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In all of my years associated with the martial arts, there have always been women involved either as instructors or students. Each and everyone of them has/had the respect of the class. I don't know what it's like in other parts of the world, but I've always found martial training, be it Karate or Muay Thai to be a pretty even playing field where you earn your respect regardless of sex. At least that's been my experience. Bare in mind, I come from Queensland and in American terms we were and still are considered rednecks. Of course there has been the occasional knob head, both male and female but they have usually left of their own accord or have been asked to leave. As a teacher, I have one particular female student whom three months ago wasn't very confident in herself. She's a naturally big person. Anyway she could not kick higher than halfway up her own shin height. Now, she's kicking almost to head height, she's 6'1". She feels more confident in herself and the secret to bringing her out of shell was something I learned from Sylvie. Try not try, let things just flow. I do think in general, women are more eager to please and seem more attentive in regards to learning.

I agree with Jeremy - in general women are more eager to please and seem more attentive to learning (this goes for the academic classroom as well). I would say this may be the case across most personalities in women, even with shy individuals who do not express themselves as loudly with their voice. In Taiwan, I was and under-10yo children’s kickboxing and BJJ assistant coach. The girl:boy ratio was always 1:10, or something like that. Of course there are cultural differences, but in general, I still noticed the girls were very quiet and not as vocal as the boys. Yet, it was clear they wanted to learn (for example, they would try to correct their technique when I pointed something out). The main coach always had me work with the girls and the newcomers as the only female assistant coach. So, I got to see how they grew over time too. One girl was always down to spar bc she would willingly and literally walk up to challenge. She “became more aggressive,” or stood her ground when she was in the center of the ring to spar with everyone watching, but still no screaming or crazy sounds, like the boys. Another girl was always more hesitant, but would go up since I constantly yelled, “You can do it!” As time went on, the girls seemed to become more normalized to the procedure of getting over nerves and going on their own. I think the mad cheering helped them because they were receptive and eager to please. The boys were objectively more talkative and “silly.” Even the “leader types” goofed off more than the girls. While they knew when to be serious and work hard, but they seemed to enjoy a flexibility of seriousness-playfulness as a child. I saw less of this behavioral breadth in the girls. This is just my general observation. There were some shy boys too, but the more extroverted personality traits were dominant amongst the males (also given the highly unbalanced gender ratio). At this age, there is not too much “sweetheart of the gym” present. Sometimes fitness-goal-centered gyms have this issue amongst adults. I can feel competition in the air to be “seen” by the male coaches or men in the room. But in serious gyms that train to fight, this dynamic is not as common. Women are usually THRILLED to have other women fighters step into the space and work with them. Occasionally, I would hear from female friends that this dynamic is going even in serious gyms. Even though, I am one to be sensitive to gender dynamics, I was surprised because I was unaware. So despite the gym space itself, perhaps the experience for women will still vary per individual. I can on, but I’ll stop here for now haha.

To spin a varying amount of rotations. I come from a muay thai background where you don't see many spin kicks, and from there have dabbled in Combat Sambo, where you definitely see them, and I've begun training Shaolin for fun, the combat sport variant of which is Sanda. I think you should be proficient with at least a spinning backfist or elbow. Obviously there's no real need to use spinning techniques offensively - although mixing a back spin kick and a wheel kick together are VERY useful - but if your leg is caught and parried the quickest way to get your momentum back is to take that spin and go straight into a back elbow or fist. Artem Levin was particularly proficient at that. When you know you have something like that up your sleeve, it lets you kick with more confidence too. You don't have to go to it every time your kick get's parried, but it's usually not a bad idea to throw it, especially when you know their guard will be down after just parrying your kick. That being said, I don't think reliance on spinning is a good thing unless you have multiple weapons. You'll see Sanda guys (despite kicking being far riskier in Sanda than it is in Muay Thai) routinely incorporating double attacks between spinning back kicks, wheel kicks, backfists etc and it works because that turn becomes a chamber where you can't predict what is coming. It's also why we've seen quite a few good Thai's be KO'd in China. That being said the approach to training in Sanda comes with the forms and Qi Gong that grants you the flexibility and mobility to throw those kicks with ease, that you don't really get in Muay Thai training. You see some Muay Thai purists act as though spinning techniques don't work, and that's categorically wrong, it's more that Muay Thai kicking is so based in power that you see great fighters kick in a way that most other martial arts would view as over commitment, I don't think those heavy swings of kicks necessarily lead themselves to spinning technique. The Thai approach to fighting just doesn't lend itself to spinning techniques in the same way martial arts rooted in Kung Fu (Shaolin, Karate, Taekwondo etc.) do. I think unless you're actively training a form of Kung Fu or Karate alongside your Muay Thai training regularly, I'm not sure spinning kicks are a good idea - because learning the technique of a spin kick in a vacuum doesn't teach you the timing or type of footwork you'll need to make that technique effective. While Sanda has a lot of similarity to Muay Thai, there's a definite "springiness" to it that makes explosion into spinning techniques more unpredictable. TL;DR: if you're going to throw spinning kicks spend a substantial amount of time in a martial art/combat sport that actually makes use of them - because you'll just telegraph them if you try to bust them out with a Muay Thai rhythm.

