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One of the most stylistically appealing fighters that I have had the pleasure of training with and observing is a young woman about Sylvie's size. When you watch her and then compare her grace and ease to your own efforts, it's like comparing a butterfly to an elephant having a mud bath.

One of the things that makes Muay Thai beautiful, and perhaps especially made for women. Thais are small, and in the conception of the art is the thought that it is made for the defeat of larger people. Which is kind of how it made me laugh when someone like Kenshin does breakdowns of Muay Thai fighters beating absolutel6 huge opponents, but then imagine that there are fundamental physical inequalities that categorically bar them from being able to handle Male opponents. Yeah, 70 pound differences can be overcome...but "bone density"...hmmm

I'm not actually sure what you're asking, so I'm just throwing in observations and maybe they're meaningful for what you're pondering and maybe not. In my personal experience, I've always been either the only woman at the gym, or one of very few women at the gym. The ratio of men to women creates a completely lopsided social arrangement, wherein what role or quality women offer to the gym is heavily obscured by that inequality. In a gym where there are 10-20 men, the competitiveness they have with each other is an entirely different thing than if there were 2 of them, which is the thing women face. I find myself immediately excited by the presence of another women; annoyed and simultaneously happy to almost always be ordered to work with her (annoyed because it's simply our shared gender, happy because we have a shared gender); and disgusted with myself for having an automatic sense of competitiveness. Not competitiveness in the sporting sense, like how men might get to enjoy having a spar to see who's slicker, but competitiveness in the "there are limited social resources here and I now have to protect my hard-earned position" kind of competitiveness. Which is shit. Which is why you get women throwing each other under the bus to be teacher's-pet, or creating cliques when there are only 3 of us, or not being supportive despite there only being fucking 2 of us. And yet, there's a simultaneous support. It's like "frenemy" once someone is there for longer than a few days. It's supportive, the excitement and mutual aid is real, but so is the feeling of a threat. But I've never come across a feeling that men and women at the gym have markedly different motivations. The feelings of power, personal security, potency, achievement, attractiveness that come from fitness and sport activities feel good to both men and women alike. There's a difference in who feels entitled to those feelings early on, but it kind of evens out over time, I think. Like, men feel badass and claim that feeling way before they actually are, and women claim it way after they've already been labeled that way by others - generally speaking. So, why men and women "should" do martial arts is pretty similar down the gender line: because they like it and it feels good. How they handle when it doesn't feel good seems more divided. Men seem to disappear from the gym when it's difficult or their ego is hurt; women tend to just heap pressure on themselves and put themselves in corners - albeit still working - until someone tells them they're worthy of attention again. At least in Thai gyms, in both these examples the correct thing to do is apologize if there was an infraction, otherwise always just carry on as if nothing at all has ever happened, ever.

I am speaking purely from my anecdotal evidence of training and training with men and women. One of my students is a friend of mine, who is a FTM transman who is currently in his first steps of hormone therapy (but he's at the very beginning of his training, so I haven't much to say), I've coached several men and several women. I also say this with the preface that I am not a veteran coach or fighter. Talking athletically there's not much I can say that any other person won't say - but in terms of actually coaching and interacting, here are my observations: I tend to find that women are more comfortable kicking to the body and head straight out of the gate regardless of experience. I think that is because of the popularity of dancing, which is so popular among little girls here - I do not tend to find that flexibility ever leaves you. I've always found men have more speed and power but also more ego. Ego's not a bad thing either, and I should stress that nearly every man I've trained has been a lovely well adjusted person, but I've found men are more likely to argue with what I'm teaching them, and men are more likely to get frustrated with themselves if they make a mistake or are unable to complete exercises. I've never had a woman argue with me about whether or not a technique is right or wrong and while I'm sure women will be frustrated by the training or by me, I've not known them to outwardly show it. I also find that women tend to be shy and it usually takes a while to build up their confidence on the pads as they're getting to know you. Men just start smashing the pads as hard as they can regardless of form. I usually have to tell guys to calm down, and tell girls to hit harder. With beginners I particularly notice that men are more likely to stand quite wide, and swing from far away as though they're imitating a boxer. Women I find often do what I call a 'cat paw' where they hit with their hand coming palm first from their stance. I do not know why this is. Obviously this isn't the be all and end all, everybody is different but these are the observations I've had. The women I've trained, trained for fitness and to learn a martial art and self defence for fun - and when you ask them if they want to fight the answer you get will really vary. Every guy I've ever coached (many of whom are teenager) wants to fight but those that actually DO fight are few. At my gym the fight team coach is a woman (I don't want to name drop her here for privacy reasons, but she is well known for defeating Julie Kitchen + Joanna Jedrzejczyk) - and many of our more notable fighters have been women (Claire Haigh, Geraldine O'Callaghan, Chalih Bassanah etc.) most of whom were there before I joined, and also tough as nails. The main thing between men and women that I think is the same is the actual fight in them - and I don't mean wanting to compete, but when they're training to push through and in competition their grit when it comes to throw down. I've seen men and women give up, and I've seen men and women giving it their absolute all. That's is what is in my view most important!

