ex-opponents (nothing against Diandra, we just don't know her). We know Hongthong and her gym, her gymmates, and her coach well. This is a huge win for Hongthong who has been fighting Muay Thai for long time. I also suspect that Diandra wasn't well served by fighting a patient, "Thai Style" fight. When Hongthong can reset, reset, reset she's on much more comfortable ground.
  4. The Enjoyment of Festival Fights https://www.facebook.com/watch/live/?ref=watch_permalink&v=942850751079497 So enjoying this Udon festival fight stream, found via Egokind (https://x.com/Egokind1) This is the real of Muay Thai. Hell, the last fight with kids was pulling 6K viewers in the stream, while RWS was pulling 2K. There was a Japanese fighter earlier (guessing from appearances), maybe big-for-his-age 12, or maybe 14, who gave it his all as the Thai illegal tripped him endlessly, such a very real experience for him. Just hearing the crowd of gamblers and community shout on every strike, even the local commercials, this is just beautiful stuff. Hard to explain how satisfying it is when it its not just a "show" for tourists. I say this, as two...maybe "influencers"?? (who don't have much Muay Thai, or once had Muay Thai, but now seem to have have quite a bit of animosity), go hard at each other in the ring, right now. There is a difference between a "show" that is a commercial product, and what I would call Thai spectacle. Spectacle is understood as unreal (thus, "does not count", un-significant). Thailand's Muay Thai, in its cultural fabric, can weave the spectacle and the real, together...which is why Entertainment Muay Thai, as a tv phenomena in Thailand, was so hard to read. It was completely unreal...spectacle (Thai Fight & MAX in those days)...but then it started making claims of the real, even the "most real". In festival fights like these you can get an entire spectrum of Muay Thai, in all its shades and colors, from spectacle to the very real. Kids on the come up, Old Men, rising stars, big side-bet fights. It's like a fair of Muay Thai. The most wonderful is that you get the full ruleset in the provinces, including repeated and continuous clinch fighting, and very strong aesthetic sense of narrative in scoring. Everyone understands stories are being told, and they are being told at all distances, in a full range of skills, even among the less skilled. It is the spoken story of bodies.
  5. "Progressive" Training in Thailand Just heard about a name Thai gym's training style described as progressive. Westerners are the worst Muay Thai fighters in the world...let's train like them. smh. On a deeper level, this may be the future of the sport, because the deep-learning training of Thailand's Muay Thai, how it got such excellence out of its fighters, came out of its culture, its sub-culture...which is changing/eroding. More and more those training conditions will not be available, and the lure of modernity (which doesn't actually produce fluent fighters), will always be there to fill in the increasing gap. Unfortunately, this also ties into the very old place Western (and globalizing) culture - its "civilizing progress" ideology - has had in Thai consciousness. If it has blinking lights, its good.
  6. "Establishment of the original military school The original Dai Nippon Butoku Kai facility was created as a private organization in 1895 in Kyoto.[3] in 1919, Mr Hiromichi Mishikubo (Vice-president of DBNK) made the term change from Bujutsu to Budo. In the eyes of Mishikubo the term bujutsu seemed heavily concerned with physical technique and insisted in using Budo as a mental discipline and as it was representative if the term Bushido. All -jutsu termed Arts transitioned to become -Do and thus became standard terms at the Butokukai. In 1921, the DBNK executive committee decided to make kendo, Judo and Kyudo the main Budo disciplines. Kendo and Judo grading system was established in 1895 and kyudo in 1923. By the 1930s a systematic appropriation of martial arts by the state was underway, fueled in the successful wake of the Russo-Japanese War, sped up even more in 1942–1945 during the apex of Japan's "militarisation" (sengika). This led to a number of "unprecedented policies aimed at making martial arts education combat effective and ideologically aligned with ultra-nationalistic government policy" [3] were set into motion. This strove to corral any and all budo organizations under state control to which the proposal of the "National Physical Strength Deliberation Council" sponsored by the Ministry of Health and Welfare recommended that an "all-encompassing extra-governmental organization" formed between the five ministries of Kōseishō (Health and Welfare), Mombushō (Education), Rikugunshō (Army), Kaigunshō (Navy) and the Naimushō (Home) which promoted budō in schools, community organizations and groups. This was an effective way to expand the reach and breadth of the propaganda being issued by the ultra nationalistic government into the community, plus allowing a clear path to community indoctrination through budō programs; especially notable was the efforts targeting children and schools that is apparent by the amount of funding it received, allocated by a national budget at the time." from Dai Nippon Butoku Kai wikipedia
  7. You asked simple, so the answer is simple, but can be very effective. Just kick under it to the open side. You can even be late on this kick. There are probably a few reasons why there isn't a lot of jabbing in Thailand's Muay Thai, but this is one of them. A kick to the open side is a very significant score, one of the few strikes that doesn't even have to have effect. The jab is almost a non-score. So trading these is pure win. But, in same stance this would require you learning a quick, lead-side kick. It's a very good kick to have, so no loss there. Key though is to not rely on point-fighting. If you can develop this to have some pace (preferably with no "step" in the kick) it can become a serious deterrent, not only to the jab, but also to the straight. And, because you are tall, if you turned this also into a long knee, this could be a significant problem for opponents. These are very simple, high scoring, maybe a bit difficult to develop power in, (but you can do it), answers.
