Leaderboard

I guess it is natural on the internet to extrapolate from very little information. I just try to restrain from making broad negative judgements from afar. Like in the above, the idea that they aren't taking care of their trainers is kind of absurd, and based on basically nothing. Kru Dam and Bernueng there have been with the gym for ages, and are insanely skilled. It could be that they are having problems with their trainers, but in a fighting gym itinerant trainers are also pretty common, there is always a halo of cycling trainers outside core trainers. It's hard to say which it is. As to the idea that gyms somehow snap into their best behavior when Sylvie shows up this really isn't how it is. Most gyms know very little about Sylvie or what she is, if at all. Her own gym, Petchrungruang where she has been for 4 years, hardly has a real clue about how well-known she is, or whatever her website is - if you can believe that - and don't really care about it. Any "fighting" gym really doesn't think that much about these things. What they do respond to is that she trains like hell, is really knowledgeable, is skilled and speaks Thai, they definitely changes the dynamic, but we also watch how others are treated and what the training is like. I'm not sure where you got the idea that this was some kind of big tourist gym. That's not the feeling I had at all. It's a fighters gym as far as I can tell. Kem is a huge gambler, and loves the game. I can also say that the way the gym treated us when we walked into a festival fight with no corner, and stumbled upon their mat, was nothing short of memorable. They took Sylvie right in and treated her like their fighter at a moment's notice (festival situations can be very political). It said a lot to us how they absorbed her right away into their family of fighters. I'll agree that it is probably a very steep learning curve for a first time in Thailand, but some people like that. Some people are adventurous. Price isn't everything. If you are on a shoestring budget this isn't the place for you. But this is a gorgeous gym in an incredible setting with a very tough training regime. You can't really compare this gym to a Chiang Mai or Hua Hin gym, which are actually tourist gyms, that is, the reason they exist is to serve tourists. This is a fighting gym, or at least it was when we were there. There are gyms that exist in order to serve tourists, and there are gyms that exist to develop Thais, and use tourist dollars to supplement their fighter development, that's the pleasure of the gym. The good ones, like this, then allow the tourists to integrate with the "real" gym. That's the feeling we had when we were there. It's not easy to integrate if you aren't the focus, and gyms go through bad periods, sometimes for a long time, but the chance to get to be close to the "real" business of Muay Thai is kind of irreplaceable. You aren't the boss because you are a customer. When you aren't the boss because you are a customer you can have a hard time finding your spot in the system. The only way in is through work and attitude. It can leave you with mixed feelings. You don't feel valued sometimes, or left out. As a sidenote, and really, this is going off our short visits to the gym, the clinch focus at this gym was some of the best we'd encountered in Thailand. This not a small thing. Nobody knows how to clinch in the west, more or less. When you come to Thailand you want to clinch. So few "tourist" gyms focus on clinch in the Thai way. You need to work against Thais, you need lots of hours in the ring. It's the only way to learn the balance. It's not really imitate-able. Again, the gym might have changed, but this was one of the few gyms we've encountered which was very clinch focused in the real kaimuay sense. Hey, it's up on a mountain. It's been running for a while. Things can get into a rut. I don't know. But I think it a big mistake to impune Kem with some pretty harsh assumptions, that he doesn't give a shit about westerners in his gym, or his trainers. Those are some kind of hardcore things to toss out there, even as "maybes" from very little information. I know you had a lot of time at Master Toddy's, at least from our experience there is no gym we've ever seen like Master Toddy's (though some of the dynamics we've seen). This isn't like Master Toddy's gym. I'm not going to say that this is an easy gym to go to, but it has some elements that are very hard to find in Thailand and that are worth experiencing. This is one of the most interesting questions about coming to Thailand to train. How much do you need to be the focus (in a customer experience way), and how much do you need to submit to a "real" kaimuay dynamic (which means you aren't the focus, and really, that you aren't very important)? There are gyms that take advantage of this differential and just offer shit training, but it doesn't really sound by his description that this is what was happening. Honestly, I thought this was a great review of a mixed experience. It didn't sound like he was miserable, but more like there were things that bothered him a little. Take this: -Repetitive Training: Although the training is hard, it is a little repetitive at times if you ask me. We did the same exercises day-in and day-out with the only difference being the number of rounds for each one. The training is