Sylvie thanks. I know you have so much writing in the subject and this is a very general question. One of the reasons I follow you and your fight career is your hyper-consciousness of yourself as a Western female in the Thai context. You are a voyager not only across cultural lines, but also really across gender lines and i just love how you open up the path for those following you, and credit those before you. So I feel silly asking you the general question but I appreciate your thoughts. Your comparison evokes what I believe - there is a sameness (in motivation), inflected by profound social difference (numbers of fighters and response to ego challenges). Very succinct and confirms what I observe in a broader general sense. Having had kids now, everyone expects me to finally sign on the biological gender differences and fine yeah, there are differences. But I hate biological arguments - they often break down (compare the level of testosterone in any elite female athlete's body with an ordinary woman's levels and you have what, a more male person? I don't accept this silly line of reasoning where a single hormone defines a gender). Attitude and durability (where the women, in your observation, continue working whereas the males often disappear under durress) are all. So I always appreciate, deeply, your conscious voyage. to you for it, all day long.

I wonder how people feel about gendered dress codes in Thai muay thai gyms?.As a resident in Thailand I've been to several gyms, both more fitness inspired and fight camps focused on foreign customer and fight gyms focusing on Thai fighters. In my experience there is definitely a much more tolerant attitude towards women training in tights, sports-bras, hot pants etc in any kind of gym where the foreigner is the main customer. But, as pointed out many times before by Sylvie, fighter gyms focused on the Thai fighter seem to have an unspoken dress code when it comes to women. It's this Thai thing where no one says anything, but you just feel it. My approach has always been to err on the safe side until I figure things out. Especially at my current gym which focuses on its Thai stadium fighters and foreigners are a side-business. ...and there are barely any other women training there. However, the gym gets a lot of temporary visitors and many times Western women who train in sports-bra and/or no undershorts etc. I can feel there is some sort of reaction towards it among the trainers and fighters, but usually the women themselves cannot be bothered (which I sort of envy). The thing is, I think these unspoken dress code rules are stupid and limiting and even though I do not want to lead the sports bra revolt, I am kind of grateful for when visitors come and DGAF. As I hope this will mean that tolerance will grow and at one point this is not at all a thing anymore. I also would feel so shitty telling another woman how to dress based on my perception of what I think is ok. I am interested in hearing other people's experience about these things. Do you care at all? Would you advise visitors how to dress?

Thanks so much for sharing your views. I was not aware of the development in Chiang Mai. I guess it is a positive thing, however, if space is made for women but on the condition it is to also please the male gaze I guess well it is a half victory. Peuh. I fought against a Thai girl who had exactly that kind of top you mention, no sleeves and shows part of the stomach. I find it very pretty J. I do not necessarily need to train without a shirt, especially considering my gym is not the cleanest ever, but the annoying thing is wearing a sweat-soaked shirt so I have to bring several and so on. But it is mainly the feeling of not being free to do what guys can do that annoys me. There is also this thing where different body types are being sexualised to different degrees. A skinny, non-curvy body might not catch much attention whereas the a bit chubbier busty ones will do. I am pretty muscular and although definitely female in West not so much in Thailand and probably the guys won’t care that much. But I am already hyper aware of all the other things that makes me different that it just feels unnecessary to add to it. But I feel that this is definitely a case of self-censoring. So I would therefore never advise a visitor who is only temporary there about how her outfit might be perceived as it would probably only feel like shaming, she would get annoyed, and if she is only at the gym for a brief period of time she would not notice anything either. But at the same time I would hate for thai men in these more conservative gyms to start thinking all western (because it is mainly western) gir;s are easy or skimpy or whatever, when they do not even consider their outfit or why it would be inappropriate. I have noticed that most Japanese, Korean and Chinese women will wear tights but always shorts on top of tights. It took me a while to figure out why, but I guess to make them less revealing…(this is all very anecdotal of course).

