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I started late, 25 yrs old. I have recently found Sylvie's videos interviewing Angie and while that is a huge inspiration for me as someone now a few months into training, I have found the real hook that kept me coming back to class religiously is the impact of Muay Thai on my relationship to my body. I pass fairly well when I am conforming to western femininity but I actually gravitate towards tom/butch expression (undercut, little makeup, "men's" cloths) despite being MTF. For my whole life, and especially the last few years during transition I have had basically hypervigilance/hyper fixation surrounding my body and how its being perceived/gendered and how I exist in space. Surrendering to the grind/burn of Muay Thai has been one of the biggest non-medical transition tool for reframing my relationship to my body from one centered on the perceptions of others, to one centered around learning how to assert myself in space and exercise balance and autonomy over my body. I have a lifetime of sharpening ahead of me but I have found a great deal of relief and reward in the distance I have come so far. As I become more at home in my body I am able to understand how my natural tendencies match up to the various subdisciplines/systems of Muay Thai and serves as a salient anchor for these parts of myself I want to develop in my regular life, and for getting past traumas. Making this post to share this experience, as after the fact I thought it was very ironic that this thing that is so good for specifically trans mental health (in my opinion) is socially and sometimes legally off limits to us. How does my experience compare to yours? Do you know any trans fighters that have had similar or different experiences?

Hey everyone reading this, as the MTL and this forum was the initial factor of me going to train at Bangkok i want to share my experience of training with Sagat for a week and what i learned from it. First of all Sagat is a really nice person overall, He was willing to pick me up with his car and bring me to the training and also take me back afterwards every single day. He also shared several lunches with me and invited me more or less to a fight event at lumpinee stadium to show me more of muay thai. You also get a very nice feedback during training with him, depending on your technique the responds vary from critique, to good, to perfect, to uwee and of course "how feel" with a bright smile. What i learned: 1. Go straight: Sagat teaches of what i would call a traditional/old school way of everything. Most of the basic strikes we went through were supposed to travel the minimal distance. For example the kick is supposed to angle at about 45 degree and go straight up like a soccer/football kick, returning the foot by going directly back. Thus the hip snaps more, so you dont fully close the hip(if that makes sense). Also you dont turn in the shin on the last second like in "the golden kick", he corrected this many times as i was very confused with this. 2. Acceleration at the end of strikes: With punches and elbows there was big emphasise on accelerating "after" the hip and body rotation or even more so at the end of the upper body rotation. This way you can go through the target more easily (like when somebody tells you to hit behind the bag). 3. Straight punches: Sagat teaches to throw without turning the fist. Instead you lift the elbow at the end of the arm movement, so that your elbow (not the upper arm) ist positioned behind your fist, this way you get the "snap" in the punch or at least i feel this way. You also come in on a little angle with the fist, instead of coming pinpoint straight. Thinking about it i believe all of his punches work with the "elbow behind the fist". This way the wrist, the elbow joint and the fist feel more supported and the forearm comes as a whole. 4. Stepping in on strike and afterwards step out: I was supposed to step on every punch with the weight mostly on the front leg. I tried on different ocassions to switch my weight back and forth (like in the chatchai sasakul sessions) but i was corrected about it, because i couldnt get back fast enough this way. He also tried to teach me to breath in deeply before stepping in, so that you have enough energy to throw your strikes. I hope somebody finds this in any form useful.

I will be sharing your words with Angie, as I'm sure they mean as much to her as they do to me. For me, personally, what drew me to Muay Thai was the performance of masculinity, with these simultaneous soft and fluid expressions. I've written on my blog about how masculinity does not belong to men; men "wear" it just as much as women can, it's not intrinsic or "natural" or inherent. Bev Francis, one of the most famous female Body Builders in the 70s and 80s pushed past the "acceptable" limit of muscles that "feminine" bodies into muscles that were heavily criticized as being "too much" for a woman. But Bev loved muscles and being strong for the exact same reasons males with those bodies love them: because it feels good. A pleasure not "belonging" to a gender, even if socially it is flagged or coded to the binary. As a cis woman, this is how I've navigated the very complex experiences of Muay. The parts that are masculine feel good for the same reasons they feel good to men, but I do get offended when folks comment that I "look like a man," or am "strong like a man." As a Cis woman, I have a more relaxed privilege to those offenses because I don't worry about "passing," but I do, at times, fret that I can never be unaware of being NOT A MAN in a man's arena. But vacillating in the in-between is where the real beauty is and, if Muay Thai allows you to explore and express your gender in a more nuanced way, then that's a wonder I have greatly appreciated as well. If you can find Superbank's stunningly beautiful Ram Muay, wherein he is pouring out feminine grace and at the exact same moment filling himself with masculine prowess...it's that. That's the perfect example.

Ive been watching some of Chamuakpet's fights as usual, and I noticed something that mightve been obvious to everyone else. He switches stance depending on his opponents stance. (I watched his fights with, Oley, Pepsi, and Chaidet in a trilogy gomma have to watch some others paying attention to this to see if im right or making an assumption) Im curious about out of the many reasons it could be for what mix or single reason he did this. My conclusions have been the rear knee timing and open side point. Though I thought it might be possible he has a similar mental process as Gen Hongthonglek (except opposite) where he prefers to fight other orthodox fighters because of his mental mapping of the body. And I thought that "hey maybe Chamuakpet prefers the mapping of opposite stances and he adjusts to stwitching accordingly" I believe his ability to do this was one of MANY things that made him an incredible fighter. Just like Karuhats ability to switch was important in his style too. Ive noticed in my switch to southpaw the last 3 months that I actually really like the mapping of opposite stances. PS: been a supporter for about 2 years now since ive started Muay Thai thank you for everything Kevin, Sylvie, and the Legends