  8. A very large difference between Japanese Ultranationalism and mid-century Thai dictatorship is that Japan's theorists placed supreme importance on the Emperor, who embodied The State, while Phibun's dictatorship, at least upon its rise, minimized the King of Thailand (who was very young). Thailand's Fascism was much more paternalistic, and perhaps (?) volkish, and perhaps lacked the same anchorage in religion that Shinto and ancestor worship did in Japan. Thailand seemed also to be positioning itself between world powers, especially in the decline of colonial influence on neighboring territory (and their claim), while all the same passing political mandates that aligned Thailand with "civilized" Western culture. Japanese Ultranationalism on the other hand was in answer and defiance of Western Culture and its seen-as morally corrosive Capitalist values. I don't know enough about Thailand's years of dictatorship to see if there were areas of overlap in theory and discussion, or if wholesale they were distinct in these ways. Or, if the growing Chinese Bangkok population (China an enemy of imperialist Japan) also steered Thailand away from closer alliance. Phibun, apparently, even explained his dress-code mandates in terms of insulating Thailand from too much Japanese influence of not outright cultural hegemony. This is to say that at the same time, roughly, Thailand and Japan were going through Fascist movement, but they were likely understood somewhat differently. Yet, the role of martial prowess, and even the fighting arts like Muay Thai &/or Karate, as a symbol of National strength, or volkish strength, may have had correspondence. As I've mentioned elsewhere, the rise of fighters like the convicted murderer, fearsome Suk in Thailand has been read as a volkish, anti-royal, or at least anti-urban, cultured elite, change in the sport early to mid-century.
  9. This may seem out of place in a forum that is largely focused on Muay Thai, History and Philosophy, but there are two aspects that cause it to be posted here. The first is that I've long been a student of Spinoza, and intuitively felt that his Philosophy had something to say about Thailand's Muay Thai. I've also written on Spinoza and the Totalitarian State: Spinoza and State Torture and Other Unfeeling Things and Spinoza’s Logic of Affects and an Ontology of Torture, a line of thought I've never seen anyone explore. Spinoza is hailed as instead one of the earliest advocates for the democratic state, and even in some ways Liberal Democracy, and very often is depicted in terms of the immanence within his thought, a sort of liberal or radical becoming. The above Uesugi line of thought does not take my imitatio Dei argument, at least not directly. Instead he builds out of the very distinct dimension of Spinoza's thought, its denial of Free Will, putting that denial in the service of authoritarianism. This is an important aspect of Spinoza's metaphysics and I've never seen it argued from before. (There are corollaries to be made between Spinoza read as a proto-Cybernetic thinker, and Totalitarianism, of course. You can read on Spinoza as a Cybernetist here: Is Spinoza a Cyberneticist, or a Chaoplexicist?) Secondly though, I came to this study of Japanese Ultranationalism because Japanese Kickboxing in the 1970s, as it interfaced with Thailand's Muay Thai, was under strong Ultranationalist influence. Noguchi, a father of Japanese Kickboxing, was son to an Ultranationalist terrorist, (the famed boxer) Susumu Noguchi. The Yakuza who likely funded the rise of Japanese Kickboxing, had historical ties with Ultranationalism, enough to hypothesize that some of that era's ethos, behind Japanese fighting prowess was furthering this political view. And, Thailand itself had decades of totalitarian dictatorship, during which it aligned itself with Japanese Fascism, and the Fascism of Germany and Italy, not only becoming an Axis ally in WW2, but aligning itself culturally. Even Rajadamnern Stadium's architect was Italian around WW2, and it expresses some of that Neo-Classical European aesthetic. Thailand's Muay Thai, in its turn toward a volkish heroism in the 1940s-1950s, could be understood in this movement. It is enough to say that these interests and stretches of history, in Japan and Thailand, along with Spinoza, provide an interesting setting for speculative interpretation.