Btw well aware this might be a topic for the women's roundtable, but despite several emails I get no access to it. Which also mean I cannot tell whether this has already been discussed or not. I also believe this is a topic men should be able to have access to and learn from as most of the times, men are so blissfully unaware of shit women have to deal with.

Update. I was able to get in contact with relatives in Chon Buri. One of them has a box with the last remaining belongings of Sakchai and they are passing it on to me. For sure there is his fight robe in there. Not sure if his belt is in there, but if it is, I plan on framing it. I'm guessing it's the one in this photo. I wonder if there is any wording on the back. Sakchai on the far left. I really gotta get my butt over there!

I know you are responding to Kevin but I would add that as a student I’m super happy sparring with people bigger & heavier than me; My favorite person is 6’4” about 260. He’s a pro and he schools me but it’s just, for me, delightful seeing the many ways he gets ahead of me. I also trust him, not just because of skill but because I know 99% of the time he has to really cut down in his power to get any work (holding pads for him is like a metal concert, tooth-rattling; I love it).

Right? Honestly, size difference is a real thing but it can be overcome. But it is funny when "they" say its no big deal but then go on to allow other similar limiters as serious problems. Many times I think the reason some of these limiters work is because people dont account for them in training. Ive been to many gyms that during sparring only have people of the same weight class match up. Coming from a traditional background, we never trained within weight classes, we just matched up with whoever, so we got to experience when techniques needed to be altered to account for your opponents size. A lot of techniques work on the surface, all things being equal, but fall short when used against a bigger opponent. Few then explore why. One of the things Ive always loved about the women that trained in the gyms I was at was their willingness and complete acceptance of training with consistently bigger/stronger partners. Funny thing is, it always made them better. Not just in general but specifically when they ended up with someone their own size and strength. It was kind of like weight training in that they adapted to the bigger/stronger and became something stronger themselves. I point out the women specifically because of the topic but also because there was never a complaint about it, it just was the way it was.

Oh that's interesting. I always love being underestimated ("not seen as threat") cause it gets you in the door so many places in life, insulting as it can be. I wonder if the lack of sharing and competitiveness for Western men in Thailand is because of being a threat, or general non-compliant or unknowingly disrespectful behavior. Anyway huge cheers to the advantages of going in slick (poor little female), getting the tricks!

Andy this is gold. So interesting about the wide stance for men, and I know the "cat paw" well lol. Funny that it is universal. I appreciate you getting so concrete about how men and women actually work in a gym. Your gym sounds like a great place and I like what you say about the actual "fight in them". That must be something you can only see under duress, and its beautiful that it has NOTHING to do with gender. Love it.

Apologies this might be slightly off topic. Not a coach, but a woman in a male space, and I reacted to this by Sylvie: and disgusted with myself for having an automatic sense of competitiveness. Not competitiveness in the sporting sense, like how men might get to enjoy having a spar to see who's slicker, but competitiveness in the "there are limited social resources here and I now have to protect my hard-earned position" kind of competitiveness.Which is shit. Which is why you get women throwing each other under the bus to be teacher's-pet, or creating cliques when there are only 3 of us, or not being supportive despite there only being fucking 2 of us. I completely understand where this is coming from, usually spots for women are limited and we all have to compete for that one spot above the glass ceiling. But I also find it unfair. I'm sorry to say, but not all women in a muay thai gyms are cool. There are various types, the hard worker, the one who flirts to get some teaching from the male trainer (no judgement it's an effective strategy), the super hard tough girl who talks to no one and will kick the shit out of your shins (understanding her too) or the "know it all" etc etc. The point is, usually guys have the luxury of having ten other guys as training partners to relate to and train with. Finding their favorite or the asshole they cannot stand. But as a woman you're expected to instantly connect with that other woman who shows up and if she's not cool, you're not being a good "sister". And that sucks. And it's simply the result from having too few other women to train with. And to me that's the most limiting factor being a woman training muay thai. The longing for a female partner to compete with and learn from and then handling the disappointment when she turns out to be not so cool. And that whole pressure of having to get along with a fellow muay ying and to not appear like that woman who likes to be the only woman in a male space.