My lad 12 spent a week with Thailand either in the group lesson but more often in PT every morning . We found him to be a great trainer with a really good gym vibe from the local and foreign fighters . There were at least 4 Spanish 2 boys and 2 girls all of who fought and won , one in Bangkok and the other 3 in chiang Mai. It was a great night out watching them at the local stadium. Thailand himself was superb with my son and they got on really well, he made noticeable improvements in the short time we were there As a coach he is a stickler for precision , he wants it right and is prepared to go over and over til you get it right . He was kind and funny and obviously cares about his students, his wife and kids are part of the scene and were lovely . He’s held in high regard for good reason , he’s a brilliant coach and I won’t hesitate to go back hopefully next year with my lad

Phornthip Khamthongphanaw is a 19-year-old fighter who trains at the Khlong Toei Youth Center in Bangkok. UNDP Thailand did a video on her recently, which you can watch here. There's also a Vice article by the same journalist on her story: https://www.vice.com/en/article/n7en4d/women-muay-thai-rising-star-thailand

A beautiful thread you have here. I am late to the party but Sylvie pointed me to it today. If I would ever care to analyze what MT does to me past the superficial "it is fun", this is what I would write, maybe not as eloquent though. But as you made me self-reflect today, I realized how deep MT has rooted itself inside me and how it then manifested on the outside. I am definitely in a better shape now than ever, both mentally and physically. People from outside can disagree when they see my sometimes bruised body and my obsession with pain and grind but for me that's the moments when I feel like myself. That's when my most genuine smiles happen. It's been the best tool to reintegrate my lost masculine part back in a healthy way and finally feel as a whole, self-reliant and resilient to societal expectations and pressure. Who would think, right? That the best way to find yourself and your place as a woman could be through such a stereotypically masculine activity.

I was going to thailaind to train for the first time and was unsure where to go. With so much choice I decided to post a thread asking where would be best to go. After a recommendation by Kevin on this forum I decided to just give it a go and visit this gym in Chaing Mai. I messaged the gym and they were really helpful with recommendations for accomodation. Location: The gym is located a few minutes by taxi from Chaing Mai Airport. There is accomodation approximately 100 metres from the gym that is a reasonable price. I stayed in a hotel a bit further away that was right next to the mall. The mall is about a 15 minute walk from the gym and it pretty big. In terms of training it is really easy to get to your accomodation and the gym. The main city is about a 10 minute taxi ride away. Its pretty easy to get around and far less traffic than Bangkok. So if you wanted to live in the city centre and commute to the gym it's easily possible. In terms of things to do in the city there is loads of places to eat and markets seemingly everywhere. Other than that you can look things up in a guidebook for things to do or something. Training: Classes are 7am and 3pm with optional training before this. The classes consist of skipping, pad work, bag work, sparring/clinching. The class is well structured and you are always given something to do. Thailand will often show techniques throughout the session and this knowledge is absolute gold. I also did a few private sessions and got lots of corrections to various techniques but he didn't teach too much so I could retain it. He is an extremely good teacher and would highly recommend private lessons with him. I felt a huge improvement very quickly. It's hard to explain how much my technique improved within a couple of weeks but he managed to improve the fundamentals of pretty much everything I was doing. Thailand is a highly gifted coach and he really cares about everyone in the gym getting better and enjoying training. I cannot recommend this gym highly enough. The vibe at the gym: Everyone here is really friendly. The Thai guys who live at the gym are quite young but this makes no difference, they are technically superb and a lot can be learnt sparring them. The foreign visitors who were also there were all really cool and we all made friends right away. There is absolutely no ego here which was really nice to be a part of. Summary: A highly technical gym conveniently located with a genuinely caring and motivated head coach. Seriously, Thailand is a technical genius. The people at the gym (in my experience) were all friendly which really helps if you're visiting to mainly train as you will be at the gym a lot. There seems to be plenty of fighting opportunities if you want them. I didn't explore this and mainly visited to learn as much as I could. Thanks Kevin for being so active on this forum and making this recommendation.

Hi Warren It was very quiet when I was there. A few local guys and 2-4 foreigners but that can change and I'm sure this gym has got more popular. You can schedule privates for whenever you want. The attention to detail here is unbelievable and I highly recommend you train at this gym. In my experience, everyone was really good training partners and I learnt loads everyday.

There is no video keeping. Patrons get access to the Library, according to tier. $10 subscription will give you access to the entire 140+ video Library, and everything else published (like technique vlogs, podcasts, etc), as long as you are a patron. $1 gives you access to the last 5 sessions we've published, but these keep changing. The truth is that we don't update the tiers very quickly, so right now the $1 tier has the last 11 sessions we've published. But once updated it will be only the 5 most recent. You can see the tiers and their sessions always here, in the Table of Contents: https://www.patreon.com/posts/muay-thai-uncut-7058199

First of all I’d like to thank Sylvie for arranging this for us even though we’ve never met or spoken before , it was a really kind gesture by her to help a total stranger We arrived in BKk last night at 9pm and my son Lewis 12 had a private lesson with Sagat this morning at Jaroenthong Muay Thai gym. Everyone at the gym was really welcoming and gave us plenty of bottled water to cool down. Sagat was really friendly , first they did a warm up which was slightly different to his at home and consisted of a lot of stretching . This was before the lesson was supposed to start so a bonus . Lewis has been doing Muay Thai for nearly 4 years so Sagat spent much of the time fine tuning his basics , like he said perfect the basics and the rest is easy . Junior Muay Thai in U.K. is no head contact but Like Sagat said he will be 16 in no time he needs to protect his head . They worked on punches and guard for 30 minutes stopping to let Lewis get water and cool down . Remember we’ve just come from Manchester England and it’s nowhere near the temp of BKK so he’s not used to the heat yet . The thing I liked is he has great patience and is very enthusiastic when you get it right , his attention to detail is amazing . He sees every tiny fault and works on helping you correct it . Lewis really enjoyed working with him , and for somebody 65 he’s remarkably fit . They ended the session doing sit ups and press ups together. We are going back tomorrow on a Sunday ! If you are in Bangkok and want to train with a legend then I’d highly recommend Sagat , he’s not cheap 3000baht but it’s not every day you get to train with an icon of the sport we are going to Chiang Mai on Tuesday night and hoping to train at Kru Thailands gym so will post a review later in the week