Thank you so much for this essay. It seems to culminate in an almost fateful way with an event that took place in my life yesterday. I have been doing mental training for the past 5 years, following an experience in my life which required that I undertook that journey. This weekend I was at my wits end, feeling like I kept running into the same wall, not seeing any way out, not seeing any progress and no path towards progress either. Feeling very down, I went to training yesterday. I was dehydrated and hadn’t eaten properly, and the gym was steaming hot, so I decided on just coasting through this one training. Warm up went alright, got to pads where I was working with a young fighter who’s incredibly gifted, but due to age and size difference, wasn’t getting me too hard. First round goes okay, I’m still not feeling great, but I got through relying on routine. I figure the day will be alright at this point. And then I’m called over to do a round with my kru. My kru is an old thai gentleman who grew up fighting at Sangtiennoi Sor Rungroj (as far as I can gather from the other fighters). He’s quite reserved and distant, in his late 40’s, and he’s an incredible teacher. He moves so beautifully. He can be a mean son of a bitch though, and he was in a monday mood yesterday. He was very hard on me, not so much focusing on technique as burning me out; of course, not just in a physical way, but rather in a mental way - the physical exertion just acting as a medium, an instrument to unravel and reveal. This wasn’t just pad work, this was feeling for my heart. So, I gave all I had, physically trying to manifest what I believe I am made of, not backing off and channeling aggression and heart even in the face of such superiority - technical, experiential and physical. When the clock finally gave me pause, I fell to my knees to try and breathe, grateful I’d gotten through it as well as I had, feeling proud, thanking him. I was getting ready to return to my initial young pad holder, when my kru ordered me towards one of the gyms best fighters. This guy is a great pad holder and he is intense as fuck. He’s an incredibly sweet and nice guy, but he’s almost dionysian in his energy when he walks into that gym. To the point where you can barely get through to him while the training lasts. He could tell how battered I was, but quickly made it clear in a nice way that I was not to quit under any circumstance. Not just quit as in leaving the pads, which I wouldn’t do, but quit with the heart while remaining on the pads. Having tapped into the will, which you wrote about, in the previous round, I figured I would try that again, and sure enough I got through it. He embraced me and told me I’d done a great job, which felt amazing coming from him. I was almost puking at this point, so I just got through the rest of the training as best as I could. Only today did it dawn on me that will hadn’t gotten me through that second round wasn’t the will power that got me through the first round, and which has also gotten me through this first year of training. Something else appeared in me – or through me – that I havn’t experienced before. Something like tapping ‘’into forces and streams that lie outside of that frame’’ of the ego, the persona, the I. Make no mistake, I in no way dare to compare myself to Sylvie or the monumental path that she is treading, but I do believe I caught a glimpse of what you are trying to communicate in the essay - only having understood it, connected to it - through reading these words. In some way this new unknown that I will now need to familiarize myself with (in so far as that is even possible?) has carried over to my mental training, seeming to sort of unknit some of these knots that have bound me for a long time. Today has felt different. I have felt different. This event is something that has been underway for a long time – this shore hopefully – and I thank you deeply for writing the essay to give me the words to see myself in, words that show me that I am not alone, words to hope through. Thank you so much to both of you for all that you do. Best, Asger

I've just watched this old fight of Sylvie's yesterday and I find it particularly memorable for many reasons: - This fight like most of her fights happened late in the evening. The whole day prior to it (like for 20+ hours) she was badly sick with food poisoning. She couldn't rest; nor hold water down. She went into this fight in bad shape with pretty much zero energy. - It was her second fight in three days, and she had another fight scheduled the day after this one. So basically, the four days went like this: fight 167 - food poisoning - fight 168 - fight 169. Damn. I hope I'll never come to a point where I'll just be reacting to her achievements like: "Oh 13 fights in one day while suffering from pneumonia? Whatever. It's Sylvie." Because whatever craziness she's up to is never not absolutely awesome. I must nurture my constant state of "being awestruck by Sylvie" forever and ever. - Her commentary for this fight is so damn funny. I think it was after the second round, during the break, that she said: "I haven't pooped myself. So far, so good." Yeah, she had me there. I laughed a lot. Kevin sometimes filming everything but the two fighters is also funny. Maybe he's like me, and gets distracted by ghost cats. - Despite being sick and unusually tired, she held her own against Thanonchanok - a world champion way bigger than herself and very strong. Sylvie beat her once in the past; this was a rematch. (Actually, as of today they have fought 9 times with Sylvie winning twice.) She said in the commentary something along the lines of being sorry this rematch wasn't going to be much of a challenge for Thanonchanok. Got to love Sylvie's concern for her opponent's quality time. It was still a close and pretty exciting fight. Sylvie was in a state of "I don't give a fuck about anything anymore" which I suppose was most definitely an asset. It's the kind of attitude she aims for in her fights. She doesn't credit herself for it here because it was not a conscious choice on her part. If it's a result of being ill, then it's just luck. Yeah but it wasn't luck that she chose to be in that ring that night. She could've stayed home to heal. "Fucking impressive" doesn't even come close to describing her strength. This was her Post-Fight vlog: She also wrote a blog post about the fight, check it out for even more insights: https://8limbsus.com/muay-thai-thailand/fight-168-sylvie-petchrungruang-vs-thanonchanok-kaewsamrit

I’d be curious to hear from the coaches in particular how they see differences in male & female athletes, and also what are the main similarities. I ask this here rather than Sherdog or Reddit cause I’m not begging for an earful of sexism, more an open field of experience & opinion from both men & women & also non-binary people if you’re here.