hahahahahah I accept that there is difference of course. I just don't focus on it, and try and screw them (bio arguments) up every chance I get cause they irritate me Oliver. I believe this. Its too funny. One has to ask, 'what is a girl', in that case, if a girl is rejecting too many "girls". Is it the less serious people? Or just the loss of the higher level of power/technique/aggressiveness? Some of us prefer to be around men cause its less complicated. No generalization is really possible. Thanks for your experience! Sometimes I wish I could, like you, just not think about it. But it's my life's work as a visual artist so I try to stay loose but remain conscious.

Very tough to know. Don't really like thinking too much when going to training or reading books etc. Only time seeing it from the other side is in yoga class, only time enough to do once a week and not because it's fun. Highly unpleasant but find it necessary. Have bad flexibility and bad overall body strength, and never found any kind of weight training helps. This does. People might not like biological arguments but in that room there's no escaping it, the advantage everybody else has in terms of natural hip and leg flexibility.... I mean it's clear as day. If you're a dude, it's basically you and an old guy recovering from an operation, and that's it. First day is like, damn... gonna be humiliating...gonna be treated like we shouldn't be here....look all clunky and rigid. So we just hide in the back and try keep up. The truth? Absolutely nobody cares, or even notices us. Over time, just realised it's better not to think about it. You get treated well, given the easier guy-friendly variations of the asanas by the teacher, and have no complaints, and soon forget you're the only 2 guys there. Unless we're told to feel the universe and breath into our bra straps. Totally different from the Thai gyms back home when starting out. Not only did the overall membership have more girls but half the fight team were girls. And the 2 most experienced girls used to chat about the gym going downhill, saying "Because now the gym has too many girls". For real, that's a quote. O

Jeremy. The dread of paralysis, yet you train. Absolutely inspirational, as is training when you know you are not the same athlete as before. I experience this daily as a person who is no longer young, but was once an absolute grinder, more than anyone around me. Much less difficult (aging is after all a privilege since the alternative is death). But my competitiveness blurgh.. it requires constant simmering down. Thanks for your example.

We have another one coming in about 10 days!

I've noticed a change in what the female fighters in Chiang Mai wear to fight in, now versus when I was living there 5 years ago. Chiang Mai is a more conservative area of Thailand and when I was living there, a lot of the fighters wore T-shirts, so even a tank-top was kind of exposed. Now almost all the women fight in long sports bras, kind of crop-top length with no sleeves. Thai women wear their shorts higher, so only a little torso is exposed, but it's a big change to my eyes. And it's very prevalent. I couldn't say where that change has come from, whether it's influenced by more western women training and fighting up in Chiang Mai or not. Because it's the norm now, there's no gasping on an individual basis (because it's so common), but the way these fighters are photographed and promoted on the Thai-language pages is definitely not lacking the male gaze. I also see the exact same breakdown that you do, in terms of fitness vs fighter gyms. Part of this is, of course, class as well. Middle-class and Hi-So women training Muay Thai are almost always in tights and some kind of put together outfit, but rarely are their shorts too short, lacking undershorts, or just a sports bra. Not at least in what I've seen. My gym is not only a fighter's gym, but it's a family space. Occasionally we get women whose butt cheeks are literally hanging out the bottom of their shorts, or the shorts go see-through when they get wet and you can see their underwear. In general these women are not acting as though they're looking for attention. It's truly just what they're comfortable with from their own cultures. In general, at my gym, these women are working hard and are earnest in their training, and their DGAF attitude is quite literally not even being aware of the attention they are garnering. Further, because my gym only has me as a comparison, they only know that Sylvie dresses like this or that, not what "women" dress like in the space. I've seen it where there are 3 of us, one takes her shirt off to just be in the sports bra and the 3rd woman sees this as permission, or a sign that this is acceptable, and takes hers off as well. For the most part, at my gym, the men are well-behaved and don't make their notice obvious - although they do note it to each other in ongoing discussions that these women aren't aware of because they don't understand Thai. I've changed how I dress over the years. Emma commented on her last visit to my gym that I was wearing a mesh shirt, which I never would have done in the years she's known me prior. On a scale of revealing, this is pretty low. But it's still a step away from complete conservative dress. I'm with you in that I wish I could just throw caution (and reality) to the wind and wear whatever feels good in that moment, either because it's so fucking hot or because it makes me feel confident to wear it. But I still believe that the advantage to carefully not sexualizing my presence in the gym is a huge advantage in every way. And Thai culture sexualizes clothing at a line pretty far from where it becomes shocking to the west. I'm quite sure that the shirt I wear upon entering the gym is appropriate, but once it's wet and clinging to me, it's a whole other thing. So there's a kind of Catch 22 in that you have to wear SOMETHING and you can't give it so much thought that it's constraining you, but you should give it some thought. And, like I said about the 3 women in the gym where one dresses this way and one dresses another, in any given gym, there's a temperature reading you can take to what's normal among the women there at any given time. There is power and safety in numbers.