Dear Forum hello, Planning to take the teen group from my club to Thailand for 10 days training. Ages: 14 to 17 ; between 5 and 8 people; Levels: beginner to intermediate (no yet advanced / regional competition level). Purpose: Technique improvement as well as general experience (cultural enrichment). Less important are the beaches and vacation atmosphere. Preferably renting a house nearby rather than hotels. At first thought South Phuket ''AKA-SIMBI'' axis or Revolution X. Season July-Aug to suit to the school schedule. Any recommendations for camps suitable this project? Any areas welcomed. Looking forward to read similar positive experiences feedbacks and recommendations. Thxs in advance, Ced

Excellent thread. We are us. We should express this; whoever we are. Explaining how we can do this through the medium of a sport we all love is invaluable.

It's awesome to hear you studying the fights of Chamuakpet. I haven't looked at them closely in a while so I couldn't say, but I like your idea that he's tracking the openside with his knee. Karuhat's switches seemed to be score relevant, closing the openside when he had the lead, etc.

Hey all! I am just reaching out because I recently booked my first trip to Thailand this fall. I plan on training and fighting for the few months that I am there. My girlfriend and I would love to capture our private sessions and fights in high quality and also share an interest in photography. We would like to bite the bullet and purchase a camera for the trip, just something capable of capturing high quality images and video. I understand the lighting isn’t the best at a lot of these events. Are there any lenses I should purchase along with the camera? We don’t want anything overly complicated and would love if it fell into our budget of $1000 or less. With so many different brands and models and having never purchased a camera before it is a bit overwhelming. I am new here so if this is not the correct place for this post please let me know. Any recommendations or advice is greatly appreciated!

There is a really good 2+ hour video in the Muay Thai Library project which documents the legend Karuhat deciding to switch Sylvie from orthodox to Southpaw. It shows you how he did it, and talks about the reasons why he did it. It's really good: Karuhat was a switching fighter, one of the best, so some of this is just his own ability to step into southpaw, but he was trying to solve specific things in Sylvie's style. She ended up fighting for about a year and a half in Southpaw before switching back. I think its great, honestly. I prefer her as a southpaw fighter. She eats up space a little bit more, is much stronger up front, and kicks better. The problem with most moves to Southpaw is that offensive weapons may very well improve, but defense will suffer until fully developed, so in fights the comfort level might not be there for a long time. Generally though, if you feel better in southpaw that is a huge reason to go that way. And, southpaws have natural advantages in most matchups, you automatically gain those.

Thank you kevin this was an excellent read. Adopting cultural norms alongside shaping one's style and muay makes thailand's martial arts scene so tangible and traceable to the living humans who practice and teach it. Goosebumps.

It is so refreshingly free of norms and so laden with them in some ways. I have fallen in love with my muay and see it as something I have a relationship with, a living expression of who I am, and shaping my muay has allowed me to 'celebrate' the parts of myself its expressing! Thank you for the response!

Before I ventured into the Muaythai world in Thailand, I did extensive research and decided that I would like to spend almost a month training. Sylvies videos about the expanded web of gyms and their preferences turned my attention to Kem Muaythai gym in Khao Yai simply because of her notion that Kem gives lots of attention to basics and clinching. Also, the other part of me leaned towards gyms in Pukhet since this was my holiday, so the combined environment with beaches and nightlife looked attractive simply because I needed rest. I have contacted Kems gym and asked about conditions, etc., but my first ticket was to Pukhet, and while I was looking to book some arbnb and looked at the gyms there, my question was: do you want to train or do you want to have vaccation? There is no mix... Love towards Muaythai screamed training, and in the last few days I changed my ticket to Bangkok and acknowledged Kems gym that I was coming. And boy, that was the right decision to make. I arrived well past midnight, and I was escorted to my room by a young Thai trainer. He just said welcome; running starts at 6.30. I slept a bit and woke up on time for my first running session, exploring steep roads and buggy jungle roads for the morning run. It was beautiful. The first training session started afterwards, and then we had breakfast made by Kem's wife, Mo, and her mother. The food was delicious. But I didn't expect an afternoon training session of 2–3 hours (the same duration as the morning ones), and after it I had dinner and went to sleep. After a few days of pain, my body adjusted, and after 20 days of training, I felt and looked as if never before. Training is tailored to your level, and Kem sees everything, even when he is sparring. From conditioning, basic stance, kicks, and elbows and knees, clinching and streching every day at some point was a fight to survive. And I liked it. Kem will correct every small detail, and when he sees your progress, he will add more. I must mention the other few trainers there who were excellent in every aspect. Pad work was extensive, and they all showed patience and the will to teach if you are willing to put in the effort. Also, the gym is spacious and open, so the mountain breeze and sunset while doing the post-training situps impressed and left a deep impression. With a few people there at that time (Anna, Jay, Yassin, Cloie, and Luke), slowly we became bonded, day by day, supporting each other. It is a family gym, and you are treated as such, and everything is done outside of training so that your stay is memorable. Kem and Mo took us to various venues around Khao Yai National Park, restaurants, shops, and sometimes I even felt he was overly concerned about your well-being. But that is how the real hosts behave. His wife Mo who is managing the place, when I mentioned that Sylvie reccommended the place smiled and said she is a friend. The smile and joy bursting from here naturally make you happy just to see her. Also, I met some other people who got there following Sylvie's review. As my departure was approaching, a few of the guys had scheduled fights (Luke and Jay), and I was so sorry that I had to go. I found out they both won. What a month it has been. Kem and Mo took me to a train station, and we performed good buys. I said Kem I will be back. And I will.