This is an offshoot of a previous thread I started, on the "light" versus "hard" sparring and how that kind of divides down the emotional line, rather than the physical power of strikes. I wanted to ask my trainer, Kru Nu, about this. He's been teaching Muay Thai for 25 years or so, grew up in a gym that had the very, very early westerners who lived and trained in Thailand, has raised countless Thai boys to be stadium fighters and champions; and has had his fair share of "what the f*** was that?" experiences of people losing their cool in sparring and things erupting into potentially dangerous situations. My impetus for asking Kru Nu about this subject was two fold: 1) the "Thai sparring is so light," refrain I hear from westerners is often one that I've failed to witness with my own 7 years' experience living in Thailand. Thais don't spar super light, at least not the way that I see it performed by the westerners who are trying to mimic what they deem to be "Thai style sparring." And 2) I've seen some pretty intense sparring under Kru Nu's supervision, where he doesn't tell people to turn it down, whereas I - and probably most coaches in the West, would have done. With very little kids, like 7 and 8 years old, when they're clinching they aren't allowed to throw knees. Kru Nu tells them explicitly, "if anyone throws a knee, it's a foul." That's so they don't hurt each other, because they don't have control of themselves yet. They're tiny, so the impact is relative to their size, but I think it's more of an emotional precaution - they don't have control of their emotions yet and so they'll knee hard and hurt each other. They're emotionally not in control, so if they get mad they don't have a stick in their hand at the same time, so to speak. Most of the time, sparring or clinching with little kids like this ends because someone's crying. They're learning how to control their emotions way more than they're learning how to do proper technique, although they do get a few pointers here and there. Mostly it's just spending time in the water, as I like to say, and learning not to cry about it being too cold or deep or whatever else. Back to adults. The teenaged Thais in my gym have mostly been training for a lot of years, so they've gone through the emotional bootcamp long before they ever get big enough to really do any damage to anybody. We have one young fighter, Maek, who is often my clinching partner, and he's new enough and young enough that he gets a little emotional sometimes. He's ignored most of the time when he gets like this, or he's teased to put him in check. But he's pretty big, 60 kilos at only 13 years old, but a little butterball so he goes with partners who he outweighs but is shorter than. So, with his weight he can do some damage, but with his size and age he's kind of not so dangerous. In contrast to this, the westerners who come to train in Thailand are mostly pretty big, compared to me and Thais. They can do damage before they have any kind of skill, or moderate skill, and they've done usually no kind of emotional formation by a culture that esteems "jai yen yen," cool heartedness. So, you've got giant babies. Yesterday, my regular sparring partner and I were told to go spar but to go "bao bao," which is Thai for gentle. I've never been instructed to go light before. The reason was that both Carabao (my sparring/clinching partner) and I have fights in a couple of days, so a clashed knee or bruised eye or ego is not on the ticket. I fight often, Carabao doesn't. So, the instruction to go light is more to do with his fight than mine, but interestingly, Kru Nu has credited Carabao's wins in the past with being my clinching partner. In clinching, nobody is ever told to "go light." Just maybe to be more careful with hitting with the inside of your thigh instead of with your kneecap. So, this sudden "go spar, but bao bao," thing got me thinking. I wanted to ask Kru Nu about how he does sparring at his gym. I told Kru Nu that westerners seem to think that sparring in Thailand is all really light. He frowned at me when I said this, like "why?" I laughed. I don't know. But then I used the example of this Indian guy, who I referenced in my other thread. He goes too hard (in my eyes) with everybody. He's not out of control, but his power is enough to do damage. In the example I gave in my last thread, he sparred with an Italian who also goes quite hard. Hard vs hard, and Kru Nu said, "they like that, so I give for them." But I reminded him of a match up that was not a syncing of likes, where one guy didn't like to go hard. A few weeks ago he was sparring with a fellow from Spain. The guy from India is cracking these leg kicks and has good boxing, so he's touching up the guy from Spain and then just bashing his leg. The guy from Spain is not super experienced, but not totally green. He does okay for a round, listens sincerely to my advice to teep with the leg that's getting kicked when I talk to him between rounds, but ultimately lays down and sparring is ended with a "TKO" late into round 2. I thought that was shitty, honestly. I asked Kru Nu (yesterday, not when this happened), why he let the sparring go like that. "Because I want the guy from Spain to understand that in a fight, if someone kicks you hard here (he chops the side of his hand into his leg), you cannot ask them to stop. And you cannot stop. He has to understand." And, as I recall, the next sparring session, Kru Nu put the guy from India with Team (Thai, stadium fighter) and he got worked, which Kru Nu had said was, "so he can understand." Keeping everyone in check. I nodded my head in understanding when I was listening to Kru Nu. It's what I was saying about hard sparring, how it teaches you that you have to figure shit out under duress. You have to know what contact feels like and how to hide your fear, your shame, your pain, but you also have to be able to not get upset yourself. If you're going to hit hard, you have to know you'll be hit hard back. Kru Nu actually pointed at me, poking my shoulder as I sat next to him on the ring for this conversation. "Sometimes Carabao kicks you too hard, I know, I see," he said. Honestly, guys, I know Kru Nu sees everything but I totally assumed he was not clocking the times that Carabao is hitting me hard. "But you don't get angry, I know you are okay. And if you want, you can show him that you kick hard too and then he understand." I know there are times I've lost my cool in sparring and clinching when I feel like I'm being hit too hard. I've been punished for that by Kru Nu before, basically by him telling me to get out of the ring and go kick the bag and he ignores me for the rest of the session. But I've also learned how to control that shit myself. With Carabao it's a bit harder, just because of his size and the relationship we have in the gym, but with Maek I've learned how to take a too-hard strike, hit him back hard as a warning shot, and then use the next shot as an immediate comparison (much lighter), to let him choose which kind of strike he wants. You hit me hard, I hit you hard, but we can always go back to this. And know what? He always tones it back down. No words spoken. No looks. No complaints. No calling "dad" over, and the escalation in emotion is super short. But I wouldn't know how to do that if I'd never been hit too hard in sparring; if I'd never been overwhelmed and wanted to cry. When Kru Nu lets these big Western dudes bash on each other, he's giving them the same lessons that led me to where I am now, but on a much shorter timeline. These two go hard, they go hard together. This guy goes hard with someone who doesn't reciprocate and he doesn't read the temperature, make him go with someone who will touch him right back (Team) and then some to keep him in check. It reminds me of the Cesar Milan approach to reconditioning aggressive dogs: put them in with the pack and a natural order will shake out, pretty quickly. I remember taking our dog Zoa to a dog park in New York and she was growling and nipping at some dogs who came to sniff her. I immediately thought to go control her and Kevin told me to wait, let it sort itself out. Sure enough, within 3 minutes the group had figured itself out and Zoa was playing chase with a dog she'd just been ready to fight with. You can't control everything. And if everything is always controlled for you, you never learn to control yourself.