Another Chatchai be good. But for selfish reasons. Found that hands have always been the weakest and most difficult part.

Thank you. It's important not just for me but for others as well. I, like your friend, face the dread of paralysis in whatever I do. My injury was to my back. Just the feeling of being able to do something is so mentally important, I can't really describe how important. Everyone tends to focus on only the physical part. You get used to pain, you get used to discomfort, but it was my experience that the mental part is the hardest part. It took 18 months to learn how to walk properly again, then comes the frustration of not being able to do the things you used to do, this leads to depressive states of mind. It's hard to relate the emotional cycles. But I guess what I'm trying to say is, With perseverance and one bit of good advice you can still train. I may not be as proficient as I once was, but I have knowledge and wish to impart that knowledge as I am a firm believer, martial crafts are beneficial first of all physically and as a by product mentally.

May your dream come to fruition . I have a friend and coach who has broken his neck (pro rugby) such that if he takes a blow to the head he’s looking at paralysis. He mainly does BJJ now (which actually seems more injury prone AND injury friendly, oddly). I can’t imagine there aren’t risks but you do what you love. Glad you survived your injury.

Love that story. Body body body and good bye!

I genuinely believe it. How else can smaller people beat bigger stronger people? Its the real connector and cross over to traditional martial arts. Sport makes it about all things being even so size is a factor, you cant dismiss it...but you can deal with it. One of my fighters doesnt cut weight so hes always fighting bigger opponents. His last fight he actually cut weight and the dude he fought was still 10lbs over lol. Ended up 15 lbs heavier than my guy fight day. My guy beat him with technique and made dude quit in the third round (knees to the body after two rounds of making sure he kicked him in the body). Size is a factor not a determiner.

Yes that makes sense regarding the sexuality business. And I love what you say about technique over power.

I think the weirdness, as far as adults goes, might come from sexuality and "sexual tension" between men and women. Thats just not something that happens with me but I have witnessed it between students when I pair them up to train. I try hard to make sure people understand that in the art we are equal. I tend to emphasize it due to how I teach the art which is less about power in general and more about technique which transcends physical power. Im not big on my students and fighters relying on power to win and more about being able to beat power with other aspects all people have.

It may be possible. Youssef and his brother used to train at Sylvie's gym, back in the day, I believe. There are connections.

Ive tended to have maybe a little more male students than female in general. The only real difference Ive seen is that as a whole the female students are harder workers, put more attention into their training than men. Personally I love my female students because of this. Recent example is a youth students who just started 2months ago and is already the equal of males in her class that have been training twice as long. Honestly shes a joy to have in my class and because of it definitely geta extra attention from me (as any student like her, male or female, would). Some of my best students and fighters have been female.