Depends on where you start, you don't want to get injured by adding too much, too soon. I switch between training/competing muay thai and lethwei. In lethwei they have some very intense leg training that helped me getting stronger legs (especially calves). At my current gym morning training starts with: 40min moderate pace jogging up and down a hill. Followed by either sprints (distance and repetition vary) or 3 rounds of frog jumps (bunny hops up the hill abt 100 rep each round) and a final round of uphill duck walks. Frog jumps can also be all kinds of directions (backwards, to the side etc). It always varies, but additional movements are added such as 3 rounds of 30 sec lunge jumping or bunny hop on top and in between and on top a tyre. 10 pike jumps are usually added too. Then kicks and knees in the air 3x30 sec. Or carrying or flipping a tyre up and down the hill. Usually it's about 1 hour of this stuff before we move into the gym doing bag work, pads and shadow. Afternoon usually begins with 4x5 min of tyre jumping (with and without light dumbells) each 30sec you go fast or pike jump on the tyre. Then there's usually some kind of plyometric leg movement added. Important to mention: there is a lot of focus on stretching and after the morning run each fighter stretches their legs and there's also a lot of assisted stretching. If i were you, I'd start with running and skipping then add some additional movements one by one if you feel it's needed. Tyre jumping is excellent for leg strength. But hard on your achilles tendons.

For convenience I also put together a spreadsheet of only Karuhat's video recorded fights. You can find that here, with hyperlinks: A Complete List of Karuhat's Video Recorded Fights Here are screencaps of that:

I'm posting this review sent to me by Naadia: In review - a month training and living at Kem Muay Thai Gym in the mountains in Khao Yai, Thailand There’s a sign as you enter the neighbourhood- it reads I Love Khao Yai Tiang. And I do, it’s impossible not to. With the weather being a little cooler than Bangkok and even the south, this mountain gym is isolated and wonderful. It’s the home of champion Kru Kem (sitsongpeenong). His little gym in a corner of paradise. His expertise is sharp and his time generous. Once you stop pinching yourself in disbelief you can really allow yourself to be loved and taken care of by Pee Kem and his family. And the man can love as well as he can fight; subtly, honestly and wholly. Sprawled out over a small valley the gym and accommodation share the land with Pee Kem’s family home and his large chicken collection. Outside his home is a small, silty fish pond which can be swam in. And often was by me. Huge spaces for dining, viewpoints, private balconies and hammocks allow for space and quiet reading spots. Pee Kem’s warm and bubbly wife, Pee Mo, who takes care of all your needs, made sure I celebrated my 40th birthday in style! They accompanied a student for a visa run, organised fights, excursions, massages, and a whole plethora of add ons which stave off any potential cabin fever. His children help out and often accompany students on excursions and if you’re really lucky, his youngest (7 years old) may even hold pads for you! It’s a real family affair. A short walk from the gym are a few village shops and a bike ride can take you to some cute mountain eateries. Otherwise it’s a true camp experience with two meals, two training sessions and accommodation in the package. And it’s one of the most reasonable around. The views are fantastic, the call to prayer from the mosque across the valley reverberates through the hills, crickets chirp, the chickens cackle, Nikethe camp dog howls back to the mosque, the jungle makes its noises yet peace is everywhere. Nine private en-suite rooms ensure the gym population stays intimate and family-like. Meal times are announced by the calling of your name (“Naaaaadia, dinner kaaaaa”) and food is adjusted to accommodate dietary and portion needs, and is delicious home style Thai food. For some context, I was training for my first amateur fight when I tore my ACL a week before I could get to Thailand. I was determined to work around my injury and keep my travel plans and the trainers at Kem Muay Thai were super thoughtful when understanding my parameters and also helped me in realising that I was more capable and powerful than I ever thought. In bigger gyms I had avoided class sessions as I was concerned I would exacerbate injury without someone always watching me. Pee Kem’s gym was small enough to have eyes on me at all times and I enjoyed working alongside my camp-mates. I’m a contract worker so gym-hop globally and the Muay Thai training here is excellent! Sessions include running pre session, weighted and unweighted shadow boxing, followed by bag and pad work. Emphasis is placed on technique with drills in focus, balance, posture and ending in hundreds of power knees, blocks, teeps etc Mornings tend to be a little lighter but sometimes they’d be some shockers in there! Conditioning segments with weight or ladder circuits also featured during the week. At the end of the session stretching would be done as a group, and Kru Kem and Kru Mee would have a chat and massage students, we were really well looked after. Both trainers ensured your headspace was right too, building self confidence, drilling mantras and “Kemisms”! “If Kem can do, you can do!” “You no scared, you Nak Muay”. I say that so often to myself now! I picked up some extra private sessions with Kru Mee, whose long career in training champs and handling injuries speaks for itself. He honed in on my clinching and really brought my technique to a new place, found sore points and guided me through the reintroduction of my switch and my right teep (I’d thought these were off Limits with my injury). I’m back in the U.K. now. Usually enamoured by the British summers it now irks me. The roses and lavender bloom but I yearn for frangipani, hibiscus and mountain flowers. My ears miss the chickens and whilst my ankles are bite-free for the first time in weeks I can’t help but miss the love on the mountain. I miss Pee Kem telling me “If you happy, Kem happy.” I spent a month with my now family, learning Muay Thai, training hard, but also being privy to life in an extended Thai family, being introduced to Isaan music and dancing, corrupting the camp (a story for another time lol) and making friends for life. And that, for sure, was worth every bite.

I don't think so. We've been pretty much told over and over that no Thai in the country around Sylvie's weight will fight her, so unless they were fighting a few years before we've lost touch with some of the names who are active at this size.

Almost any gym can get you a fight. The part you should consider for yourself is getting to a location where fights are plentiful, so your chances of finding an opponent and a program during your stay are highest. Chiang Mai and Phuket have the most frequent fight opportunities.