pretty much oriented on the basics and fundamentals as well. They will make sure you can do a proper jab, a proper kick, and so on.. One thing I didn't like too much as well was the fact for the clinching sessions they were just making you clinch and throwing you on the ground, they weren't really breaking down techniques much. Although this approach has its benefits, I believe taking like 5-10 minutes to properly show a technique would have been a good addition as well. This is actually REAL Thai training. You are experiencing exactly how Thais learn. Lots, and lots and lots of repetition with lots and lots of focus on the basics. You do innumerable rounds on the bag or pads. To be honest about it, this is not that far from some "wax on, wax off" Kung Fu shit. Something deeper is being instructed than you realize. And yes, exactly that, in clinch you get dumped on the ground endlessly. This is how Thais build fighters. It takes a really long time, but this is it. Learning clinch for instance, and looking for technique breakdowns (I understand how someone would want this, but it isn't how it is done) would be like trying to learn "surfing breakdowns" and not wanting to fall off the board. For Thais you just get on the board and try to keep on it, again and again. It can be very frustrating, and feel like you are being abused, but once you give into it (stop being the customer) and start relying on yourself to solve the problem, you start to grow in a deep way. You haven't "learned" a trick, externally, you develop it. You watch others, you experiment. You solve. This is how it is done. For a long time Sylvie was clinching with Bank, her own gym's owner's son, who had an incredible lock. He would just very painfully lock her. He wouldn't even knee really. He would just crush her. It didn't feel nice at all. Eventually she just had to solve it. She learned that she couldn't really get out of the lock so she had to learn how to defeat the move before it locked in. It took a long time, maybe months, but she learned. It would have been a very different experience if she was just shown the "counter" and drilled it over and over in a class like situation against a westerner. It's a very different kind of knowledge that she has now. This is how technique is taught in kaimuay situations. High repetition, lots of problem solving. The point is that something that disappointed the reviewer (and I get it, you want to be shown) is actually coming in contact with "real" Muay Thai. And, there is something very valuable in that. The problem is, this kind of process takes a long time. And, it feels a little uncaring. It's a form of immersion. It would be like learning a language by just having people talk at you. You learn nothing at all for a while, but then as you get your feet, you learn much more deeply. By letting westerners into this training approach the gym is actually generous. It's not distorting it's culture of what Muay Thai is to accommodate you. You are able to get in touch with real Muay Thai. Now, whether this is of value to you in a 1 month or 3 month trip is a different story. Sure, you can pop on down to Hua Hin, hang on the beach a little, learn 3 counter moves and 2 trips, practice them all the time, and come home to your home gym and kick people's ass who don't know those moves. Totally. But that isn't really Muay Thai, in the Thai process. People come to Thailand hoping to get the "hack", the short cut to real techniques. It's the home of techniques, but the nature of how Muay Thai is traditionally taught is the opposite. It's slow. That's why you kind of have to decide in a real sense how much you need to be the focus, and how much you want to feel real Muay Thai processes, and find a gym that is on the spectrum in the right place for you. This is one of the most important questions to answer when coming to train in the country.

Fair enough Kevin. I was speaking more to the big name tourist gyms I have heard stories of than this gym particularly, though the review didn't sound like he had a great time or was especially well looked after. That's why I asked if he would go back. He also said the trainers changed out during the short time he was there, that leads me to believe they aren't taking great care of the trainers either or it's not being tightly managed. It's easy to set a repetitive schedule and have trainer's follow itnmindlessly day in and day out. Gym prices have jumped in the last few years, but I find 40,000+ baht to be incredibly high for a month of training and housing when many quality gyms can be found in BKK, Chiang Mai, or Hua Hin for half that price. I haven't been out there so I can't judge, I'm only going off a single persons experience. In all honesty it sounds like a gym I would really enjoy, but also sounds pretty rough for a first time stay in Thailand. Edit: Also, you've gotta remember that if you show up with Sylvie and camera equipment it's quite possible you are going to receive different treatment than random Canadian guy. Not saying that's a factor, just that it's a possibility. Maybe I read this all wrong and he had a great time, but seemed like there were some bumps. As I mentioned though, that might also be due to a cultural misunderstanding between him and the gym or a perceived slight which caused them to treat him differently than other students/gym members.