AndyMaBobs

It made him a formidable fighter in his own right, regardless of our own takes on it. Cheers for keeping it friendly! Even if we may not agree

I think it's terminology or the way I articulate something vs how you would, because I agree with what you're saying. The way I was taught my padwork by my coach (he's a Thai fella) is very different from how other westerners were. It's not simulated sparring in the core of it sure, but compare Thai padwork to some of the mindless padwork you'll see in Western gyms and I think you'll see what I mean. Padwork in a US Thai gym (and sadly a lot of the UK) is just glorified cardio boxing. It's harder to articulate what I mean because it's not a live conversation here its a forum - so less context This resembles a fight much more than what I see done in the UK. When you've got pro fighters it gets better (in regards to muay thai at least)

Honestly, I would say get the cheaper option! If they're the same price I personally recommend the banana bag, because unless you're training on a soft mat at home, falling over from a missed kick on the regular bag or from losing footing because you have to throw to the body on the regular bag would cause some accidents. I tend to use a half bag normally unless I'm specifically working on leg kicks or 'freestyling'. If you're gonna start swanging and banging the bag though, make sure you've got some decent handwraps/gloves (bag gloves would do) and that you're making a proper fist! Just to keep as safe as possible

A while ago I was trying to research where Muay Thai, Kun Khmer, Lethwei etc. I was trying to write an article on it, because they are all so clearly the same art just interpreted in slightly different ways. I got in touch with Antonio Graceffo (Brooklyn Monk) because he was the guy that really lived with kun khmer and bokator, which was the martial art I initially suspected might be the mother art to them all. Through talking to him and his articles and research, ultimately we came to the conclusion that there just isn't enough available information to really say either way about anything. He said that kun khmer fighters claim that it is older than muay thai, and that it probably is - but the khmer rogue destroyed so much of Cambodias written history, of which there wasn't much to begin with - that there really isn't a way of knowing. When it came to Lethwei - something I did learn was that Lethwei wasn't actually practised in the part of Lethwei that became Thailand. Though it is clearly related. It's a real challenge to find anything concrete about it - and ultimately I abandoned the article - I just didn't know enough and without actually being in Asia, I had no proper way to learn more because I had no primary sources to go on. The most I could do was talk to Mr. Graceffo, and while he was very helpful even he admitted that there was a lot he didn't know. To reply to the actual story you've posted though... I love how hard he works, especially using chains as battle ropes. He sounds like a very inspiring man! I hope he gets to One.

Did you get the answers you needed?

Yup, know know. Thought it wouldn't make a difference either way. You can go to Levantar Athletics on YouTube to see the training at Toccos (I know their head coach quite well) and I've taken lessons from the head coach at CBA. It's not a curious way of describing it - it's just how they approach pad work. I won't assume to know your experience, but if you've ever had a thai trainer hold pads for you, or trained in Thailand, you will see what I mean. As I said tho, I'll leave it there because this info and perspectives are easily available.

Something my gym was doing before the corona lockdown, was working with local doctors as something people with depression could be prescribed to see if we could help them by giving them free training/physical activity. I agree with LengLeng, it's a double edged sword. One of my students is a trans-man, who is going through the process of transitioning and all the mental health problems that can come with that very stressful life change. Muay Thai helps him - but it also creates challenges that can in of itself be stressful.

2 People: Head coach of CBA, coached Cuban national team including silver medalists at the olympics. Also the head coach of Johnny Tocco's boxing - which is one of the best amateur boxing gyms in the US. Two of the most qualified people I know in boxing. Too much western padwork is fluffing the boxers ego thinking they've got the fast hands and reflexes - but isn't substantive. The best countries for boxing focus on drills over padwork - and it shows in the amateur scene. That's why Cuba dominates and America has degraded so badly. Too much focus on speedy padwork without practical application and athleticism, not enough on the building blocks that make a fighter. This is substantive padwork. It has a clear goal and focus, it's not just training muscle memory. It's very easy for padwork to turn into drilling a set combination + responses to the pad holders slaps, that only succeed in making you better at that drill - rather than better at fighting. The drill itself becomes the skill that's mastered instead of the drill serving to improve the skill of fighting. I see it all the time - you get guys who look fierce on the pads, but when they get into sparring and fighting they aren't capable of anything more than rushing in swinging and trying to use athleticism to win. I'll leave it there for my moaning.