Ive tended to have maybe a little more male students than female in general. The only real difference Ive seen is that as a whole the female students are harder workers, put more attention into their training than men. Personally I love my female students because of this. Recent example is a youth students who just started 2months ago and is already the equal of males in her class that have been training twice as long. Honestly shes a joy to have in my class and because of it definitely geta extra attention from me (as any student like her, male or female, would). Some of my best students and fighters have been female.

First, this is exactly what I am interested in - nice to know how it works beyond my little East Coast America frame. So the Taiwan point of view is interesting and makes sense. I love imagining you yelling "you can do it" OMG. The best. Incredible and well put. Thanks that is a very helpful distinction in sorting out my own two minor but annoying experiences. Both women were more fitness oriented people even though damn, they are adults (one is at my karate gym, the other was at Western boxing). Nobody does this at my Muay Thai gym. NOBODY. You are so right - no real fighters ever look the gift horse of being able to punch me in the mouth, in the mouth! Thanks again!

There is a tale that as Dionysus walked from India to the West his adornments gradually fell from his body, until he stood as Apollo, in Greece. That...is super cool and more or less amazing. It's a beautifully written response, and observation too. Very happy to have read it. It sounds like you are on an amazing journey, well worth everything you have bet on it.

Would love it if Kaitlin will hop on and will be watching her fight! My thoughts & intuitions are kind of a constant stream, actually. I know its a general question but I am doing a show in NYC that includes a ladies MT fight night and this will result in people asking me why I think women ought to do martial arts in general, Muay Thai in particular. These will be people hostile to the idea of violence generally. For myself, I usually adore the women in my gyms, because there is less coquetry and more directness. Twice though, I've had another woman try and throw me under the bus to be the "favorite student" with the male coach - that's fun lol. So I am just searching for thoughts and impressions. I actually hate generalizations and think the cloud of socialization is so powerful (habitus) in developing gender roles that its difficult to find what is real and what is just driven by social needs, but all, in the end are real so I am just trying to trace patterns. Thanks.

Basics, basics and more basics. I'm really anal about balance. I don't mind spinning elbows and I'm really partial to the spinning back kick to the liver. You can take the boy out of karate but you can't take the karate out of the boy. Ahaha. Back to balance, before you can do anything, you have to be able to move and maintain balance. Some people have a great deal of trouble understanding this.

somehow I recalled my first ever sparring session in Muay Thai, well actually K1, reading this. I had experience with full contact sparring from Kali several years back but it was my first time doing any sort of actual kickboxing sparring with gloves, mouthguard, shinpads and all. I had asked if someone was up for some light sparring with a beginner. and found a guy who was like "sure! lets spar with open hands! don't want a headache tomorrow either" so I climbed into the ring expecting LIGHT and just feeling this out for a first time. Granted, the hands weren't a great problem even though I sucked at boxing technique but he totally surprised me by starting to throw hard lowkicks over and over. At least I had learned defence against stuff like that in Kali so I was like "oh, ok, so thats whats going on here? unexpected, well ok then but I'm not just gonna stand and get smashed". I started defending with me own legs as good as my somewhat rusty technique would allow which actually worked better than I would have expected. Then I misjudged his attack and raised the "wrong" leg for a block but had enough time to realise my mistake and pull the leg to the other side for a cross-block that hit right in the perfect spot. It was a hard kick but it didn't hurt me at all since it connected flush with the largest portion of bone just below my knee but we actually had to stop sparring after that because HE had hurt his shin in the process. Don't know if he took that as any kind of lesson and it certainly wasn't my intention to teach anyone anything as the newbie but I think it can serve as an example for lack of control in sparring. How would you say should people who start at adult age best get into sparring? Start out light to improve and test out techniques without too much fear of getting smashed for mistakes? Hard(er) to get used to the feel and stress? Some kind of mix approach?

