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I totally feel that destructive, super-passionate relationship thing. The way the very same thing that builds you up and makes you feel AMAZING, also tears you apart and makes you question everything you are. But the good times are sooo good, it makes you think the bad times are worth it. Basically, find something you love and let it destroy you. But not in the abusive relationship way, in the "you cannot possibly remain the same person through this process" kind of way. Destroyed and rebuilt, all the time. All the time. I've never thrown myself into anything the way I've been consumed by Muay Thai. Not only is it my whole life, it's Kevin's whole life, too. Maybe it's not possible to answer "why" you're obsessed by something, because the answer is always the same, that you're just fascinated and enamored and it never dries up. I can't picture myself doing anything else. The frequently asked question of "what are you going to do when you stop fighting?" is fucking heart-breaking. It would be like meeting someone's dog or husband and asking them what they're going to do when the thing they love the most dies. I don't know... feels like the end of the world.

Hmmm kind of difficult to answer but I'll think about it some more and maybe come back with another answer. As to men training with women: I like to train with some of them if I like them but training with other men, especially of around equal or higher skill level (as long as they're not assholes about it) usually feels more "free". Especially as a tall and heavy guy (I'm not exactly well trained but have a certain natural level of strength from my bodytype) it kind of feels like you always have to low-key take care about your training-partner more. Of course you should always take care about your partners, but it's different here. Then for me there is the added problem that most women are quite substantially smaller than me which distorts some stuff for both of us. And yes, having to be more careful is a thing too of course. I've trained with women who were much more on the tough side and when you find out about that and the right level of intensity has clicked into place that's cool. There is still that bit of risk remaining that you have to be careful not to overdo it anyways. Then of course you sometimes get other women who are or act much less tough which brings it's own set of problems. Me being naturally introvert and shy doesn't help either of course but that's also the case (though to a slightly lesser extend I think) with other guys. It's not that I don't like interacting with people and of course training needs partners but I sometimes find it more difficult anyways. Then or course there is this male dominance thing. Comparing yourself to others, not appearing weak, also the thing Sylvie talks about in the text Kevin posted about being more careful about how much you tire yourself out. I'm not one of the guys who have been doing some form of training all their live. I'm actually pretty damn untrained right now and it pisses me off when I see that I'm holding a partner back because I'm gasping for air all the time and also that it keeps me from concentrating more on the technical aspects of what I'm doing. Also it's a showing of weakness that doesn't feel great of course. I remember doing a bit of boxing-sparring with someone at the gym (I've never trained much in boxing so far. We did a bit of it in Kali as our trainer was a firm believer in that you should at least know the basics of what you might be up against though) and it kind of felt embarrassing. Objectively I know I had no business looking great against someone much more experienced but I wasn't really used to the contact and feel of punches against my own body and I couldn't even use my legs which I seem to rely on quite a bit so that made it worse. I got a short video of the session taken and I actually look kinda scared from the outside which is what I was feeling, too. It felt somewhat embarrassing because, as someone else mentioned, as a guy you are kind of expected to know how to fight to at least some degree and somehow you end up believing this to some extend as being a natural thing. Then in a situation like this you kind of get this image shattered to a degree. It's not like the guy was going hard or beat me up or anything. It's just that the ego get's kicked down a little when something like this happens. It's this kind of thought that you HAVE to be strong. You can't appear to be weak because being strong is supposedly the standard for a man.