Pad holding in Thailand is simulating sparring, pad holding in a US boxing gym is usually fluff

Either way you slice it, he won the fight, In regards to the pure act of the two men fighting each other, he won it. I recommend you try that drill that I detailed at some point and see how you find it affects what openings you see and how it helps you improvise with your own sparring and training! Hopefully at some point I'll be in Thailand in the next couple years and we can try it out then!

A fun drill to encourage creativity that I get anyone who works with me to do: Person A - uses a technique, any technique, or combination etc. Person B - responds with their own one, but one different Both fighters are allowed to check and otherwise defend during all of them. They go back and forth, after doing it for about two minutes, they're allowed to interrupt each others combination. Power is about 50% - 60% to the body + legs, 20% to the head (The English tend to be big lads, don't want to take any risks there). The students learn techniques from each other that way - but also they learn the timing to properly interrupt each other. It eventually turns into something like light sparring. What in my experience I find is that my students end up being far more experimental in sparring. They're not stiff and they learn defence in a more organic way (I posted my fighters first competition, and that sort of drilling gave him his movement, which is still raw but very much there). Those 1,2,3 kick type of drills, for me, only serve the purpose of getting the fighter comfortable with the movement and becoming defensively responsible.

Fella don't take a risk. If you're not sure of something go to a doctor.

It depends on whether the drill is understood properly. All the best amateur and professional boxers drill, so do the best wrestlers and other grapplers. It's when they ONLY drill or the drills don't represent well what you're supposed to be doing that the problems begin. The best boxers in the amateurs are using the cuban and russian models and it's heavily focussed around realistic drilling. Drills aren't mechanisation unless the drills are all that you do. The way those Russian guys do it keep the drill very close to sparring while in control, allowing it to bleed over. That's how you can have an undersized fighter like Ramazanov outwork and outmanoeuvre Petchmorakot from the weight division above him. I think you say it yourself when you say that the Thai's drill the basics in the very young, it's not because they're necessarily young but because they're the beginners. Drills aren't removed from any artistry, opera singers drill vocal technique, illustrators will drill shapes. They're a part of it and a big part of what create the best fighters in the world, they're just not the be all and end all. I don't think that Thailand necessarily has the best approach to teaching and learning - I think they simply have the best learning environment in which to develop. That is why I also mention that in addition to the drill I'll teach the concept. If I introduce you to a concept like say for example changing levels, and that is just the concept, through drilling free-form you'll find your own ways to change level and operate as a fighter. Thai's do this, I just don't think they would necessarily explain this to you in the same way. Like, the vast majority of the time when I watch Sylvie working with a legend, she IS drilling. She's drilling in a way that I would call drilling, or what a Russian would call drilling - but maybe not in a way that an American will notice as drilling. There's subjectivity to it.

Here is how Russia approaches it. I think Russia have the best approach to learning pretty much any sport - building from small drills outwards to ensure the little details aren't lost. It's why you rarely see a Russian fighter who doesn't have both great footwork and good punching power. This video shows how they practise making contact and catching the kick itself and getting in sweep position before executing it. More here: Drills that very closely simulate sparring. This has influenced how I approach teaching the martial art. You do drills like this with me and focus more on core defensive and offensive concepts, and then put them into practise sparring. When it comes to clinching I will teach entries and teach sweeps and let you practise them, but my two main guys have to figure it out through 30 minutes of non stop clinching. Compromises and work arounds to get as close as possible to what I view muay thai training should be!

Yup completely fair - dutch guys would tend to be bigger. Thais are unusually small people compared to other nations, the most competitive weight classes in MMA and boxing are like 140-170lbs and in Thailand it's waaay smaller. Class might be the case, it might also be general popularity of the sports. Thailand isn't dominant in boxing or kickboxing in the same way there isn't really another nation dominant in Muay Thai. Not sure I agree with you in terms of muay thai being targetted at the middle class in the West though. It's 100% not true for Britain and Europe and from what I've seen of gyms in America it's not true of them either. Muay Thai gyms in the US are usually linked to MMA and MMA is a sport that is usually picked up by poor people, save for your occasional Brian Ortega

Nice one dude. Have fun in there.