Maybe Kaitlin will hop on, I think she is fighting today or tomorrow, but is a coach and has thought a lot about this I believe. What are your thoughts or intuitions?

This made me tear up, no exaggeration. Thank you so much for sharing your journey.

This is so neat - to use chicken fighting and Kru Nu’s Gym as case examples. Art seems to draw in community, maybe even form community, because this is the nature of beauty. We want to discover it for ourselves, but we also want to gather others around to celebrate, study, learn from, and test Beauty together. There is a larger, communal validation of the Beauty. Also, we want to absorb as much of it as possible. Specifically in regards to Muay Thai, I perceive nak muays want to “inscribe” the Art into our bodies. For it to become a partner of our bodies’ natural flow is a beautiful thing indeed. (On a relevant side note, I think fight photographers want to savor and capture the beauty in a different form. Not on their own bodies, but within different cascades and shadows of light. They can then share something closer to their exact personal perceptions to the onlooker via the camera’s malleable eye and the dramatics of light/color/effect). On the topic of patrons, there seems to be layered motives to wanting to support. Some patrons want to tap into this beauty and grow from it and ultimately support it by tangible means. Other patrons want to invest in it because Beauty is also a source of raw power. (These motives are not mutually exclusive, but just two types of motives I am currently thinking of). I think the rarer ”Beauties,” like Petchruongrang Gym, are the ones chasing after the art, not the money. They could chase the latter if they really wanted to, with probably just a few tweaks, but they are so consumed by the art itself that may not be their primary concern. In a sense, they have reigned in the true power of Beauty because it is untainted. This is a pretty romantic view of power, money, and art, but I think I ascribe to it.

I think Wilde was not a Muay Thai fighter, and lived in an altogether different universe. There are, in this other universe, a trinity of transcendentals (as they are sometimes called), Truth, Beauty and Goodness. Three dimensions of the same thing. All three strike me as quite useful. One of the things that I find extraordinary about Muay Thai is how a truly beautiful move is incredibly beautiful BECAUSE of its efficaciousness. The right move, at the right time, is defined by its utility, without falling into utility. It also has the transcendental quality of mathematics, which has all 3 qualities, a mathematics of the body. At its highest, Muay Thai seems to possess all 3 through its utility. It has an almost Spinozist quality to me.

Thank you for sharing so much, Kevin! This speaks to the functionality versus symbolism of art. Is it just meant to express the artist or hide/free the artist? I am reminded of the preface in the classic novel, “The Portrait of Dorian Gray.” It’s a page and a half but my highlight is the last line after all is said and done about the greatness of art itself. [Admin edit: these photo files were lost in the takedown of the site]

Oi. In the still you can really see the massive size difference. She's so hard to beat because she's super skilled and expert at controlling tempo. If you give her size too (which distorts all scores), its an uphill run. That being said I have such a memory of this fight. Sylvie was really, really whacked. We went to our all-time most dependable restaurant in Chiang Mai and she had a dish she always has, and just got clubbed by the food poisoning, nothing you could do. But yes, there was no way she wasn't going to fight. We've treated every fight as precious, that's our motto. Sometimes the fights you really might think to pull out of are the most precious. This one gave Sylvie a lot.

Jeremy thank you. I am interested to read that the schools are generally egalitarian in Queensland. I am back East in the US, and grew up out West (which is probably culturally more like Queensland). I love the story of your big woman. OMG. I am very tall too and its strange being a bigger woman - you are constantly challenged on your gender (as many muscley women of all sizes are; I reckon Sylvie has written about this). Three months and a huge difference! You must be a great coach.

In my opinion light sparring in the physical sense is hard for a beginner as they don't have the technique down enough to go light. I actually start my students off with reciprocal drilling, starting with 5 for 5 and soft, once they get the gist of the combination they go 1 for 1 and soft, under my watchful eye. Once I feel they exhibit enough control in drilling, they then spar. This may take 1 week or 6 months, depending on how I feel the student can control themselves physically. At my school, sparring is done with solid contact, with the idea of enjoying it, (I don't run a fight gym). Where I go for training, beginners are always started off sparring (if they want to spar) with the more experienced students and instructors. This is so there is no ego involved, the student knows he/she is with someone who is there to teach and help and not bash.

Man Kevin, I always need so much time to read and just absorb what you write. Its not even the quantity of words but the quality thats so rich and needs digestion time. I love the analogy of the box being fighting. Even more I love this: "You think you understand what fighting is after 50 fights. After 100 you realize that you didn't really understand at 50, but now you know. Then at 150 you suddenly see things differently. Now at 240...well, you see where I am going. What is infinitely cool is that the vision you have at any one particular point, let's say that particular ledge on the mountain where you stand, overlooking a drop off and valley, that was earned by you, and you simply could not have had that view 300 meters down, or at basecamp." I see this as a good description of life and perception through the years (ie: your 20's, 30's, 40's and so on). Great write up as always man.