Kali (Pekiti Tirsia to be more specific) is the only other martial art I have practiced for a significant time (about 8 years or so). It's a Filipino art that is not very "sportified" and is based on the use of blades and impact weapons (empty hands training is done, too though but its based on the same patterns and concepts as the blades). I found it really interesting how similarities between different arts pop up, especially with the more traditional styles. There is so much that sounded very much familiar to me in the Muay Lertrit sessions. Things that are either very much the same as I learned in Kali or at least follow the same principle. There is this thing about "let them try to strike you but make them pay every time" that we also did a lot. Directly counterattacking instead of blocking is a central concept there. Stuff like parrying a punch with a move that, if done well, is supposed to strike the opponent in the same move as it parries their punch. Or making someone who uses a leg kick on you pay by not only blocking with your own shin but dropping your knee on their ankle while doing so, very similarly to what the general demonstrates in that one session. Also I've watched the session with Gen Hongthonglek a few times and only the last time it suddenly occurred to me that the way he uses fakes, delayed timing and counters is actually very similar to how I used to do sparring with the stick in Kali when I was more experienced. I'd typically move back to keep range (I'm a very tall guy with long arms) and would constantly weave my stick in front of me or throw my opponent off with some weird position kind of like Gen does with his feet before he lands his big kicks. This kinda stuff is really fascinating to me. Sure there are differences between arts but often there are also overlaps or concepts that can be applied to other arts as well. Did you have similar experiences? PS: Of course there are differences, too: For example Kali teaches you to give not getting hit (at all if possible) top priority because an opponent could always carry a weapon even if you don't see it right away so every hit might be very dangerous. Thats something I have to practice to overcome a bit in Muay Thai where the opponent is guaranteed to not have a weapon and getting hit is not actually a mistake in principle.

Bone density matters, and in terms of generating power it matters more than pounds of muscle, keep in mind that bone density disparity between men of different sizes isn't as big as you'd think for. Manny Pacquaio's got wrists the same size as Mike Tyson - it's all Tyson's muscle that makes him huge - not that he's inherently much more massive (he's a few inches taller, but less dense), and when it comes to generating force the size and density of your bones absolutely matters, it's why Pacquaio is still able to KO people 7 divisions higher than his original weight class, if he weren't going against a massive reach disadvantage he'd probably have the power to KO middleweights. I definitely agree though that Muay Thai is a sport where weight disparities don't matter, unless you are a 125er going against a 160lb guy then you're likely to have a hard time regardless. I think that's because Muay Thai, while no doubt a hard hitting sport, is a marathon, rather than a spring, with less emphasis on punches to the head and more on kicking the body. I think that approach to scoring makes it safer to be a smaller man, like Saenchai for example. His timing is so good that being at a kicking range doesn't hugely matter because he can get out of the way, stay on the end of his opponents kicks and fire back when the kick misses, but if you put Saenchai in a K1 match which favours aggression, a fast pace and more blows to the head and legs, and then he's fighting at that size disadvantage that he's usually comfortable with in Muay Thai, he's going to get mowed over. He wouldn't be dominating a Masato in the same way he can a 150lb thai boxer. There is certainly something about the rules and scoring culture of Muay Thai, that allows for those physical inequalities to be nullified somewhat in a way that doesn't exist in boxing, kickboxing or MMA.

Living with the same one gym over there pretty long term, this doesn't seem familiar. Apart from maybe like, 1 douchebag the entire time who was gone in a week, all the other foreign dudes were cool as fuck and hardworking and got friendly. All the politics and bullshit happened back home, and it was the best thing ever to leave all that behind.

This is super NOT off topic. It’s definitely a social condition of gym life. I’ve been lucky to meet a free great, generous & skilled women, and I’ve met two who had it out for any women perceived to take coach attention from them. Sometimes it’s sexual, sometimes it’s Daddy issues (both?). But either way like you & Sylvie pointed out, it’s a side effect of scarcity. I like your Realpolitik attitude (“more power to the sexy girl garnering attention, or the rough girl destroying shins).

Thank you!!

Skarbowsky has told us he'd be glad to film with us when he visits Bangkok, so hopefully that one will happen.

That would be the dream there! Both of them are great and technical. I'd be interested in seeing a few farang legends in there like Skarbowsky being the obvious one, but Youssef in particular is a fighter with such an aggressive, forward moving style - the way he mixes up his boxing with fake teeps, knees and sweeps I think would be great for Sylvie's style in particular. Not that she doesn't already do those things, but I can really see his approach geling well with Sylvie.

Yes the size issue really plays into it. I love getting partnered with people my size although in the end my favorite training partner is 11 inches shorter than me, 30 lbs lighter. She may not like dealing with me but she's the best (Michelle Duff). Thanks again for your thoughts.