This was my guys first competition. Sharing it here, because this is quite a nice, private forum rather than a place where you can get concrete feedback. Bit of background: My fella is ex-army, was discharged due to injuries that meant he was not allowed to go on tour in Afghanistan. He was training with me for 8 months prior to this, with no martial arts experience outside of what he had learned in the military. These months were consisting mostly of us drilling the basics and an ongoing struggle to get him to fully commit to his strikes in sparring. He is always the gentleman and doesn't want to hit anyone too hard, which I respect, but I also felt this made it difficult for me to judge his process. When we confirmed that he had a fight booked, I came to the conclusion that the easiest way to get him to really commit to power shots was to hone his leg kicking game in order to get him confident, without having to sacrifice too much balance from throwing those beginner body kicks. There was an issue however. I learned that I am not particularly good at TEACHING leg kicks, despite them making up such a big part of my game. I go back to the drawing board, we re-learn the leg kicks and we essentially drill them for 5 weeks. Specifically focusing on reacting with leg kicks and moving backwards while leg kicking along with L-steps and hand traps to keep him fighting, while moving back towards the ropes. This was the end result. I was worried initially, as I am still new as a coach and this is my first fighter rather than hobbyist who trains for fun and fitness. After the first round, I ask him how he's feeling, he says it's good. I warn him that we don't know how our opponent will be coming out in the second round. After more of the same in the second round I tell him to keep doing exactly what he's doing. I found that I didn't want to suggest anything or give him any advice that would necessarily make him over think and lose the work he was doing. There are a lot of things that I want to work on, getting the fundamentals more solid - but I'd love feedback from you guys, Sylvie, Kevin etc. as a fresh perspective can only help. My fighter is in the camo shorts. I had them made specially for him as a tribute to his days in the royal army, the linework in the colours of his team. All the best

That's the struggle with K1 rules. I recall a while ago someone asking on Sherdog where they could learn K1 because the only things close to them were a kickboxing gym and a muay thai gym. The kickboxing gym was a PKA style gym with no kicks below the waist kind of deal. And there comes a point where you have to say 'honestly, just do muay thai because you're learning K1 rules via doing it. K1 and Muay Thai are very similar whereas that American Kickboxing style is nothing like either of them. Muay Thai has had such a big influence on K1 that you can go back and forth between them and not really be too lose. Hell the limited clinching of K1 only happened about 10 years ago. They're not the same thing but their close enough that it's easier to confuse people into thinking they're doing one, when they might be doing the other - which makes it easy for someone to market themselves as coaching Muay Thai, when it's only a half truth at best, outright lie at worst. -- Ramble on western authenticity in coming--- Even among Western coaches who actually do KNOW muay thai, I think there are still issues that hold back their progress. The trouble is, and I learned this fully when I started coaching, the Thai approach to training simply doesn't work with a western lifestyle. You can't live on a gym, you have to learn new ways of coaching and teaching and that means you're going to have to do things differently to how it's done in Thailand. The reason dutch kickboxers are so ridiculously good compared to the rest of the world, is because they focus so much of their training on heavy partner based drills, that keep their training as realistic and close to sparring as possible. So when they learn a technique or combination they have often learned and practised it on a person before they've ever done it on a bag, and as such that removes the element of having to adapt something from bag/padwork to a person. While the efficiency of the dutch in stadium muay thai is greatly exaggerated, Ramon Dekkers was competitive against fighters with far more in ring experience and training experience thanks to that method of learning. My coach adapted his training from growing up on a camp in Thailand, and implemented a heavy focus on partner based drills to teach techniques that would normally learned or honed through a lot of sparring, similar to what the dutch do. I ultimately ended up doing the same thing. A lot of stuff that a coach in Thailand may teach you via padwork, I ultimately opted to teach in a more drill/spar like setting (similar to Karuhat) and remove that element of the pads. Then when the time comes to actually do 5 rounds of padwork they can focus on repeating on the pads with power, as opposed to learning it with power on the pads, then having to figure out how to do it on a person in sparring. When you don't have the ability to train twice a day, six days a week - you have to find more concise ways to learn in order to get as quality an instruction as possible, without fully living that life in the gym that allow Thais to become so very good at what they do. The western approach (outside of Holland) seems to be: Step 1: Learn combination or technique in shadow Step 2: Blast it hard on the pad repeatedly Step 3: Work it into sparring. My approach is: Step 1: Learn the combination or technique in a partner drill, taking turns with each other Step 2 or 3 : Work it on the pads or bags Step 2 or 3: Work it into sparring You can work it into sparring before working it onto pads, but you will already have more freedom and understanding from doing in that way. My approach to TEACHING the techniques (outside of clinch) are more influenced by dutch kickboxing and russian boxing - but the actual approach to technique I teach is a traditional Thai way Is it inauthentic? Maybe? I'm not sure it matters. You have to adapt in order to keep practising the sport you love.