Yes, the way he's always watching. Kevin took those. Kru Nu is very handsome but hard to photograph, haha. This is what he looks like when I take his photo:

It's very interesting for you to expand the subject to the level of arts in general. I did not expect that! In combat arts there is an added dimension, which is that fighting itself - and by that I mean "real" fighting as a capacity - tends to favor those who are raised in rough lives. Having to scrap, or be physically competent is something you learn at a young age, generally, and these qualities and their relationship to violence, really seem to help performance in combat sports. The rich or affluent are widely seen as "soft", which is why many of them may be drawn to fighting arts/sports, as a way to prove or improve themselves. In Thailand we are seeing a huge trend of this from the Chinese middle class males who are now coming to toughen/prove their manhood, now that their country is in full economic bloom. This is repeating much of what has happened from the last in previous decades. You saw it in the huge success of the book A Fighter's Heart, by Sam Sheridan, which was basically a rich Uni boy traveling around looking for tough adventure. So in fighting there is a kind of contrast, it seems. Over generalizing, you have the "real fighters" who come from rougher backgrounds, and then the meeting them on the other side, you have the affluent who are drawn to the arts because of their affluence. I'm not sure it's the same in the arts, maybe you would disagree. Yes, we have the image of the starving artist, there isn't the same feeling that he is a better artist because he's disadvantaged. One might imagine that an affluent person might make a very good painter, or writer. But, I'm not entirely sure of the argument there. What is "real" art? In the story of martial sports and arts there is a very interesting example in Karate, as it was disseminated to Japan in the 1920s and 1930s in a very abstract way, to the affluent, and that even sparring was removed from the equation. Funakoshi, was the man most responsible for bringing Karate to Japan from Okinawa, someone who prided himself on never injuring a single person:

Got ya.

No Im not suggesting that at all. Im saying what I said, what I notice in my experience. If I were to think of it, I didnt ever notice anything like that. If anything it could just be a hyper competitiveness to be better than or equal to the men. I just know in general they worked harder. I say in general because I had male students just as dedicated but I also had male students that were lackadaisical in there training, where as almost none of the female students were like this.

So great. My coach tells me a similar thing - its just so rewarding to be listened to, and the female ego seems to be different. That said I think it takes a strong male ego to be coachable at all, so it speaks well of you that you have many male fighters. Thanks James.

Thank you so much Kevin. The praise of my writing is such a massive compliment coming from you, and the encouragement is much cherished as well. I am on an amazing journey, hard as it may be. Kero Tide thank you so much. That is incredibly touching to hear. Having given it some more thought today, it was almost as if this strength, energy or power I was demanding of myself to channel did not need demanding to manifest; it was something in me that I have discovered I can access - circumventing my ego. In so far as the ego functions as a way of asserting control, and which I have relied on for so long, you cannot imagine the joy of experiencing this force within me that did not need forcing, but seemed to be an expression of the very stuff I am made of. Like pulling off a mask that expresses what I value the most to discover the same face underneath. What an amazing sport, art, ethic - life - muay thai is.

Oh! I'm a mad man, how did I read this thread and not say Youssef Boughanem. First ever farang to hold Lumpinee and Rajadamnern titles simultaneously. That'd be my number 1 suggestion!

Absolutely. Wilde was not a Muay Thai fighter, and this was his only novel based off of a Faust legend. If he had seen a Muay Thai fighter fighting within the trinity of transcendentals, he might have written about that experience/story instead haha The arts is such a large umbrella term and often (too?) all-encompassing. I’m realizing now that different kinds of art philosophies don’t always occupy the same “shared venn diagram space” as each other, though they all lead to a form of art.

And thats also a big issue. I can understand coaches "de-evolving" there style to fit customer demand. From a business perspective this makes some sense. But I also see it as treating the whole gym in a dishonest way. The thing I tell all who train with me is simply whether you want to fight or not (and I really dont care either way, no pressure) you will learn how to fight. Again, not against spinning or fancy techniques, just against them being the focus over the basics that will win fights. The term basic even has a deceptive ring to it. You need a lot of time on those to really understand the nuances of why they work. Skipping them, or placing their importance as less, makes it really hard to actually progress, even to the point where the fancy techniques you want to learn become less for it. Hope that makes sense. In the frand scheme of it, its a minor annoyance and more a slightly frustrated joke. Ive never actually turned away a student because of this. I just always looked at it as an opportunity to educate them. Usually that works well.

Thing is, you can kinda feel sorry for that every new guy with the red hat. Sounds like you guys had good training starting out so were decently schooled, but in loads of countries it's a bit shocking. In the beginning, this one gym (stayed there about 5 minutes, for this reason) had a trainer only wanting us us to do his bizarre convoluted long ass 13, 14 hit combinations. No joke, one would involve superman punch, then flying knee, then spinning back something, then another jumping teep, then his own ninja matrix move he invented... I mean it was cringe. Didn't know where to look. Growing up, there were guys running gyms this way to keep paying members coming back because it felt fancy and exciting. He knew his... well, basically cult members, loved to know they were learning the same thing they saw in a highlight reel the previous day on their instagram.

I love this part too: "You can win lots of fights without dealing much with your personal framework. This is why winning doesn't really matter to the value of fighting, and often works as a disservice. The point of fighting is to keep putting your hand in the Box, until you learn. You may never learn. It may feel like it's just a goddamn pain box. The lesson cannot be forced. But, if you keep putting your hand in there, and give it time, you will can something incredible." It really resonates.