  10. For now this is a placeholder for what could be a fascinating discussion of the more than ideosyncratic way that the metaphysics of Spinoza provided the metaphysical groundwork for Uesugi's Ultranationalist vision for Japan. For now just a brief sketch, and an attached PDF of the full chapter on Uesugi's political thought, from the excellent Japan's Holy War - The Radical Ideology of Japan Shinto Ultranationalism, by Walter Skya. As Skya worked to position Uesugi's thought in terms of Europe's political thought, drawing lines of direct and indirect influence, he finds no correspondence for several elements which to my eye are significantly Spinozist (the Spinoza of the Ethics). He does mark out anarchist Peter Kropotkin's influence on Uesugi, and Kropotkin had Spinoza influence (likely in just the area's Skya cites), but the areas where Spinoza's metaphysics speaks the loudest are not really addressed. This post just lines them up: They are: 1. The spatio-temperal matrix through which Uesugi views sociability. This is VERY Spinozist. 2. The way in which ancestors are said to currently exist, this is could be conceivably argued with Spinoza's sub specie aeternitatis concept of existence, a unique way of using Spinoza's metaphysics to support Shinto ancestor worship. 3. Perhaps most importantly, as it lines up two of the most distinguishing features of both thinkers, the manor in which Free Will is eclipsed both metaphysically in Spinoza, and socio-politically in Uesugi. A non-coercive authority of sheer power to which one aligns....for Spinoza it is the Universe, for Uesugi is the State as an expression of the Emperor. There are other arguable foundational aspects of thought, for instance the way that Spinoza treats women and animals as outside of the normative "us" of men, arguments of sameness which could be homologous to Uesugi's treatment of race or Nationality, and general concepts of the State or a People as a single thing, and organism (a fixed ratio of movement and rest). In any case, putting these thoughts here, and the chapter. Uesugi Shinkichi - The Emperor and the Masses.pdf <<< pdf download
  11. Muay As Hieroglyphics The relationship is to the muay, not to any particular opponent, or achievement, belt. Those things help you create and nurture the relationship to the muay, and that means ultimately to yourself. In the muay you see yourself sculpted out against Time, in the spirit of emotion, with your body, like a stylus that has been writing in hieroglyphics your whole life.
  12. Naked Hooks To The Body Another sign of the devolving art, spurred by Western example. Lead hook to the body (liver) from orthodox (or even southpaw) is becoming more common in stadium Muay Thai. This is just something that you couldn't do back in the day because you'd be walking right into someone's power. You'd eat a straight or an elbow (or even a head kick) that might end a fight, because they had eyes to see it. Now, even commonly from out of the pocket, defending yourself with distance, you'll see walk-into lead hooks to the body, unset-up, total disregard for the power they're walking into...because you can. This came from Western combo fighters in the sport. More and more things "work" that go against sound principles, because defensive prowess and eyes are eroding. Counters will not come on time, and will not be accurate. Nothing wrong with setting up a body shot, but just walking into it naked, multiple times, is because defense is leaving the sport. And the more "entertainment" influence the sport gets, the faster defensive capacities will drain away.
  13. Sylvie asking Chatchai about this fight above vs Boonlai at Rajadamnern. He says it was a rematching having beaten Boonlai previously, but lost this fight after he got a toe in the eye in the 5th round (if the translation is right). Their first fight may have been in Saraburi.