Nothing really that bad, probably not enough to qualify as 'issues' or 'struggles'. First of all, if you're working hard enough you shouldn't even notice things that probably should piss you off, you're too exhausted to realise or care if you do. Second, even if there is something it's thankfully rare, like a psycho weirdo 1%er joining the gym. Then, at least you get a funny story out of it. And third, for a lot of guys - at training it's a hell of a lot better than anything else you got going on in life, so why complicate it? Hard as the training is, it's definitely better than working bullshit job. It's nowhere near as bad as douchebag co-workers you have to put up with, nowhere near as bad as a moron you share a house with who knocks on your door complaining about loud music when it's only 3pm on a Sunday afternoon. At training there's none of that, so it's better just to be grateful. 99% of people are cool and you're lucky to be doing the most fun sport ever. Maybe the psycho weirdo 1%er is the only thing that really comes to mind. But it really is a 1% thing. In Thailand it's the westerner who wants to be king of the white people - never shuts up, demands attention, long stories filled mostly with lies, comes to the dinner table where 4 of you are already sat chilling, talking & laughing - and immediately talks over everybody and tries to hold court. This dude also tends to suck the Thai dick as hard as he can to try and ingratiate himself. Don't really use terminology like toxic masculinity / fragile masculinity to describe this guy, personally not remotely into any of this political / ideological / gender stuff. He's just a worm.

hmmm, why do I do it.... First off: I'm a beginner, started at 35 (36 now) and right now I don't plan to actually fight. There is this fantasy about fighting in the back of my head though so well, we'll see if it ever gets to that point. I have been fascinated by martial arts since I was a kid really. Wanted to start Karate which was pretty much the only martial art I knew back in the day haha but there was a minimum age for Karate so my parent's put me into Judo. Did that for a year or so but it wasn't for me so... Took me some more years until in my twenties I finally started practicing an art seriously which was Pekiti Tirsia Kali after looking around what was available in my area and finding it interesting. My reasoning for starting was that I absolutely needed more exercise and taking up a martial art seemed to be a good way to connect that with a childhood love. Later I noticed that training and sparring also helped my psychologically as well as physically. I felt better, was more confident, felt more confident to deal with opposition or obstacles. I guess this is when I realized that a big point of training was for me to fight myself more than others, to get out of my comfort zone and prove to myself what I can do. Work interfered a few years later and I stopped doing Kali altogether a while later. another few years went by until I decided I wanted to get back into this kind of thing. I had gotten interested in stuff like MMA a bit and kind of felt I wanted to try a different art that was more in the sports-realm though I still love Kali. Muay Thai had seemed interesting for a long time and still had this traditional element interwoven with the sport-aspect. So I tried it out at 2 different gyms and started. I would like to get back to a level where I can do meaningful sparring again as one of my main points still is to work on myself and dealing with psychological problems I see in myself, learning to deal with direct opposition and difficult obstacles better and be more aware of my strengths as well as bring my body into better shape again. Also it is a great way of "getting out of my head" as LengLeng put it. When dealing with heavy everyday problems it was just super-relaxing to go to training in the evening where our coach had us smashing pads or whatever and I had a totally different set of things to think (or NOT think) about. I am much more of a beginner though as the time since I started in Muay Thai may suggest as I have hardly trained the last few months. Lots of important "real live" stuff getting in the way. I keep talking about wanting to get into it and at least I still get at least some training in but I know I will get back into being more serious with it when I have a few things off my back finally. Also have to say that I have quite a few other passions, too and their relative importance to me slowly fluctuates over the time of months or years. So far at least I haven't found just one thing that I can throw myself fully into without missing something else some day.

I discovered Muay Thai about 4 years ago (I'm 29 now) but only really put myself into it 2 months ago, because I was scared of the risks, of the "Why da hell should I suffer so much if I can be in my sofa?". But now I am addicted to it. For me, every 2 hour Muay Thai training session is a way to rediscover my body, my sensations, feel pain so I can feel good afterwards. It might sound very "spiritual" and bullshitty, but that's what it is. When I practice Muay thai, do Sparring, I feel like I'm ressucitating. I've always been looking for my "passion", after reading "The Monk who sold his Ferrari", and Muay Thai just might be it.