Thanks so much I am in :)!

It's a cop out response on the light vs hard thing, but getting both is beneficial. Like a musician's work time in between playing live shows, the practising vs playing issue. They're not the same thing. The Western dudes mentioned above who just want to brutalise each other in the gym for their facebook but not have fights, it's kinda like a music student who only wants to play through songs at home start to finish, or keep going over stuff that's already familiar. Without actually taking apart the song structure and it's harmony, so he knows that it works without knowing why it works. A player worth his salt will do way way more of what the other guy thinks is boring - basically sit there with a metronome for hours, slow the whole thing down, drill, try new stuff, experiment with new phrasing recently learned etc. Sounds like tedious baby steps, but the legit players still do this light sparring way even with 15 years behind them. The musical 'hard sparring' is getting together with other players afterwards for rehearsal and then playing through the songs on the set list before the show. And playing with others, especially live, leads to stronger improvement than anything. But...you kinda need the first way, the practice thing, in order to do the second thing effectively, the playing/rehearsing. If you really wanna be tight and clean. Best training so far, hands down, was light sparring in the morning session with a teenager with the eyes of an old man - and like, no shin guards and no timed rounds, just continuous. Then in the afternoon, the hard sparring with shin guards, 16s, rounds, and we each had a corner etc. Awesomeness. O

Speaking to everyone reading this thread, there is a very good book on Craft, and what is lost in a society when we lose craft: The Craftsman <<< Whether we are talking about craft beer, or craft woodworking, there is something very vital here. Muay Thai is craft fighting.

Thank you, Three Oaks. I don't consider myself to be great, but I do consider myself to be understanding and above all I love teaching people, especially those that don't fit the norm. Queenslanders are generally laid back and pretty accepting unless of course you're a dickhead, then we let rip. My dream (which I'm attempting to make come to fruition), is to have a school where being the norm is not the norm, so that people (especially those that have trained before, but not limited to) have a place to come and find or rediscover their sense of self worth, especially those like myself that have life changing injuries that they may feel excludes them from training at a regular school. I still train at my original muay thai school, that's my choice and I'm willing to put my body on the line because it makes me feel alive. However, not all people have that same mind set. Thank you again for the compliment

Got ya.

Are you suggesting sometimes female students, because they work harder, might get more focused attention from coaches leading to the weirdness I mentioned above ("Daddy look at ME" type of competitiveness)? Perhaps it is not a behavior that you notice, or maybe its as Jojo says and only the fitness types that do this.

So great. My coach tells me a similar thing - its just so rewarding to be listened to, and the female ego seems to be different. That said I think it takes a strong male ego to be coachable at all, so it speaks well of you that you have many male fighters. Thanks James.

Oh! I'm a mad man, how did I read this thread and not say Youssef Boughanem. First ever farang to hold Lumpinee and Rajadamnern titles simultaneously. That'd be my number 1 suggestion!

100 percent this. Ive seen a lot of cross over in the different styles Ive trained in. Just training in greco roman wrestling you see some cross over to Thai clinching. I think the shared origins, the whys of an art starting, makes it so we will definitely have so.e cross over some where. I also think this is where innovation to you style can come from. Bjj is a relatively new art in comparison, but its evolution in the short time its been around is incredible and its all because no one limits themselves in how they create with it. I see a lot of that ability to evolve quickly available for muay Thai, especially clinch fighting. Just in the different ways of fighting muay Thai you see how imaginations evolved.