  14. Top Thais Losing Motivation to Hit Weight on Entertainment Muay Thai In Entertainment Muay Thai Thais losing the motivation to be on weight, from this thread discussion Rodtang missing weight. There isn't a concept of fighter "professionalism", something that is an individualistic economic Western concept: As Thais are cut away from their social obligations and traditional sub-culture, treated like free agents, motivations change. He is making a public apology (which in Thailand is an important move), and in doing so he takes the public face-losing heat off of those, like the head of Jitmuangnon, his family, particular people, who suffer from him missing weight. But, its not just him. Superlek blew past the agreed upon weight vs Rodtang, for the very same reason. The strings of control, all the traditional social, shame-driven dynamics that make fighters adhere to strict expectations, were being, or had been cut for Superlek. There was no reason at all to be on weight really, other than a modest amount of embarrassment. There's no "Be a professional!" shame for a fighter in Thailand. Instead, Superlek got a significant weight advantage in a big showdown fight (weight advantages in trad Muay Thai are often power play signatures), and beat Rodtang. After losing to Superlek who was what 5 or 6 lbs over (I forget what it was), why in the world would Rodtang kill himself to get on weight again? There are no guardrails. All the social constrictures are gone, and I imagine the purse penalty doesn't matter at all, he already has more financial success than he dreamed of.... ...I am only guessing from very basic ideas about Thai relations I have learned in the last decade, as they surround the Muay Thai subculture. My intuition told me that Sor Ae lost face by being forced to continue with the Superlek fight, after an almost absurd miss of weight. In trad Muay Thai if a fighter missed weight like that the opposing gym would just walk away from the fight, insulted (and the fighter's gym would have been VERY shamed by showing no control over their own fighter)..but Chartri or some other factor forced the matchup anyways. Rodtang did the cut, this was really a violation of trad norms. Being forced to be the lighter fighter contains social stigma. Powerful gyms force other gyms to take the disadvantage...so that, including the loss, probably was a big loss of face. I don't know what followed, but maybe Rodtang's easy matchup schedule, which everyone complains about, was to make up for the loss of face?...which doesn't really make up for it. One would think that Sor Ae would just be like: Fuck this! on some level, there's no trad respect. It could very well be that she is on the same page with Rodtang missing weight, or at least being pretty big, realizing that Entertainment Muay Thai is kind of non-professional in the sense that trad Muay Thai is about being exactly ON weight, perhaps in the sense that the promotion didn't treat them well in the Superlek matchup? When you are a powerful gym you tell opponents to give up pounds, not them telling you. There is also probably the sense that the promotion weight bullies Thais all the time, with Western fighters showing up huge, obvious in the ring, being able to cheat the hydration test. Thais have caught onto this. Tawanchai seems to have responded by just getting as big as possible, so he can't be weight bullied. Rodtang may have handled the possible weight bullying issue by remaining in a lower weight class and just missing weight, winning his fights, retaining his belt, taking a 20% haircut. So maybe all of this is just factored in. Rodtang doesn't want to go up and get weight bullied by massive Westerners, and the guardrails that force him to make weight, in the traditional sense, aren't really there. These are just wild speculations, including possible face-saving or status motivations. Rodtang already is extremely famous (this is a big deal and its own reward) and already is wealthy beyond his expectations. What motivation does he have? I do suspect though that the Superlek fight changed attitudes about weight cutting. Again, I have no particular insight or expertise, this is just me thinking about what might be going on. But...the idea that a sense of "professionalism" is going to somehow correct all this seems very, very unlikely. It's not in a Thai fighter's concept space of obligation.
  15. Judo, Muay Thai and the History with Japan This came about because Muay Thai wanted to distinguish itself from Japanese Judo (and probably from anything Japanese). This is one of the more murky aspects of Muay Thai history that likely went through phases, depending on Japanese-Thai relations. When Muay Thai was being modernized in the image of British Boxing (1910-30s) Judo also was popular among the elites. Judo was a very International sport, purposely presenting itself as a modernizing, global art. Thai Royalty taught Judo they had learned in England, and Judo was likely taught in police academies...but between 1930-1950 or so (it seems) that Muay Thai took pains to separate itself out. I may have been the growing power of a large Chinese presence in sport in Bangkok (Japan was a mortal enemy), even though the Chinese were a looked-down-upon ethnicity, or it may have been backlash against the Japanese occupation in WW2, which a lot of Thais recoiled from. But, by the 1970s there was a strong NOT Judo ethic, it seems. In the 1970s as well there was a sense that the Japanese were trying to "steal" Muay Thai with the invention of entertainment Kickboxing, which was connected to Japanese Ultranationalism (Fascism). All this is to say a lot of the best eras of Muay Thai were characterized by not having any dynamics that resembled Judo. This is probably one of the reasons why Thailand Muay Khao and clinch fighting became such an artform in the 1980s and 90s. Grappling was refined in a narrow ruleset, so other principles of control had to be developed. Even basic trips that today are common were not allowed. In the early 2000s the sport started allowing trips, and eventually sweeps. This likely changed Thailand's clinch and Muay Khao style a great deal, favoring locking, bigger fighters, using more power, grappling in ways that warded off trips. It lost some of its sinuous, continuous movement, its complexity. The crackdown only seems to be notably happening in RWS, probably because its internationalized, and Thais feel like the sport is being represented...and because high profile fighters seemed to be purposely hooking with very blatant trips behind the leg, which is very "Judo". I'm guessing these two things are connected. The crackdown on the one obvious foul has led to pulling the whole ruleset back away from Judo style trips. My guess. I'm not sure what is going on in the stadia gambling cards, maybe there is some residual enforcement. And I'm not even sure of there is a scoring penalty on RWS (if you ignore the warnings), the ref advisements may just be instructional.