I just got absorbed by it. It's like this destructive super-passionate relationship I keep coming back to even though I keep getting hurt and the guy is a dick but all other sports I ever loved are friendzoned forever. Mainly I love being in the gym. Or having a gym to go to. It gives me a purpose and feeling of improvement even though work might suck or other stuff in life might suck. Muay thai allows me to get out of my head and into my body. I like the feeling of being sweaty. The sounds of someone kicking pads. I love the feeling of pushing through exhaustion. Of always hurting a little bit. The constant presence of pain makes me feel alive. I like the physical closeness in the gym, with other students, with the trainer. To discover movements and skills I practiced suddenly becoming available to me. I learn so much and I discover so many things about me and others that I could never have understood in any other way than physically experience it. I learn patience. I learn how good things and beautiful things are parallel to pain and frustration. I get the physical experience of hard work pays off. I learn about violence and I discover my own violence. And I really like gym when people don't talk much. When bodies do the talking.

There are definitely plusses and minuses to being a product of this kind of environment. It can make you strong, but can also give you a lot of self-esteem issues. The desired effect is that the guy will fight back (which earns you cool points if you do it right), but if you aren't familiar with that kind of situation or come from an abusive background that can quickly spiral into unintended territory. What may have started out as mild shit talking turns more into confrontation and can escalate from hurt feelings to physical altercations. With most groups of guys, you are either in or out and it can really suck if you don't understand that kind of treatment. Not responding appropriately will basically lock you out of the group. There isn't an in-between area really and that can be hard to deal with if you are someone who wants to be included. As someone mentioned above, I think there is a lot of pressure regarding body issues too (not unlike women). We all have different genetics though and sometimes you just have to re-frame that kind of stuff in your mind. I think men often times aren't taught how to communicate at all, we just kind of figure it out as we go. For better or worse. A lot of guys never learn to communicate their feelings, their desires, etc. Women often complain about being taught to communicate or act in certain ways from early ages due to how women "should" be perceived (being "lady-like"). I totally understand that frustration, but I think it at least provides some bearing one way or another. Even if they disagree completely with how society tells them to act or talk, at least there is some kind of structure to observe and makes changes from. Through female social circles they learn to communicate better and with more variety from when they are young and begin to make changes about how they act or want to be perceived. Accepted by everyone you respect, guys and girls. Usually the people with the most experience, most fights, best techniques, etc. While we compare ourselves against other guys most of the time since that is who we are directly working with for the most part, most of us still want to be accepted by everyone. I don't think (at least for me) impressing the girls has anything to do with it. That's just immaturity in my eyes. I think the gym environment can really affect the desire to be respected though. In a laid back fitness gym its not as much of an issue. If you are training in a gym where everyone fights, it becomes much more of an issue because there are immediately expectations (I think everyone male or female probably feels this kind of pressure). Depending on your background though I think there are a lot of guys who have overlapping issues with women in gym settings. For example, I have a friend that started doing Muay Thai and BJJ about two years ago. I really had to push him into it and eventually I realized he was just incredibly nervous about the whole thing. He was nervous about getting hit, nervous about not being accepted, nervous about doing exercises the right way, nervous about embarrassing himself, etc. Lol basically anything you can think of. He's a pretty introverted guy and hadn't really done any kind of exercise most of his life and had certainly never been in a fight. It took him a long time to grow comfortable (hahaha and I pushed him a lot to keep going), but eventually he used that nervous energy for positive things. He did extra workouts at home, extra bag work at home, etc. He got really good in a short amount of time and now isn't afraid to mix it up with anyone in the gym. He is still nervous about competing though. I think most people regardless of sport/performance get nervous about that though. Hahaha that all ended up being a bit of rambling and potentially an incoherent mess. Overall I don't think guys have nearly as many fears, difficulties, drama, emotions, etc. coming into a gym compared to women, but I also think we are conditioned for it a little bit more. For me personally, I've never really felt nervous at a new gym or going into a fight. If anything, that's where I am most comfortable. Inversely, I can go to social settings that my gf is completely comfortable/fine in (dinner with new people, parties where we don't know people, basically places I am completely safe lol, etc.) and I'm a complete mess lol. We've just got strengths in different areas, and I think that's perfectly ok so long as we also keep working on our weaknesses.