This is probably far afield, but reading your thoughts brought to mind this thread I did on how Thailand's rigors of training, the very shape of its hyper-masculine practice, support a kind of trans- experience for Westerners. Lots of sociology and theory in this thread, but who knows it might connect up with other thoughts:

One of the interesting things in Michael Chaney treatment is that he specifically would like to erase the highland/lowland distinction that a lot of historians focus on. This, for instance, in Thai-Siam studies can be quite emphasized. Part of this may be that highland cultures may have had more of a penchant for aggression or violence in combat - for instance headhunting seems to have persisted in the highland regions much longer than elsewhere in mainland Southeast Asia, and in Siam-Thai ideology these peoples have been positioned as "savage", opposed to the high culture of the Capital and its halo of authority out to the foothills of the North. I don't really know the distribution of ethnicity, but have you noticed an cultural connection between highland (or lowland) Burmese and present day Lethwei? That is a very nice data point. My own intuition is that I have doubts about Muay Boran (or Lethwei) directly coming from combat itself, at least large scale combat tracing back to the 17th century, for example. My main reason for this is that practically every piece of evidence I've seen is that this kind of combat is not weaponless at all. Everyone is armed with blades, spear/lance and/or shield. I'm sure every rice farmer was very adept at using a blade for work. If there WAS a direct development of a fighting art for or from military actions it most certainly would have been a weaponed fighting art, and the shield would probably be a significant aspect of that fighting. We can make conceptual connections to how Muay Thai, Muay Boran or (I guess) Lethwei may be related to weaponed fighting...but that fact that it isn't weaponed fighting seriously undermines some of that historical picture. I could though see subduing an opponent being part of much smaller scale raiding, which would be largely focused on slave capture. I think this makes perfect sense. I think trends in culture and expression really change and can change fast, in a decade or two, and not necessarily reach back centuries. A big part of the ideological picture Thailand presents about Muay Thai is that it is the reason the Thais were never in historical fact colonized (the story that is told). Instead it is presented that a series of Kings through strategy were able to find ways to absorb Western influence & control, and retain a sense of ideological identity. [sorry, I wrote all this before I saw that you brought it up! But I'll leave it in nonetheless] In the Thai telling they "won" because they were smart and pliant before a formidable force, something they navigated with great sagacity. You can see how the two mythologies diverge (not making judgements on either). The brief (allied) Japanese occupation left a mark on Thailand, but largely there has been seldom a sense that a foreign invader had to be fought off (since the Burmese defeat of Ayutthaya, with possible exceptions of some of the 19th century slave capture revolts in the Northeast, and the fight against Communism in the 1960s-1970s, and today's insurgence in the South). Largely, Thailand has painted itself as "whole". Maybe this makes a big difference in terms of what fighting means to a culture. Much further up in the thread this is discussed in broad SEA historical view by Anthony Reid. He suggests that even the way in which SEAians thought about property, identity, wealth, was shaped by the transience of wooden houses. This flows into the idea of the perpetual possibility of retreat. Houses were not valuable. The land in a certain sense is not valuable (because fertile land is not scare, as say it is in Europe). Speaking very broadly, invaders or raiders would come, villagers would run to the forest and take all their valuables with them (wealth had to be transportable), and the village would be burned. He presents this as nearly a pan SEA pattern lasting centuries. When the Dutch came and established trading posts in, I think Jakarta?, they were forbidden from building anything with stone. Everything had to be made from wood, with the exception of the palace (and perhaps wats). In the sense or warfare and conflict, if Anthony Reid is right, then raid (and maybe burning) were a regular part of the life cycle, as was fleeing to the forest or mountains, and relocating one's village. The main point was not to be captured, and to escape with one's relative wealth (rice, valuables). Personally, I see in this transience of the abode something even of the foundations of the Buddhist conceptions of the transience of the Self. As the palace and the wat were made of stone, you have the contrastive permanence of spiritual and political authority. This is quite different than in the West where one's home/land helps constitute one's more individual identity much more. The "castle" of the Self, to which Western religions are more focused on. In any case, an interesting speculation.

Yes, understood. It resonates a lot with evasive muay thai comparing it to that kind of warfare. What caught my attention is the stark contrast to lethwei which is very aggressive and forward moving. I have a limited view not speaking the language properly and lethwei teachers or students who do are very few. And Burmese people who do speak English but not too invested in martial arts have a hard time translating for me as the Burmese words used for various strikes and techniques are not self-explanatory. In addition, the sport is dominated by Karen, Mon and Kachin people with different languages. My teachers are Karen and their words for specific techniques are different than Bamar people's for example. But having trained with very traditional teachers and shared some clips with Sylvie, seems like traditional techniques I'm being taught are very similar to muay boran. So even though the sport today might seem brutal and aggressive there is something beneath what it has become known as "most brutal sports on the planet" (and promoted as by western fighters). I've been taught techniques that would pacify my opponent like stomping their foot with my heel, push my thumb into the neck of my opponent, heel kick back of opponents knee in the clinch. Things that are effective but doesn't cause too much damage. Which would resonate with your reflections on capture not kill. One thing though is that retreating is not viewed beautifully in traditional lethwei. And caused a bit of drama recently when two champions met in a title fight scored on points and one of the up and coming champions Thway Thit used a retreating style making champion Tun Tun Min chase him. Thway Thit won (very fairly he scored more) but his backing up caused debate. I wonder if it has to do with more recent history. Myanmar was colonised by Britain, occupied by Japan and since independence oppressed by the Myanmar armed forces with around 26 Ethnic Armed Organisations fighting for their independence (Karen being very successful example). During the recent coup people fought back. They wouldn't have it. They won't give up. Myanmar culture has a lot of stubbornness in it. Which I see reflected in lethwei. I might simplify your theories here by seeing how Thailand avoided colonisation, it evaded it very cleverly. I saw something you wrote about burning villages by the way, this is of course pre-Tatmadaw (Myanmar armed forces established in 1940s), but scorching earth policy is a permanent strategy of the Tatmadaw (they just keep burning down villages as im writing this). I wonder if there's a cultural root in that depicted in the illustrations? Above views are really just my own reflections and very anecdotal. I just find this region very interesting and I'm wondering how Khun Khmer and Lao martial arts fit in.