  16. The Advantage of Wealth in Tourism Muay Thai In Medieval warfare, "knights" (really the rich) fought in battles armored, and trained against the less armored and less trained. In Entertainment fighting, if the sole economic and social motivations are to sell product to tourists (not just fight cards, but also every degree of adventure tourism), then one starts to enter into Medieval states. That is, opponents know their role, if they are just working for the promotion. One of the curious, ironic things is that the fear of fighting a "Tuk Tuk driver" that followed Thai fighting tourism through the 2010s, those conditions, have quietly and subtly expanded. Thai fighters are understanding the assignment, even in high profile fights. People worry about fights being thrown in the stadia because of gambling, but there is a growing inequity within Tourism Muay Thai (Muay Thai for entertainment). Muay Thai cannot survive being "fought for the foreigner".
  17. Also I think, aside from even the ideas (and values) inside of all our heads is that what must be respected is just how authentically people experience Thailand in differing ways. It is a transportive country, and Muay Thai, no matter how you encounter it, has a way of opening foreigners up and showing themselves a possibility that is extremely meaningful...to them.
  18. Yes, Lamnammoon is a perfect example (too bad he kind of has left go of his ambitions to restart his gym). He has that aura, that presence, that vision, that ethic.
  19. Thanks for the good words. I used to write a Philosophy blog some years ago, so you could get a sense of my interests and influences from there. Most of it was research around Spinoza, with influences like Deleuze & Guattari, Wittgenstein, Davidson, Autopoesis, Bourdieu, minor influences like Agamben, Negri, Campanella, Vico. Most of the blog was organized around research into Spinoza's lens-grinding and optics. I'm not sure though how to recommend books, as some of the stuff I read feels very, narrow of field? This was my list of 10 greatest philosophers: 1. Spinoza (parallel postulate under a register of power) 2. Plato (formulating the Orphic) 3. Augustine (Immanent Semiotics of truth) 4. Plotinus (Degree of Being transformation of Plato) 5. Davidson (Triangulation and Objectivity) 6. Guattari and Deleuze (Ontology of Affects) 7. Wittgenstein (Language Game) 8. Nietzsche (Ascent of Metaphor) 9. Sophocles (The Surpass of Tragedy) 10. Maturana and Varela (Operational Closure)
  20. Like the Santi Ubon Muay Thai gym mentioned above, Siriluck gym in Udonthani was thoroughly reviewed in our forum, and sounds very much like a similar style gym. We have no experience with the gym, but perhaps the author of the post would respond to questions.
  21. Taking Privates in Thailand Listen. Taking privates in Thailand is NOT Authentic in the usual sense, but...if you've read my article post above (and clicked through to the rest) you will absolutely understand when I say: Take privates in Thailand. And take them especially from great ex-fighters and krus. Because the traditional path to elite, Golden Age Muay Thai no longer really exists in Thailand, or at the very least is highly fragmented, learning directly from the men who lived and were shaped by that process in concentrated one-on-one sessions is probably the best single thing you can do. These skills, that knowledge, was not developed in that way (one on one instruction), but these men hold knowledge that nobody on earth holds, come out of their own experiences and their continuous living in the sport especially at the highest Age of its development. There is no replacement, and its time is limited. So, while you will not be learning in the kaimuay churn in these sessions, and instead will be directly interacting with a great fighter or kru, what is being taught is in some ways the most authentic. And, if you aren't in Thailand, the Muay Thai Library is probably your only way of coming in consistent contact with it (aside from having such a great Thai kru yourself).
  22. How Authentic is Your Muay Thai Gym in Thailand? this is a totally idiosyncratic, somewhat in fun, somewhat in all seriousness list of traits that can be added up. If the gym adds up to over 110 it's officially "authentic". This is just to add detail and perspective, not a real judgement.
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