Tyler is right, inexpensive accommodation doesn't have cooking options. You can buy a hot-plate and a pan, which is an investment on your own part. Middle-level rooms will have a balcony with a sink where you can kind of turn it into a kitchen with a microwave and electric kettle. It's much, much easier to just buy your food from stalls but obviously the tradeoff is you don't have as much control over your diet at all. Chicken+Rice is a common meal, generally running 40 Baht for a serving. Anything that's served on rice is about 40-100 Baht, soups are about the same at most stalls. If you get a dish plus rice (not the same as "on rice"), the vegetable or meat is a bigger serving and so the price is maybe 60-120 Baht. I go to a place near the gym that's grilled chicken and Somtum (spicy salad). A whole chicken plus the salad is 199 Baht and it takes me two meals to finish the chicken. If you sit down at an indoor restaurant with air-con, food prices are around 120-250 Baht per dish. If you get western food, it's 200+ for almost anything. Cheap rooms can be as low as 2500 Baht per month (for any price I give, water and electricity are not included), but usually they don't have air-con or hot water. 5000/month is the lowest I've seen for having air-con and hot water, but the room will be small and often there's a 6 month contract on those. We did this in Bangkok our first trip out and just paid the penalty for canceling the contract before 6 months, which was the cost of our deposit (1 month's rent). I recommend a motorbike in Pattaya, those are probably 1500 Baht for a month, plus whatever gas cost to fill it, which depends on how much you drive. I drive a lot and it's probably 120 Baht/week in gas. Otherwise you can walk and use the truck-busses or motorbike taxis for longer trips. I'll try to add more to this as I think of things. But ask if I've missed something and I'll try to find out.

I have seen fragile masculinity so, so often over the years. I just realised I didn't know what to call it. I just used to call it weakness. I've seen it in, muay thai. I've seen it lifting weights. I've seen it in everyday life. Blokes piss me off, alot them never want to over extend themselves. The bloke that looks good on pads, but punch him in the face and he sucks. The bloke who benches 90kg but won't whack on another 10kg because he's scared. I could rant ad infinitum about weakness as I perceive it. I don't regard myself as anything special or hyper masculine, but I do know what I am and what I am not. This self belief has made making friends quite hard all my life. I guess I just don't do bullshit. Oh and I forgot to mention the one who thinks he's tough as nails and knows everything about muay thai. In his mind he's Tong Po, but when it comes to the actual fight he'll pull out with a week to go, or if he actually fights he'll usually throw the towel in. PS. I'm a big Tom Hardy fan.

It it extremely difficult to find apartments or hotels that will allow a dog. They do exist, they are usually run by a dog lover, or dogs somehow found their way into the DNA of the the place, but they can be very difficult to find at times. When we traveled, driving all over with Jaidee, we mostly were relegated to staying in cheap "hourly" hotels if you know what I mean. Some sites like AirBnB do allow filtered searches, but generally the idea of having a dog in your living space is not widely acceptable. It's changing some, but it's still is difficult. When we moved to Thailand we had a plan to have our dog sent over in a few months but we really couldn't find any apartment what would accept one, and ended up having to leave her with Sylvie's father. That was Chiang Mai which can be more conservative. But even in Pattaya a dog friendly apartment is pretty rare. On a sidenote, a story that always stuck with me was a fellow that brought his two beautiful dogs with him, so he could have companions while hiking in the North. I can't remember the details, but he went out on a bit of a hike only a few days into his travel and they both were bit by a snake and died. I can't imagine. I only mention it because it's one more parameter in thinking about bringing your pets. We of course had Jaidee with us, a soi puppy we rescued, and traveled everywhere with him. He went to probably 100 fights. He was a huge part of our life. Sylvie went running with him in the mountains, he rode on the motorbike, so yes, it can work. But there are always complications.