I wonder if what is being depicted is (easily) identifiable ethnic differences, rather than just a practice. I'm feeling that the tattoos, at least at this time (late 1800s) indicated a people. I believe Burma had several warring, or at least conflicting ethnicities. Thank you for following along. It is a difficult thread, as some of this is just dropping article reference, and some posts are concept building posts. What is interesting is that all of this is very likely the kind of work that just is never attempted in relationship to Muay Thai or even combat sports/arts. The story of the development of Muay Thai is often a very simple one, with very little specific anchorage in history. And in English this story just gets repeated. But, because there is very little substantive scholarship on Muay Thai, one has to bring together diverse scholarship from other fields, and attempt to piece together a picture, create a new, richer, more complex story.

I've been following this thread (very very interesting but takes time to understand) and have some reflections to come on myay thai fighting as avoidance of conflict. But first thing I noted of the Burmese warriors were the leg tattoos (as you point out) known as Htoe Kwin, deeply associated with lethwei. Mainly older lethwei fighters will wear them but some younger fighters have adopted the practice as well. There's a Wikipedia page on this, but the sources on htoe kwin I'm not too sure about, lots of misinterpreted, simplified info spread by Westerners due to lack of Burmese translation.

As an older guy coming back to Muay Thai after Western boxing, I can sympathise. There's lots of good stuff on Youtube, I'll post a couple of my favourites below. Would be great if anyone else has some tips... This is a really good one: These guys are interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bg5ltVL3fok&t=14s&ab_channel=StrengthSide

Thanks for responding and wow, what a beautiful ram muay. I think I really resonate with what you said about allowing yourself to occupy and utilize masculine and feminine energies without it having any bearing on your actual gendered existence. Being able to "go back" into masculine territory with Muay Thai has really let me take ownership over the parts of myself that I was running from and contextualize them into my post-transition persona. You and Angie are literally who I think of when I am overwhelmed and pessimistic about fighting. You both made room for me in the sport in your own ways and I am very grateful. PS, Bev Francis is so dope.

Recent review of Kem's Muay Thai Gym in Khao Yai Tiang: "The training is mind blowing. All three Krus are different but they’re not jusy chasing your endorphin high for you by letting you smash pads and feel the rush. There is so much technique work. I haven’t spent much time in classes in other gyms just mainly one on Ones as I’ve torn my ACL and didn’t fancy big classes injured but we are just a handful here so I know if he’s not training me Kem is watching me all the time. And so hands on in terms of the accommodation and other care eg he’s driving a student to Cambodia today for a visa run. Such lovely people. I’m humbled. And I can hear the call to prayer which is important to me. Thanks again for the recco." Naadia

If both gyms offer a trial class then give both of them a try. Every Muay Thai gym I've been to has been friendly and welcoming, so definitely look for that. As a beginner you should be getting plenty of correction, so that's something else to look for. Class should consist of stretching, cardio, shadow boxing, pad work and bag work. Hope you enjoy it mate, let us know how you get on

Wangchannoi is no longer at the gym, he has moved to a small gym in Cambodia. Bangsaen had indicated westerners were welcome to train with the gym, but it Isa true Thai gym and ther aren't many options nearby so staying at the gym seems most likely the only accommodation if you intend to stay beyond a couple days. They don't have social media in English, so I'd recommend just going to the gym and pleading your case: https://maps.app.goo.gl/4N8wMms2sU3xkeBbA

I was a student there for 2 years straight, the longest of any foreigner there. I loved it. I grew a lot, you chose well.

I've heard he hangs out at a small gym (not as a kru or anything) that's near Samart's, at least a few months ago. I'm not really sure. He's a very itinerant person. He's not really "at" gyms, at least for long. Probably the best bet in Chiang Mai would be Hongthong, just because of the number of large Westerners that often train there (speaking only of reputation, we haven't been there for years).

Unfortunately, Attachai Gym in Bangkok has closed down. Originally, he was opening a new gym in Ayutthaya, but he's now teaching in China. You can find him at Lerdsila Muay Thai Gym in Shanghai.

Hi, new poster here sorry if I'm asking in the wrong thread! I had a question on Reddit but I prefer the environment on the forum and it gives Kevin more room to answer in depth.

Thank you so much! Glad you are getting a lot out of the material. Your trip sounds fantastic, and you've picked some great mentors to train with. I don't know much about the private training situations, but I do think with Burklerk you should stay with whatever accommodations he has as Lampang can be spread out. And Sagat isn't at 13 Coins which closed a while ago. He trains privately in various gyms, often at Jaroenthong's gym in BKK. Sylvie helps book privates for him. I suggest contacting her through Instagram.

Sorry for bumping the thread, but this thread caught my eye. The end of a fighter's career can be as unique as their journey in the ring. Injuries, burnout, life changes - it's a mix! Some face career-ending injuries, and others might feel it's time for a new chapter. Many transition to new careers for reasons like starting a family and prioritizing health. I totally get that shift—I've been down a similar road as a former athlete. So, now, I'm also exploring exciting paths, and I've come across a great option like this: https://www.exploremedicalcareers.cоm/dialysis-technician/. Becoming a dialysis technician seems like a rewarding entry into the medical field, offering stability and a chance to make a positive impact on people's health.

I was in the Manop gym for aprox 3 weeks. Amazing experience, there, you can either go training 1 or 2 times a day, if you go 2times, you can have your fight there in Chiang Mai after 3weeks, atleast i did anyways.