This is a beautiful and amazing feat of acrobatic skill but I can definitely see why you wouldn't want Muay Thai heading in that direction.

So wait wait... then the whole thing about TKD's jumping spinny spinny stuff being from infantrymen who knocked the cavalry guys off their horses..... was that an urban myth all along?

Great essay, and perfect timing for me (I actually meditated to the Litany against fear last night). I particularly like how you approach use of Will, you do have to force yourself thru Will to fight initially (or even just to spar). Early on though, I found that if it was just will that I was struggling against myself so much that I didn't have much for my opponent or the greater opponent (e.g. fear, anger, desire). I also think you undersell your "right" to talk about this, this is all our struggle (every single one of us) because we all walk around looking at the existential inevitability of the end. I fight for a lot of reasons, but most importantly to live a better fuller life because we always have our hand in that box (even if we aren't always aware of it).

Yes I have seen you posting about it and bought it. Expensive! But nerdtastic. Thank you for putting up screenshots.

I think the only interesting thing about (supposed) Okinawan Karate is that it is likely closest to the root of actual combat or realism. On the other hand what we have from that lineage maybe is rarified now. If you don't appreciate Shotokan though, Shotokan is kind of the bottleneck through which almost everything else got passed through, if I got that right. You may find the Taekwando book I recently read interesting. I'm a sucker for these kinds of historical tracings. It goes way too into the history of particular strikes, but the general history about the TKD evolution from Karate (about half the book) is crazy good.

Off Topic. Sylvie, Are those your photos of Kru Nu? They are beautiful.

I love that idea of a compressed files and I don't disagree that much of karate has taken a turn towards the unreal. Part of it is I don't really like the word "karate". Seems important to be precise. I also don't think being original (Okinawan) necessarily makes things right. I am not always looking for the oldest thing although that is also of interest, just not definitive. I tell you what Kevin, I was in tears when it became clear that for family reasons I was going to have to add in Korean Tang soo do (a precursor to Tae Kwon do, heavier roundhouses, many other differences but still a 20th century hybrid like so many). I just absolutely hated it but I have to do it (my mentally ill daughter is trying to get back to her practice and she needs to see a beginner, me, for courage). I am learning some brutal things (so many approaches to yanking off the testicles lol), and because my teacher knows I prefer Muay Thai, he is at pains to explain the real purpose in different movements. The single blow thing, for example, is obviously ridiculous so Tang soo do also teaches nasty little hand and wrist locks as a sort of backup in case your opening salvo fails on the street. But this is not a defense of karate. Go ahead. Chop at it. I love that video! Two smart guys making solid arguments for the necessity of "kata" or forms. Makes sense. I didn't know Okinawan was so grappling based. Style I hate is Shotokan. So still, so low. Seems just fucking pretentious. That is probably similar to peoples' reactions to flying shit. I have shot thousands of frames of different styles of karate at tournaments so I'm somewhat aware of the variety. But my heart and soul are with Muay Thai, as much as they can be from this country.

Totally so. I do have a problem with mystification of fighting styles. I mean, I was a huge Kung Fu cinema fan, and so absolute love that kind of mystification, in film, but it's difficult when it comes into the real world. Karate is a difficult subject. Much of what is "Karate" is quite far from it's origins in Okinawa (reportedly then, it had very few kicks, now its stereotypically identified with kicks). Even when it came to Japan in 1922 it took a hard turn away from its roots and continued on a fairly strong path towards un-realism. They tried to correct that with full-contact, but it really seems like it never found its realism root, for a hundred reasons. But, I like to think of Karate as kind of compressed file, that likely contains a ton of wisdom and knowledge from eras that are not our own. And that is super cool to me. If you can unzip the file there is probably a Goldmine in there, and I'm sure many have claimed, or have worked to do so, translating it into fight contexts, but wholesale Karate feels a little fantasy based. In thinking about unzipping files, I really like for instance what these young dudes are doing:

Both I guess :). Everybody does it. Substantive analysis like you do is valid. But shit talk generally, knee jerk stuff is something I try to be careful with, just for myself. I try to maintain 100% curiosity all the time, though critique is part of that. Doesn’t apply to anyone else so I’m gonna drop it.

It's wonderful to have you contributing here! A forum is really shaped by who participates in it, so your enjoyment of it is very much to do with your own part of it as well. So thank you!

To me, this is a great example of balance. Neither going too light but definitely not hard. Good back and forth, good flow, full speed but no where near full power, recognition of landed strikes, etc. victorsaravia_mtag_20190603084728.mp4

I've only been doing Muay Thai for three years (that's for my experience level). Seeing kids fighting with or without gear doesn't put me off - even if it looks like hard sparring and setting is odd, etc. I don't know the context of the video and I don't understand what the person filming is saying. I'm wondering what is the purpose of putting this video on the internet. I'm way more wary about kids simply being exposed out there, than about the fighting itself. I don't mind the fighting. As a matter of fact, the very first thought that crossed my mind watching this video was: "why the hell are they keeping their shoes on?"