Not sure how germane it is to the discussion, but @Sylvie von Duuglas-Ittu's article on what she perceived to be one of the fundamental challenges for men from the west: https://8limbsus.com/blog/fragility-western-masculinity-muay-thai

There's a female only section on this forum which is very helpful for women training muay thai. But for a long time I've been wondering about issues men face in the gym. Where I train there are mainly guys. Young boys up to very experienced fighters. I watch them train and spar and bond. I see escalated aggression. Frustration. Inexperienced boys being pushed around learning to control the temper. I see bromance. I see all this touching (is this a thai or universal thing stroking each other's butts?). I see language confusion. Dominance. I see guys being laughed at for being chubby. I see guys not knowing how to clinch with a girl or whether to go hard when sparring. I see westerners trying to seek approval from thai trainers. I would be very interested to hear about common struggles men face in the gym.

I don't know why, but I thought it would be slightly less expensive down there. Seems to be about the same though as far as food prices. That's generally how I judge cost of living for different areas of Thailand lol. The price of noodles is a pretty consistent one that will tell you about prices of everything else in the surrounding area.

Hahaha I can't tell you how much I fucking love this statement. FIND THE VIOLENCE!!!

Whenever I see things to do with fragile masculinity in regards to training, I often get the impression that it's a cultural thing more than it is a gender thing. As a young man training Muay Thai I had a lot of issues that pushed me into training Muay Thai but it for me never came from training it. Challenges sure, but I never felt as if I couldn't get advice from more experienced guys at the gym, and now I'm in the position of a more experienced guy, training teenagers I do the same. More so than issues to do with muay thai, I find that guys training have issues more related to body confidence, such as not having visible abs, or lacking confidence due to their age (young or feeling that they are too old). That being said I find that people who train more tend to move past these issues.

Hey Chris, sorry it took me so long to get to this thread, we've been driving all over and are finally back in Pattaya. Here, I think, is the thread @Tyler Byers mentioned where general budgetary details were shared by him: Here is his comment where he lays some things out that seem pretty close to Pattaya costs (even though BKK): But yes, definitely fly into Suvarnabhumi Airport (BKK). I don't have experience with the bus as Tyler mentioned, we usually take a taxi which I think runs about 1,500 baht? When flying into a whole new country, new city, etc, it sometimes is worth it to just get to your hotel pronto, to settle down and locate yourself. Then begin the adventure. But, I would guess that the bus is also a perfectly reasonable option as well. I'm a "get me to my bed, first" kind of guy. Royal Thai Residence is kind of a middle of the road hotel. It has surprising amenities, like a pretty nice pool, for a pretty reasonable cost, but it is not the lowest budget option. Though, one of the nice things about it is that Dieselnoi stays there 3 days a week Maybe you can hang out at the pool or the local sauna with him. I'll have Sylvie hop on and maybe suss out how low clean low-budget hotels can go. And I've asked Kero to maybe jump on re: food costs?

Loma isn't really an example of a complete Muay Thai practitioner, in terms of elite Thai male talent. She's the best female clinch fighter in the world probably, and can hot-knife-through-butter opponents who don't know how to face her beautiful throws. But most elite female Thai fighters are usually highly specialized in a singlar dimension of Muay Thai, not representing the "Gracie" level of male Muay Thai I was talking about. That being said, she can do much to alert the world to what real, high level female clinch talent can look like, and what it can do versus other supposedly potent styles of grappling.

We know you know.

Thanks for sharing this is really interesting. To be accepted, meaning be accepted by the other guys right? Or if it's a mixed gym, does it matter what the women think at all? Or you want to seem impressive to the girls to be respected by the guys? Because as a woman, most of the time all you want is for the guys to accept you as well. Much more so than other girls accepting you. Re the support system, I think most of us simply think it's a chosen thing. That you don't need people. But of course we all need people. I guess this is why they say men are usually worse off after a divorce than women, simply because the woman did all the relationship building and maintenance with their common friends and without her the man suddenly finds himself alone.

Interesting post. I'm curious to see what others post. I think the main thing I have seen is the constant competition and pressure to "make the grade" (be good enough to be accepted). Being "tough" is something that is ingrained in a lot of us from a very young age and most of us have no support network. Most women I know have a good support network if they have a bad day or something goes wrong in their life; men are left to struggle through on their own. We don't help each other out or support each other when something goes wrong. Instead the answer is to simply learn to deal with it and do better. That's a lot of pressure, especially if you are having a tough time and already feeling down.