You just need to learn how to feel your way through movements with balance, it comes over time. But knowing where to "check" for your own self-correction is helpful in the meantime: distance between your feet in a comfortable stance, wide but not splayed; make sure your weight is on the balls of your feet and not too far on the heels or the blades of the feet (the outside or inside edge, meaning pronating or supinating (you can look that up on running forums)). Make sure your head is over your hips and feet, not too far forward or back. Keep your strikes reasonably within the "frame" of your body, not swinging too much out from your core and generating power and movement mainly from the legs and torso for everything.

Hey thanks for this! That's as good an answer on the bonuses as I could have hoped for, although it'd of been fascinating to know if it was supposed to be someting like promoting/hyping up Boran (particularly in contrast to how entertainment promotions like ONE handle bonuses). I'm drawing on Vail quite a bit for a bit of historical/political economy overview, although my focus is more on how everyday meanings like Buddhist virtues are performed by fighters (in comparison to something like MMA as having both highly practical/ruthless elements and very performative holywood-esque aspects). Thanks for directing me to your writings - I'll certainly read some of these, particularly as I'm employing Bourdieu which I see you've also done in some of these.

Importantly, the most substantial sources on this would point to this being a mode of Southeast Asian mode warfare, and not particular to Thailand. I'm just drawing on these wider observations and applying them to what we know of Thailand's Muay Thai.

Hey just wanted to say some stuff about the thread. First of all, it took me about a year and a half to two years plus several discussions with you Kevin before I even began to understand what Muay Thai (was) about. But I had a desire to actually understand it. I wanted to know how the fighters were moving and why the fighters were doing exactly what they were doing. The average Western fight fan watches fighting to see someone get hurt or knocked out. They have zero desire to even attempt to understand how Muay Thai was done and scored. Second of all, I see the general trend of what’s happening with Muay Thai now as a direct response to Muay Thai techniques being adapted to MMA and specifically in the UFC. You had guys like Joe Rogan talking about how brutal the sport is (which it can be) but I think Rogan+the UFC are more or less directly responsible for Entertainment Muay Thai. It’s sad to see it go, I have zero hope that it will survive. The value system of Western Countries just directly contrasts with how the Thais viewed fighting in Muay Thai. In the end, I think skills of all combat sports is on a downward trajectory. More and more, I think coaches look for superior athletes and don’t want to invest the time in t takes to grow a truly high skilled individual. Thus all the old knowledge and wisdom gets lost as coaches attempt to simply make bulls that can succeed on pure aggression and physicality. To be fair there will be some exceptions but by and large I see us worldwide going into a sort of “dark age” of combat sports across the board. The only exception to this seems to be sport BJJ but that will always be hindered by the fact that it’s objectively boring as a spectator sport. And even that is straying far and away from its roots of actual combat effectiveness as you’ll notice in MMA high level BJJ is becoming more and more rare because the sport version isn’t applicable anymore to MMA.

Hello, everyone! Welcome to Muay Thai Roundtable. This forum is Sylvie's brainchild, I am here to help moderate. For those of you who aren't familiar with either of us, I want to offer an introduction, so you know who we are, where we come from, what we're trying to do, and all that jazz. The quick, easy to digest version is in the picture below, which breaks it down pretty succinctly. You can scroll down to see a more detailed explanation. Sylvie von Duuglas-Ittu This forum is a part of Sylvie's site and blog, 8limbs.us. She's been running the site for 3 years now, starting at the very beginning of her Muay Thai journey since moving to Thailand and sharing its most intricate details along the way. She's from Colorado, US and first discovered Muay Thai while living in New York after her husband, Kevin, urged her to watch Ong Bak with him. From there, she started training with Master K in 2008. She trained with him in his basement and started filming her private sessions with him as a way to study and track her progress as well as to preserve and share Master K's teaching. There, her Youtube channel was born, which now has more than 2,000 videos! The following year, she went to Thailand for the first time to train, with Kevin in tow. After returning, she went on to train at Chok Sabai gym and also with Kaensak while saving and planning to make her way back. The original plan was to be here for a year if possible, but hoping to stay long enough to have fifty fights, but she's still here, has been for three years now, has had more than one hundred fights and is planning to keep going for as long as she possibly can. Her and Kevin sustain their stay here with a combination of income from Kevin's work, personal savings and a Go Fund Me campaign, by which lots of generous supports donated money to help keep her here after following her journey. This allows her to maintain a full-time training schedule. You can see what a day of her training looks like in the video below: Sylvie spent the first part of her Thailand fight journey in Chiang Mai fighting out of Lanna gym, but now lives in Pattaya, training at two gyms, Petchrungruang and O. Meekun, which are both very Thai. O. Meekun is also the home of PhetJee Jaa, who is quite possibly the greatest female fighter on the planet. To say that Sylvie fights regularly would be a massive understatement. She not only takes fights whenever and wherever she can get them, but is constantly seeking opportunities to fight more, with the best competition she can face. She has already gone up against some of the best women in her weight class in the world, often with a big weight disadvantage. Her huge wealth of experience in fighting along with her insight into Thai culture and social dynamics and her desire to build and share as much as she possibly can makes her invaluable, and I'm grateful that she has created this forum as a way to share more of that. Emma Thomas I'm a 26-year-old Brit, who first dove into the world of Muay Thai at the age of 22 while on a solo backpacking trip through Thailand after graduating from university, having absolutely no previous athletic experience or knowledge of combat sports but a huge passion and desire to get into it, which emerged almost out of nowhere. I was hooked from the start, not only on the sport but on the country, and after a month of full-time training in Chiang Mai, immediately changed my plans, cancelling the last leg of my trip so that I could stay in Thailand long-term and commit to Muay Thai. I then took the steps to be able to work in Thailand as a teacher, getting qualified while training in Chiang Mai before being sent to Bangkok for work. There, I found Master Toddy, the man who turned me into a fighter. I stumbled upon his gym never having heard of him before (which shows how out of touch with the Muay Thai world I was at the time) and planning to leave after two weeks, but have now been living and training at his gym for three and a half years (living in Thailand for over four years in total so far) with no plans to leave as of yet. This is my home now. Meeting him was a huge turning point for me, as he instilled the confidence I needed in myself in order to believe that I could fight. Since then, he's continued to be a wonderful teacher to me and a driving force in my life. I had my first fight after eight weeks of training with him and have now had twenty. Halfway between those two places, I set up my blog, Under the Ropes, which was born as a way to create more Muay Thai content for women as well as to share my experiences. I continue to work as an English teacher, which is something that I really love as well as something that provides a visa and a continued source of income. It means that I constantly have to balance my training and fighting with my work schedule, but it's wonderful. Where our paths cross - Similarities and differences I met Sylvie for the first time via her blog in 2011 and later on, as mine started to grow and we both shared our stories, we noticed similarities. as well as the obvious factor of both being women carving our places out in a male-dominated space, we both have rather introverted personalities and are feminists who are passionate about sharing and creating as much as we can for the benefit of other women. Sylvie and I have rather different lifestyles, and for that reason, our collective stories and experiences here can give a broad view of what it's like here. We also have rather different training experiences, as I train in a very Western-friendly gym which is just generally a very different setting to the one she trains in. We have been able to meet up and train together a few times in the last year and intend to keep doing so. Our difference in schedules means that for the most part, we maintain our friendship and collaborations online (and what better way for a pair of introverts?) Here, we hope to make it possible for others to make similar connections as they continue to share and discover. We thank you all for signing up to the forum and look forward to meeting everyone in it.