I still get nervous in the last training sessions before any fight, because I think that how I "perform" there should be a copy of how I will perform in the ring. And I'm very often tired, sore, mentally fatigued, and hurt somewhere or many places. All of that comes with you into the ring, but you don't have to give it importance. To have doubt os very, VERY normal. You can fight against it, or you can fight with it there but it's not significant. Physical pain is the same. You can't "leave it at the door," as it will be in the ring with you, but you don't have to give it significance. "It hurts, but that doesn't MEAN anything." Remind her that she's already done the work. There's nothing more that needs to be done. Confidence is not first a feeling, it is first an action. If she's not feeling confident, fine - just ACT confident, whatever her version is, days and hours before climbing into the ring. Like putting on a coat. Those thoughts are just as real as her doubts; doubts, also, are only thoughts. They are no more real than self-belief. She has both, both can be real, but you have to breathe life into the one you want. Also, fights don't mean anything more than what happens during the minutes they are taking place. They do not determine ability, or worth. They determine if you like fighting or not.

It's not to far afield assessment. You can see it in general terms at a lot of clubs and gyms. The more genteel an environment a person comes from, the less comfortable they are with violence and the notion of getting hit, especially in the face. It's not always the case but from observations over the years it's an accurate one. Working class people generally don't react that way.The very notion of single shot death blows is far removed from reality and you can really only understand that viscerally if you come from a rough neighbourhood. Look at Alma Juniku for instance, she comes from Logan City. I don't know what suburb of Logan. I come from Logan. To most people from Logan, just merely existing is a daily fight. My point to that, is she feels it viscerally, instinctively that one shot does not make the kill. Such high and mighty deliberations on one shot kills can only ever be made by the rich, as they have the time to ponder such things. Here's a sad but funny anecdote on how people regard Logan City....... My son was out and about in Brisbane City. He starts up a conversation with a girl. She asks him where he comes from. He says Logan. The girl replies, don't people die in Logan?

(This is in reply to the discussion up the thread; didn’t manage a quote because I could not choose which one). In visual art there is most certainly an expectation that the poorer artist will be more “hungry”, “primitive”, “raw talent” & other patronizing terms. Add in race and you have Basquiat as the paradigmatic “poor genius” (meanwhile he was terrifically sophisticated & strategic). The rich artist on the other hand, is the “Sunday Painter” (the expression is an insult referring to dilettantism. It’s not that he only paints on Sunday because he works, quite the contrary, it’s that she only paints on Sunday cause she’s yachting & shopping the rest of the week). Because of mfa programs in the US, which are now legion & terrific money-makers for universities, art is now evermore a playground for the rich & it’s pretty disgusting. Columbia, where I taught a decade, costs @140k without housing etc. so you’re either rich, or your permanently in debt for an art degree. There are many interesting parallels with martial arts. The comfort with violence as a working class phenomenon has a relation to the common expectation that the artist be rough, drug addicted & possibly disturbed (like me as a kid lol). It’s a limiting thing, much like expecting a Thai fighter from the North to express him or herself in a non-intellectual (non-femeu) way.

Tying this to art is interesting in a few ways, both in that the poor artist had to have "patrons" who supported them - and sportsman have to have an audience and a camp - but also in that the rich practitioner/artist is able to devote himself due to his leisure. Listening to Joe Rogan, I'm always pretty surprised by how "good" a lot of these celebrity Jiu-jitsu players become, but then it's not that surprising at all when they have a lot of time to devote to it. It's not a "hobby" just because they're wealthy, but in a poor practitioner it's a kind of hunger because the way to "find time" to practice is to either devote yourself entirely and kind of let other responsibilities atrophy, or you're a "weekend warrior" because you have to work all the shifts, take care of all the kids, etc. A painter who can paint 20 hours a day is "better" than a painter who can paint 2 hours a day, and whether you're rich or poor doesn't make a difference other than how you go about having the time to dedicate yourself to it. In the world of Muay Thai in Thailand, this conversation becomes interesting because it used to be like Fighting Chickens, where a rich man would pay a trainer to take care of his chickens, like a patron. A gym supported the fighters so that they could fight. Introduce the affluent (relatively or directly) westerner who pays for training and over enough decades the patterns of the gym space actually change. In Pattaya this is distinct. Kru Nu is the head of the second oldest gym in Pattaya (behind Sityodthong) and holds a certificate that identifies him as a real traditional fighter's gym (of which there are only 2-3 left in Pattaya, despite the small city have TONS of gyms now), as opposed to a commercial business. Kru Nu's gym, Petchrungruang, is still a business. But it has a certificate from the Muay Thai Authority of Chonburi (our province) that identifies him as a different class than the newer gyms, which cater mainly to tourism... and have taxes and certificates from the Board of Tourism, rather than the Sport Authority. The tourist market allows gyms to cover their overhead and it puts much less pressure on the fighters of the gym to earn a living to support the whole operation. That's kind of good in ways. But it changes the priorities of the gym a lot, which I love about Petchrungruang because Kru Nu invites anyone and everyone to train the same way his real fighters do, but they're his priority. He's not catering to the guest, so to speak. The commercial gyms are doing much better, business-wise, and with money comes power and they can throw weight around for opportunities. Something a small gym can't necessarily do, but has very long-held connections with promoters and other gym owners (Thai and western, many of the western gym owners came through Kru Nu's gym at some point). Even Sityodthong, after the death of the absolute Legend founder, Master Yodthong, has completely changed now that it's under the management of his children, who grew up affluent.