Yesterday, I sent the following message directly to Sylvie. While the question was originally meant for her, I'd appreciate other people's insights as well. --- actual message --- I have been casually (1 or 2 classes per week) training Muay thai near my home in Belgium for about a year. The classes are great, but there is little to no clinching. The main reason is that the gym's head trainer has very little clinching experience. As I'd really like to get into clinching, I am going to take some privates with another trainer at the gym. Apparently he has some clinching experience, and his knowledge is probably adequate for learning the basics like posture, balance, swimming in, same basic positions and their counters. Having watched most of your content on Patreon, (your videos with Yodkhunpon are especially awesome), there are a few things I want to integrate into my clinching sessions from the beginning. 1. Playing around with the clinch, not just doing drills 2. Building a frame (You explained it quite well in a video where you're teaching it to your friend Kate) 3. learning some extremely dominant positions to work towards. Looking through your Patreon content, the following positions stood out to me: 1. The basic lock you learned from Bank (Seems like a strong basic position to learn, and useful to progress to even better positions) 2. Satanmuanglek's Lock, using shoulder pressure under the chin (Seems like a direct upgrade to Bank's lock, if you can manage to get to it) 3. Tanadet's long clinch (Looks like it's very powerful once you get the hang of it, and can relax in the position the way Tanadet does) 4. Rambaa's arm lock (Seems like a guaranteed win, if you can get into this position) A few other positions I'd like to look into in the long term are: Yodkhunpon's standard clinch position (1 hand controlling the neck/head, the other resting on the opposite bicep/shoulder, ready to elbow) Dieselnoi's favorite head lock: 2 hands on the back of the opponents head, and kneeing until your opponent collapses These last two look great in your video's, but I suspect they're more dependent on the specific style of striking of the fighter to be successful. Do you think the overall approach I describe above is a good way to go about learning clinch? Do you think the dominant positions I described are a good collection to look into, or would you add some more / leave a few out? I'd appreciate any advise you can give me. Thomas

These just came in fresh from the author I'v been communicating with. Last photo- Fight of the year 1952 uncle Sakchai vs Prayut Udomsak. I still need to get these translated.

Wow, you've got a really nice game plan with tons of great reference to work from. Thanks for watching the content so closely! The thing about locks is that you want them to be resting positions, more or less. The frame is to control your opponent, to keep them from locking you, to move them and turn for a knee, but then you move into a lock position to kind of "slow down." Dieselnoi, when he has that horrible double lock and he's wrenching his opponent's heads around, he's resting. Slowing down a bit to catch his own breath while off-balancing his opponent and, through the discomfort and control, keep them from breathing. Yodkhunpon's hold, with the hand on the bicep, that's a waiting game. He's anticipating the knee so that he can elbow or turn. Also a kind of "slowed down" moment. So moving into locks, or between locks, you want to see them as like the stones in a river that you can hop onto for a moment to make a plan. You don't stay there. That's not your end game. It's transitional, although you don't have to move off your spot too fast. So, when you're working on those different locks, shoulders from Satanmuanglek and head from Tanadet's long clinch, work on them by getting into and out of them. Make it a "full range of motion" practice, instead of a drill. To feel the edges, how to move in and through them. I also advise you to take a look at Burklerk and Silapathai, who both love to snuff the clinch because they don't like to be in the clinch. If you're really into learning to clinch, learn how to get out of it, too. Because people will use those tricks against you, but it also allows you to move a lot more than if you only learn the dominant positions. In those two examples, Burklerk is showing how to stop someone from being able to grab you - nearly at all - with the way he locks out the shoulders; this also works great for killing punchers and elbows. And Silapathai's version is slithering out of the way with great turns - Karuhat does this, too - which allows you to change position quickly and get your own lock, if you're actually trying to clinch.

found the posts - his father was also a stadium champ circa 1970s, so maybe his father knew of your uncle or has more info. hopefully you can connect!

The author of the other book mentioned that my uncle had lived or was guided by a person that was his friend named Kim Mang while he stayed in Bangkok. Not sure right now if he was a fighter or a manager. The author Alex Tsui that I've been conversing with said when he goes back to Thailand this year, he's gonna try and find Kim Mang. As you know, anyone today that was alive when sakchai was would have to be in their late 60's-100+. I was told by Ajarn Rex a muay thai official out here that there is a Kru Kim that's old enough out here too in California thats an official for the muay thai events as well that might know my uncle. I just don't know yet what his last name is. I remember him but he's supper old and haven't seen him at the fights lately and might have retired. My Kru, Kru Walter at Sityodtong LA tagged him in one of my posts on facebook and also said he might know of sakchai, but kru kim hasn't responded. My guess is he doesn't go online much. I haven't asked my kru yet how to go about getting kru Kim's attention outside of Facebook. I'm a little shy about this kind of behavior. In the newspaper article I posted it mentions Sakchai's girlfriend's name. Sunee PoomSluay. She would be 87 today I think. She was a little older than Sakchai when they were dating. He would be 85 today. It would be amazing if she is alive today.