This is such an interesting topic. Personally I feel that if you have a decent level of conditioning you can get fight ready quite easily. But if you go from nothing it will take so much longer. We have a great fighter in my gym who is not actively fighting atm. But he joins clinching everyday to teach the others (he is one of the guys in Sylvies slomo video of Saranmuenglek clinching). He drinks a beer every evening and is as mentioned not training for fighting. But now he has an upcoming fight and he told me he needs a week to get ready. Most likely due to years and years of hard training giving him the basic conditioning needed. At fight camps in Thailand you usually train 2 2-3 hour sessions a day, 6 days/week. Morning session starting with a run and being a bit softer than afternoon sessions. Mix of bag work and pad rounds. At my gym I only join Saturday morning sessions due to my work and those are very soft. Run and then people working on their own stuff. 3 pad rounds. No clinching. Afternoon sessions start at 4pm with run or skipping depending on weather (30-40 min). Then 30 minutes clinch ending with man in the middle. Then it's either sparring usually 3-5 rounds of 3 min rounds. Or padrounds where you do your own work waiting to be called for 3 rounds of pads with 1-2 minutes in between. I often get three extra rounds of only teeps or elbows because apparently I need this . Once everyone got their pad rounds there is usually some technique drills followed by 200 jumping knees in the ring, pushups, 200 situps (but only a third of us actually doing any situps) and stretching. Done by 7pm. If any of the thai fighters have upcoming fights they will be given a lot of extra work and driven to the point of exhaustion by the trainers. The thing is people can say things like yeah we did skipping rope for 30 minutes and I did 5 rounds on the bag. But in reality they didn't skip for 30 minutes there were several breaks and the bag rounds were not efficient work. They pretend time spent in gyms is time spent training. But they just goofed around half the time not engaging in efficient training. So I feel it's difficult to get a true answer to how much time you need to prep. People are way lazier than they think. Personally (and I'm not very experienced in terms of muay thai but I've competed in other sports and have a decent understanding of how my body works) I want to keep a decent level of conditioning to always being able to train and learn. If I'm exhausted on the pads I will learn less and my movements will be sloppy. I train to train. What I find important is to drive yourself to and beyond point of exhaustion. This because I feel it increases my level of fitness, but it also teaches me that I have much more to give when I feel I'm dying. So it's both for mental training and for body conditioning. I love metcon workouts to do this. Sylvie has tonnes of very helpful articles on this topic on her blog. Perhaps look at articles tagged "overtraining". But also keep in mind that she is constantly fighting and she has done so for years. And I'm also pretty sure she might be a cyborg .

I'm going to Kem's gym on Monday I think. I was really impressed with them when I visited to film with Yodwicha a month or so ago. It's strange but I have gotten several tall person gym clinch questions lately, it's the opposite of my small person needs. It is a very clinch heavy gym, and has some of the best clinch fighters in Thailand. But for those who are taller, Yodwicha is the reason to go. He is an incredible clinch fighter and is very tall for a Thai. Not only that, he is incredibly kind and a very good instructor. I'm small, but we filmed 30 minutes of clinch instruction with him, and he was able to communicate all the technique despite all the angles being wrong. This is very difficult to do, and only the best can do it. Dieselnoi was like this when I trained with him. You can see our size difference here: He isn't an instructor there, he's a top level fighter, but I'm sure he would help technically if you had any questions. From what I saw they clinched a lot, and the padwork was very good. I've also heard that they are a very pro-fight gym for the westerners there finding fights not only around the Khorat area, but also on MAX and other promotions. It's in the middle of mountains, incredibly beautiful. I'll be putting up footage for my supporters and also writing a blog post about the gym for everyone in the next weeks.

Hey S / "Fish" :) See all this support and wisdom? Carry on with its strength and you'll break through that plateau.

You're so clever to have trained yourself in preparation for training! With only one week there's not much conditioning of your feet you can do, but if you can walk around barefoot to build up callouses, that's always helpful. Your feet get jacked at pretty much any gym. And get your miles up with running. The heat is intense and takes a while to get used to, so being used to the miles themselves makes the transition smoother. This sounds kinda lame and hippie-ville, but focus on your breathing during runs and bagwork-type spurts. Training is tiring any way you cut it, but not breathing due to the discomfort of working with new trainers (not knowing what they're asking for and the totally normal "getting to know you" period of working together) can cause you to hold your breath and you will get way more tired than you think you should, given your conditioning. I have to remind myself of this all the time.