That's great news. Rare opportunity to elbow! Will you have elbow pads? If you want to slow him down if he is a bouncer, I'd recommend going for low kicks. I'd try to use the clinch best you can, just make sure you're controlling his arms. Don't make the mistake of thinking Muay Thai > Kickboxing, because you may find that he's more confident striking, because it was all he was doing for a while. So IMO control his arms in the clinch, go for knees and elbows. Wishing you the best!

JWP says that the title 'kru' is for Thais. Being called 'coach' or 'teacher' in a foreign language doesn't make sense to me. It just seems to me like a way of floating ego. I've been called Kru before, but I prefer people just to use my name. I have a similar opinion of the insistence of 'sensei' or 'shifu' being used in japanese and chinese martial arts. It's just weird to me to throw in a substitute word in a different language

Your kick looks to be developing nicely - and you've had plenty of good advice so far. I would just like to add this: What I personally like for my students is for them to rise up on their toe as they kick. You are not as stable as you would be flat footed at first, but coming up on your toe will make the pivot of the foot that you're currently doing easier, and it also means that your leg doesn't have to stretch so far to get up to the target. It isn't NECESSARY to stand high on your toe in order to kick and be effective, but I personally like it for maximising power. What Sylvie calls 'the golden kick' is how I was taught by my coach (he was a fighter from around that time period) and generally how British fighters are taught. It's in my view the most optimum way to kick, but you will find yourself catching elbows in sparring a lot at first. You'll get better at it with time, but it's also a good idea to learn a wider arc to specifically kick into the arm, because if you're sparring or fighting and you keep kicking into the elbow for whatever reason, aiming at the arm itself should stop that. That way you don't lose one of your main weapons due to fear of damaging your foot.

Unless Dionas is fighting A-Class, he won't be allowed to elbow, but clinching isn't a bad idea if you're strong there. Teeping on the outside will be useful too, because if he's the type of kickboxer I think he would likely be, he'd be more accustom to front kicks which are designed more to cause pain than they are to off balance or maintain distance. You will want to be either all the way in, or all the way out - as (while I'm speaking in stereotypes) if he is an experienced kickboxer there is a good chance he will actually be faster than you in combination. When you clinch up you will want to specifically tangle his arm with your arm, go outside, place your fist into his chest and get tricep control with the other arm. If he's new to muay thai but he's a kickboxer (I'm assuming K-1 style because you've mentioned that you're from Greece, I know that's a stereotype but that's the more popular style out there) - then I would expect him to rip out of the clinch with punching combos and that will be very dangerous for you if you don't tie his arms up fully. Don't think that because he's a kickboxer he won't be able to bust out of your clinch, because they do it all the time. If you just grab hold of him, he'll break out, if you tangle up his arms you'll give him more trouble. Sylvie has a good seminar on how to do it, if it's something you don't feel confident with. Have fun!

This is in part, why I make a lot of use out of one of my students being a very strong wrestler. The level of control you get from certain grips transfers to muay thai training very well - and because of that wrestling background, he is able to ragdoll even the strongest clinchers. Old school boxers used to train in wrestling in order to punch out of the clinch. Having good thai-style clinching really helps my MMA guy, and having his wrestling ability has made the Thai boxers a lot more resilient in the clinch!

The average student holding Thai pads, doesn't really know how to hold them safely. I'd suggest focusing more on technique and using the bag for 'charging the battery' as it were. If your coach is holding the pads, then blast away.

Looks like we're into some similar stuff! The photographs look great it's clear you've got an eye for composition from the now years of camera work