For me it's simply relaxing. It's healthy (from a fitness perspective), and it just makes me happy. In a weird way its like a physical form of painting. I get to express myself through my movement and style. I also love the challenge of trying to perfect different movements and make things fluid.

Amazing guys, thank you for the tip. I will check out FA Group as well, and report my experience back to you all. The ‘vibe’ thing is an interesting situation in Thailand... It seems to me that usually when the ‘head coach’ or gym manager is not around, the trainers can be a little different.... Thank you so much for your input!

Cost of living and training are HIGHLY variable. Thailand is a big country and different camps have different priorities (some are purely commercial, others are a little more traditional). Just living in different cities is going to skew your budget in large directions. I tell people that if you can't afford $1,200-$1,400 USD a month without including your airfare then don't bother to come long term. You can absolutely get by on less money, but life happens so it is better to be prepared. Here's what I would suggest: Figure out your exact time available to be in Thailand (i.e. 3 months/6 months/etc.), then look at the visa information available for South Africa and figure out which visa will work for you or if you will need to modify your trip time to match up with your visa (you might be able to afford a year here but your visa may only allow 3 months). Once you know how long you can legally stay in Thailand, figure out which area you would like to be in or if you would like to hop around. If you are going to be in Chiang Mai, Phuket, or Isaan I would recommend living at the camp just to make things easy for yourself though this will likely be more expensive than finding housing yourself. If you are going to be in Bangkok then either stay at the camp or find housing nearby using renthub, facebook, craigslist, etc. Food costs are going to vary depending if you eat street food, cook at home, or go to restaurants. Restaurants are typically about 3-4 times the price of street food in Bangkok and will likely be higher if you are in a touristy area like Phuket. That may be fine for a short term stay but will add up over time. You may be able to cook at home if you have a kitchen but I wouldn't count on that. Here's my minimum cost guess if you are going to be in BKK (I do not recommend this, but will lay it out as a starting point just for reference): Rent - 5,500 baht per month (you will also need 2 months deposit, 11,000 baht which you will likely never see again) Electricity (no aircon) - 1,300 baht per month + 700 baht to buy a fan Water - 300 baht per month Food (eating only 40 baht noodles, assuming you find a noodle cart nearby) - 120 baht per day x 31 days = 3,720 baht per month Drinking water (from street dispensers which require your own bottles) - 14 baht x 4 bottles for initial cost, then 4 baht a day to refill = 180 baht Transportation - 80 baht roundtrip motorbike ride to top of the street for food x 31 days = 2,480 baht (this is a very low estimate, I would honestly account for 4,000 at a bare minimum) Phone service - 499 baht a month (10gb data) Training cost - 7,000 baht a month Visa extension - 1,900 baht + 600 baht round trip taxi to immigration (assuming you don't need to have passport photos taken) Total estimate - 23,479 baht per month or $765 not including initial "start up" costs for your deposit, buying a fan, etc. Again, this is MINIMUM cost, I cannot stress that enough. I would not consider this a safe budget because things out of your control WILL come up (your gear might break/go missing, you'll get ripped off by a taxi driver, you can't find food for 40 baht, immigration will want some additional paperwork which means an extra trip, etc.) not to mention you'll be bored out of your mind after a month. Keep in mind that training cost is going to be a big part of this as well since most gyms charge 15,000-25,000 for a month of training. I have lived off 28,000 baht a month for about a year and I was getting down to less than 600 baht by the end of the month almost every time. That was living at the gym and never really going out anywhere. I currently live off approximately 40,000 baht a month and its fairly tight though comfortable (costs have gone up in Bangkok and I live in a more affluent area now). I have some additional emergency reserve and budget 5k a month for unexpected costs which I always always run through in some way or another. I could bring that cost down with some better financial tracking or if I lived in a different area, but I would consider this to be near the minimum if you are going to be training daily, taking care of your body properly as an athlete, and don't want to survive off rice and water. I hope this helps